Thom Hogan Declares D800 "Not Recommended"

<p>Wow. I really hope Nikon can fix this quickly........</p>

<p>"Thus, because of the apparent widespread nature of the problem and Nikon's response to it, I'm going to have to change my review to <strong>Not Recommended</strong>, and it will stay that way until such time as it becomes clear to me that all new cameras coming into the US are free of the left AF sensor programming problem."</p>

<p>My bet is on Nikon for this one.</p>

<p>BTW, is there a website I can go to?</p>

<p>I would like to buy Thom a beer, and encourage him to lighten up just a bit.</p>

<p>Are links here to Thom's site forbidden?</p>

<p>I looked all over for the original and couldn't find it. I don't doubt it's there, but I toured around his site for a while and nada - just older stuff saying how great the D800 was and selling me his book on the subject....</p>

<p>A more general Google only yielded this same post, this one here.</p>

<p>so I'd appreciate a link to see the whole statement, if that's possible.</p>

<p>Am I going to have to apologize to Maurice?</p>

<p>http://bythom.com/<br /> Center column, July 23. Maybe some readers need to clear their cache because this is new.</p>

<p>I don't know if links to other sites are taboo or not--my apologies in advance if they are:<br>

<a href="http://bythom.com/">http://bythom.com/ </a><br>

Look under "Quick Links & Comments."</p>

It's just a matter of time...it's not like there is another 36mp ff dslr, Nikon or otherwise. You either want it or don't, unlike the mirrorless

segment where there is a tight race with many contenders...

<p>Thanks - that additional info was what I needed to find it. I was getting buried in a long list of books, reviews, etc.</p>

<p>I'm going to hold off apologizing for a little while, but the full statement, especially the part about "internet amplification effect", is interesting and recommend looking at it.</p>

<p>If someone on the internet recommended against eating bacon would you become a vegetarian?</p>

<p>Do you have a clear understanding of your needs? Do you have faith in your ability to assess whether a piece of gear meets those needs? If so, why do you care what someone recommends and what they don't?</p>

<p>Per the (non) recommendation - I agree that for a lot of people it's probably not the right camera. If you're a casual shooter, it's probably not the right camera. If you have limited skills but want to take nice photos of your kids, it's probably not the right camera. If you want "ooh, ahh" reactions from other photographers, it's probably not the right camera (get the E instead - it will enhance the exaltation). </p>

<p>For a lot of other people it's a really GREAT camera. But those people should decide for themselves whether it's the <em>RIGHT</em> camera.</p>

<p>Avoiding a camera model because someone on the Internet suggests that it's not the right gear for you - not recommended.</p>

<p>Dan +1</p>

<p>It's a much more qualified than a blanket "not recommended", if you read the whole updated review. http://bythom.com/nikond800review.htm (excluding the somewhat infrequent AF problem).<br>

His statement " <strong>They are not cameras for everyone, however.</strong> " is also much more explanatory if you read and understand his whole review from start to finish.<br>

Again, maybe he is right, and I should just order a Pentax 645D instead at 3x the price. :)<br>

Dan +1 as well</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I don't know about this particular case with the D800, but there is value to information sharing whether from a prolific writer or group forum discussion. While there can be as much consensus as controversy, the end decision should be made by an individual through critical analysis as technical matters should be fact-based and not perception-based. </p>

<p>Dan, I wouldn't really consider Thom to be just "someone on the internet," he's IMHO one of the leading authorities/experts on Nikon cameras and lenses. He changed his opinion on the D800 from "highly recommended" to "not recommended" not because of the features or specs of the the D800 but because of the consistent incidence of problems with the D800's left AF sensor. It's a specific problem/flaw (that will hopefully be corrected quickly by Nikon) not a matter of whether the D800 is the "right" camera for someone's needs.</p>

