Studio Lighting

<p>Hello all. I have a question that seems to have been beat to death on here... I've searched the forums but haven't found anyone asking it quite the same way, so I figured I would start a new thread and see where it leads.<br>

I've been into photography a few years now, make a few bucks on the side with it, and I want to take my work to the next level. I've primarily been shooting portraits and a lot of models/fashion/glam with a 7D, 5DII, and L glass. I do zero weddings. I shoot 25/75 studio and on location. I've been using speedlites but I feel that I've outgrown them and they've become a limiting factor in my photography. I want to invest in a lighting set up that will be functional, will allow me to grow as a photographer, and will cover a wide variety of shooting situations. I'd like a fairly portable set-up that won't require a helper to move it around, but at the same time it doesn't need to fit in a backpack or on my waist. I'd like power enough for mid-day work, I'd like dependable triggering, and unlike all the other posts I've read on here, I don't mind investing money for a good set-up. I would be hard pressed to afford a full array of Broncolor type gear, but at the same time, I don't want to be like everyone else posting and want it all for $600-1000 bucks. I know a good set-up is measured in thousands, not hundreds.... and I'm prepared to do that. I believe for the most part that you get what you pay for to a large extent. My tiny speedlite modifers will be useless so I'm basically starting from scratch. If anyone would care to make suggestions for filling out an order of lights, modifers, etc, I would really appreciate the advice. I'd like to work out a package deal so getting what I need to start with and at the same time, grow into would be super helpful advice. I've rented and tried a lot of lights but am still lost. I can't even decide between pack and head or monolights. I've had several people suggest Einsteins, but I keep hearing about so-so construction which doesn't inspire me for location shooting and multiple set-ups and teardowns. Sorry for being long-winded. It just seems that most of these types of questions are asked but not enough info is given to provide the experienced members here with enough info to answer. I sincerely appreciate any and all advice and thank you for reading. :)</p>

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<p>I shoot 25/75 studio and on location</p>

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<p>With 75% location shooting, you'll probably be better served with a battery pack system. Yes?</p>

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<p>I'd like power enough for mid-day work...<br /> I've rented and tried a lot of lights but am still lost. I can't even decide between pack and head or monolights.</p>

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<p>Please, throw us a bone. Which lights didn't work for you...and why not? You know...process of elimination.</p>

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<p>It just seems that most of these types of questions are asked but not enough info is given to provide the experienced members here with enough info to answer.</p>

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<p>You nailed it!</p>

<p>Just for what it's worth, I've not a single complaint about the build on the Einsteins, and continue to be very impressed by the way they behave. Toss in one of the new Vagabond units and the Cyber Commander system and you're still so far ahead, price-wise, compared to other systems that you can (if you're worried) still afford a couple of back-up units to sit in the Peli case. Which you'd want with <em>any</em> system, anyway. But doing it with those new Buff lights means lots of $ leftover for better modifiers, proper C-stands and booms, etc.<br /><br />Just the ability to shift the units from speed-oriented to color-temp-oriented behavior is, by itself, worth the price. The complete remote control wonderfulness is something you won't really appreciate until you're working outside and have a key light ten feet up a tree on a superclamp, or you're lighting up a cabin window from the inside, in the background, 50 feet away, as the sun's going down and you need precision control over that and your subject lighting. Can't emphasize enough how liberating and creativity-enhancing that system is. I've never given the construction a second thought - neither they nor lights that cost five times as much are indestructible.</p>

<p>@Marc Thank you for the reply. I agree, battery packs would probably be the way to go. I do have a nice Honda generator, but I feel the noise is distracting. I could live with it if the AC lights were "oh so much" better though. :) It's not that any of the lights worked or didn't work. I guess they just didn't scream out "Buy me, Buy me.." If you walk into a rental place to get lights, 90% of the time you're going to walk out with Profoto lights. :) I liked them, they were built solid, and the modifers provided nice light, but I couldn't help but wonder how much I would be paying for a name. I saw the price of their grids and almost fainted..... I tried the Bees, they were okay but same thing, didn't blow my doors off... Fiddled with some old Speedos but again nothing that excited me all that much.</p>

<p>@Matt Thanks for your thoughts. I'm really glad you mentioned the Einsteins. You have to love the price and features. Buff modifers are priced great too. I had heard a lot of complaints about clamps, lightstands, Cyber Commander not working well outdoors, modifer quality, etc... A person never knows what to believe and what not to. Some people that complain don't have the sense God gave a goat and it's hard to filter through at times.... and some people seem to live to find fault as well. It seems like you get a lot of bang for your buck, nobody can argue that. I travel a lot and am hard on my gear (as is the TSA it seems)... I've never saw a photoshoot going on at a park or beach where they were using Buff gear and it made me wonder a bit why. I need something that will stand up fairly well to the rigors of location shooting, travel, clumsy models tripping over it, etc... so I was leaning towards Elinchrom, Profoto, Bowens, Hensel, etc.... but wow... I would be eating a lot of baloney and spagetti dinners for the next year or so... :) Do you use Buff modifers as well?</p>

