Sunny 16

I am about to obtain a vintage camera that has no built-in light meter. I'll use a clip-on meter or a Sekonic L-398, but I'd really like to go old-school and try the Sunny 16 rule. This page discusses the Sunny 16 rule. I find something confusing.

 

Assume that when you head out to take photos, that you’re presented with a sunny day. As such, you use the appropriate settings to get a good exposure - an aperture of f/16, an ISO of 200, and a shutter speed of 1/200. But then, imagine that as the day goes on that cloud cover comes in. When you return to your favorite spot to take more photos, you find that you’re now shooting under heavily overcast skies, necessitating the use of the Heavily Overcast f/5.6 Rule.

 

Looking at the chart above, we can see that f/5.6 is three stops wider than f/16. As a result, the shutter speed has to be adjusted by three stops as well to 1/1600 seconds. As a result of these corresponding moves of adding light (via the aperture) and limiting light (via the faster shutter speed), you’re able to achieve an exposure that’s similar to the one you got earlier in the day under sunny skies.

 

OK, I get that if you open the aperture three stops, then you have to reduce the shutter speed three stops. It makes sense that if you're shooting 1/200 on ASA 200 film with an aperture of f/16, then you would need to increase your shutter speed if you open your aperture. But in the example given in the quote, it's no longer sunny. Now there are overcast skies. Since it's not sunny, there is less light. Under heavily overcast skies, opening the aperture to f/5.6 is reasonable; but don't you want to keep your shutter speed the same? Less light outside, you need to let more light inside. In the example, it sounds like f/5.6 at 1/1600 seconds would let in the same amount of light as f/16 at 1/200 seconds -- which is great if you are shooting on a bright day, but not if the skies are dark.

 

Am I missing something? Am I misreading?

I am about to obtain a vintage camera that has no built-in light meter. I'll use a clip-on meter or a Sekonic L-398, but I'd really like to go old-school and try the Sunny 16 rule. This page discusses the Sunny 16 rule. I find something confusing.

 

 

 

OK, I get that if you open the aperture three stops, then you have to reduce the shutter speed three stops. It makes sense that if you're shooting 1/200 on ASA 200 film with an aperture of f/16, then you would need to increase your shutter speed if you open your aperture. But in the example given in the quote, it's no longer sunny. Now there are overcast skies. Since it's not sunny, there is less light. Under heavily overcast skies, opening the aperture to f/5.6 is reasonable; but don't you want to keep your shutter speed the same? Less light outside, you need to let more light inside. In the example, it sounds like f/5.6 at 1/1600 seconds would let in the same amount of light as f/16 at 1/200 seconds -- which is great if you are shooting on a bright day, but not if the skies are dark.

 

Am I missing something? Am I misreading?

No, you are not missing something. You are perfectly correct that under more gloomy conditions you would need to open the aperture if you maintain the same shutter speed. The problem comes in estimating how much, as estimating is exactly what you need to do. There is a common misconception that the Sunny 16 rule is a replacement for a light meter. It is not. It gives you a guide to the correct exposure on a bright, sunny day, and under no other conditions. Any other lighting conditions you have to guess at. That is, it only works for bright, sunny conditions. Here in the UK, I sometimes use F11 instead of 16, when the sun is a bit lower in the sky, or perhaps it’s not really full sun, maybe there is just a hint of haze. So I’m using the known ‘correct’ exposure of 1/ISO at f16, and making an estimate of how much the actual light conditions vary from that ( in this case, 1 stop, or I reckon it’s half as bright as the sunny 16 conditions). The further you get from full sun, the more you have to guess. I have another rule of thumb for miserable, overcast grey mornings, which is ‘wide open at a 30th’ but that really is winging it! I’d get a light meter if I were you. If you shoot a lot, and memorise all your correct exposure settings, you might eventually get half reasonable at guessing a reasonably accurate exposure, but as you are just starting out, I wouldn’t commit precious film to guesswork, unless of course, it is a full sun bright day. Have fun!

Further to the above, does the focal length of the lens have any effect on the basic principle ?

Further to the above, does the focal length of the lens have any effect on the basic principle ?

I don't think so. f16 is f16 regardless of the focal length so the exposure should be the same, as far as I am aware. If you were using a fixed focal length lens and you moved it further from the film plane than its focal length, (like you might do focussing a large format camera for example), then the circular image produced by the lens becomes larger, and the light intensity at any given point reduces per unit area. You need to compensate for this by increasing exposure. In LF terms this is known as 'bellows extension'

Thanks, Stuart - I was thinking more of the difference between a 50mm lens, a 10mm lens and a 400mm lens - while the nominal aperture remains, as you say, constant, would not the change in 'Apparent' field of view (and I am aware that this is not technically correct !) have an effect on the exposure ?

