Thinking about getting a Leica III...

<p>Hiya,</p>

<p>I want to get a very compact, discreet, completely manual camera and having done a little research, I think the best thing for me would be a Leica IIIc with a 50mm Elmar f3.5 lens. The things I'm a tad unsure about are:</p>

<ul>

<li>Is a IIIf really worth the extra money?</li>

<li>Does the red dial IIIf have a better/more durable shutter?</li>

<li>What about Contax/other rangefinders of that era?</li>

<li>And finally, are there any really annoying things about the IIIc which might put me off?</li>

</ul>

<p>If anyone posting here lives in England, advice as to where I could a good deal would also be appreciated.</p>

<p>Cheers</p>

 

<p>The IIIc is a fine camera. The only great advantage of the IIIf is built-in flash synchronization capability. The Red dial version will synchronize electronic flash at higher shutter speeds, though still slow by modern standards. The only problems that I have with my IIIc/f is erratic shutter speeds which requires a regular CLA. </p>

<p>Flash doesn't matter to me, so that's no issue.</p>

<p>In reverse order .... try<em> <a href="http://www.mwclassic.com">MW Classic</a> </em> in London for affordable Barnacks.</p>

<p>Annoying things about a IIIc? - mostly the poor chromework on early models. Shutters? According to Peter Grisaffi at CRR, the IIIf has slightly thinner curtains than earlier models and these are a <em>bit </em> more prone to having pinholes after prolonged use. In my experience, the r/f mirrors in the IIIf (black & red dials) <em>can be</em> significantly dimmer than in earlier variants.</p>

<p>A clean, unmarked camera in good working condition is really worth the <em>extra money</em> , whether it's a II, or IIIf. Similarly, any '<em>extra'</em> , extra money is always best spent on a CLA, whatever the camera, IMO. I just had a newly purchased, <em>very smart</em> Leica II (cheap & in need of a service) CLA'd by Peter at CRR; it's now <em>absolutely sweet</em> , m-u-c-h nicer than a IIIf serviced by someone else.</p>

<p>My favourite remains my IIIb, but it competes with my IIIf RD) for 'top-dog' status, and now the 'new girl'. The one thing I don't believe is worth the extra money is the delayed action. but it depends on the individual's preferences. If you want a 'cool' camera, black paint Leica III's are not horribly expensive ... just expensive, but are really nice cameras once CLA'd.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>A 3.5 elmar is pretty decent optic with slightly old fashioned charactoristics. The diaphragm is quirky as you probably know.<br>

Get a coated one. 35 mm accesories can be put on with a 36/39 clamp adapter which allows you to use things like the vented shade. Otherwise the 50/90/135 shade works well and the 50 mm clamp on is smaller but satistactory. I suppose someone else has the part numbers if you need them.</p>

<p>I would not go nuts over the ball bearing shutter new in the red dial 111F. Black dials are old bearings. Either will out live us.</p>

<p>The real problem I have encountered with both a IIIC & IIIF is pin holes and banding streaks. Both cameras required muiltiple shutter curtain replacements to get them to work. The F was with the best Leica man in the counrty and he could not get it. The C was done by the retired owner of International Camera Repair in Chicago. It went back to him three times and he never got it. The banding shows as horizontal light/dark bands at higher speed, 1/250 and up. Both went to Mark Hama in a Atlanta had he fixed both with new curtains again and both now work properly. This whole ordeal was unpleasent and I now have more $ in them than they are worth by far. However they are near mint samples and are a joy to use now that they are working properly.</p>

<p>The rubber cloth material in the curtains is 50+ years old and rubber dereriorates with age. Look at a new Leica to see what new curtains should look like. They are flat, taught, and wrinkle-wave free. You can`t see pin holes on a screw mount camera.</p>

<p>111C is made for longer film spools and if a modern factory loaded cassette is used, the film can sag a few mm. F`s have a lug in the base to hold film up and the base will not transfer to a C. The image area is still printable, just shifted a bit.<br>