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<p>Studio:</p>

<p>Also, in addition to what Matt said, for studio work, few monolights can dial all the way down to only 4Ws, the way the Einsteins do. I have a 400Ws Dynalite, and sometimes I just can't knock it down enough (I have to slap sheets of ND onto it). An all-Einstein studio with Buff modifiers, and a CyberSync control system, would be a pretty sweet set-up, matched in level of control only by the priceiest Profoto pack-and-head systems. The real value is the price of Buff's modifiers--as much as 1/10th the price of competitors' products. Can't wait to buy one of their large PLMs someday.</p>

<p>Location:</p>

<p>I think two Einsteins, and two to four Vagabond Mini Lithium inverter/batteries (VMLs) would be a great start for location work (Matt: how many full pops from an E640 will you get from a VML?). They have decent output, use the inexpensive Buff modifiers, and are both designed and guaranteed to work well with the VMLs. You won't get a better bang for your buck from any other manufacturer for a battery-powered location lighting set-up.</p>

<p>Yes, I do. I use a couple flavors of his softboxes, just started using his large folding octabox, and also use his white beauty dish. I use his grids, too - both the detachables for the soft/octa-boxes, and the honeycombs for the normal reflectors and the beauty dish. I do have a couple of his stands, which were too cheap to pass up on, early in Alien Bees days (I've also got a couple pieces of his Zeus system, for major horsepower). But when it comes to stands and other grip gear theses days, I'm an Avenger guy. That's one of the Manfrotto companies. Really like their C-stands, booms, and whatnot.<br /><br />Below is the typical Buff triggering scenario. I <em>could</em> use the CC itself as the trigger, but I don't feel the need to have that larger thing in the hot shoe. It's usually in my shirt pocket or bag. Did I mention that you can even turn lights (and modeling lights) off and on remotely? Ah, so refreshing!</p><div></div>

<p>The other day I was using a single Eisntein to produce that puddle-of-light-in-the-woods look while working with two dogs. The light sat 13 feet up on a stand, quite a ways off (I was shooting with a 200mm lens to constrain the background and give the dogs room to move). So it was great to be able to toggle the light on and off, and to adjust modes and power while I was at a distance.<br /><br />The light was in a gridded beauty dish to keep it to 30 degrees. That modifier (with the honeycomb) kills off a fair bit of the output, needless to say. But I was still able to compete nicely against afternoon light, and have a flash duration short enough to freeze action while draggging the shutter a bit.<br /><br />Here's a set shot, with the shutter long enough to let the ambient light really play a role.</p><div></div>

<p>Same set, but stopped down a notch, and with a much shorter shutter speed. You can see how much light we're actually dealing with, here.</p><div></div>

<p>It produced the look I was after, here:</p><div></div>

<p>But in speed mode, the Einstein was producing a fast enough burst to also handle this.</p><div></div>

<p>Ralph: A fully charged Vagabond Mini should be able (if you're not shooting in extremely cold temps) to let an Einstein at <em>full power</em> fire well over 400 times. Probably closer to 500. And again, that's at full power. Obviously we're not talking about using the modeling lights in a situation like that.</p>

<p>No IR trip wire setup to trigger the camera. :)</p>

<p>Nice work as always. </p>

 

<p>Einstein + Vagabond Mini is a nice combo at a reasonable price. If you want a little better build quality, more power output, and a nicer lineup of modifiers you can look into the Elinchrom Ranger. It's going to be heavier but will also give you 1100 watt seconds for those mid-day shots where ambient light is strong. It's also quite weather proof and build quality is excellent. Elinchrom also has some very nice modifiers with a fast/easy speedring system (Rotalux). Deep Octa or Maxilite are very nice, as are some of the more conventional softboxes/octas.The Skyport triggering system works well, and allows for remote adjustment of the power settings.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for expanding on the advice I've already received. This is all such great information. Exactly what I was looking for. The Einstein photos look really well done and the Ranger is def. on the short list as well. My biggest problem with Elinchrom is the price of the modifers... I browsed a few of them at Adorama and WOW.... Not for the weak hearted. Has any used both? Is there a huge difference in the quality of the light or is the build more the driving factor in the price differences? I can pay the price difference for improvements in quality. It's harder to pay it for a name and having to go through a distributor instead of buying direct.</p>

<p>I used some Alien Bees soft boxes a few years ago. The Rotalux boxes I have now are better build, faster to set up, lighter weight, and nicer quality of light. I haven't used the more recent stuff from PCB so I can't comment on on it.</p>

I've got one of Buff's original softboxes, and it's workable, but certainly more of a nuisance than his newer folding units.

