The trouble with TFP (with interior designers, anyways)

I'm currently studying photography in a BA program at City College of

NY, and I've been trying to get some work on the side through

craigslist to build up an area of my book that's a bit thin (interiors).

 

The way I've been structuring it is that I waive my day rate and they

only pay for gear rental and materials costs. The problem arises when

I deliver the estimate for how much that costs-- from $300-$500

including processing.

 

Part of the problem is that I don't have all my own equipment that's

geared towards interiors-- my current setup is a mamiya 7 with an 80,

and a rb67 with a 90 and a polaroid back. I'd use the RB, but finding

someplace to rent a 50 or the 75 shift for the RB has proven

difficult. So I have to end up renting a whole outfit (4x5 or gx680),

plus supplemental lighting which I definitely don't have. Plus then

there's the cost of polaroids and chromes for both daylight and

tungsten. By the time I'm done (and even without the modest 10% markup

I was considering) the costs are really getting up there.

 

The people who have contacted me through my ad on craigslist (which

says "AT COST") are just starting out themselves and obviously have no

idea what it costs to hire a photographer-- even without factoring in

a day rate!

 

How should I best structure this or advertise better so that I can not

have designers wimp out on me when they get a cost estimate? They

don't realize they're *still* getting a better deal than hiring a pro?

 

Another part of the problem is the market saturation in NYC for

aspiring photogs-- one lady said she'd had 100 emails in response to

an ad to do a multi-room shoot for $150 with no other fees or costs. I

tried explaining to her the value of a professional job by someone who

knows what he's doing (I know McGrath backwards and forwards,

practically), on professional materials and with professional

equipment. Should I just rent an EOS A2 and the 24 T/S, some 35mm RTP

and be done with it? I don't see how anyone comes out satisfied with

that.

 

Frustrated and trying to build my book,

--Josh

<p>First let me say I feel your pain, Josh.</p>

<p>Secondly, Craigslist is great, but keep in mind these people a) get swamped with

emails, and b) they are only looking for CHEAP LABOR. Scrapin' the bottom of the

barrel pricewise.</p><p>As another "struggling photographer" in NYC, I have had

some success with Craigslist, but not a whole lot. Maybe we can get together and

share sob

stories over a drink. Ha.</p>

<p>My suggestions for an architectual photographer are twofold: 1. Shoot your book

on your own. Find places you want to shoot, get access (with free images if needed),

bite the bullet to rent what you need, and make some killer images. 2. Take those

killer images and go see all the archictects in the city. Architecture firms are the ones

who will pay top dollar for good photographers. For good measure, make some

postcards or leave-behinds and mail them out to interior designers too.</p>

<p>If you still want to do low budget stuff, then yeah, shoot it on 35mm Fuji NPS

(gets the "green" out of flourescents, lower contrast than chrome) or better yet digital

(auto white balance baby!), available light only, and give the client 4x6's or a CD.

Yuck.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

Not really wanting to drop precipitation on the procession here . . .

 

Did you ever think that your costs would be more in line with their expectations if you had the proper equipment? I'm not saying you have to go buy it, but you're advertising a service for which you are not equipped and passing ALL that cost at once onto the customer, thereby inflating your prices past what is probably reasonable.

 

look at it this way, if you didn't have to go out and rent equipment, what would you be charging?

 

There's no easy answer to this, although you got some good advice above. If you're pointing out to people that you're a professional, you had better be prepared to back that up by showing that you maintain the proper equipment necessary to get the job done (specialty lighting, no, but a body or lens?, definitely).

<i> So I have to end up renting a whole outfit (4x5 or gx680) </i><p>

 

Why not rent lenses for your RB? <p>

 

<i> The problem arises when I deliver the estimate for how much that costs-- from $300-

$500 including processing. </i><p>

 

Why not rent an EOS 1Ds with wideangle and TS lenses? <p>

 

<i> I'm currently studying photography in a BA program at City College of N </i><p>

 

What are other students doing? Are they pooling equipment? did you ask for advice from

any of your instructors? Can any of them lend you gear?

Hmmmn, I submitted a response earlier that didn't seem to show up on the board.

 

All points well taken,

 

TOM: agreed about craigslist--now finally realizing this about the place.