Wherever the OP's quote comes from, it's quite wrong. If you open up the lens by three stops, and increase the shutter speed by three stops, the exposure is the same. So the pictures taken in dull conditions would be heavily underexposed.

 

I suppose changing focal lengths would cover different areas of the scene, which might demand different exposures.

Am I missing something? Am I misreading?

 

No, you're not missing anything. You're right; that author is wrong. If that source page allows comments I'd guess that the author has been taken to task pretty thoroughly for it.

 

Further to the above, does the focal length of the lens have any effect on the basic principle ?

 

No. Stuart is exactly right, including about bellows compensation.

 

would not the change in 'Apparent' field of view (and I am aware that this is not technically correct !) have an effect on the exposure ?

 

No. Consider it this way: imagine that you have a 4x5" camera, and have set it properly. The 4x5" film is properly exposed. Now, if instead of 4x5" film you had placed a piece of 35mm in the same place, then it would also have been properly exposed.

 

Now, one might expect that the exposure should change due to the magnification of the lens - a 100mm lens essentially doubles the image magnification of a 50mm lens. But the f-number exactly compensates for this by being relative to the focal length.

. . . This page discusses the Sunny 16 rule. I find something confusing. . . it's no longer sunny. Now there are overcast skies. Since it's not sunny, there is less light. Under heavily overcast skies, opening the aperture to f/5.6 is reasonable; but don't you want to keep your shutter speed the same? Less light outside, you need to let more light inside. In the example, it sounds like f/5.6 at 1/1600 seconds would let in the same amount of light as f/16 at 1/200 seconds - Am I missing something? Am I misreading?

 

As already mentioned, you are not missing anything and you are correct.

 

If the scene is heavily overcast then f/5.6 @ 1/200s @ ISO 200 IS INDEED a reasonable GUESS at the correct exposure.

 

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The quote appears to come from here: [LINK] and the quoted area is indeed incorrect information.

 

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There are many misinformed attempts to explain and quote the F/16 Rule.

 

In my opinion, the 'Rule' as I learned it, stands in good stead, (My CAPS now for emphasis):

 

"For a FRONT LIT Scene photographed in BRIGHT SUNLIGHT (i.e. hard and distinct shadows), located between the TROPICS, one and half hours after sunrise and one and an half hours before sunset use the F/16 Rule - F/16 @ 1/ISO @ ISO

 

"For a SIDE LIT Scene (e.g. a side lit portrait) photographed in bright sunlight, located between the TROPICS . . Etc - open up ONE STOP

 

"For a BACK LIT Scene (e.g. a back lit portrait) photographed in bright sunlight, located between the TROPICS . . Etc - open up TWO STOPS

 

"For a Light Cloud Scene (i.e. shadows but not distinct)., located between the TROPICS . . . etc - open up ONE STOP

 

"For an Overcast Scene (i.e. no shadows but light as 'open shade'), located between the TROPICS . . . etc - open up TWO STOPS

 

"For an Heavily Overcast scene (i.e. cloud cover, not like 'open shade), located between the TROPICS . . . etc - open up THREE STOPS

 

“For a Dark Scene (i.e. HEAVY Cloud Cover – Rain looming located between the TROPICS . . . etc - open up FOUR STOPS

 

***

 

Note that the ‘F/16 Rule’ is a GUIDE – not a rule. (As mentioned it is not a replacement for accurate light metering.)

 

Also note that it is dependent upon the time of day and the location of the photography.

 

Also note that the ‘Rule’ (in Sunlight) is a guide for a best exposure of the main Subject – i.e. the Subject areas lit by the sun, so for example, opening up one stop for a side lit subject in bright sunlight is to accommodate the SHADOW area at the expense of the SUNLIT area of the Subject.

 

Remember also that this ‘Rule’ was concocted when Film was King and there are latitudes in Film and the developing of it.

 

With another experience W&P Photographer and long time colleague, I’ve made some extensive studies of the Rule (the History and also the Application) – it appears that (as stated above) the rule is reasonably accurate in San Francisco and also Sydney (about the same latitudes either side of the equator). Our data supports the view that in WINTER the ‘Rule’ will under expose by somewhere between ⅓ and ⅔ Stop, but, also if the time of shooting is extended to be about TWO AND ONE HALF HOURS after sunrise and before sunset it remains quite accurate.

 

As already mentioned, the ‘guessing’ about the degree of ‘cloud cover’ is an element and that comes with experience: that stated be aware that your eye and brain will adjust to different scenes and as such the human eye and brain are generally not very reliable light meters.