The cure is a small cardboard washer around the spool point in the base of the C. This holds the film up. The better cure is the brass Leica film cassettes which open in camera and there is no felt to drag the film thru. M cassettes are hard to find and are backward compatable. Screw mt ones will not fit an M. They can be loaded in early Watsons or other loaders or with a bench winder in a dark room or the hand winder. See Tom Abrahamsons video on UTube.</p>

<p>I never buy factory loaded film, color or B&W.</p>

<p>Contax have really quirky shutters few are qualified to repair for whch parts are probably not easily found. I am not a Contax expert. You can find some on the Rangefinder Forum.</p>

<p>111F have a flash sync.</p>

<p>Load both by cutting an elongated film leader. There are other ways to get it to thread, but there are problems with any other solution, business card and opening the shutter on T and forcing it up.</p>

<p>Good luck in your quest.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Max:<br>

This is very much a personal preference thing. I happen to like the IIIf and, better still, the IIIg best. Especially because the g has a much improved 50/90 viewfinder. But the IIIc can be very nice too, if it is in good mechanical condition.<br>

A couple of things to consider: The c will be a much older camera, manufactured from 1940 to '51 I think, while the f and g were built up to 1957 and 1960, respectively (age and repair issues). Be sure to check the rangefinder mirrors for clarity and brightness in any thread mount leica. parts are scarce if is dark or fogged. All the early leicas have no brightlines in the viewfinder and are only suited for use with a 50mm lens unless you use separate VF. Only the IIIg has a viewfinder comparable to Leica M, with brightlines for 50 and 90. Its an easier VF to see with too, as compared to the earlier Leicas. One advantage of the shutter in the IIIf Red Dial and IIIg is that they use more "modern" shutter speeds. and with the IIIg the shutter speeds finally conform to current camera shutters (1/15, 1/30/, 1/60, 1/125 etc.) The older shutter timings take a little getting used to.<br>

To me, the later versions are definitely worth the extra money. IIIg's used to be very expensive because of the collector market, but they have come down considerably in the US - I don't know about England pricing, though. I have a IIIg with collapsible 50 summicron that is very pleasant to use and gives excellent results.</p>

<p>I know I'll only ever want the one 50mm collapsible elmar for this camera, and I really can't afford a g, but I'll see about the f. I would rather have one than a c.<br>

If I can't find a coated one, won't a UV filter do the job instead?</p>

<p>Thanks for the MW recommendation, they have funny pricing, but a IIIf, which looks in good condition, for 179quid!!</p>

<p>Though I can't afford an M leica, and am quite interested to try a Barnack one anyway, what would I get with something like an M3 which I wouldn't with this? Is it really THAT much better?</p>

<p>Just for the heck of it, perhaps you would like to read my take on the IIIf:</p>

<p><a href="../columns/joshroot/filmtown/2009/january/leica-IIIf-fuji-provia-100f"> <img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8615188-sm.jpg" alt="" width="100" /> </a><br>

<a href="../columns/joshroot/filmtown/2009/january/leica-IIIf-fuji-provia-100f">Leica IIIf & Fuji Provia 100F</a> (Filmtown January 2009)</p>

<p>Thanks for the article and all the help :)<br>

One thing I'm not getting, is why you can't just use the rangefinder view as a viewfinder as well? Eh?</p>

<blockquote>

<p>One thing I'm not getting, is why you can't just use the rangefinder view as a viewfinder as well? Eh?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Because the RF window is highly magnified. It's FOV is probably the same as that of 150 or 200 mm lens. This is great for focusing accuracy, not so great for use as a viewfinder.</p>

<p>IIf with coated 50mm Elmar proved handy and discreet to me. I'd stick with Leica because of avalibility of parts and service and re-sale value. But Kodak Retina series is pretty close competition for good images in my experience. I don't know if I would care to place a bet on the best of images from my Lecia IIf and my Kodak IIc. I don't know if M series is "better," it's different. It is a bigger heavier camera. Different range of lenses.<br>

I don't know if any Leica shutters are 100% light tight when changing lenses under a sunny sky. You can test the condition of the curtains by removing the lens and systematically working the film through the camera to expose it to direct sun light under one curtain and then the other. This method should point out pin holes.</p>

