The quality of German and Japanese-built equipment

I preface this potentially inflammatory question by saying that this is not a troll or invitation to flames or intemperate responses. I'm genuinely interested to see what people think.

<p>

I was just talking with a fellow frequenter of this group in a private email exchange about our not-entirely-satisfactory experiences with a well-known US maker of LF cameras. I began thinking about the camera-makers that I associate with unimpeachable quality: Linhof, Sinar, Ebony, some might add Arca Swiss to the list. Though I know there are partisans who really love their Canhams and Phillips and Wisners, it occurs to me that I have just not found the same level of "fit and finish" in US-made cameras that I've bought. Not that they can't be well or beautifully made, but I'm talking about that "throw it off a cliff and keep right in using it" kind of ruggedness that Linhof, for example, has. Or the perfect precision of a Sinar. Not wanting to take this TOO far off-topic, I have to admit that I'm driving German and Japanese cars, too, and just don't generally find US-made ones to be as reliable. IS there really something cultural about Germany and Japan, presumably Switzerland, too, that allows things to be made more precisely, reliably and ruggedly? What IS it? Obviously, there are exceptions to prove the rule (Gitzo tripods from France, the venerable American Deardorff, some might say Reis tripods, though I haven't been as impressed with their usability as, say, my Swiss-made B-1 ballhead!)

<p>

I'm hoping to capitalize on the recent "philosophical" bent of a few recent threads in this newsgroup, I guess. I am, by the way, American, and not in any way trying to denigrate the US in general. More curious I think about what allows things to be made the way they often are in Germany, Switzerland and Japan.

<p>

Nathan

Hi Nathan,

<p>

I can't comment on US made cameras but, I'm currently building my own

house and some of the building equipment that I've been using which is

almost indesctructable, has "Made in the USA" stamped on it. Perhaps it just

depends on the product being made.

I currently own an Ebony - handmade in Japan, perfection in craftsmanship

and design in my opinion, but I wouldn't like to throw it off a cliff! ;-)

I have also used the Sinar cameras for years and they are certainly rugged

and precise, but don't have the beauty of the Ebony, IMHO.

<p>

Precision engineering seems to be something that the German and Swiss

manufacturers do with skill and have a well-deserved reputation for, but I've

found the US made Leatherman knife/tool I use, is as good as my Swiss army

knife - maybe even better.

<p>

Perhaps with camera equipment the, German, Swiss and Japanese makers

just have more experience in this particular area - I certainly like their gear,

but then again no one makes any good camera gear in Australia either - so

they sort of have a monopoly ;-)

<p>

Kind regards

<p>

Peter Brown

Hopefully not too far off topic but this memorable true story has

stayed with me for many years. While trying to get a variation on a

Japanese thin walled step up ring, I took it to America's leading maker

of photographic filters (do I need to give a name?) to see if they

could accomodate me with anything superior. Remember, this was years

ago when these step up rings were not nearly as commonplace as today -

the 'days' of Spiratone's store in Flushing and NYC. The reps response

was simple and unforgettable, "We can't make anything like that here."

And he was right as what his company offered was, in comparison, crude,

larger than necessary series size (i.e., series 8 to series 9 step up)

step up rings that nonetheless did that job fine. But his response was

scary to me. Can't make this in the USA? "Why not", I ask ... still.

These days Tiffen acts as importer for those finely machined Japanese

(and now Taiwanese?) rings.

Of course there's Tradition, but I'll bet that our tax laws have

something to do with it, too. Also, how about Gandolfi, in England?

some companies just know how to make a great product and keep thier standards high.

i know of two camera companies i have experience with that have the concept right but

can't deliver the goods and fall very short of all expectations promised.

We tolerate too much "whining" in the workplace in America. In my

lifetime I have seen the "work ethic" if you will, degrade to the

point where workers are incensed if someone actually expects them to

work. It's actually kind of frightening. The politicians are

fighting just today about employers having to pay for health insurance

long after some lazy unemployable person is gone. The people who

actually go to work and work, do it because they want to. But it's

demoralizing to see folks getting paid more than you goofing off.

We've enjoyed a 10 year windfall in this country because of the new

internet phenomenon, but now that it's over, what do you do with a

nation of people who don't expect to go to work and be productive.