They're much better put together, are a breeze to deploy, support the (very reasonably priced) grids, and see like they'll

last through lots of use. Very happy with the new folders - the hardware is much more substantial than you'd expect.

<p>I love Buff's folding softboxes! So incredibly easy to set up. They don't break down as small, since the ribs are permanently mounted--they open kind of like you would pop open an umbrella--but they are so nice. I've had no problems with the one I've had for over two years now. I use Buff's White Lightnings and really like them, but the Einsteins will give you some better capabilities in several respects, as others have mentioned.<br>

Also, no matter what brand of lights you get, if you plan to purchase a different brand of softboxes, make sure they offer speedrings that will fit your lights.</p>

<p>I have two of the new Paul C Buff soft boxes and they take about 1 minute to set up, and the quality seems fine. I have two alien bees B1600's and two Vagabond batteries. I did an outdoor shoot last weekend and took over 200 shots at about half power, as it got darker I had to turn on the modeling light for the last 30 or so frames so that I could focus, the battery had about 1/4 power left when I finished. Spare Batteries are only $90 if you need more. I use pocket wizards to trigger them. I spent around $1500 for the two lights, two batteries, and two soft boxes.</p>

<p>Hello all. You know, sites like these make me wonder how I ever made an informed decision prior to the internet. :) From the comments I've received thus far, I believe I'm going to have to take a serious look at the Buff equipment. I believe he is in Memphis. I'm only four hours away. I had heard that they are very friendly and helpful folks so a daytrip might be in order before I make a lighting system decision between them and the Rangers. I checked out his website after reading everyone's comments and I saw that they even offer package deals that are discounted below their seemingly very fair prices. None of the packages they had listed seemed like exactly what I needed but I'm guessing that they will allow you to pick and choose items as well if you're putting together a full system. I was thinking four lights so I can deal with any unexpected failures and have most of my bases covered, and then the kid in me wants to just run down through their accessory list and pick out everything that catches my eye so I can get a discount quote on the whole enchilada. :D</p>

<p>Matt said:</p>

 

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<p>Ralph: A fully charged Vagabond Mini should be able (if you're not shooting in extremely cold temps) to let an Einstein at <em>full power</em> fire well over 400 times. Probably closer to 500.</p>

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<p>Wow! That's pretty impressive! Thanks, Matt!</p>

<p>Jason, I wouldn't be put off by modifier prices for any system ... almost any modifier can be used on almost any strobe head by swapping speed-rings. While there are exceptions, this is generally true ... so a soft-box can be selected that offers more reasonably priced grids, and used on most any strobe system you select. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, lighting is not exempt from the old adage "you get what you pay for". I have an ancient 79" Elinchrom Parabolic that I use with Profoto heads that is still like the day I took it out of the box ... in contrast to many money saving soft-boxes relegated to the trash after a few years of duty ... or less. Lighting is very similar to camera gear in that incremental gain initially seems dis-proportionately expensive, until you "catch up" with what it can really do. </p>

<p><em>(BTW, while modifiers may look the same on the surface, cheaper ones often do not offer the subtlety of light control that you come to appreciate once you develop a sophisticated eye. Everyone wants to believe the cheaper alternatives can do the same job, but experienced shooters will most likely tell you differently). </em></p>

<p>Things like umbrellas are pretty much universal ... whether large para type umbrellas from Paul C Buff or from Westcott @ $100. each (excellent, BTW). </p>

<p>What do you get when you pay more for a strobe system? Often it is proven long-lasting construction and relentless stability ... as you noted, walk into a rental house and you'll likely walk out with Profoto ... why do you think that is? Drop into almost any professional commercial studio and see what lighting they use ... it does provide a hint at the very least. Talk to lighting grips for the real story about equipment in the real world ... that's what I did after stumbling around wasting money. </p>

<p>When people ask what system to get when on a budget, or they dabble in lighting in an enthusiastic manner, I usually agree with Paul C. Buff proponents in terms of the value/price ratio.</p>

<p>If asked about more professional applications, long term investment, growth potential, and versatility ... coupled with the willingness to spend in proportion to those objectives ... I advise differently, often based on long-term experience where inexpensive became very expensive because I had to start over when I learned more, and demanded more from my lighting tools.</p>

