The business of Wedding Photography... Help and Advice Needed.

<p>Hi there,<br>

I am posting this message to get some feedback from you guys about starting up my wedding photography business.<br>

Keeping it brief... I did 10 weddings for free to build up my portfolio... I then built up my website and researched the industry and took as much as i could in. My prices start at £1050 including all images on a DVD.<br>

What I am worried about though is am I charging too much considering I am starting up in business or does this seem a fair starting point? Because I keep reading in many places I should charge what I feel my work is worth?<br>

I would also like any feedback on how easy you find it to navigate around my site and also feedback on the images on it.<br>

<a href="http://www.cbweddings.co.uk">http://www.cbweddings.co.uk</a><br>

I would really appreciate it.<br>

Regards<br />Craigh</p>

<p>First of all, how did you arrive at the 1050 mark? I mean, is that the result of some level of financial analysis which indicated that at this price level you covered all your expenses, your costs, taxes, insurance and so on and so forth and left over enough to compensate you for your time? If that is the case, then your price is fine - as long as there are people willing to pay it. You see, photography, much like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder, and as such nobody can tell you you're charging too much or too little.</p>

<p>However, if the figure is arbitrary, then you should seriously go back to the drawing board. Sit down with a financial planner/consultant, make a solid business plan, account for ALL those costs 99% of the people just stating out NEVER do, include cost of money and then see if the figure still stands. Use your experience to judge how long it will take you to complete a wedding (including post processing and delivery) and take that into account too.</p>

<p>Whoever said that the business of photography has NOTHING to do with photography was wiser than any of us give him/her credit for. There have been literally dozens of posts here with advice for someone just starting out - hell, I've written more than enough myself here...;-) Check them out, read them carefully and you;ll have most of your answers (and maybe even more).</p>

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<p>Whoever said that the business of photography has NOTHING to do with photography</p>

 

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<p>Thanks Marios, that was me :)...and others who recognize the difference.<br>

It is a basic concept that I will hammer on every time I see this sort of question.</p>

<p>Craigh,<br>

Before I forget. Those 10 free weddings you did?...Don't provide those people as references to new clients. Use the images, but do not allow your new prospects contact with them. Why?<br>

I can hear it now, "Oh ya, he did my wedding for free."..and now all of a sudden you want how much?</p>

<p>As so much has been written and reinforced by many, I'll be brief so you can research these topics.</p>

<p>1) Develop a business plan. (This is the most difficult aspect)<br>

2) Develop a marketing plan.<br>

3) Research your competition.<br>

4) Answer the question "why should I hire you?"</p>

<p>If you feel your images will be enough to keep the profits rolling, you would be wrong.</p>

<p>I've seen better work than yours and I've seen work far worse.<br>

In both instances, I've seen the great and not so great photographer make a lot of money.</p>

 

<p>Craigh,<br>

Length of experience should not be a basis for your fees. There are many "seasoned" photographers who may not deliver the quality of work and service that you do. Listen to the others above....-TED :-)</p>

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<p>Whoever said that the business of photography has NOTHING to do with photography</p>

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<p>I'm not so sure that I buy into that. For me, it has everything to do with photography, and the business follows. Sure, you have to put a lot of work into the business, marketing etc. aspects, but I think they should follow the photography. It's 80% about the photography, 20% about the business.</p>

<p>So:</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>1) Develop a business plan. (This is the most difficult aspect)<br /> 2) Develop a marketing plan.</p>

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<p>I'm with General von Moltke on this: "No plan survives contact with the enemy". By all means have a plan, think things through as much as you can, make contacts, market etc. But real life won't follow your plan. Don't expect it to. To take another (pseudo-)military aquote, courtesy of Clint Eastwood this time: "You're Marines now. You adapt. You overcome. You improvise.<em>"</em></p>

<p>Plans are fun to draw up in idle moments, and bank managers like them, but don't put too much faith in them yourself. Market, network, get work wherever you can find it, save money, invest it wisely, work your butt off.<em> </em><br>

<em><br /></em></p>

 

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<p>3) Research your competition.</p>

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<p>And then try and do something a bit different.</p>

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<p> </p>

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<p>4) Answer the question "why should I hire you?</p>

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<p>Because of your photography, and because you do something a bit different. Obsess about how to make the photography better, make sure you show that photography, make friends, and sooner or later the business will follow.</p>

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<p>What I am worried about though is am I charging too much considering I am starting up in business or does this seem a fair starting point?</p>

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<p>Whilst you remain worried about this and display such a lack confidence in yourself, you will not give your business an even chance of survival.</p>

<p>To keep it brief and to the point: you need a Bloody Good Mirroring.</p>

<p>Bend over give yourself a good boot in the pants, dust yourself off and get out and begin marketing and selling your product and skill.</p>