 

There’s been a lot of discussion about the F/16 Rule on Photo.net recently, mostly all generated by people getting into using old Film Cameras. Personally I see value (or fun) in doing things the long way around, (for example I quite often use chisels and a mallet, etc and not power tools when working wood).

 

But it is worth mentioning that if you have a Digital Camera, you can use it to get a reasonable light meter reading for the picture that you want to make.

 

WW

I’d get a light meter if I were you.

 

I seem to have accumulated a number of light meters, mostly Minolta Auto Meter IV Fs. I have at least three of those, all set to 24 fps Cine. :p I have the Sekonic L-398 as well, and that's the one I'll use for still photography. With the built-in light meters in my SLRs, and with the Minolta light meters for the cine cameras, I've never had to estimate exposure. Now that I'm getting a vintage camera (and I have a Zenit whose light meter I'm not sure about), it seems like a good time to learn how to estimate with Sunny 16.

 

Thank you, stuart_pratt, and everyone else who confirmed my suspicions. I may not take a lot of photos, but that quote didn't pass the smell test.

 

Here's a question about this forum. In the OP, 'This page' is linked to the Sunny 16 article. At my normal (non-photography) hangout, links are automatically underlined and also blue. The link here looks like the rest of the text. How do you highlight links on this site?

The Sunny 16 concept, for many years, was printed as the exposure guide on the inside of Kodak film boxes. While I'll agree that a good light meter trumps a Sunny 16 guess, the majority of photographers incorrectly assume that the light meter reading is what they should expose the film at...but fail to take into consideration that the light meter will average everything in the field of its view to a 12-18% gray, which may or may not be what the photographer desires. It all boils down to understanding the interrelationships of the factors influencing exposure (and also development, but that is a different topic). For years I used both incident andreflective light meters and compared their (adjusted)readings to Sunny 16 guidelines, and then began guessing exposure before measuring it, and finally for about 85% of my work, going without a meter, fully confident in my judgement. For those less confident of their skills - the Ultimate Exposure Guide, AKA The Jiffy Exposure Calculator, which has been commercially available for over 50 years and free on the internet to make your own, is a great tool to help those who want to use the Sunny 16 concept in a variety of lighting situations.

The old reliable chart printing on Kodak film box and film data sheet.

 

Just use your meter and stop d*cking about with guesswork.

I have plenty of other cameras with built-in meters.

. . . In the OP, 'This page' is linked to the Sunny 16 article. At my normal (non-photography) hangout, links are automatically underlined and also blue. The link here looks like the rest of the text.

 

There are a different ways.

 

I type the plain text then bold that text and change its colour using the Icons at the top of the commentary box in which I am writing. The Icon for colour change is "A" if you hover the mouse over it you'll see 'Text Color'. Once that text is the colour I want (and bolded), I then highlight it using the mouse and add the link to that highlighted section, using the Link Icon.

 

If you understand BB Code editing, then you can use that: the Icon to change to BB Code is the Writing Page overlayed with a spanner, at the top right of the commentary box.

 

WW

Just use your meter and stop d*cking about with guesswork.

What fun is that? Just like you said just use the digital camera and stop d*cking about the film cameras.

Interesting discussion (or discursion) - my thanks to those who cleared up my own query, and to those who went into such detail concerning the application of the 'Rule'. Not only am I now wiser, but also far better informed.

gordonbennet , i ask you.

 

someone is taking the mickey.

 

(what is wrong with this site?)

 

 

Surely participants may choose whatever name they desire to be known by ? Some of us use our own, proud, family name, others prefer a pseudonym, which may be humorous or have personal connotations for them. And what, pray, is wrong with 'taking the mickey' ? :)

 

Or was your own posting intended as tongue in cheek humour ? :):)

I often use Sunny 16 even with my DSLR since I always shoot manual, and it gets me in the ballpark until I can check the image on the LCD. For 120 and 4x5 I would usually be shooting my film camera alongside it and simply transpose the exposure reading from my camera to the larger format. Neither had a light meter.

 

 

Thirteen years ago when I got my first DSLR I was really looking forward to using it with the 4x5 and 120 to nail exposure every time. Far more useful than any meter, but then I went and sold them.

 

 

I do hope to be back into 120 by the end of the year and intend to use my DSLR for all metering requirements. So, if you already have a digital camera of some sort you could do the same.

What fun is that? Just like you said just use the digital camera and stop d*cking about the film cameras.

Did I even mention film cameras?

They've mostly had light meters built in or available as accessories since the late 1950s anyway.

