Starting Out In Large Format?

<p>I would like to get into large format (4x5) photography doing mostly landscapes. I'm pretty experienced in 135 and medium format, but large format is really a whole different ball game. I've tried to find some definitive guides on getting into the format, but most resources a little bit dated. For example, after reading Ken Rockwell's guide, I had my heart set on a Tachihara, only to find they were no longer in production.<br>

To start out I just want to get a feel for the camera, so I will shoot on Fuji Instant Film. So the question is what do I look for in a camera? I know the movement is important. Is there a difference between single rail and double rail cameras? Camera bodies also limit my lens selection right?<br>

I'd be interested in some experience from other members in terms of equipment, since this is really an expensive niche, but I would like to keep costs down if possible. What current manufacturers can anyone suggest. What about buying used? What should I look for in a old camera (or what old camera should I look for?<br>

Thanks in advance for all your help. It feels like I'm starting at square one again with photography, but it sure is exciting!</p>

<p>

 

<p>Basically, the camera is just a box. The really important part is the lens. The box can be either a rail camera or a field camera. The field camera doesn't have the same extent of swings and tilts. Usually just the front standard swings and tilts on a field camera. The front standard is responsible for increasing depth of field and the rear standard is responsible correcting distortion, but those are basic, over simplified descriptions. "Double rail" cameras extend the capabilities by allowing for longer bellows draw for extreme close ups (I've never heard that term, so I may be off). For most "normal" photography you don't need the extension. The more expensive cameras are better engineered for smoother movements and have scales for matching swing and tilt angles between the front and rear standards, and gear driven focus, as opposed to friction focus, for more precision. The camera body may or may not limit lens selection. Some wide angle lenses (90mm or wider) may require a bag bellows or a recessed lens board, or both. The Calumet CC 401 will require a recessed lens board for Schneider Super Angulon 90mm lens.</p>

<p>To start out you might try looking for a used Calulmet CC 400 or 401. Its a rail camera. They are very good beginner cameras and are even ok after you advance in your skills. I think that for learning about the movements, a rail camera is better because you will be able to experiment with <em>all</em> the movements rather than just the front standard movements. You can probably get one for $100, without a lens.</p>

<p>Peter</p>

 

</p>

<p>If you want to keep costs down, look at a good Crown or Super (a little more expensive) Graphic. The Press cameras will have all the movements you'll need for typical landscape photography. But, the Tachihara's are readily available used and are fine cameras...they will cost a bit more than a Graphic.</p>

<p>Given that your main interest is landscape work, a field (higher price) or press camera (cheaper) is probably the right choice for you. I use a monorail camera most often with a Super Graphic serving as my "field" camera when I don't anticipate using alot of movements (such as when shooting landscapes), but my main emphasis is architectural photography.</p>

<p>Lens choice is mainly limited by the length of your bellows, how tightly it will compress when using wide lenses, and the size of your lensboard. I mount all of my lenses on the small lensboards used by my Super Graphic and use them with an adapter lens board that allows me to use the Graphic boards on my Cambo which uses a much larger board. I haven't found the small Graphic board to be a limitation, but, since I use two different cameras, the few really big lenses I have are mounted on the big Cambo board and the really short lens, a 65mm, is mounted on a Cambo recessed board. For a starting lens, I would recommend a "normal" lens in the 150mm to 160mm range; If you buy a press camera, they often come with a 127mm or 135mm lens, slight wide angles for the 4x5 format, which would be fine for a starter lens, but which often allow little (135mm) or no (127mm) rise/fall or shift movements. Either will usually allow sufficient tilt.</p>

<p>I would not hesitate to by used (I better not...both of mine came used) as long as I was sure the bellows was light-tight and overall condition was good; often sellers (especially firms like KEH, B&H, etc.) will allow you to return the camera if it has problems and some eBay sellers will also. By the way, bellows are very expensive to replace. Some cameras nowdays are also "modular" units that allow easy replacement/change of all parts, such as easily switching from regular to bag bellows; this can be a big advantage and is a feature that I use often on my Cambo monorail. This modularity is also found on some field cameras.</p>