<p>Do you think that Andrew Strauss stepped onto the Adelaide Oval, with doubt, like you have?</p>

<p> </p>

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<p>I would also like any feedback on how easy you find it to navigate around my site and also feedback on the images on it.</p>

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<p>The website was easy for me to navigate.<br>

The images (comment as an overall impression):<br>

I found too many B&W. I like B&W photography, but I question whether having so many is a good selling tool, when starting up a business?<br>

I found too many were centre centric compositionally, but most were clean and balanced and most conveyed a good feeling and a sense of Wedding and Occasion.<br>

I question a few on focus.<br>

Some of the B&W conversions lack mid-tone contrast, which is a comment I make often. I don’t think B&W is understood properly by many who have only used the digital medium – this comment might apply to you, I don’t know. <br>

Some of what you scribed for your website, contradicts what you have written here: get to that mirror, is my best advice.</p>

<p>WW </p>

<p>There is no right or wrong here. Simon's 80-20 split may be his own way of doing things. This is not something that has a formula. There are many who are making lots of money in photography doing 20-80. Are they right or wrong? If a formula works for you and you're happy, it's right....-TED :-)</p>

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<p>There is no right or wrong here. Simon's 80-20 split may be his own way of doing things. This is not something that has a formula</p>

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<p>You're right of course. The 80:20 thing was just something I pulled off the top of my head and is pretty meaningless. In practise I spend more time than that on the business side. But I've increasingly come to the conclusion that that's wrong - it's best to concentrate efforts on the photography, the rest will follow (with some hard work of course).</p>

 

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<p>"You're Marines now. You adapt. You overcome. You improvise.<em>"</em></p>

 

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<p>Well, it sounds good in the movies."Mr Smith Goes to Washington" is a nice movie, though I fear politics does not work out the way portrayed in that movie.</p>

<p>Simon, your advice is contradictory.<br>

You say place emphasis on the photography and then go on to say work hard, have a plan etc...</p>

<p>I know of not a single person in business, photography or anything else that can or will survive on the 20/80...or 20% biz, 80% photography; it is simply not going to happen.</p>

<p>Now if someone is simply seeking a little extra income, sure, it can work...but without some serious business acumen and practicing cost analysis, budgeting, marketing etc?...I think not.</p>

<p>Without a plan all we have is a wish.<br>

W/o a map we will never get there, and even if we do, how do we know we've arrived.</p>

<p>Voodoo economics is the worst way to conduct business.</p>

<p>I primarily earn my living in editorial stock, although the past 4 yrs have presented commercial opportunities.<br>

After 20 yrs earning my living in this, I can tell you I work just as hard now as I did 20 yrs ago. Just maintaining my long term clients is full time work. </p>

<p>If anyone is serious about their business, they WILL develop a business plan, a marketing plan..stick with it, adjust it, fine tune it, analyze it every 3 to 4 months.</p>

<p>If you can't track your progress, you are not conducting business in a serious sense.</p>

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<p>"Voodoo economics is the worst way to conduct business."</p>

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<p>:) I'll borrow that, please.</p>

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<p>You say place emphasis on the photography and then go on to say work hard, have a plan etc...</p>

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<p>Exactly. The photography comes first, then you work hard to make it happen and get the work in front of people.</p>

 

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<p>I know of not a single person in business, photography or anything else that can or will survive on the 20/80...or 20% biz, 80% photography; it is simply not going to happen.</p>

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<p>I know a few, and they are the most successful ones I know.</p>

<p>The problem is - the business side is actually easy. It's too seductive. You can spend endless time, effort and money sitting at your computer developing plans, making budgets, sending emails, calculating income and expenditure. It's easier and more mechanical than actually having ideas and going out and taking pictures. You don't even have to think about it too much. But most of the really successful photographers I know of seem to concentrate their efforts on being creative rather than on business plans.</p>

<p>There is little point in intenselymarketing pictures that editors have seen a million times before. It's much easier to do your marketing and draw up a nice profit and loss account (one that actually has profit in it, not just loss) if picture buyers are clamouring at your door. Of course marketing, managing money, and networking is very important - but it's a hundred times easier if it follows the photography rather than the photography follow the marketing. I noticed with some of my favourite photographer friends, that with the most successful ones the picture buyers, curators, agents, clients - come to them.</p>

<p>I keep seeing it - you can send hundreds of emails, market yourself blue in the face, spend many tens of thousands of dollars, and get little or no response. But take something that people really like and want, and you will need to do little marketing, picture editors will be getting in touch with you, people will be paying good money for your pictures, institutions will start funding your personal projects, maybe even if you take really interesting stuff funding your exhibitions. You can use those funded projects and exhibitions as marketing to make income.</p>

