The defunct Off-Topic forum

<p>In order not to forget about the since long announced new formula of the Off-Topic forum (originally foreseen to be communicated more or less by May 2014, if I remember right) it might be about time to restate the question: <strong>What happens ?</strong><br>

I'm not inviting for yet another discussion between members on the Off Topic forum, I'm only trying to make the Administration communicate to us. Hoping, it is not considered a crime.</p>

<p>Maybe it was May of a different year or perhaps you are asking too much?</p>

<p>Anders, perhaps your question constitutes an attempt to resurrect a dead horse. I do commend you, though, on your efforts to keep the lines of communication open.</p>

<p>I agree Michael, they kill horses don't they ! - but horses can be replaced and in some cases even with better breeds.<br>

Keeping quiet has never been a recommendable form of communication. </p>

<p>It is all I can do to not join in this fray. I think PN management has performed one of those procedures on me that removes the stallion from the horse. I never cease to be amazed by how effective their policy of benign neglect of members has become. :-)</p>

<p>Jim, I'm more optimistic than that. I do think PN still has the potentiality to be one of the best places for photographers to be around. Treating long term paying members like you and me as nuisance will not solve any problems, however. <br>

Personally, I'm just advocating for improvements so that we all can profit from being here. Finding a formula that permits having a "Off-Topic forum" in PN is a test in that sense, as far as I see it. Still waiting for an announcement from the mountain!</p>

Photo.net does indeed have the potential for being one of the best places for photographers. And as long as this is Photo.net, i don't see a need for a political soap box forum here. If anyone wants to express their concerns about or discontent with political issues, there are plenty other places on the web to do so.<br>Keep it shut, i say. Better still: remove it.<br><br>Oh, and make sure the Casual forum is not abused as a surrogate forum for what was responsible for shutting the Off Topic forum.

<p>It is actually funny, but "political soap box forum" was not the reason expressed by the administration for suspending the Off-Topic forum. Name calling and personal attacks were the reasons.<br>

In fact, some of us, me included, have continuously argued against using PN in general, and the Off Topic forum in particular, for undue nationalistic and patriotic rants. So if we could get rid of such misuse of PN, it would be great. It could be part of the new rules of a reborn Off Topic forum which might calm things down. </p>

And that you continuously argued against that was because that was what it was continuously used for.<br>And let's face it: open a 'open' forum on the web and that sort of thing is what you get. Your mention of "undue nationalistic and patriotic rants" is the perfect illustration. That what you dismiss as such are someone else's defence against indignant dismissals of their opinions as "undue nationalistic and patriotic rants". And so things go, again and again, and again, and again. Never anything good will come of it.<br><br>And do you remember that <b>Photo</b>.net is indeed that, having, as you said, "the potentiallity to be one of the best places for photographers to be around". <b>"Photographers"</b>. Not would be politicians and social critics.<br><br>So let's keep the OT forum the way it is: closed. And since it doesn't serve any purpose, let's go one step further and remove it.

<p>Q.G you seem never to understand, that we "photographers" are also citizens and that great photography often is great because it says something central about the societies we live in. Being aware of and understanding our societies is more often than not an inherent part of being a good photographer (outside family shots and parts of nature photography).<br>

If off topic discussion really do not interest you personally, Q.G, which seems to be the case, nothing is easier than not reading it or contributing to such a the forum. Forbidding others to have such discussions is censorship. </p>

And as well rounded citiziens who understand all facets of life we do know that we don't go to the grocery to have our blood pressure checked nor to a museum to discuss the fineries of Italian wine. We also do not go to the photo shop to discuss international politics. Despite the fact that all these things, and more, are part of what we are and what we value. Censorship?<br><br>Did you, one of the prominent contributors to the Off Topic Forum, notice that you again put your point of view forward as an ad hominem? The thing that made the Off Topic Forum such a fun place to be?<br>Keep it shut. It is out of place on Photo.net. Remove it, for it only provides a place for people to vent their frustrations through rants.