<p>You have an advantage because you are starting from ground zero ... choose carefully and think way ahead to whatever height of potential you want to reach for ... and act accordingly. </p>

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<p>Marc, thank you for the reply and the excellent information it contained. You managed to hit upon several points that I have been stuck on.<br>

I'm an engineer and by my very nature, I try to see the big picture as best as I can and I tend to analyze every decision as thoroughly as I can. I've learned through my work that the upfront investment, when figured over the life of a project, is often not the most costly part of the job and I've tried to apply that lesson to this decision. As I mentioned in my first post, a lot of people recommended PCB, but I could not find a single piece of their equipment to rent and try out and I've never observed them being used on a pro shoot either. I don't want to sound negative about them as it is obvious from the examples here that they are very capable of producing nice work, but I have to be honest and say that it still bothers me a bit. As they say, "there is a reason for everything."<br>

That being said, I am still amazed at their value/price ratio. I'm going to look into what they offer more thoroughly, but I've not made my mind up yet.<br>

I would be curious to know, if you were in my position and wanting to put together a competent set-up from scratch, what would you be looking at?<br>

Best regards,<br>

Jason</p>

<p>Sage advice from Marc. There are <em>very</em> different levels of short and long term engagement with this sort of thing. <br /><br />I will say this, Jason: one of the pleasures of dealing with PCB is their absolutely zero-BS 30 day money back guarantee. Obviously they don't want to be in the free rental business, but they know that most people who buy their stuff won't give it up. That's the best way I know to give it a try. They're very gracious people to deal with, and really want to make you happy. <br /><br />My first Einstein was one of the original v1 units. I used it for <em>months</em> after they wrote and told be that they'd be happy to swap it out for the newer, more refined v2. Months more went by, and they gently reminded me that the swap-out window was eventually going to close. It wasn't just procrastination - I was using the thing! But I packed it up in the original box and used the pre-paid UPS return ticket they sent me, and shipped it off during a week I was otherwise occupied. I had a brand new v2 to replace it back on my doorstep in four days, with the factory warranty reset to day zero. <br /><br />Buff runs a very tight ship. He's not trying to be Profoto, but he knows that a lot of working-full-time people find his <em>orders of magnitude less expensive</em> gear to fit very nicely into certain budgets. He stuck with that target market when he made the Einsteins, but happens to have made something that's extremely compelling at <em>any</em> price. I wouldn't try to talk you out of Profoto, but I would recommend taking Buff up on his 30 day offer and the discount he gives on modifiers if you buy them at the same time you by a light. He'll take it all back with a smile if you regret the decision.<br /><br />No, I have no vested interest in the company other than wanting them to thrive as the US-based manufacturer they are. The company's a little wacky in some ways (Paul is definitely a throwback!) but the value proposition is unbeatable, especially if your budget is being tugged in multiple directions.</p>

<p>Jason, regarding Buff packages, you can build your own. Go to their "help center" tab, then "packages", and it explains the discounts you get on accessories you purchase at the same time you purchase your lights. One light nets a 5% accessory discount, two is 10%, all the way up to 4 lights and a 20% discount on accessories. The only thing I've heard to avoid is their stands. I prefer Avengers myself. Really sturdy.</p>

<p>Jason, I wouldn't think of recommending any one lighting system without really understanding what your short and long range objectives are, what sort of subjects you want to deal with, how big the sets or locations may be, whether you will be also shooting table top product now or later, and what you want to explore creatively. It well could be PCB. Or something more expansive eventually. </p>

<p>I am not even recommending Profoto. I am in the process of assisting a fellow equip a studio he is building from scratch, and we laid out all the options with Pros and Cons that would maximize his choices moving forward. Given those options, he decided to go Profoto, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the right chioce for everyone in any way.</p>

<p>One thing I can say is in general, working with a camera's native ISO for optimal quality, stopped down for DOF, and really good light modifiers, I have often been shocked and amazed how much light you need. </p>

<p>You asked what I'd do from scratch ... again for me, my subjects, and clients ... I'd select a portable Hensel Porty 1200L kit with the AC studio converter (dual usage), a two Profoto D1 500s kits with PCB Mini batteries ... and I wouldn't care if it took me a year to assemble it. The Hensel has three radio receivers built-in including the Profoto AIR that triggers the D1's and provides channel control of levels from the AIR transmitter. This kind of gear is not for the faint of heart ... and if it strains the budget even long term, then that's an answer in itself in favor of PCB.</p>

<p>Best of Luck!</p>

<p>-Marc </p>

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