The future of film, film cameras and film processing labs

<p>I am worried about the whole thing.<br>

Lets assume we will have film for the next 50 years. The cameras we use today are all used. If onew fails you buy another used camera. Eventually it will fail too. Repairing is out of the question, because is cheaper to buy a used Nikon N80 than repair the one you have.<br>

The film community is large and they would like to shoot with a film slr in the following years or decades. But the problem is that slowly the quality of all the world used cameras will go down. In ten years from now, it would be even more difficult to find a decent Nikon f100. Twenty years from know, maybe you will no find it .<br>

We may think the solution is to buy used slr, but at long range, all used cameras will stop working.<br>

Still we have Rollei and Mamiya from 50 years. But what options we will have in tweny years?<br>

Film processing lab are more scarce. In some countries like Mexico they are still prevalecent. But if you want to precess slide film you have just 5-10 places in all the country<br>

Our destiny is to become in "niche" field, struggling to get film, cameras, and labs. How many years will this be possible? 30, 50 years? And then we will go exctint like groups using daguerrotypes and ohter ancient from of photografhy<br>

Maybe some brands will reintroduce a new film slr cameras just for this group of enthusiast<br>

Who is producting new slr cameras? Tell me and that would be a good sign<br>

I wouldnt like that<br>

Carlos Rodrigue</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I wouldn't bother, I'm still pretty young (37) and still think I will have the possibility to shot film for the rest of my life (finger crossed).<br>

Film camera are still produced by leica, Hasselblad, Rollei, Bessa, Fuji, Nikon (?), Mamiya...... may be not in big quantity but still produced, these camera will reach shops' shelf and sooner or later will be sold, nay be at a discount price if sales drop, better for those who buy it.<br>

If used camera become more scarce it will be conveniente to have it repaired instead of drop it for a new (used) one, a practice I nevere accepted, for sntimental reason and for practical reason: who assure you that the new (used) camera you buy will work longer and better than that fixed?<br>

For your information this morning I callede the Italian importer of Voigtalender to ask about the new Fuji/Voigtalander rangefinder camera (6X6 and 6X7) because me and a friend /younger than me are both interested in buying it. They answere it will be available at the end of march or the first days o april and they will stock it because to his big surprise are receiving a lot of request. And consider that Italy is a quite small country.....</p>

 

<p>I am not worried at all. One of the basic rules of the economy is that as long as there is a profitable market from something, there is somebody willing to produce and sell it. IMHO this will happen to film, development and cameras. The lab to which I bring my slides actually told me that they process more slide rolls per day than they did five years ago. It won't be a mass market, but it can still be a profitable market. It will move from mass market products to small companies and from cheap minilabs to small pro labs, but as long as there will be enough people willing to shoot film for the joy of it (let's forget about the endless debate about quality) there will be somebody supporting them. And if one day used cameras will no longer be available, I am sure that somebody will come out with new ones. It does not take rocket science to design and manufacture a 100% mechanical SRL based on a 1980's design and maybe even not an autofocus 1990's one. IMHO the best way we all have to make sure that film stays alive is to stop discussing about pixels, load a roll into our cameras, get out there, shoot some fantastic pictures and show them to our friends.</p>

<p>Don't worry too much, the whole film, cameras and processing may or may not disappear. But it is here now, if you enjoy film– shoot film. If more people shoot film then the whole eco system will probably survive, if not it will dwindle, peter out and all we'll be left with in 20 years will be possibly a few mono films used in antique Leicas and Rollei's.<br>

On the bright side there are still a few film cameras made, new ones introduced or re-introduction of old models like the one Nikon did on a limited edition a few years back. I hope film will settle into a niche, then film and camera manufacturers can match demand and supply, the whole thing will become supportable, sure there won't be a lab in every town, you may have to buy film, cameras and processing mail order- but it can survive.<br>

Just have fun making images in the medium of your choice, find a good lab and enjoy.</p>

<p>I am not worried at all. I have a few thousand pounds invested in film equipment which I use out of pleasure, not to make money from. The dust from the digital revolution seems to be settling a bit now, and film still has a firm hold on a pretty large user base.</p>

<p>Some of the old mechanical cameras will remain servicable for many years to come, so long as competent repairers, spares and old bodies are around to be cannibalised. I have a 26 year old Olympus OM1n that is currently being serviced. Once done, no doubt it will run for years before it needs another service (assuming a repairer is still around in years to come). New film cameras (not Olympus SLR's) are still being brought to market by a few manufacturers albeit in reduced numbers, but this still shows some commitment to us film users.</p>