<p>Don't forget that you are also going to need/want several accessories such as a heavy tripod, a focusing cloth (can be as cheap as a black T-shirt or a black square of thick material from the fabric store), a light meter, a focusing loupe, etc.</p>

<p>Good luck, and have fun with it! :-)</p>

<p>I started in lage format photography with a 4x5 Pony Premo that my mother gave me for my 20th or 21st birthday. I used that continuously for 7-8 years. Then I got a package deal on a 4x5 Graflex Super Graphic. I liked that camera because of the rangefinder and I could compose with the wire viewfinder. As a result I could get away without a tripod. The Super has been my main camera for the past 30 years. I have a few 4x5 view cameras (a Calumet, a Bender, and a B&J), and some Graflex SLR's in 4x5 (that also don't require a tripod), but I still use the Super the most because of the well-focused (i.e., sharp) negatives and the ability to get around quickly without a tripod. I mainly do landscapes and the Super has worked out well.</p>

<p>You'll have to define what you want to do with 4x5 as it can range from a Polaroid 110 converted to take 4x5, to a Sinar or Linhof studio camera. If you want to do landscape work my suggestion would be a field camera of some type. In metal cameras the Linhof Technika, Wista 45VX and Horseman FA provide both front adjustments (swing, tilt, shift, rise / fall) and rear adjustment (swing and tilt). The Wista 45VX is a nice camera at a very good price. A Toyo would be another option for a metal field camera.</p>

<p>Ro a metal semi-rail collapsible camera the KB Canham (DLC45) is very nice. If you like wooden cameras they can range from the Ebony (most expensive), Wista (middle), and Shen Hao (least expensive). Many of the wooden field cameras provide a rear shift as well as swing and tilt.</p>

<p>I have a 1971 Cambo 45N monorail, and a Horseman 45FA. I rarely take the monorail into the field anymore as the Horseman 45FA does 99.99999% of what I need to do for field work. In some cases, I've used it to do architectural work as I didn't want to expend the time to transfer the lenses between the 45FA and the Cambo lens boards.</p>

<p>But, for price and performance if you just want to get your feet wet - the advice to get a Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic is right on target.</p>

<p>Midwest is currently offering the Tachihara 4x5 on its website.</p>

<p>You can buy a new Tachihara from Midwest Photo Exchange or Badger Graphic, so I'm not sure about your claim about them not being in production. It's a good wood field camera to start with. Some others (particularly if you don't want to spend a fortune) would be a Wista DX (love this camera), Shen Hao, Zone VI (used only), and Chamonix (my current camera). </p>

<p>Since you are interested in landscape photography, a folding wood field camera will be lightweight, and easy to pack in a Lowepro type backpack along with a couple of lenses.</p>

<p>A monorail like a Sinar F1 will offer a variety of movements, but are usually heavier and more awkward to pack. And if you like wide-angle lenses, you'll often need to use bag bellows, as a camera like the F1 will not support wide angle lenses with the standard bellows. This of course varies from camera to camera, so make sure you check maximum and minimum bellows extension and the movements offered when you are considering purchase of a specific model. </p>

<p>Check out the <a href="http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup4x5.html">4x5 Camera Round-Up</a> for tips on choosing various cameras. Also, a book I like is <em>Using the View Camera</em> by Steve Simmons. The book as a bit older, but since view camera designs haven't changed much at all in a hundred years, all the info in this book is relevant. The three Ansel Adams books a <em>really</em> good as well. </p>

<p>For lenses, you can find some excellent deals on ePrey if you are patient. I would avoid lenses with "No Return" option. A 150 mm lens of recent vintage by either Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock (Caltar) or Fuji will be of great use to you. Also most of the better camera shops sell used Large Format lenses. You can also add a 90 mm or a gentle wide angle like a 125 mm since your interest is in landscapes. Hope this helps. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>http://www.largeformatphotography.info/books/general.html<br>

Or, just google "large format photography books and click on the first link. </p>

