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The Future of Photo.net


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Hi everyone,

 

This is a strange post to write, but I’d like to start by introducing myself. I’m Matt Jensen and I’ve been running the Fiverr forums for almost 6 years. The Fiverr community has grown from a WordPress site all the way up to (at last count) 141,413 unique contributors and over 800k accounts. As mentioned by Rodger, Creative Live was recently acquired by Fiverr so we can expand our online education offerings.

 

In that acquisition, we found ourselves asking, what is this community and how can we help it flourish. Being the “Community Guy” at Fiverr, I volunteered to start the conversation about Photo.net, the community, and how was can help each other.

 

To be honest, it seems like this community could use a little love and resources and I’d like to help change that. I love that everyone here is so passionate and I’d love to find a way to make sure we all can encourage that passion to continue to grow this amazing site.

 



From a hosting standpoint we have, unfortunately, found that the site urgently needs technical upgrades. Needless to say, some infrastructure and updates would need to happen, which may require a migration to another platform.

 

Don’t worry, before anything changes, I want to hear from you. I promise to be as transparent as I can be and include everyone in this process.

This is where you come in. I’m new to this forum, but not new to the world of photography. Not a professional by any means, but a hobbyist (Canon 60D, EF Zoom 24-105mm F/4.0 is my go-to).

 

I’ve met and talked with the amazing moderators and admins, but want to hear from everyone about what this forum is all about, what it can be, and how I can help us grow this community together.

 

-MJ

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Welcome. A chief c0mplaint over the years has been a lack of communication from management, especially when the site goes down. Volunteer moderators have tried to do the best they can, but it often falls far behind what I see on other forums .Many former participants, including myself have stopped our financial contributions, because we failed to see needed attention to the site. Having said that, and I'm sure others who are more active than me, will weigh in, I generally review the posts on a daily basis and occasionally contribute if there is something worthwhile I can add to a conversation, or photo topic. At one time the site had a number of toxic contributors, but most of that has gone by the wayside..
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Thanks.

 

When the site was redesigned a number of years ago, the gallery side took a big hit, so our portfolios and mechanisms for critique and interaction have suffered terribly ... to the point where I haven't bothered updating my portfolio in a while and rarely try to critique. It used to be that it was easy to communicate to others about their photos. If I critiqued someone's photo and they then responded to my critique, I would be notified of their response. Many great photographic dialogues used to ensue. That doesn't happen.

 

Also there's little interaction between the forum and the gallery side of the site. I go to a member's portfolio and their screen name is often different from the one they have in the forums. If I find a portfolio I like, and want to send a PM to that photographer, keying in the name I see on the portfolio very often doesn't get me anywhere since their name for the PM system is what their forum name is.

 

Those are just a couple of things. My best advice to you is this. Start a portfolio of your own and try to participate both as a submitter and as a critic, with intention of interactivity with other photographers as your goal. Take a couple of months at least to do this before redesigning anything so you get a good feel for what features you'd find helpful and what features are currently lacking.

 

Another way to gain insight is to navigate the site carefully, noting all the out of date instructions and features that no longer work, such as Photo of the Day and Week. Note how many "benefits" of premium membership are no longer viable, and how many dead ends you encounter with links sending you to the wrong place or nowhere at all, for instance trying to email management. Try getting email notifications. Most if not all don't work.

 

I think the best way for management to move forward is to be part of the community, in order to best understand it and know the ins and outs. When it used to be like that, things ran much more smoothly, especially if tech personnel were readily available.

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"You talkin' to me?"

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Thanks for starting this conversation. First of all, I'm not a paying member, so not really in a position to complain; I still appreciate having a place to share with other like-minded photographers. With that said, it's concerning that long-time contributors are drifting away from this site, even in the last few months. Technical issues (like uploading images) are ongoing, new members have complained about automatic billing that they can't cancel, and moderators (those who still participate) don't seem to have the support or communication from site administrators that they need (perhaps more moderators are needed, as well). Why would anyone invest in a membership for this kind of experience? I wouldn't, and won't be doing so, until things change for the better.

 

Photo.net is not just a web site, it's historic (one of the first 700 sites on the web back in 1993) so however it changes in the future, I hope that that some element of that heritage and character can be carried on, while attracting a new generation of photographers. I don't want to see it become just another "social media" site.

Edited by m42dave
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It's rare to have a photo site, or any site currently, that can avoid the frantic twaddle model initiated by fb and others that succeed only in cheapening the experience while exploding the profits.

This is one of the best that has avoided that fate by, for example, not putting video game machines in a quiet pub. I dread receiving 'a little love' from a website developer's ideas on this forum.

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Why do I say things...

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Thank you for sharing your feedback. So you know where my head is at:

 

1. I have found a lot of technical things to be broken. We think that's due to the limitations of the platform and we will likely have to change platforms in order to keep this going.

2. I very much want to keep the spirit and integrity of this forum. While "gamification" works for some things, it can also be detrimental to others. I don't see a need for those types of mechanics on a large scale at all.

3. Part of the conversation has been that this site HAS been around for so long and it deserves a historical landmark plaque. We want to save and preserve it, while growing it and using it as an example of how it can be successful with out being a "social media" site.