 

A few home truths about "Sunny 16":

If you live outside of the tropics the brightness of full noon sunshine varies by at least one stop throughout the seasons and is latitude dependant. It also rarely hits a brightness level demanding f/16 @ 1/ISO. On top of that, just a small amount of mist, barely visible high cloud, pollution, etc. can knock another stop off that - even if the shadows look hard and the sun is high. The brightness of noon sunlight can go higher than 'average' as well. If the sun just catches the edge of a light cloud, the cloud can effectively spread and diffuse the sunlight and increase its brightness.

 

That's just what can happen to supposedly constant noon sunlight. Check it with a Luxmeter if you doubt it. Oh, but that would ruin the 'fun' of getting a duff exposure I suppose.

 

Once the sun disappears behind a cloud or starts to dip toward the horizon, the situation gets even more variable and there's no sensible table that can take care of every natural lighting condition at every latitude.

 

Who would insist on regularly carrying two sticks and tinder, and rubbing them together to get a flame, when lighters and matches have been invented? That would be classed as extreme eccentricity, not a demonstration of skill or experience.

Edited April 22, 2019 by rodeo_joe|1

Did I mention film cameras?

A few home truths about 'Sunny 16':

If you live outside of the tropics the brightness of full noon sunshine varies by at least one stop throughout the year and is latitude dependant. On top of that, just a small amount of mist, wispy cloud, pollution, etc. can knock another stop off that - even if the shadows look hard and the sun is high. The brightness of light can go higher than 'average' as well. If the sun just catches the edge of light cloud, the cloud can effectively spread and diffuse the sunlight and increase its brightness.

 

That's just what can happen to supposedly constant noon sunlight. Check it with a Luxmeter if you doubt it. Oh, but that would ruin the 'fun' of getting a duff exposure I suppose.

 

Once the sun disappears behind a cloud or starts to dip toward the horizon, the situation gets even more variable and there's no table that can take care of every natural lighting condition at every latitude.

 

Who would insist on carrying two sticks and tinder, and rubbing them together to get a flame, when lighters and matches have been invented? That would be classed as extreme eccentricity, not a demonstration of skill or experience.

 

Eccentricity is also fun.

when lighters and matches have been invented? That would be classed as extreme eccentricity, not a demonstration of skill or experience.

People do things that amuse them - have done throughout history. Countless examples - question is open, answer subjective. Keeping life fun.

People do things that amuse them - have done throughout history. Countless examples - question is open, answer subjective. Keeping life fun.

Never used the two sticks and a tinder but back when I was still smoking I used a 50mm f/1.4 and it works fine.

I think the worst thing about using Sunny 16 is that it only applies when the light is at its least interesting.

 

And isn't using a lightmeter fun?

If you're going to use an antiquated camera for fun, where's the difference?

. . .

And isn't using a lightmeter fun?

If you're going to use an antiquated camera for fun, where's the difference?

 

Clever.

The Sunny 16 concept, for many years, was printed as the exposure guide on the inside of Kodak film boxes. While I'll agree that a good light meter trumps a Sunny 16 guess, the majority of photographers incorrectly assume that the light meter reading is what they should expose the film at...but fail to take into consideration that the light meter will average everything in the field of its view to a 12-18% gray, which may or may not be what the photographer desires. It all boils down to understanding the interrelationships of the factors influencing exposure (and also development, but that is a different topic). For years I used both incident andreflective light meters and compared their (adjusted)readings to Sunny 16 guidelines, and then began guessing exposure before measuring it, and finally for about 85% of my work, going without a meter, fully confident in my judgement. For those less confident of their skills - the Ultimate Exposure Guide, AKA The Jiffy Exposure Calculator, which has been commercially available for over 50 years and free on the internet to make your own, is a great tool to help those who want to use the Sunny 16 concept in a variety of lighting situations.

 

Yes.

 

First, sunny 16 will be better than a light meter under those less than ideal conditions.

 

An unusually dark or bright background will fool an averaging meter.

 

A normal colored subject in full sun will be properly exposed following sunny 16, even with

an unusual background.

 

For these reasons, meters with center weighting, and with reduced weighting away from

center more often get good results.

 

With subjects in shade, and background in sun, sunny 16 will expose for the background,

a spot meter might (depending on subject and spot size) get it right. Best is to get close

enough to meter on the subject, then back off for the actual exposure. Understand that

the background will be overexposed in this case.

 

If you need to get both subject and background reasonably well exposed, meter for both,

and set the aperture about half way between the two settings.

 

Negative films usually have more latitude for overexposure than underexposure, so under

some conditions, you do better exposing to the less lit parts.

 

Also, sunny 16 is good for recognizing when a light meter fails. If it suddenly gives exposures

way off sunny 16, time to check it.