<p>As for film, recent introductions such as Kodaks' Ektar indicate that the industry is alive and well. I am sure this will change in 20 - 50 years time, but I really don't see it going away completely. The amount of film types offered will surely shrink, but someone, somewhere will still produce it if their is a demand and money can be made from it.</p>

<p>Good processing labs can be a little harder to find, but they are out there and will remain so, as long as film users continue to put business their way. My philosophy? Buy lots of film, exercise my cameras with it, and get the results processed by my favorite lab (pretty much the same as I have done for decades)! </p>

<p>Cheers, Steve. </p>

<p>You can still purchase music recordings on vinyl disks and you can still purchase turntables. You can still purchase buggy whips. Film may move into the niche category some day, but enthusiasts will still be able to purchse it. </p>

<p>My worry is photopaper and chemicals and enlarging bulbs. The first two can not be stockpiled for the future.</p>

<p>Ronald, it's like film, as long as there will be a profitable market, somebody will make paper and chemicals. Rollei is doing a good job to keep B&W alive.<br>

To be honest, I expect the film market to remain relatively stable in the next years. The people still sticking to film are there because of choice and not necessity. The new digital toy is not likely to convert them, I believe that almost all the people that could jump into digital have already done so, starting from photojournalists and big volume, low quality shooters (insurance agents or real estate brokers, for example), followed by casual shooters, wedding photographers and other professionals. If I go back with my memory, I recall an insurance agent shooting 2-3 rolls everyday of pictures of wrecked cars. He was always scanning for the cheapest films and the cheapest developments. As soon as digital cameras became affordable, he jumped into digital. The same happened to vacationers, tourists with a film point and shoot camera are an oddity. I am relatively convinced that the remaining people using film are really doing it for the joy of taking pictures the way it used to be.</p>

<p>I understand your concerns, but I have given up worrying about things 5-10 years down the road, particularly things I have no control over. Who knows what changes will come in the industry, technology, and my own preferences? Right now I have better options in 35mm slides than I did 15 years ago - even my favorite Velvia 50 didn't stay dead long. If people want film in the future, there will be someone making and processing it, and making or repairing cameras to run it through. And if not, well, going digital is not my preference but it's hardly the worst thing that could happen to me.<br>

I read your biography, Carlos - take your own advice! :)<br>

'And the fact is sometimes the future can be difficult. So the message is simple: "do things now and enjoy them"' Carlos Rodriguez</p>

<p>What will finally kill virtually all film based photography is the economics of running a film lab, not the lack of new cameras. Fewer people shooting less and less film means that more and more labs will have to shut down.</p>

<p>Film manufacturers and processing labs make their money on the photos you <em>don't </em> want, not the few that you do. This is not an economic model that is sustainable now that there is an alternative for many people.</p>

<p>For Ronald Moravec: about the enlarger bulbs: I recently bought 24 (!) PH 140 lamps from 1000bulbs.com for about $2.60 each.</p>

<p>The "writing is on the wall" for slide flim. The E-6 labs are collapsing. Kodachrome is the beneficiary of corporate welfare from Kodak.<br>

When all movies theaters have digital projection, color flim (at least) will be dead. That's the core of the volume.</p>

<p>My boss uses a fountain pen. I think it's a ridiculous thing, but he loves it. Whatever. He has a bottle of fancy ink on his desk, which he didn't get at the local 7-11 store. I think he has to go to some fancy stationer's.</p>

<p>I think (but don't know) that the film and silver paper market will go like that. I'm now just at the point where I have to buy my 120 B & W film mail-order, because in my city of a million I can't get reliable fresh supplies when I want it. But in 1960, I could have got it at the drug store, just like I could have got a bottle of Quink for my fountain pen.</p>

<p>I bet we will be able to get something like HP5 or Tri-X for the shooting lifetime of most of the people here. I suspect someone will continue to offer C41 film and processing for a couple of decades at least, but it will be a pain. I hope I can continue to get XP2 for a long time. </p>

<p>Ellis, so far, at least here, I have seen many 1-hour minilabs and some big, large volume, low quality labs, shut down. But they were aimed at vacationers and people looking for the cheapest processing and for 4"x6" prints made by automatic machines without the operators even looking at them. Their customers went to digital a long time ago.<br>

The professional lab I bring my slides in the film days used to operate around the clock to meet the needs of photojournalists. Now they run on two shifts, offer services aimed at professional digital shooters and, after hitting the bottom in 2006, they told me that processing of film is increasing. Not big numbers, but enough to justify the equipment and the people.</p>