 

KIETH: The biggest expense item wasn't really the camera gear-- it was the strobe gear, but even more than that it was the expendables and processing-- especially WRT polaroids (is there a tungsten-balanced pack film? Can't find polacolor 64 anymore...). I could see eating the cost of camera rental, but I have a feeling that I'm still outside the range of what these "bottom-feeder" clients are willing to spend. I didn't give the client a breakdown of what their money was paying for-- don't know if that would have helped or hurt in this situation.

 

Z: Nobody rents lenses for RB. All the shops I've polled in NYC only do RZ gear. A 1DS goes for 300 daily, *plus* the PC lenses. A D30 goes for just $200/day. And let's not forget about a laptop to view proofs. No bargains to be found on that front. Plus there's the issue of multipliers, not helpful for extreme wide angles often necessary for interiors.

 

Most other students in my program have no conception of what the real world is like. My more commercial-leaning lighting professor says I can troll through the yellow pages and pick out the small interior design shops with small budgets and plead my case with them, and hope they bite without seeing a book.

 

Tom's answer seems to be the best route I can think of, unfortunately-- paying for the damn shots myself. How depressing.

<i> Nobody rents lenses for RB. All the shops I've polled in NYC only do RZ gear. </i><p>

 

Really? I thought that Lens & Repro did. They must have stopped. (I know that they dumped

sales of several 35mm brands recently in a housecleaning.) <p>

 

<i> A 1DS goes for 300 daily, *plus* the PC lenses. A D30 goes for just $200/day. And let's

not forget about a laptop to view proofs. No bargains to be found on that front. Plus there's

the issue of multipliers </i><p>

 

The 1Ds is a full-frame camera that doesn't have any multipliers. <p>

 

Given a very limited budget, I'd suggest that you borrow equipment and find sites to shoot

on your own. If you really need s specific lens, there are certain stores which let you buy

wth a return policy ... but you can't take them up on that offer more than a couple of times.

You could always shoot (for free or for film/print costs) for real estate agents, which would

save them money and gain you entry into private residences. <p>

 

<i> Most other students in my program have no conception of what the real world is like.

My more commercial-leaning lighting professor says I can troll through the yellow pages

and pick out the small interior design shops with small budgets and plead my case with

them, and hope they bite without seeing a book. </i><p>

 

So try your professor's advice ... and hit him up for gear. If the students you know aren't

doing anything, it still doesn't stop you from borrowing equipment from them... or getting

to know students from other schools in the same situation as you, like at SVA.

"I could see eating the cost of camera rental, but I have a feeling that I'm still outside the range of what these "bottom-feeder" clients are willing to spend. I didn't give the client a breakdown of what their money was paying for-- don't know if that would have helped or hurt in this situation."

 

 

 

As you continue your education, you will have to learn the phrase "I regret that I cannot do the job at the price offered." The 'bottom feeders' are more knowledgeable than you think. That is why they are trying to get you (and not a professional photographer) to get some images for them to use. Someday, you will have a studio, business license, and clients -- then you will have the fun of watching a few clients 'run' to a kid in college with their 'low ball' business.

 

 

 

Sometimes you have to say 'pass' on a job. Give the prospective customer a written estimate and if he balks, then no pain.

Z:

I stand corrected about the multiplier on the 1Ds (was looking at viewfinder magnification, which made no sense anyways). Still 3 big ones to rent for a day.

 

The real estate angle is a good one and one I hadn't considered.

 

My prof is more of a fashion and tabletop guy; plus he's really stingy about even equipment that isn't his own (e.g. the school's). Doubt he'd let me near any of his stuff.

 

SVA, Parsons, FIT, Pratt, et al are the COMPETITION in my case. And not know to be the friendliest bunch. (I know this is excessively judgemental on my part, but we aren't exactly hosting monthly mixers or anything, though if I have my way that'll change next year-- trying to convince my dept to help organize a "Student Photo Week 2005", perhaps to coincide with AIPAD, where all the photo schools in NY would host shows simultaneously and get real publicity, get the art dealers and buyers in the galleries, etc)) My original point is that it ain't so easy making friends with the downtown hipsters when I go to school in Harlem, especially when we'll be fighting over the same assistantships and clients over the next few years.