<p>I actually do discuss politics with my local grocer who happens to be of arab origin and knows alot about international politics of the middle East, and with my local tailor who is of Kurdish Armenian origin and I also discuss national politics with my butcher who has extreme right affinities so different from mine; and I do frequently go to politically oriented debates in museums around in the town. Politics is part of life and not something you can hide away in administrative enclaves of your liking. Italian wine and even better, French wine, I discuss with anyone with knowledge, experience, and connections, wherever I happen to meet them...</p>

<p>The off-topic forum had an extremely frequent discussion about food and exchanges of recipes, which was appreciated by many, and yes! they were photographers, and, yes! there are so many other places on Internet where such discussions can take place - So What ? PN is where these people happened to meet with common areas of interest.</p>

<p>Q.G, ad hominem marked discussions is happening in all forums of PN daily and all the time. It is how discussions are made between engaged contributors. Nothing wrong with that if we wish to communicate and not just inform each other about our viewpoints.<br /> <br /> Anyway, Q.G, this is not the place to continue our exchange. We would need an open Off Topic forum for that to be relevant. You could start a thread on the subject, as you like. This is a Site Help forum, so back to my question on: What happens? Waiting for an answer from the administration</p>

<p>I think I got it - with a little help from Gertrude Stein:</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>There ain't no answer. There ain't gonna be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer.</em><br>

<em> </em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Or am I wrong ?</p>

<p>Anders, maybe admin have more pressing issues to address or perhaps the matter is still in discussion, so you might be right - no answer, for now, is the answer. </p>

<p>I'm sure we will be informed at some point. </p>

<p>Michael you are without doubt right, but it is bad site strategy to be totally dumb on the ongoing efforts if the objective is to be supported by the members during the process and on the possible future result.<br>

I'm sure we are several on PN who have experiences from responsibilities for similar processes of change and improvements of organisations and companies. None communication has always been a losers strategy. But still let's hope for a miracle.</p>

<p>I don't think its reasonable to assume that a photographic site should feel under any obligation to provide a forum or space for the discussion of things not connected with photography. Especially when those discussions tend towards the acrimonious, unpleasant, and excessively personal. I think its perfectly reasonable to expect people who want that facility to find it elsewhere. And that's how I'd interpret the forums cancellation and subsequent silence. </p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"And that's how I'd interpret the forums cancellation and subsequent silence."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>David, it matters little to me on the outcome of Anders' question, however, one can also interpret the subsequent silence to be site wide, demonstrably attributable to the forum cancellation. </p>

<p>For whatever reason, a "new" climate is palpable on PN--noticeable not just to me, but to a number of others with whom I have spoken. That climate has admittedly been here for a while, and therefore represents something that is not necessarily "new," but the site seems increasingly moribund to me. Perhaps it is simply due to the fact that more and more people are shooting cell phone photos or posting to Facebook. I do know that many good photographers who have been regulars here for years are over at Facebook--or on some serious photo site besides this one. In any case, they are not posting here very often. I miss them. If I see their posts on Facebook, I rarely see a sustained technical or artistic or philosophical discussion.</p>

<p>A serious photographer friend of mine said to me moments ago on the phone, "Photo.net just isn't fun anymore." I would never presume that that is because of the disappearance of the Off Topic forum, but something that speaks of the end of a genuine community seems to have happened. We can speak, yes, but no one listens. </p>

<p>I personally never spent a lot of time discussing politics here (on the Off Topic forum), since that is what I do every day in the college classroom for a living. At the same time, however, I do sense that a somewhat more repressive and non-communicative order is in charge now, and that that is one reason that people are leaving the site--not necessarily canceling memberships, but just not spending a lot of time here. These are admittedly personal impressions that I cannot back up with hard data, but it is hard not to get the sense that the site has changed--and not for the better.</p>

<p>If we were losing the contributions only of newbies, that would be one thing, but some of the best people just don't seem to want to post here anymore, or at least not very often.</p>

<p>My observations, though admittedly impressionistic, indicate to me at least that the climate at Photo.net is different, and not for the better. I thought that it was only me, that perhaps I had lost my own passion, but I am not at all certain that it is only about myself. The site does seem to have changed. We do seem to have a less responsive administration. Our presence as contributors here seems increasingly irrelevant--and unappreciated. The sense of community has been damaged.</p>

<p>If Photo.net were a building, I would have to say that I hear a few footsteps echoing through the hollow corridors, but that is all. The vitality is gone. Is that a projection of my own psychological state at the moment? Perhaps, but it is interesting that others are saying similar things--typically off the site.</p>

<p>As for the Off Topic forum itself, it might have been high maintenance, but its creation raised expectations. Those expectations have been dashed. </p>

<p>Photo of the Week is still buried, not on the front page. I rarely bother with it.</p>

<p>The site has been sanitized.</p>

<p>Some discerning intellects are going to notice that sanitizing tendency. They won't make a big noise upon exiting. We will just look around one day and find, I fear, that most of the interesting people who have had something worthwhile to say--or to post as a photo--have left.</p>

<p>The site still has a lot of strengths, but I do believe that is isn't the same site that it was not so long ago, for whatever reason.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