<p>I think about this too.I need to get a new camera. That is why I started up the thread "What do you use for a camera?". If you read through that there are some great reccomendations for used cameras, but that is not what I want. I have looked at the Nikon FM10 which is one of the last SLR cameras being made. I know my lab is dedicated to film until they can't get chemicals. However, there are a still a few rangefinders being made. Since I want something fairly high quality I have looked into the voigtlander lineup. They seem to be pretty good. I think I will settle with at Bessa R2M. You can also still get cameras from Zeiss and Leica too. They may cost you, but they are still there. B&H also has a few F100s left in stock...If we all show enough intrest maybe we can convince Canon or Nikon to make a good camera again.</p>

<p>According to the Mayan calendar, the world will end in 2012. I think film and film based cameras will be plentiful till then. :]</p>

<p>Holgas and Dianas are selling more cameras every day. The landscape is evolving. I'm not saying that you should buy a Holga, slap a Leica sticker on it and call it art.</p>

<p>Like someone else said, film will survive if it's profittable to produce and develop. Some places have consolidated. Instead of 15 of your local drug stores of the same name all having 1 hour labs they shut down all but 3 of them. That doesn't mean that you can't get your film developped, it just means you have to drive further but since more people are going to those 3 stores it remains profittable.</p>

<p>Same goes for cameras. Everyone running around buying up cheap used cameras means the manufacturers see no profit, so they don't make any. If the retail stores have to severely discount film cameras they so no profit, so won't order any more from the manufacturer. New sales of cameras will drive the industry.</p>

<p>Some one said that you can still buy vinyl records. That's true, but it has made a comeback. I read an article that creditted the revival to a clerical error by a Fred Meyer in Oregon accidentally ordering one of U2s releases in vinyl instead of CD, they decided to put them on the shelves and the store sold out of the vinyl. They decided to order a few other records and sales have increased. We may just need a clerical error somewhere for someone to order some Velvia 50 to jumpstart the revolution.</p>

<p>Canon still has the 1V on their website. They don't make a Rebel film camera any more. A shame really, they weren't a bad price when they were out compared to the digital counterparts.</p>

<p>I have a Rebel. I kept it pretty nicely but it only lasted me three years!</p>

<p>If you are serious about shooting film for life, then there are ways of going about preparing for that that will maximize your chances of doing so. Color is going to be tough for all the reasons mentioned above, the motion picture industry converting to digital is a big one.</p>

<p>So personally for me in terms of color, once Kodachrome is gone, I will be all digital in color for 35mm and use films like Velvia and other color stocks in 120 as long as it is feasible. </p>

<p>But black and white is an entirely different story. It is actually gaining a following that at least for now, makes it a viable niche for companies like Kodak, Ilford and other small outfits. The return on investment for these companies is not as bad as you think because the production line has been amortized for quite some time now.</p>

<p>Manufacturing good black and white stock is relatively easy as some hobby types even coat their own. Many of the chemicals like Rodinal will last decades if properly stored. At 43 years old, I figure 20 years from now is a damn good run with film. So I have stock piled chemistry that has a broad use and long shelf life for long term projects. I have invested in making a special freezer that actually uses a lead foil lining to help delay the effect of Gamma radiation. And in that freezer are hundreds of rolls of rare and slow black and white film stocks like APX 25, TechPan and Kodak HIE in 35mm and 120mm. Of course being faster and sensitive, I plan to use the HIE first after the conclusion of Kodachrome.</p>

<p>I also live in a cooler climate, it makes it easier to store larger quantities of supplies. So I believe the combination of stocking supplies and what will be available later will more than carry me through the next 20-30 years. You can only worry about this so much before it all gets in the way of making images today and a week from now....</p>

<p>As for the cameras, I take a professional approach to this. The way I look at this is not unlike a race car team. I have more than one body in each format and type. Two 500 C/M's, 4 Leica M film rigs, two Nikon film bodies, etc. I also tend to buy spare body screws and lens mounts in the more heavily used rigs. I have over a dozen spare light trap seals for my 6 Hasselblad film backs. I also own a really good set of tools for camera repair such as a proper screw driver set, allen wrenches, torx head drivers, various hemostats, pliers, tweezers with locks and even a set of digital calipers. Even use of several camera instead of heavy use of one can slow down the wear and tear timeline a bit as well.</p>