<p>I tend to side with Dan on this. Last year I bought two D300s refurb bodies over the D7000, even though there were so many comments on how much better the D7000 ISO and IQ are. But when I saw that the D7000 had the same dial on the upper left for presets as my D70s that I so often nudged just at the wrong time, I knew I was not going there. Also, the fast AF, frame rate and big cache of the D300s made me go with it. I'm incredibly impressed with this body. Yes, evaluate your needs and make your decision bases on that, and take other people's judgements with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>I do agree with Lisa. Dan, Thom is not saying "don't buy this camera"; that is our personal decision if we do or don't. Read the article before answering or are you one that only talk and talk. If you believe you know better than him, why don't you investigate and test the camera and come up with something different ? Be more professional and proactive ! He is a Nikon expert and well known in the world as such. He has been testing the camera, spend a lot of time with Japan Nikon to find out how the problem can be fixed or if we are to expect the same with the upcoming D600/D400 but Nikon continues to keep silence about it. Is that the right way to treat your customers ? No it is not, so I do understand why he is saying and agree with what he is saying 100%. That is his personal opinion and we should respect that. </p>

<p>I am well aware that over on DPReview's Nikon Fourms, the D800 AF issue, especially concerning the left AF points, have been discussed to no end since April. However, here on this very Nikon Forum, I don't recall reading all that many complaints about it.</p>

<p>As a lot of people know, I received a D800 from Nikon USA for testing in late March. I then ordered a D800E for myself in mid April. That camera arrived in mid June. I had that D800 for about three months and my own D800E for just over a month, and by the time I got my D800E in June, I was well aware of the "left AF point issue" and therefore tested very thoroughly immediately. Both cameras are as perfect as they can be. Searching complaints on this forum:</p>

<ul>

<li>I noticed a couple of complaints on sensor defects: <a href="../nikon-camera-forum/00aDCK">Problem with d800</a>, from <a name="00aDCK"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=317238">Marko Simic</a> and <a name="00aWK3"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=7156486">Amero Bob</a></li>

<li>I am sure a lot of you remember <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=488147">James Symington</a>'s complaints about using Zeiss ZF lenses on his D800E: <a href="00abj9">D800/E and Carl Zeiss lenses</a> and <a href="00acWi">Nikon D800E manual lens focus problem - flange distance of 46.67mm</a></li>

<li>Related to that, <a name="00abJI"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5147471">Shiang Wang</a> has problems about <a href="00abJI">D800 with MF lenses</a></li>

</ul>

<p>Interestingly, I have not found one person complaining about AF problems with the D800 on this forum, and I know quite a few of us have bought the D800/D800E already. If that left AF point issue is indeed wide spread, I would expect quite a few complaints about it already. On this forum, there is a lot of here say, repeating what people read else where. But very few people here experience those problems themselves.</p>

<p>In comparison, there are a lot of complaints about D7000 AF errors and D300 problems. But of course, my D300 and D7000 are as perfect as they can be too. I simply have lots of luck receiving good-out-of-the-box Nikon equipment.</p><div></div>

<p>like Shun, I also have both the 800 and the 800e and I too don't have any left side focusing issues. Maybe we are just lucky. </p>

 

<p>Lisa, et al.,</p>

<p>I know who Thom is. I've read his site for years because I respect his opinion. In most cases I have found myself agreeing with his positions.</p>

<p>I read his review of the D800 and his follow up posts days before this discussion materialized, so I know exactly what was said. And he said quite a bit.</p>

<p>Ultimately, we need to make our own decisions regardless of what anyone on the Internet says - this site, other well-known review sites, our favorite photographer, our favorite blogger, or customer feedback at retailers. Regardless of how reliable or respected a reviewer is, we have to recognize that they are a different person with different needs and preferences.</p>

<p>Should buyers avoid the D800 because of comments that they've read online? Should buyers ORDER a D800 because of comments that they've read online? Or should they do their own research and buy/use gear that matches their needs and budget, even if that means getting together with someone who owns the gear already and trying it out for an afternoon?</p>

<p>Final responsibility rests with the user. When users abdicate that responsibility they end up feeling frustrated and disillusioned with the product and the manufacturer. And that ends up leading to more Internet chatter, some percentage of which isn't very reliable at all.</p>

 

<p>Just for the record my retailer switched my D800E, which clearly had some flange to focal plane issue and meant that all my ZFs focused beyond infinity to an unacceptable extent, with another one where this issue is all but gone. Now two of my ZFs hit infinity bang on the hard stop and the other two very very slightly out. Given that Nikon UK had taken in my original D800E 3 times because of this and claimed it was fine shows what kind of tolerance they have - or indeed a potential purchaser has to have.<br>