<p>Thank you all for taking time to impart your personal experience. I appreciate it very much. I actually didn't buy Adams' Book1 because I didn't think there would be much to learn when I was starting out in 135, I'll be sure to complete the trilogy.</p>

<p>Thank you for mentioning the retailers that still sell Tachihara...I'll definitely will be looking into it. I also like the suggestions of the press cameras. I'll be doing more research on those cameras as well. Thanks again for the replies!</p>

<p>Landscapes can mean alot of things; it really does not *box in* the angular coverage at all.</p>

<p>You may want to vist your local sights before buying a lens and finding out it will not cover enough angle. </p>

<p>If you buy a 150mm lens and camera and then hike up a mountain or shoot a local scene; you might find it is OK or way way to long and really need a 90mm or 75mm; or 120mm. If you game is movements a 75mm or 90mm with more coverage than a 4x5 frame costs more than a simpler lens.</p>

<p>A super wide angle short lens with a giant rear group sometimes too will not fit well or at all in a press camera and some field cameras.</p>

<p>Your question sounds like you have already settled on a camera body without considering the lens focal length yet. It is like you are buying a cart and not yet considering the horse size yet!. I mention all this because you do not want to find out that the cart/horse or body/lens is not the best combo; or just will not work.</p>

<p>Alot of landscape inputs I get in printing from customers involve no movements; even a simple press camera could have been used.The majority of LF shots every made are by press cameras; that is why they are often just 200 bucks with lens ; body and a few holders. A few years back I bought 3 for 500 bucks on ebay. A great modern short wideangle LF lens by itself can be this or twice this price.</p>

<p>I question/wonder out loud if quickload films for LF are even still around; after reading a few recent threads.</p>

<p>Dave, when you come right down to it LF isn't really that difficult to learn. When you settle upon a camera and a lens, take some test shots in well-lit areas (save dusk and nighttime for when you know what you're doing), and you'll figure it out pretty quickly. Rise, fall, and shift will make sense right away. Tilt and swing will beccome clear with study and some diligent practice.</p>

<p>Instant film might work if you have the proper Fuji holder. Keep in mind that there are two sizes, 4x5 and a smaller size. I would encourage you to jump in and load and shoot real film asap. As the song says, "Ain't Nothin' Like The Real Thing, Baby!" You'll get the hang of it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thank you Kelly for the reality check and Dan for the encouragement!<br /> Kelly, I thought about press cameras also, but I want a camera I could grow into instead of one that I'll grow out of. And getting a new Shenhao or Tachihara is just plain beautiful to look at. You are right though, I haven't really thought about lenses, because I don't have a good concept of LF lenses. I know that 90mm on 4x5 is roughly 20mm on 135. I find that 20mm is sometimes too wide on 135, objects feel too far away when shooting with a especially with the distortion. But at the same time, LF doesn't really work as 135 does, right? Is there severe wide angle distortion shooting in LF?</p>

<p>Long story short, what kind of lens would you guys recommend starting out with?</p>

<p>I'm currently contemplating between the Shenhao TZ45-II (not sure about IIA or IIB yet) vs Tachihara 45GF.</p>

<p>Here are the differences that usually come up in forums:<br /> 1. <strong>Aesthetitcs</strong> - Tachihara are often said to be eye catching with redwood and brass fixtures. This has nothing to do with the performance of the camera, but people often complain about the unwanted attention it draws. Shen Hao's are black or chrome. But now there is a chrome Tachihara too, so this is really a moot point.</p>

<p>2. <strong>Weight</strong> - This is apparently a dealbreaker issue for some people. Tachihara is about 2 pounds lighter than the Shen Hao. Some people say this makes a lot of difference in a field camera. Other say with the lens attached, there isn't much difference. Again, this doesn't directly affect usability, but I imagine it could make a difference on long hikes.</p>

<p>3. <strong>Movement</strong> - This is where I start to get lost. From what I read, Shen Hao has more movements, but Tachihara users downplay the importance of these movements as either not often used or can be compensated for using other movements. Of course, to someone like me, it seems like it's better to have more movements and to not use them than to need movements that are not there.</p>