<p>Ahh, now that makes sense. I can't really imagine why they'd change it with the Ms so that they were in the same finder, but hey.</p>

<p>Alan, why the IIIb in particular? Weren't they less tough before the c?</p>

<p>Max, I'm not in England, but www.apertureuk.com may be worthwhile (they had some not inexpensive IIIgs in their December 2008 ad in "B&W Photography", but I saw no IIIa,b,c or f's). They are at 44 Museum Street in London.</p>

<p>They also sell Voigtlander-Cosina Bessa's (relatively inexpensive modern, meter included RF cameras) with Leica LTM and M mounts. A black model (R2 to R4) is quite discreet. I have a used IIIf (apparently refitted at Leitz in the early 50s from an earlier III series) and it is very compact and silent, but its chrome finish is not all that discreet.</p>

<p>Although Leitz build quality is great, all III series except the IIIg have quite small (squinty) viewfinders for 50mm lenses, which also means separate VF's for other lenses, whereas the Voigtlanders Bessas are fitted with several finder frames within larger size and magnification VFs. The shutters are a little noisy and the build quality is not like Leica, but this is not always a concern, especially as you are not faced with immediate cleaning and adjustment as might occur with a used III you purchase.</p>

<p>A good thing to do is to place a WTB ad on Photo.Net and mention you are in England. I have sold from Canada to England and insured transport has always been under $100 CAN (about 60 pounds) at the most.</p>

<p>Hi Max, I live in London. I am thinking of getting rid of my Leica III, Summitar 5cm F2 (collapsible) with yellow filter, Leica case, viewfinder, complete manual in PDF format. It is in what I would call mint condition and I bought it from Ivor Matanle (very knowlegable Leica man) who has written a few books on the topic. In fact my Leica appears as images in one of his camera books. I know its not an F, and I am not desperate to sell it, but if you're interested shoot me an email and we can talk.</p>

<p>Another option is to buy an old FED with Jupiter lens. This will give you a good go at rangefinders. I bought a FED2 off ebay for £11, and a Jupiter 8 lens for £10. Not bad. I think MW Classic in London are okay. I did drive from West London across to them in East London one Friday afternoon to look at a lens which they assured me was perfect, or at least fully functional. When I got there an hour and 15 minutes later and looked at the lens, the aperture ring wouldn't budge. No apologies, just said to come back next week after they had it serviced. It was meant to be a bargain at £130. Next morning got up at around 6:30 and went to Portobello Road market. One of the camera stalls opened up and he had the Summitar I now own, knocked down from £120 to £100 in about 20 seconds. Very nice lens and cheaper than any shop.</p>

<p>Good luck with whatever decisision you make.</p>

<p>Max, MWC's pricing does float around a bit, so look closely at the photos (adjust 'levels; to see into the shadows, etc). Some are commission sales. Almost all of my Barnacks (too many) have come from MWC, none with significant problems.</p>

<p>I nearly bought that IIIf at £179, but chose a tidier one for £20 more, though I'll have the rf mirror replaced on that before too long. The black II (currently there) is cheap - subject to hands-on inspection - if you can live with a front mounted (non-original) flash socket. NB: EU consumer law says, if you don't want/like a mailorder purchase you can send it back.</p>

<p>I understand that the later models are 'tougher' than early ones, but I have not heard or read of any <em>significant </em> practical issues. It's never bothered me.</p>

<p>Feature-wise the IIIb is sorta transitional, though the only noticeable difference compared to the IIIa is that it has the close-together vf/rf of the later models, and the diopter adjustment is under the rewind button: it also has nice little knobby button on the diopter lever which is easier to use than the flat lever on the c & f ... Picky, picky!</p>

<p>I know just the place you mean Arthur, Museum Street is crammed with camera shops. I've already checked their website, and they've got a couple of IIIGs, but they're about 700 or so, which is way out of my range.</p>