 

Not going to lie, moving forward, there will likely be some UX/UI changes that will be an adjustment. But that's why we're having this discussion now. So that I can be as transparent as possible with the process with as much feedback as possible from y'all!

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Much appreciated. In the service of transparency, remember that your demographic is not necessarily tech savvy. So, for instance, your caution about UX/UI changes is meaningless to me since I don’t know what UX/UI refers to. :)
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"You talkin' to me?"

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I am glad that PN is getting some attention from the new site owners, and realize that there will need to be changes in order to improve functionality, operating costs, and revenue generation. As a member since 1998 (when Philip Greenspun owned and ran PN), I really only have one request. That is to maintain the basic functionality of the Forums. PN forum structure, IMHO, is very readable and easy to follow and contribute. I find that forum structures, such as the one employed at DP Review to be exceedingly difficult to navigate and follow. Also, if the new owners decide to keep the paid membership structure, it would really help to make it clear that such membership will not be automatically renewed. I was a paid member of PN until site changes made it likely that such renewal would be automatic. I would be willing to again become a paid member if you can clearly opt out of automatic renewal.
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Reply to mjensen.

 

Hello , and thank you for not summarily shutting down the site.

 

Please bear in mind that members of this site are from all over the world , and some countries do not allow for easy money transfers.

Free Membership is really appreciated by us.

 

I like the "non-competitive" character of this site , and would also hate to see it become another "social media" site.

 

Cheers.

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Hi Matt,

Thanks for this post. It its refreshing to see that someone on the management staff has responded. I am a long time member and frequently post in No Words and Nature forums. I am addicted to this forums and hope they continue. Yes, I understand that technical changes are necessary and required to keep this site functional. IMHO it is probably one of the better photo sites around. Please don’t let it die.

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I agree with Sam that the portfolio and galleries and critiquing of photos is obscure and complicated with too many screens within screens. It looks good superficially to the outsider, but once you start to look at someone's portfolio or want to work on your own you will see what I mean. Another beef of mine is the non-functioning Editor picks, POTD and POTW. I think these have been frozen for about 5 years. If they are not working, don't pretend they are "Live". Just remove them.
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Robin Smith
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POTW

Thankfully, one of our more fabulous (and humble) members has been facilitating a POTW thread that is member devised and run. And thanks for your regular participation, by the way. That having been said, it would be nice if it could once again come under the auspices of that special feature that used to give it more visibility and a little extra oomph. Actually, several members have stepped up and tried to pursue threads and forums of community interest, such as weekly-themed No Words and Street and Doc threads. But whatever the new administration can do to bolster these and give them more prominence on the site would certainly be welcome.

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"You talkin' to me?"

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Hi Matt, and many thanks for your great introduction! I'm familiar with Fiverr and I'm delighted that it's acquired photo.net with positive intentions

 

My 6 cts. are:

- amongst other more widely known 'photo sites' such as 500px, Flick, etc. photo.net is IHMO a bit of a backwater. Mostly because of its outdated 'and unreliable 'photo sharing' & display' facilities. Perhaps also due to the relatively high percentage of active posts on ''classic cameras' and film in the forums

- for many years there has been zero investment or investor attention paid to photo.net. Some members (including myself) have considered it a just matter of time before the plug was pulled. We all appreciate the great efforts of our moderators under these challenging circimstances! I have advised new members not to rely on photo.net as a (sole) platform for sharing photos. Given the level of facilities and uncertainty, I have let my once-paid subscription lapse.

- what photo.net absolutely has going for it is that it's a very friendly and very helpful forum for beginners and íntermediate photographers like myself. We have very experienced and professional members who are only too happy to help answer any questions.

- photo.net is also a forum that IMHO goes at least a couple of levels deeper than 'likes' a and 'great shot' comments; this enables members to discuss photos and to learn from each other

- over the last couple of years, there have been increasingly more active threads on digital and mobile photography which - in principle - should attract ýounger members

- the 'Explore' (photos) is fine but for some reason doesn't invite me to explore recent photos

 

 

So within the very wide Fiverr portfolio, I think that a dedicated photo site could be a great addition. Especially the forums, possibly as a part of the 'Fiverr community'. The photo.net website and forums are long overdue for an upgrade. If Fiverr wants to provide this, I'm all for it. I'm not sure whether Fiverr plans to integrate photo.net into its ''community'' or keep it separate for now.

 

For the future of photo.net my gut feeling is that there are three more or less separate areas for improvement that would benefit Fiverr (as an investor):

  • improve the basic infrastructure
    • the platform for forums and photo sharing
    • forums: the look and feel similar to Fiverr forums
    • photo hosting and sharing

    [*]Encourage photo.net members (like me) to invest in a paid membership to support the investments in the future of photo.net

    [*]Marketing for what membership of photo.net has to offer for new members

Bottom line: my guess is that most members of photo.net are 50+ so perhaps not so interested in 'education offerings'. To capitalize on their investments, Fiverr needs IMHO ( through marketing) to attract younger, less experienced photographers to join photo,net. Photo.net needs to become 'the place to be'' for serious and aspiring photographers. With links to top-class photography sites.