For sure the D800/E is a really finicky camera to focus well - much much more so than a D700 - and this makes it even less of an everyday camera. I used to use my D3 and D700 for photographing everything but the size of files and criticality of spot-on focusing means that I will only use it for landscapes whereas photographing the children is for my X100 and new RX100 (which is amazing incidentally).</p>

<p>I understand Hogan`s statement, but in the other hand, recommended or not by him, I still think it`s the best Nikon camera ever.</p>

<p>Dan -- the problem with dismissing the idea that we should be affected by our research you're fundamentally making an impossible argument. Think of the books you've read, the films you've seen, because of someone else's recommendation. It's the critic's job to be <em>convincing</em>. So either you can say the critic has no standing -- as if it were Justin Bieber talking, and you say simply, this is a cretin and he knows nothing about photography -- or, if you wish to dismiss the argument publicly, you have to make a convincing, informed argument against it. Shun did this quite well -- although, Shun, dude, did it ever occur to you Nikon's making sure you get the good stuff? Not, as Seinfeld used to say, that there's anything wrong with that... Anyway Shun was quite convincing, I thought. My immediate reaction to TH was that he was being a bit of a drama queen, embarrassed that he'd endorsed the camera when so many were finding problems. If the AF has a problem, Nikon will fix it. This camera has excited more photographers than any release that I know of since the M9. (Don't start with Leica. I'm only sayin'...) Before that, likely the D3. OK, maybe the 5D Mkii, after they filmed an episode of House with it. And of course I'm skipping the m4/3 wunderkinds... basically because they bore me. But those Fuji's sure got people excited. Anyway you know what i mean. This -- the D800 -- is much more a groundbreaking camera. If there's a problem Nikon will fix it. They have a lot riding on it. So I agree with you that TH is not on target here; but being (at one time) a critic myself, I of course think it's too easy, and inaccurate, to say, 'we don't have to listen to anybody.' We have -- for our own good -- to listen to the people who are generally correct. And be confident about pointing out when they're not. </p>

<p>For anyone who has experienced first-hand the Japanese cultural phenomenon of denying mistakes (or manufacturing defects), you understand how maddening it can be to know with certainty that there is a serious issue with a high-priced item only to have the manufacturer and its reps tell you that there is not. I have a certain Japnese automobile company in mind as I write this.</p>

<p>The question is not *if* there is an issue, the questions are how many cameras are so affected, when is Nikon going to admit it and what are they going to do about it.</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"Japanese cultural phenomenon of denying mistakes (or manufacturing defects)"</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Howard, painting broad strokes without factual support in this specific instance isn't very helpful. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>I understand Hogan`s statement, but in the other hand, recommended or not by him, I still think it`s the best Nikon camera ever.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree - but to some extent the demanding nature of the D800/D800E in terms of lenses, technique and the sheer file size it pumps out has made it into much more of specialised tool than any DSLR Nikon has produced before.<br />Would I recommend the camera to your average amateur photographer who only wants one camera to do everything? I really don't think so. Not because of its quality as an instrument but because of the nature of such a camera.<br />To make the D800/D800E really reach its true potential you need to be highly fastidious (a trait of most of the people who would actually be reading this thread - myself very much included). What I learned from the first few minutes of using my D800E is that the tiniest focusing error ruins your shot in a way that the D700/D3 simply did not.<br />So Thom I think makes a good point when he does what he did - if Nikon want to play in medium format territory then they have to up their game in terms of QC as well as after-sales support and service. Otherwise you will end up with a bunch of demanding photographers who are seeing things they shouldn't be seeing in an expensive camera and getting really rather annoyed about it - like I was.</p>

<p>I received my D800 last week. I must have ordered one 6 times since the camera was announced and cancelled 5 because of all the 'chatter' about the AF issue and green cast monitor. The 2nd thing I checked was the AF on the left side (the AF of the center point was my first test). My body focuses perfectly. The colors on my monitor are extremely accurate and do not have any color issues of any kind. My D800 functions perfectly. With regards to AF, it is the best I have used when it comes to speed and accuracy (but I don't necessarily like the D7000 AF selector vs the D3's).</p>

<p>I fully agree with Dan's comments.</p>

<p><em>"</em><em>what are they going to do about it"</em> If you receive a camera that is not functioning properly, you can return it to the selling dealer for an exchange or refund or Nikon will correct it under the terms of their warranty. What more would you like them to do?</p>