I'm no expert, but I think the other nations mentioned are laughing

behind our backs.

I see the very high quality in Linhof, Sinar, Arca-Swiss and some

other view cameras. I see high quality on others. Then, in some of

the modern field cameras I see a lot of sloppy fittings and a general

lack of precision. Some are better than others but when compared to

many of the similarly priced premium brands they suffer. A Linhof

isn't cheap, but niether is a Wisner & there is no comparison between

the two. Quality control is one issue but design philosophy seems to

be quite different. 'Good enough' is the norm with one while the

other is, if anything, over-engineered & precise beyond what most of

us will ever need. I will take the precision over slop if given a

choice.

'German engineering' has been a staple for some time. Japanese

engineering is noted for high quality. The USA can produce camera

gear just as good as these, so why aren't we seeing more of it?

I agree with Nathan. Anything the size of a Honda Civic or smaller

will invariably be better-manufactured in Japan, Germany. For

example, I could envision an American company attempting the German

Jobo type processors, but they'd be junk, believe me.

<p>

A good friend stopped talking to me inexplicably once. Then I

remember I had sold her a Russian medium format 6x6 including fisheye

for fifty dollars...

I've come across some very interesting written material that in

great and philosophical detail describes the reasons for the quality

and lack of, in certain areas of the world and the perceptions of

large groups of people i.e countries, states etc.to their advantage

or not.

This material is fasinating as it posits transmigration of the

soul(reincarnation)into different areas of the world and peoples

through life and death. The theory is this....that it takes about

100 to 150 lifetimes to run the trip on planet earth.This requires

many births and deaths....like a planetary school as we live more

lifetimes we learn and grow.About 5000 years total time expended on

the planet in various bodies. There are 5 levels...1st is infant

soul...many aboriginal tribes and autistic children characterise

this level...fear of complexity is prominant and much care needed in

the life course. 2nd level is the baby soul where the soul is just

able to start to move about in the world but with many

limitations,especially religious(Iran is largly baby soul).3rd is

young soul...this is where the shakers and movers are found ...the

big achievers. 4th level is mature soul..after all the achievements

have taken place a more artistic and philosophical point of view is

learned.5th level is old soul...this is the level where the

difference of the tangible in contrast to the intangeble are sorted

out and balanced...often the worldy demands are avoided as the old

soul has done much in the course of many lifetimes and now seeks

truth and simplicity.Musicians can fall in this catogory as well as

bums and hoboes...who want nothing to do with the demands of

society.Maybe some photographers too!

According to this info, countries manifest in a general way ..the

levels of the soul and in the lifestyle, as well as the perceptions

and products created. The US is mostly a young soul country and is

therefore very ambitious,capitalistic and warlike while recent

Germany is mature soul country.Most famous artists and geniuses are

mature soul because they require precision and excellence in

creation, and a higher value.Switzerland and Holland are old soul

countries as they allow drugs and prostitution to be legal vs the US

which has a need to put people in jail for this.Switzerland also

stays out of war as the old soul has had enough of this in past

lives and has nothing to learn from it.

As far as cameras are concerned the Germans are very precice with

high values(mature soul) in their construction, unlike the young

soul Americans who are in it mostly for the fame/success or money...

and that may have nothing to do with high quality.Hence the lack of

respect of our autos and...where did our cameras go...we never

equaled the Germans photo gear.

Japan is another story entirely as they are late baby souls with

an eye for repeatability and commercial sucess in a societal

sense...Toyotas are different from Mercedes as Leicas are different

from Nikons.Nikons/Toyotas=functionality(baby soul) while

Leicas/Mercedes=uncompromising quality(mature soul). The soul levels

are evidentin the creations.

Ebony cameras as well as the exquisite Japanese works of art were

most likely not the work of the prevailing soul level of Japan but

of a mature or old soul trying to create quality/beauty in a

systematic,robotic society. Food for thought eh?

It's always risky to generalize -- but no doubt the

German's/Japanese/Swiss must have a gene that separates them from the

rest of the pack when it comes to techno-super quality and attention

to detail. Some other facts: American workers are the most productive

in the world and work longer hours on average than other

industrialized countries. German workers are among the most pampered

in the world with 6 weeks of vacation and very short work weeks.