<p>Thanks David, but I really would prefer a C or later, considering how old these things are, any supposed extra build quality strikes me as important. I'd not thought of Portobello Market. I'll definitely give that a look, just the kind of place you might strike a real bargain, though I'd really rather be buying from a retailer where I feel more sure that the camera/lens I'm getting is in full working order.<br>

Thanks for all the advice/help.<br>

Alan, do they often get Fs in at that sort of price? I can't actually do the purchase for a couple of months and I'd be quite annoyed if this meant I was losing a great bargain.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the help</p>

<p>The other question you should ask yourself is, why do you want a III anyway? Is there something that the III will provide that a Voigtlander R would not provide for you? Those R's can be had for a song these days. And in many ways, they are the best screw mount option out there.</p>

<p>Oh, forgot to mention, why do some IIIs have a red shutter?</p>

<p>I can recommend any III from the IIIa on. Any of them will have had multiple CLA's by now, and probably multiple shutter curtain replacements. I really wouldn't want to be without the 1/1000 shutter speed when using ISO 400 film, so that's why I exclude the III.<br>

The IIIa is a tad lighter than the IIIc and later. It's a little less rigid, I wouldn't use it with a 50/1.2 or 85/1.5 lens. Also, the two windows on the back are further apart. The IIIa can also be even cheaper than a IIIc. There's no ball bearings in a IIIa, and minimal curtain brakes, so perhaps the shutter isn't the ne-plus-ultra in accuracy, but that doesn't really matter.<br>

Consider a CLA every 5 years as just part of the running cost. Should cost less than the film used over the same period.<br>

The banding problem mentioned by Ronald is bad workmanship in replacing shutter curtains. The edges must be very smooth, otherwise at high speeds (where the slit width is very narrow), the roughness of the edges becomes a signifcant fraction of the total slit width. There is no excuse for such bad workmanship, and with two expert Leica repair sites in the UK, should not be a problem for you.</p>

<p>I'm definitely not getting anything before the IIIc, shan't budge on that one. Could you give me the web address of these Leica repair sites?</p>

<p>And I'll give the Voigtlander R a look, but I'm guessing that a) it won't be nearly as neat as a III with a collapsible 50mm b) harder to get repairs. But I'll look it up.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>a) it won't be nearly as neat as a III with a collapsible 50mm</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Could be. That has a lot to do with your defination of "neat". Swing back loading, internal meter, lever advance, lever rewind, actual framelines, etc are just a few of the "neat" aspects of the R. Now, using one is nothing like the experience of using a LTM Leica. So if that experience is what you are after, don't bother with the R. But if you are looking for an economical thread mount body that will excell at making images, the R is a great bet.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>b) harder to get repairs</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I've never tried to get one repaired. But given that the same basic internals of the R are used in millions of low cost SLR's, the RF is used in a number of other Voigtlander Bessa RF's, and the cameras are less than 10 years old, I would say that getting one repaired won't be an issue. But I could be wrong.</p>

<p>Ahh, mad as it sounds, I really don't want any sort of metering. Think it's a good idea to learn what's appropriate in different lighting myself rather than let a machine tell me what's right. Also, there is something in me that really would just LIKE to have one.</p>

<p>Fine reasons for getting a III. I just wanted to see if you had any or just were grabbing on the the LTM Leicas because they were a budget RF.</p>

<p>And one final thing, how often am I gonna need to be getting this thing checked-up/repaired, and how much is this likely to be costing me, presuming I get a camera and lens in good condition which doesn't need any repair?</p>

<p>Last year I bought my first Leica, a IIIf and a 50 Elmar for 500$. A CLA and shutter replacement (pinholes) cost 120$. I still need to restore the finders and have the lens CLA'd, but it is useable as it is now . My IIIf is a very clean user and the lens a 1948 coated one with a some fine cleaning marks on the front element but otherwise clear and clean. I carry it everywhere, fits in jeans pockets, light jacket Great for casual candid photography. I like the lens and like the camera. I can understand why you would "just LIKE to have one" That's a good enough reason. It was mine, too.</p>

<p>I bought mine at KEH.</p>

<p> </p>