<p>Well said, Lanni, I perfectly agree. Believe me, also I feel the same "moribond" feeling wandering around in the few forums I still visit. The Off-Topic forum tragicomedy is just an example.</p>

<p>I'm one of those who refuse to use facebook or other too large so-called social networks (privacy issues), but have moved my main works and main contributions to other sites, that are way more responsive to what I'm doing and where I find more inspiration. They are also places where I do get an answer within hours to any stupid question I might formulate and any suggestion I might make.</p>

<p>Where are everybody in the Photonet administration ? Are they still there ? What are they doing ?</p>

<p>I would suggest, that all those who still do care, get together to call on the administration to make an urgent DECLARATION ! ! ! ! A sign of life ! What is going on ? ?</p>

<p>Thank you all for your concern on our well being. We are not bringing back off-topic for the many reasons we have stated before. This is a site about photography and not a place to discuss 99% of what took place in the off-topic forum, its really that simple. </p>

<p>Our time over the last year largely has been working with developers and designers to build you all a new place to call home. One that will be more visually appealing and easier to navigate for new users and to attract those that might have gone elsewhere. The sense of community does not come from administration, it comes from each of you and how you conduct yourself here. Make meaningful comments, engage your audience, try new things that are suggested by others that inspire you, become a better photographer. Its easy to point fingers, but everyone should look in the mirror before they do so and ask themselves if they have done everything they can do for their community. Many of those that like to complain should ask not what photo.net can do for you, but what you can do for photo.net. Start with you, if everyone did that we would have the community we all want and will strive for.</p>

<p>I encourage you to revisit the survey we conducted this past fall. What makes photo.net unique compared to other photography related sites? In a word....YOU. You are what makes us different. If you care about photo.netyou will treat this like your neighborhood and you will act as though you live here. Take a moment to reflect on your contributions to your community. Be here for the right reasons. <br /><strong>Summary of survey which we referenced daily in building the new site</strong><br /><br />The majority of respondents were the most invested users: photographers that have been on the site 1+ years and are currently paying subscribers. The primary demographic was a North American male, equally divided among the age range of 30-64 and a very wide household income range.<br>

<strong>What members would like changed: </strong><br />The respondents welcome change. Many are threatening to leave if we don’t change the site. Included in the survey was this open-ended essay question: <strong><em>If you could change one thing about photo.net, what would it be? </em></strong>The most frequent answers are:</p>

<ul>

<li>General aesthetic (“Whenever I want to go back to 1996, I visit the site.”)</li>

<li>Ratings system</li>

<li>Better upload process</li>

<li>Better overall site organization</li>

<li>A change to the overall “tone” and civility of the grump old men, which is something we’ve actively been trying to change.</li>

</ul>

<p>Other common themes involved the dislike of the overly complex navigation, larger photo display, upload compression lowering the quality of the photos, not being able to opt out of nudes, a better/less confusing home page, and allowing for a better mobile experience.<br>

<strong>What is frequented the most? Forums are #1. </strong><br />One common fear is that we’ll change the forums too much (many are worried that we’ll give them a black site with white writing like DPReview), and Chris has already made sure to keep the forums very similar to what they are now. The reason this is key is because, when asked which parts of the site are most frequented, the #1 answer was “General Forums.” The other most frequented parts of the site are: Photo Gallery, Photo Critique Forum, Top Rated Photos, and Articles (combined review and learning).<br /><strong>Most important updates:</strong><br />When asked what the most important updates are, “Improving the overall dated look” was #1. Closely following were: more exposure, views, and critiques; making the images larger; and upload experience. <br /><a href="/photography-news-forum/00c8fG" rel="nofollow">More here</a></p>

<p>Apart from the insults, thanks, Glenn, at least for having answer our request.<br>

I can assure you that noone I know around here "like to complain". We are many who worry about what happens with Photonet who have contributed to making the site an interesting and engaging place to be active, as photographers and as individuals with many common interests. Personally, I have over time contributed to this site with more than 12.000 forum postings. Less than 20 could be characterized as "complains", I would believe.</p>

<p>Anders my comments above were in no way shape or form intended to be insults. However it appears as though you have interpreted it that way so please accept my apologies. Thank you for taking the time to reflect on your contributions and I look forward to seeing your next 12,000+ forum postings (minus the 20 complaints).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The sense of community does not come from administration, it comes from each of you and how you conduct yourself here.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>People at the top cannot create a good climate or a good tone, but they can destroy it.</p>

<p>This site needs new leadership--fast.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

<p>Thank you for your honesty. I'm not quite sure how my posts have destroyed the tone of the site but maybe I am not understanding your point. </p>