<p>I read an interesting interview with Max Wanger a while ago about how he started off as a wedding/engagement photographer. If I remember correctly basically his first foray into it was doing an extremely creative engagement shoot for a well known blogger. Progress from that first shoot to fame seemed to be stellar if that interview was anything to go by (can't immediately find it via Google, but it's probably out there). Worth a hundred business plans, I would have thought.</p>

 

<p>p.s. I should stress I don't mean that the business side isn't important. You need to do it too.</p>

<p>But the photography is the horse, and the business side is the cart. If you put the cart in front of the horse, progress down the road is going to be painfully slow and sooner or later you will land in the ditch.</p>

 

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<p>"the business side is actually easy. It's too seductive"</p>

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<p>:) and that too, please.</p>

 

<p><em>“The 80:20 thing was just something I pulled off the top of my head and is pretty meaningless.”</em><br /><em></em><br />If that's the case, then why even bother to post the comment?</p>

<p>Craigh, the website was pretty easy to navigate however I'd prefer to have some thumbnails on your folio gallery. I agree with WW that the folio is heavy with B&W images. Also suggest that you replace your portrait on your "about" page with one where you are dressed more appropriately and a little more polished/cleaned-up. Not sure just how prestigious the WPJA is but I guess you can sell yourself that way. Good luck.</p>

<p>I can see my website just needs tweeking but i think the real way to get started is to just get out there speaking to vendors etc as William said... I think the thing that has held me back from doing that is i've called a few and I just get told they already deal with a photographer.<br>

I will keep on at it! :)<br>

Thanks<br>

Craigh</p>

<p>No, the comment was aimed at people with the basic intelligence to understand that you can't put a precise percentage on such things and who don't need the blindingly obvious spelling out to them. Don't worry about it David.</p>

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<p>am I charging too much considering I am starting up in business or does this seem a fair starting point?</p>

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<p>That depends upon one thing. Are people hiring you? If so your price is o.k. (and you could possibly increase it or offer more comprehensive packages) If not then you may have to adjust it.</p>

 

<p>I will disagree with Simon in the "the photography is the horse and the business is the cart" as an analogy, simply because while talent in making images is, indeed, paramount, without the business acumen to support, frame and sustain it, it will NEVER make anything more than a little pocket money and MAY end up costing more (say in the event of a lawsuit resulting from non-properly phrased contracts or failure to meet obligations due to scheduling and timing errors).</p>

<p>If anything, and if you do need an analogy, think of the engine in a car. That is what photography is - what provides the power, but without the frame, without the wheels, the steering, the brakes, etc, etc, the engine is nothing more than an engineering marvel and will NOT go anywhere...</p>

<p>Simon, nobody said that you should put business AHEAD of photography in terms of constant prioritisation, simply that you need to address the business issues BEFORE you go out and claim you're a professional photographer AND start charging people for it. Once you have a business system set up and running, trust me, you don't spend all that much time on it - at least not to the extend you mention. Sure, in early autumn you WILL need to send those 500 e-mails to ensure that you have jobs around Xmas time. Sure you will need to socialise with waaaaaay too many people for comfort to ensure your name, personality and approach is known and preferred BEFORE people start calling you up for their wedding.</p>

<p>And you WILL, undoubtedly, need to spend at least 1 or 2 hours a day taking care of your accounts, making sure your invoices go out on time and with the right information, chasing down payments, MAKING payments, trcking down prospects and offers you may have made and so on and so forth. Any professional who ACTUALLY TOLD you s/he did NOT do that I would be highly suspicious of - and the capitals are BECAUSE I know they didn't, simply because, the more successful you are, chances are you spend even MORE time on these "menial" tasks...</p>

<p>Oh, and one final thing: I LOVED the military quote...however, isn't it strange that it came from the FIRST strategic command EVER in the history of warfare to ever created a High Command military council? Whose sole purpose was to plan? And then make plans to back those plans up? And THEN made other plans in case all those OTHER plans failed? Just a thought...;-)</p>

<p>On many occasions, I've stated that wedding photography is pretty much 50/50.....50% photography and 50% everything else; which includes people skills, marketing, networking, and other "business" aspects. I've also recommended that if anyone is serious about the business that their best bet is to network with other established (successful) photographers and to complete some type of apprenticeship with an established (successful) studio....along with joining/participating in a professional organization like PPA and/or WPPI. Mario's analogy with the car above is well thought and spot on.</p>

<p>Craigh, your plan to just get out there and speak with vendors may yield some results. However, you need to be pretty sure that you're prepared to speak with established, successful vendors that have a good deal of experience within the industry. For the most part they've seen the up & coming crowd come and go.....how do you compete with the photographers that they currently refer to?</p>

<p>Also suggest that you read/follow this nearby thread: <a href="../wedding-photography-forum/00XoKW">http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00XoKW</a> and search the archives here at P-net under the marketing category.</p>