Therefore, this issue of attention to detail and unsurpassed quality

has little to do with the work ethic of the people as was alluded

above. Another observation is that on average, US corporations

consistently deliver much higher profit margins than their

counterparts in other countries, particularly Japan and Germany (auto

industry aside). The market in the US is brutally focused on

quarterly profit delivery, much more than eleswhere. This undoubtedly

has an impact on the way we think about business even though a number

of the camera manufacturers mentioned above are probably private and

don't feel that type of pressure.

<p>

I think the poster who mentioned several high-quality companies from

the US has the right idea. The issue really boils down to the person

or team at the helm of the company and his/their attitude and

requirements. Those few companies which really value

fit/finish/artestry above all else stand out, but I'm not sure they

get the return on capital demanded in the US economy. Therein lies

the rub. fwiw, I'm an American who's worked in both US an European

large corporations for about 20 years and overseas for the last 14

years.

come on folks, its one thing and one thing only, and that is the

ability to put more money into the product itself, because less money

is going into the cost of the labor. When I say product itself, that

means things like culling out specimens that are no good. I believe

I read somewhere on this forum at one time that Zeiss throws away an

incredible number of their top end binoculars ever year on the one

hand just to protect their warranty on the other end. same probably

goes for Leica, Sinar, Hasselblad, Roles, BMW, and Mercedez.

It's not that we can't do it in America. I have Photosonics high

speed 35mm cameras out at work that are made in Burbank California.

The mechanism in those cameras is like a piece of jewelry. Each piece

hand lapped to precision tolerance. They spin at 11,000 RPM and the

film advances and stops for an exposure 250 times a second. (no typo)

The image quality is similar to a Nikon. Mostly Pentax 67 lenses.

Some Zeiss, and some Schneider Xenotar's. But they cost $250,000.

Your tax $ at work folks. Nobody else anywhere even tries to compete.

I second Jim's point: when it comes to real high-precision

engineering no country has a monopoly, and the best supplier

can come from anywhere.

<p>

You can find a craftsman capable of making you a top-quality LF

camera in pretty well every country in the world. The real

question is how much will it cost for a particular volume.

<p>

Having worked in Germany and visited labs in Japan I can say

that one cultural factor I have noticed is technical staff are treated

with the same respect as managerial or scientific personnel.

Both countries also have a strong tradition in production

engineering - how to make machines to make things -

compared to the anglo-saxon world which awards kudos to the

design of the product itself. Finally, both countries have financial

sectors which are very friendly towards small companies in

general, and small mechanical engineering companies in

particular.

I'm a french, i've got an army swiss knife, a german LF camera (linhof), german lens (schneider and rodenstock); my hasselblad

comes from suede, my apple mac was built in UK. I enjoy french cuisine at home, i'm going to thai, greck...restaurants...

I don't want a world where everyone looks similar (religion, food, skills,...), with mondialisation we can have different products made by

different people, i like it like that, that's call : humanity. Don't let mondialisation destroy our own specific skills, cultures...and enjoy

differences...

I fully agree. After wearing them for four years, I have sadly put to the rubbish the best shoes I ever had: a

pair of Timberland made and bought in USA. Otherwise, my flatbed is German but my monorail is Japanese. My

65 SW is Japanese, but the 110 XL is German. My Apo-Ronar is German, but the Fuji C's are Japanese. My

tripods are French, but the ball heads are German and Italian. My Backpack is Irish as well as my computer, but

my monitor and my car are Japanese and my scanner is Israeli. Finally and to put an end to the list, my

army-knife as well as my rollfilm back are Swiss! What would we be without one another? Best wishes to all!

Forgot to mention an excellent movie tripod that I had and was made in Australia, and the wonderful roast-leg

that we had the other week from a tender Kiwi lamb! ;-)

We (Americans) can manufacture the best there is when we want or need

to. Panavision in Tarzana, CA and Mitchell, before them, produced the

finest 35mm motion picture cameras in the world. Why? They needed to

do it. Entertainment is our biggest export! Big money drives that

industry. It will be interesting to see the impact of HDTV on the

motion picture industry. Should it eventually dominate the world of

moving pictures, it will be the Japanese who we turn to for the cameras

(and as is the case now, Zeiss, Angenieux, Cooke and Leitz for the

optics). But, I think it a mistake to assume anything the Japanese and

Germans make is great. At their best, they are wonderful products but,

at their worst, they can be as dreadful as any made here (USA) or

elsewhere. Precision made dreck? Personally, I think we are

"toolcentric" as a society. We often measure each other's ability by

the tools we use. This is particularly so in highly creative arenas.