 

GERALD: I'm sure I'll appreciate your perspective when I'm a bit farther down the road, but for the moment I need to kick-start my cash flow while building my book in my area of interest (i.e., not weddings).

 

Thanks, as always!

I have a feeling that you're going to have to bite the bullet on this one, or at least nibble on the bullet for a while.

 

What's you're running into is a sort of It-Takes-Money-To-Make-Money issue. You need a good portfolio to attract the type of client who can afford to pay for the quality of photos found in your portfolio. What this means, unfortunately, is that you may have to invest your own money into that portfolio. And, yes, as it is what will bring in future clients, money spent on your portfolio is an investment.

 

The good news is that you don't have to do it all at once. A portfolio is a living object that grows with along with you. As you get better and better clients, your portfolio will get better as well. The key is to stay ahead of the portfolio and its costs by producing quality photographs.

 

What is means is that you may have to spend some time being the best of the bottom-feeders. You may have to work more cheaply than you would like in order to have enough photos of high enough quality to show that you could do even more amazing work with proper equipment and more experience. You may have to sift through email from 100 people only willing to pay $150. Or maybe you will sift through 10 emails from people willing to pay $250.

 

So that's that for general advice. I know it's frustrating, but that's what they call paying your dues. Specifically, I would recommend taking advantage of weekend rentals. Usually, you get Friday afternoon through Monday morning for the price of 1 day, so if you can fill a weekend with, say, 5 $150 clients (1 Friday and 2 each Saturday and Sunday) you'll make plenty enough to rent a 1Ds and the 24mm f3.5 L TS-E from Adorama ($325) and whatever lighting you'll need. It's just a matter of quantity.

 

Good luck! Brian

BRIAN: That nicely sums things up for me. Maybe it's time to tap into the ultimate American credit line: First National Bank of Dad! shopping list: omega 4x5 + appropriate manfrotto, 90 grandagon-N MC, 545/405, brown line D1604 + misc heads etc, compendium, gels, grads, et al. Hmmmn.. Dad might not like that idea-- maybe the SBA?

 

On a sidenote: I wish there were 100 clients at $150 each! Unfortunately, there there 100 wannabe photographers and only three fifties to go around.

 

Also, the weekend rental deal is another good strategy, if I can a) get the clients and b) coordinate the schedules right.

 

.

.

.

 

 

Maybe I should just go back to my "photos for personal ads" racket-- at least I'm equipped for that! :-P

You know, the first time I heard of "photos for personal ads" I thought it was a joke. Then I saw some online personal ads. They really need photographers...

Believe it or not, I ran into the same problem with the personals photos-- first, recognizing the need for quality work, second, the stupidity of my advertising only on craigslist, and finally, the glut in NYC of $75-100 headshot photographers! How on earth can they afford to maintain the studios they claim to have? It's beyond me. But in any case, off to Quark to lay out some *gasp* fliers for the bus shelters. Now I just need to find the right neighborhoods-- the ones full of rich divorcees... :)

<p>Brian makes some good points - take advantage of weekend

rentals, and your portfolio will grow with successive shoots. The

weekend is nice also because many commercial spaces are

empty on the weekends. Just a thought.</p>

<p>I wanted to suggest also that you sell the RB (can't rent

lenses for it anyway) and the Mamiya 7. Use the cash to get a

4x5, a 90mm and a 150mm, and start building your portfolio.

Maybe Dad will help out with this if he sees you are serious

enough to sell some of your gear to get your career pointed in

the right direction.</p>

<p>Also, you might try to get an internship with Esto: http://

www.esto.com/home.htm</p>

It seems that you have chosen your specialty: INTERIORS. From your message I see a few issues:

 

1) You have two cameras and two lenses but, both are "wrong" for what YOU want to do. How come that choice? For the same money you can get a used 4x5 with a lens.

 

2) Market saturation does exist in all major cities. However, those cities also offer more, since there's a lot going on there as opposed to a small town. You have to find your angle (no pun....).

 

3) A smaller city or small town may already have an established photographer that it's been taking care of their needs for years, has been the Godfather for the local mayor's daughter baptism, it's the sheriff's cousin, or whatever. So, it doesn't really matter where you are, competition is there...to some extent.

 

4) As much as you can explain to people they will not get it. It's just the way it is. They really don't want to hear how much your gear costs, how good you are, etc... Again, you have to find your angle, get your equipment in line with the type of shoots you want to do, get a cost analysis done and then, you'll have the starting point.