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<p>while talent in making images is, indeed, paramount</p>

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<p>Agreed Marios. The proposition near the beginning of this thread that "the business of photography has NOTHING to do with photography" is the wrong approach to be successful. Your "talent in making images is paramount" is the right one. Except of course that mere <em>talent</em> in the making of the images is only the beginning of the photography side of it.</p>

<p>It's not so much a question of counting the number of hours spent on photography versus business, more a question of psychological priorities. The ones who prioritise the creative side are the ones who really succeed. The others bump along the bottom and complain that orders aren't what they used to be (which is heard a lot on this forum).</p>

<p>And of course, the business side needs doing too and takes a lot of time. You're right that you could well spend an hour or two working on accounts every day. But to succeed you need to be working, 10, 12, 14 or more hours a day. It's quite possible to spend several hours a day on business side. But it's all too easy to let the creative side slip.</p>

<p>Concentrating on the creative side is just good business. It means a greatly increased return per £ of marketing, more hits on your website, higher Google ranking, being able to charge higher prices per wedding, marketing is done for you for free (profiles in magazines, word of mouth, blogging), and so on and so forth.</p>

 

<p>The more experienced you are in business, the more you realise that you need to lead with your product or service, not with your ability to do business. Everything Simon observes about leading with photography resonates strongly with me.</p>

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<p>...nobody said that you should put business AHEAD of photography in terms of constant prioritisation, simply that you need to address the business issues BEFORE you go out and claim you're a professional photographer AND start charging people for it.</p>

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<p>Of course, this is certainly true, but it's also not particularly significant. I would view basic business skills as a given, in line with basic photography skills. The problem is those basic business skills are of no use in growing a business. They merely allow you to run one, which is a very different thing.</p>

<p>If someone were spending their time chasing invoices rather than making images I'd think they were in the wrong business. Far better to hire someone who can do those things quicker, more effectively, and at lower cost than the business owner. Photographers will get more return on their time if they spend it on growth activities rather than retail administration.</p>

<p>Successful photographers spend their time making work, showing it to the people they want to hire them, and concentrating on strategic activities that enhance their positioning and exposure. They don't spend their time chasing low value work, or waste energy on basic administration, or dilute their personal focus by taking on incoherent assignments.</p>

<p>Its not rocket science. If you want to make wedding photography your sole source of income then the formula is pretty easy...</p>

<p>Determine whet income you need to live comfortably. Say A$100k pa/40k Pounds <br>

Work out how many weddings you can do in a year. Say 40. Thats $2500 per wedding.<br>

Doing one a week for 40 out of 50 weeks in the year. In our dollars, thats about 1000 pounds per wedding.<br>

Close to what you plan to charge.</p>

<p>Now for the sanity check: Can your market segment handle a fee of 1000 Pounds per wedding, and can you attract enough business to book 40 weddings a year?</p>

<p>A$2500 for a professional job is common here for weddings. And definitley don't give the customer ALL your images. 50 is plenty, including 5 fine art quality prints.</p>

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<p>Say A$100k pa/40k Pounds <br /> Work out how many weddings you can do in a year. Say 40. Thats $2500 per wedding</p>

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<p>You forgot to deduct, let's say, somewhere around A$75K/£30k pounds for business expenses? That leaves you with only A$25k/£10k pounds profits.</p>

 

<p>Thats a good way to work it out and that really helps actually. I have been finding it so hard to settle on a price because I am so new to this business. someone said in an earlier post believe in my work and just get out there and sell myself basically but I still feel I need to know that i'm pricing myself sensibly and not over doing it to the point that people think, "you have only shot 15-20 weddings and your charging that!!".<br>

The thing is i could live off even £20k per year so I don't know whether to charge say maybe even £750 until im established and people start to recommend me or should I go straight in at £1050 for my basic package?<br>

Any suggestions? Did any of you guys start of extremely low or did you go into the market charging full on prices?</p>

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<p>or should I go straight in at £1050 for my basic package?</p>

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<p>So much depends on your local market, so it's hard to know what it can bear. But I would have thought it a reasonable price. Charging too little is not always a good thing - some clients will not appreciate what you do if you are cheap, and some will wonder why you are cheap and avoid you.</p>

<p>15-20 weddings that you have done is quite a respectable number. And it's an <strong><em>awful lot</em></strong> to have done for free. Don't do yourself down thinking you are inexperienced. I started charging a market rate from my second wedding and no regrets. There are people who have been photographing weddings for decades - plenty of experience - but still produce mediocre photos. They don't seem to have any scruples about charging for their work. It's not about how many weddings you do but what kind of work you produce.</p>

<p>You have to do what seems to you to be appopriate. Look at what your competitors are producing and how much they're charging, and go from there.</p>