I think that is because it is so difficult to explain what enables

artists to create art, that ordinary folks look for "answers" to

explain their success. "He or she makes beautiful photographs.....I

wonder what camera they use". You never hear anyone saying "What a

great plumber....I wonder if he uses a Craftsman or a Stanley wrench!"

Paul,

<p>

You cruel man. That lamb you ate may have been some poor

Kiwi's girlfriend! Just as well it wasn't Australian lamb or it would

definitely have been some bloke's shiela.

<p>

Happy eating ... Walter

Nathan,

<p>

I know where you are coming from and I feel sure that there are

many of us make the same observations and uphold the same

views.

<p>

In fairness: drop a Technika over a cliff and warp the body-shell

and that's the end of it - chances are you won't even be able to

shut it again prior to major surgery.

<p>

Having said that you need to look at the marketing and

manufacturing philosophies of the societies involved. The

comparative histories are relevant also. I�ll endeavour to refrain

from more psychobabble.

<p>

Europe and Japan are very old cultures with traditions of craft

and manufacture dating back to Neolithic times (in the case of

Europe). From this craft manufacturing tradition industry

developed and eventually in response to increased demand and

greater technology heavy industry and manufacturing came into

being � but always with the influence and incorporation of craft

alongside.

<p>

America, on the other hand, is a comparatively new society

quickly developing it�s own culture. From a standing start it had

to acquire vast industrial capabilities virtually overnight to forge

the national expansion necessary to accommodate the

enormous influx of migration that flooded to its shores.

Expediency and economic viability were essential if the goals of

the great American social experiment were to be met. Without

the time, need or funds for craft it had to give way to simplicity

and efficiency � hence the American development and worship

of the production line.

<p>

"Good Old Yankee Know-How" has lead to the invention,

development and fabrication of a plethora of manufactured

goods for every purpose imaginable ... including photography.

They�re adequate to satisfy their intended purpose (often

handsomely so), usually relatively inexpensive and readily

available. But then American designs often remain

fundamentally unchanged for generations to minimise

expenditure on re-designing, re-casting or re-tooling on the

basis that "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It!" The Zippo lighter, Omega

and Beseler enlargers, Norman & Speedotron flash are all

examples � the list goes on and on.

<p>

I recall attending a press-conference here in Sydney a couple of

decades ago at which Neil Armstrong was asked what his

feelings were in retrospect about his trip to the moon. "Scary,"

was his immediate response, to which he added: "I was

undertaking mankind's most potentially hazardous journey in a

craft built by the company that put in the lowest tender." It got him

there and back and the rest is history. In American

manufacturing I believe economical expediency is paramount �

the bottom line IS the bottom line.

<p>

Let�s take a look at enlargers for a moment to illustrate this point.

I had an Omega D-something or other � hardly changed since it

was designed for use with the US Navy in WWII. The negative

stage was a sheet of stamped aluminium plate aligned using 4

phillips head screws and spring washers. Pull the lever to raise

the head and re-insert the neg carrier (a flat stamped aluminium

sandwich) and bits swayed and clunked in a charming but hardly

reassuring ballet. Lower the head and it all sort of went back to

where it was before � but it might be smart to re-check the

focus. Now I have a Durst Laborator L1200 � a solid die-cast

chassis with milled tracks for the neg carrier to glide in on,

assisted by bearings. Snaps back to the same spot time and

time again. The carrier glasses are seated on milled parallel

surfaces, the head glides up the column on roller bearings �

believe me, it�s nice � and precise. The Omega did the same

job but the Durst is nice and precise.

<p>

Now, I�m sure that just like my Linhof the Durst will be at a

premium price in the USA as it is here in Australia and anywhere

else you care to mention. But they make it; and you have are

given a choice. While the bottom line is the focus for these

Italian folk, also, there is the sense that they go the extra yards.