<p>There are cameras I keep an eye out for on ebay such as "Beaters" or "For parts only" so I can cannibalize them for down the road. So again, the combination of my own stocking of supplies and what will be niche later *should* carry me over the next few decades...</p>

<p>As an aside, a serious enthusiast in his teens or twenties would do well in the future if he learns how to repair the Leica M line, Nikon F line and Hasselblad line for down the road. You could be making bank 20 years from now repairing these rigs if that is something that interested you...</p>

<p>So what this all means to me right now is that at present, there is a lot of good chemistry, film and cameras out there. There are also a few good labs and repair shops that have thought about this long ago, so live for today if that is all you can afford. Prepare for tomorrow according to your perceived needs and financial abilities.</p>

<p>But don't worry about it, if you are like me an insist on shooting some form of film 30 years from now, you will simply manifest that option.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>

<p>I am much more pessimistic about the future of film photography today than I was just a year ago. The current economic climate may sound the death knell for most amateur film photography. Companies both big and small are fighting for survival - film and processing will either be priced to allow the firms to make a reasonable profit or will be discontinued. I believe the markets for professional and serious amateur film photography can absorb these increases but I'm not so sure about those 35mm films that cater to casual shooters. Kodak is obviously hanging onto K-64 in order to properly celebrate Kodachrome's 75th anniversary next year but they have shown little long-term commitment to color transparency film. My guess is that they will exit both the K-64 and E-6 markets at the same time. I think Fuji will continue to market E-6 films but prices will rise significantly and the few remaining labs that will still process this film will follow suit with increases of their own.</p>

</p>

<p>I just talked to a Kodak guy and he told me that they have been selling more Kodachrome than usual. He could not tell me how much but he said it is increasing. I asked him about the future of Kodak film and he said the they have said that they will make it if people buy it. I would have expected him to say that. I know that there are some debates about this...but just think, Kodak just released Ektar. I personally don't think that they would have done that if they did'nt think anyone would use it. I think that the future of film manufacturing itself looks good but as for the labs and new cameras not so great right now. I think someone should start a projec to get people to take that retro old camera out of their closet at give it a whirl just for fun. Maybe we could spark some intrest and get some people to see what they miss in always using digital.....just a though</p>

<p>all you guys got some good points on economy, usability, and so on, but as many people have pointed out in this and other forums there will be film around maybe - I think definatly - longer than any of our lives.<br>

There are people out there that coat there own stuff be it paper, film or glassplates and since the chems for developers can not, or atleast not as easy disapear you can safly say that processing might get harder but never impossible.<br>

I for myself have switched from lab processing my colourfilm to homeprocessing in a jobo ATL1000 - and most of the spareparts are easy to find some places else if it is not jobo, because the parts are made out of something and there is a manual out there and someguy has that manual and then you share cause we love film and can't think of something else to shoot.<br>

All of this is about commitment and love to something - as long as we shoot film and buy it there will be someone that will produce it even if it is a small quantitiy.But since rollei is making the rsx200 again I for myself am very happy.<br>

In the end noone knows what will happennext so let us all enjoy film, the cameras we use and the pictures we look at, cause we can not take it with us into our graves.</p>

 

<p>I lot of good advice here, Carlos. The concensus is: Don't Worry! Spend an amount that you are comfortable with, and have fun. So what if film dies out in 10, 20, 40, 100, or whatever years. There are bigger worries in life than contemplating whether one's film camera may someday be just a paper weight.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The future of film, film cameras and film processing labs</p>

</blockquote>

<p>is bleak....</p>

<p>Film and processing used to be the bread and butter of most shops. With digital, you see many of those shops either dissapearing or making major changes to thier business models. The rough part is, that as those film finishing shops dissapear, even less film gets used (due to difficulty in finding suppliers). Its a downward spiral, and very unfortunate. It is almost as if film is becoming obsolete, which it really isn't.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I believe the markets for professional and serious amateur film photography can absorb these increases but I'm not so sure about those 35mm films that cater to casual shooters.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Casual shooters went to digital long ago, for a matter of convenience and perceived lower cost. The few remaining ones are old people that have a P&S camera, shoot one roll of film per year, half of it on vacation and do not want to learn digital. Nowadays the typical film shooter is a serious amateur, sometimes with an interest also in old cameras. This kind of user is more likely to buy Velvia or Provia than Sensia. As I said, those users are likely to stay with film as long as it will be available and not outrageously priced.<br>

And if you think that young generations do not have an interest in film, you should have seen the Lomographic society boot at Photokina. A friend of mine was there and he told me it was crowded with teenagers.</p>