 

5) TFP work is usually done by beginners (not always) that is to say, it is understood that people on BOTH sides are starting out and therefore there's zero budget. Sometimes you could share the costs with your clients, or work something out. You can't charge ALL costs AND a 10% markup and called TFP. Rather, you can but...no one will want to work with you.

 

6) Unfortunately, with analog you'll have film and processing costs which in your case can be very high for TFP work. Have you considered going digital for a while (until you get some paid gigs and go from there)? Or, rent a 1Ds with 24 TS lens for your TFP work. At least you'll get going and the rental cost should be less than all the other stuff. In addition, the clients can have instant feedback, etc...

 

I have been on the other side of the fence just recently. I own a small Production Company here in Los Angeles and I got a call from a director that wanted to do a video for one of my singers, "at cost". A trade, as he put it, so that he could build his resume. We had a meeting. By the time he was done adding the "cost" we were well over 10K! I said "sorry, no way". That's the way it goes. I think YOu would say the same if you put yourself in your clients shoes.

 

Also, you should really take classes in interior design and/or architecture. Not only will it give you a tremendous edge but, you'll gain more understanding of your clients' world.

OK OK, I suppose some full disclosure is in order. I have *some* justification

for the way I'm outfitted right now:

<ol>

<li> I'm still in school, taking classes, which requires me to have some

stuff to use in those classes. For instance, I'm taking a lighting class

now, which means the

RB with the polaroid back, and a 180 (just traded up for that after the

90 proved too wide for the shots my professor had assigned). </li>

<li> The whole interiors thing is something I'm definitely interested in,

but not as my main professional goal in life—my main aspirations are

to be a fine

art/gallery-type photographer and to teach at the university level. Right

now a lot of my personal stuff is street-related relating to found architecture

and passers-by, hence the mamiya 7.</li>

</ol>

<p>The point of trying to do the interiors was several-fold:</p>

<ul>

<li>It relates to some of my other personal work, relating to light and space

(see my website for examples)</li>

<li>It interests me as a technical challenge, and would build my chops in lighting,

attention to detail, etc.</li>

<li>To generate cash so I can avoid rentals for both personal and professional

work (next on the list is some Speedotron Brown Line stuff for location portraits

and studio)</li>

<li>From what I could tell from my limited perspective, it seemed

an under-served area at the price-point I was offering; almost all the

wannabes in NYC do headshots

and fashion because that's where the glamour is. </li>

</ul>

<p>Lessons learned?</p>

<ul>

<li>"AT COST" is still to expensive for the folks on craigslist, I might need

to split costs here to build my book</li>

<li>I need to search beyond craigslist to find a slightly higher-end "lower-end"

of the market. What my prof said about combing the yellow pages is a good

start. Any more ideas on where to find the right clients, and how to pitch

them, is, of course, greatly appreciated!</li>

<li>I may need to sacrifice one of my current cameras towards a money-making

venture, that will eventually enable me to buy that gear again.</li>

</ul>

<p>Just for reference, here is the entirety of my book that relates to interiors:</p>

<p><a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Summer03/met_stairway_downstairs">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Summer03/met_stairway_downstairs</a><br />

<a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Summer03/met_stairway_upstairs">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Summer03/met_stairway_upstairs</a><br />

<a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/shrink_waiting_room">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/shrink_waiting_room</a><br />

<a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/dentist_waiting_room">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/dentist_waiting_room</a><br />

<a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/office">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Winter03/office</a><br />

and an exterior

<br />

<a href="http://joshwand.com/gallery/Older/columbia_bizschool_stairway">http://joshwand.com/gallery/Older/columbia_bizschool_stairway</a></p>

<p>You can browse the rest of the site for my personal work.</p>

If INTERIOR is NOT going to be your gig I'd say it is NOT a good idea since your rig is not going to cut it. Look for different side-work and keep it simple. I would say do not try to fit the proverbial square peg in the round hole. Right now, you don't have the gear to do interiors so...

 

Have you tried offering repro services to art students? Your cameras would work great for that.

 

Catalog work for start-up companies (clothing, motorcycles, furnitures, etc...)

 

There are many things going on in New York on any given second...