Maybe they have to in order to maintain a competitive identity in

the face of US industrial might.

<p>

Naturally Germany, Switzerland and Japan make some prize

crap as well and the �Name Brands� aren�t necessarily innocent

in this regard, either. But generally speaking if you are

discerning in your choice and cough up the money you can be

sure of getting what you pay for.

<p>

So now let�s consider the Linhof Technika series for a moment:

there was a time when there were many metal

Technical/Field/Press cameras in production � the Graphics

from the USA, the MPPs from England and the Linhof from

Germany to name a few. What do we have now? Despite

market changes, ownership changes and the need to

re-structure production and financing Linhof have persisted and

produce a premium product to this day � with ongoing upgrades

and improvements. They obviously see it as their role and

exercise a considerable level of devotion to it over and above

purely fiscal considerations. I feel sure that the German national

identity plays no small part in this also. So where are MPP and

Graphic now? With the decline in demand for large format

�press� cameras they couldn�t or wouldn�t weather the storm.

<p>

However, what about the healthy American �large format art

market�? Who is serving the perpetuees of the Ansel Adams

legacy? Many fine American craftsmen answered the call

making exquisite wooden field cameras (some metal too, of

course) but due to the somewhat limited size of the market

production is possibly geared up as cottage industry. Forged or

stamped metal parts are often common to many manufacturers;

fiscal constraints are at the forefront again. Then there are the

less scrupulous camera makers that cater for those

photographers on a forced budget by supplying sloppy,

under-featured units made from dead peoples� furniture: those

products could be made anywhere. Nevertheless, Japan and

Europe have made their move into this market as well with the

much-lauded Ebony from Japan, the venerable Gandolfi of

Britain and the full-featured Lotus of Austria. It will be intriguing

to see what happens over time.

<p>

However, credit where it�s due. America makes damn fine film,

paper, and chemistry and has kept up research and

development activity and new product releases until very recently

in some areas that many are predicting the impending death of.

<p>

I do respect Robert's view about concentration on our tools but if

it feels good, it feels good and makes you happy. If it inspires

confidence and certainty then go for it. Maybe the plumber's

client is unconcerned by his choice of wrench but sure as hell

the plumber has his preferences.

<p>

Season�s greetings � Walter

Japanese cameras are great, but I'll never forget that day when a

piece of wood fell off my rosewood Wista. I was composing on the

ground glass when I heard a soft "plunk" sound. One of the corner

pieces, where the tongue and groove joints are, just simply fell off

for no apparent reason. I glued it back on with some Elmer's.

That is a very good question. So good that several years ago, MIT

asked it and then spent 5 years and 5 million dollars answering it.

To limit the scope of the question, they restricted their study to

the automotive industry. The results were published in a book

called: �The Machine that Changed the World� Buy it if you like

graphs and charts. They looked at overall product quality, and

quality as a function of man hours and resources used. Their

conclusion (in a nut shell) was that Toyota was a fine car but in

most cases Ford was just as good and in some cases better. Mercedes

was good but only because of very expensive end of line rework of

mistakes that Ford and Toyota wouldn�t have made.

<p>

I have worked with automotive engineers all over the world, and yes,

I do believe that there are cultural differences that show up in the

products. I wouldn�t even begin to try to make judgments as to

whether these differences make products better or worse. On the

whole I think the answer is both. Linhof puts a triple extension

bellows in the same space Graflex put a double. But to my experience

Graflex will last longer before developing pin holes. The Nikon�s

eight thousands of a second shutter adds capability to the camera but

my wife�s F4 blew up on our honeymoon on about the 30th roll of film

and about 30 days after the warranty expired. My old Ftn with a cloth

shutter is going strong after 25 years and my Leica 3f still

produces a satisfying �zip� after about 50. Everything in

engineering is a compromise.

<p>

With modern quality procedures (invented by Americans for the War

Department during WW2) and modern CNC machinery, the differences in

quality as a result of where a product is made are shrinking rapidly.

<p>

However, �the proof is in the pudding�. Cameras are for taking

pictures not admiring and stroking. (do as I say not as I do.)