 

 

I truly hope that new members find support in the photo.net 'community' and also educational opportunities via Fiveer.

 

 

Mike

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I hope the basic forum structure is maintained. It is the one thing about P.net that is different from places like Flickr and some of the other sites and is really the heart and soul of photo.net. I don't come to P.net to see photographs except as we share in the various forums. I tend to find sites like Flickr just contain a lot more good photography generally. Maybe you can change that.

 

Some of the big issues I've seen is that management and the tech department have been incredibly opaque. Most inquiries go un-responded to. I've known some of the past administrators that basically left in frustration because they themselves could not get responses from the operators or the techs and felt that basically the owners had abandoned the site and it was just running itself. It's not always the case, but it has been a nagging problem here for years.

As others have said, this has not been the ideal platform for photo sharing, but it is the best I've seen for discussing various aspects of cameras and some have made a real effort to promote discussion of photography beyond the technical aspects. But I think it's a real gem that you can go to a classic camera forum or other such forums here and people have lots of invaluable and I find interesting information about techniques and jurassic technology of photography that you won't find on Flickr or Instagram etc., and that should be preserved and supported, lest they disappear entirely. I think it really makes Photo.net unique. Though there are sites that specialize in such things, it's a real service to have a general site that is broad topic.

I do think it might be useful to have established professional photographers especially known people from the likes of Magnum or other well known photographers, to do articles or give input. But that's probably not so easily done.

 

Lastly, I'm glad you are talking about transparency. I'm hoping whatever platform changes you are planning to make you share how they will look and function before you implement them. I'm not saying that we users should dictate to the site owners how they should run their site, but some of us have been here a long time, and you might be interested on what people think about planned changes.

Thanks for starting this conversation.

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Hi MJ, P.net is important to me and I would be more than sad to see it go. I know a lot of people have stopped paying the subscription for very valid reasons due to the lack of support the site has been getting for many years. I have chosen to keep paying in the hope that some support might help keep things going. This would be a good time to offer a thankyou to the sterling work of the moderators. P.net is unique in the fact that is a place to hang-out with people who's names you recognise and who's views you can accept or disagree with in the knowledge that they will be around again tomorrow. You must do what do what is needed to keep your bosses happy but please don't (or let them) throw the baby away with the bathwater. BR GC.

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I'm mainly interested in the Forum side of photo.net with its unique community of helpful and (mainly) like minded people which I think is its greatest strength. There is also a huge and informative resource of past postings and threads which members have contributed, for example in the Classic Manual Cameras forum, which I think it's important to retain.
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  1. The user interface (UI) is too complex: I had to change my nickname in two different places, for example.
  2. As concerns the User Experience (UX), I see it as clumsy
  3. There seem to be too many paths to different actions and far too many levels of interaction with the site.
  4. As @samstevens has pointed out, the gallery side has big flaws: it is impossible to scroll through pictures, it is impossible to view them large (we all know that sometimes we want to look at details)
  5. Forum page works well, it just not obvious why I access it via "all recent discussions" as well as via "general photography". I'm sure the streamlining of the menus is a good thing to do
  6. probably it would be good to bring back the sections photo of the week, photo of the day, the landing pages are empty since years.

These are just the first things that come to my mind, a systematic review would take more time.

Edited by je ne regrette rien
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There are many excellent photographers buried in Photonet, but many or most of these contributors are usually not the main contributors to the forums. It is a bit of the case of "those who do, do" and "those who don't, talk about it". That's probably a little unfair, but you catch my drift, I hope.
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Robin Smith
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+1 on transparency of how the site is structured, operated, and funded. During the massive upgrade a few years ago that lost my portfolios and subjected us to months of dismal performance, I declined to renew my paid membership. Having an understanding of the site's infrastructure and challenges to keep it operational would encourage me to support w/paid membership - to keep Photo.net available and vibrant.
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Develop a zero-tolerance policy for personal attacks.

 

Basically, there is.

 

And yes, it happens all the time by certain individuals.

 

Who and when? Examples please.

 

Moderators don't read everything published on PN.

 

All ad hominem attacks I have seen published, or which have been reported to me, have been dealt with directly.

 

I reckon that's the same protocol followed by all the other Moderators.

 

WW

Edited by William Michael
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Thanks for starting this conversation. First of all, I'm not a paying member, so not really in a position to complain; I still appreciate having a place to share with other like-minded photographers. With that said, it's concerning that long-time contributors are drifting away from this site, even in the last few months. Technical issues (like uploading images) are ongoing, new members have complained about automatic billing that they can't cancel, and moderators (those who still participate) don't seem to have the support or communication from site administrators that they need (perhaps more moderators are needed, as well). Why would anyone invest in a membership for this kind of experience? I wouldn't, and won't be doing so, until things change for the better.

 

Photo.net is not just a web site, it's historic (one of the first 700 sites on the web back in 1993) so however it changes in the future, I hope that that some element of that heritage and character can be carried on, while attracting a new generation of photographers. I don't want to see it become just another "social media" site.

 

Ah...that is why it shows up so much in searches about odd topics. It is a classic!

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