<p>

I think it is safe to say the vast majority of 4X5 images that have

stood the test of time were taken with Graflex cameras. Probably the

Wide Field Extar holds the record for studio advertising shots. For

vacations and kids birthdays, the Brownie has to King. Kodak labs

are to film what Bell Labs were to semiconductors. The only area of

photography where you might give the title to a foreigner would be

lens development and to my mind no one comes close to Zeiss.

However, that was more a result of two or three individuals not a

culture.

<p>

The other problem that we have in American is that the government

takes their share first before the company can buy new machinery or

improve worker's compensation. Right now in an American

manufacturing company the government gets about 50% of the wealth

created. Furthar, tax laws and the stock market mandate a 90 day to

1 year corporate horizon. As most equipment capital expendure has a

pay of measured in tens of years, it gets a short shrift in America.

At one time Japan owned 80% of the industral robuts in the world and

America had 80% of the lawyers.

<p>

Neal

Walter, I'm sorry! I did know women are lacking in this part of the world, but I would not have thought it was

that bad! ;-)

Work ethic may be dead or dying, and I do agree with it to a degree,

but I also see a very distressing tendancy for corporate leaders to

espouse doing the least you can get by with and charging as much as

you can for it. This is by no means a lone case, but I have worked

with a guy who is a Senior VP in a major company and his philosophy is

to produce, "minimally acceptable product." He is PROUD of this

approach, talks about it everywhere he goes, and has mentioned it

enough that he calls it by it's acronym, MAP. This attitude is very

ubiquitous, so while we might have lazy workers producing shoddy

stuff, we have their bosses telling them this is exactly what they

want.

<p>

I spoke with a German who was brought here to the US to head up an

American-based German company. He was dumbfounded by our approach.

"No quality control, and when profits dip you lay off workers who are

needed to produce and know what they are doing, rather than the middle

management that is responsible for the dip. And obscene salaries and

bonuses for the top guys when workers get laid off." He said this,

not me. Mercedes' chairman made much less than Chrysler's when

Mercedes bought Chrysler. By the way, he went back to Germany in

disgust because he couldn't change approaches.

Well, my experience (26 years in US industry) leads to the opinion

that worker motivation is a direct function of management treatment.

The euphemism "people are our most important resource" would more

honestly be stated "...our most important liability." If some way

could be found for an American corporation to be run with *no*

employees, the board of directors would gladly lay off everyone in a

flash.

<p>

Dr. J. Edwards Deming taught Japanese industry all it knows about

building high quality products at the lowest possible cost. Companies

in the US rejected his input, and he accepted an invitation to consult

in Japan. They listened. The following is a direct quote from Dr.

Deming in which he responded to those who would blame American workers

for the decline of US products: "The problem is management; it's

always management."

�Minimal Acceptable Quality� Sounds like a story for CNN. However,

it is simply the point beyond which no value is added. The Japaneese

have a word for that, it is �Muda�. Waste. They disdain it above

all else. (Juran defined Quality as �what the customer perceives�)

How much more will the average consumer pay for reliability and

features (form fit and finish that they will never be aware of our

use?)

<p>

One story going around manufacturing management circles now is that

Lexus doesn�t plate their seat frames. They know that this will

result in a light powder of rust during the life of the vehicle but

that the owner will never have a reason to know or care. If they

plate the frame, what ever cost in dollars and resources will be

wasted.

<p>

The fact that a German couldn�t learn anything in America doesn�t

surprise me. One might note however that during WW2 Tiger tanks were

built so well that we could build 10 Shermans for ever Tiger that

they built. Tolerances were so tight that when they got them up in

Russia during the winter, they wouldn�t run. Tigers were built to

last 20 years but considering that the average life of a tank in

battle is two hours, this might not have been an intelligent

engineering decision.

<p>

I might add that I own a Mercedes, have for years and the biggest

advantage that I can see to owning one is I never have to buy

another. You only need to pay $58. for an over-engineered turn

signal flasher once in your life. The Mercedes turn signal flasher

is solid state and flashes the turn signals at a very precise duty

cycle and time period down to the fractions of a second. If you add

a trailer, they still flash at the same speed. Fords use a electro

mechanical device that retails at about $3. If you add a trailer

they flash faster because the load goes up. Which is value and which

is obsessive compulsive?

<p>

Neal