<p>4. <strong>Bellows</strong> - Again this is something I am not well experienced in. This apparently affects the type of lens that can used. This is also a critical distinction between the Shen Hao TZ45-I and TZ45-II. I could really use some input from Shen Hao users on this issue.</p>

<p>5. <strong>Back</strong> - Shen Hao has a Graflock back while Tachihara has a spring back. Graflock evidently means it can take roll film. How often do people use roll film on 4x5? Does that mean the whole roll needs to be processed together? Can the Fuji PA-45 film holder for FP-100B<strong>45</strong> (thanks Dan) fit on both cameras? This is important to me because I am living abroad and without a dark room. I would like to get a feel for the camera first or else I'd have to wait until I'm back in the States to process any pictures.</p>

<p>I'd like to learn everyone's experiences in regards to each aspect. Thanks again.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>One more very critical point:</p>

<p>6. <strong>Focusing screen</strong> - Shen Hao uses ground glass while Tachihara uses fresnel. Apparently the fresnel is MUCH brighter than ground glass. Some photographer say they need to add (or is it replace the ground glass with) fresnel to make the screen brighter. Does that look anything like this: (http://cgi.ebay.com/Fresnel-Lens-for-Shen-hao-4-x-5-Camera_W0QQitemZ120536946347QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_FILM_CAMERAS?hash=item1c108fd6ab)</p>

<p>

<blockquote>

<p>I know that 90mm on 4x5 is roughly 20mm on 135.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>90 mm on 4x5 is about 25-26 mm on 135. The angle of view is slightly less than a 24mm lens and slightly wider the 28mm. It's a very useful and popular focal length.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I find that 20mm is sometimes too wide on 135, objects feel too far away when shooting with a especially with the distortion. But at the same time, LF doesn't really work as 135 does, right? Is there severe wide angle distortion shooting in LF?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>A 72-75mm lens on 4x5 acts like about a 21mm lens on 135. At this focal length rectangular objects take on a trapezoidal look.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Long story short, what kind of lens would you guys recommend starting out with?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>120, 135, 180, and 240 mm are a very useful focal lengths for outdoor photography. 210 is very useful for desktop shooting. 90 is too wide to begin with. I wouldn't start wider than 120.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I'm currently contemplating between the Shenhao TZ45-II (not sure about IIA or IIB yet) vs Tachihara 45GF.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'm not familiar with these cameras, so I can't comment on them.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>People often complain about the unwanted attention it draws.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Why complain? It's almost always positive attention (except from the police). People are genuinely curious about your "old-fashioned camera." When the cops stop by, tell them that you have to use an old-fashioned camera because you're making black and white pictures. It makes you seem more like Ken Burns and less like a creepy paparazzo.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Weight - This is apparently a dealbreaker issue for some people.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I would be more concerned about stability. A lot of the weight in your system comes from your film holders.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>3. <strong>Movement</strong> - This is where I start to get lost. From what I read, Shen Hao has more movements, but Tachihara users downplay the importance of these movements as either not often used or can be compensated for using other movements. Of course, to someone like me, it seems like it's better to have more movements and to not use them than to need movements that are not there.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You need good rise and fall if you plan to shoot buildings, but the effective ranges will be limited by your lenses' image circle size. In the real world, tilt and swing varies from a few degrees up to about 20 or 25 depending on how close you are to the subject.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>4. <strong>Bellows</strong> - Again this is something I am not well experienced in. This apparently affects the type of lens that can used. This is also a critical distinction between the Shen Hao TZ45-I and TZ45-II. I could really use some input from Shen Hao users on this issue.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It may affect how wide you can shoot. Make sure that the bellows are detachable in case you have to repair them or switch them out for a bag bellows.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>5. <strong>Back</strong> - Shen Hao has a Graflock back while Tachihara has a spring back. Graflock evidently means it can take roll film. How often do people use roll film on 4x5? Does that mean the whole roll needs to be processed together? Can the Fuji PA-45 film holder for FP-100B<strong>45</strong> (thanks Dan) fit on both cameras? This is important to me because I am living abroad and without a dark room. I would like to get a feel for the camera first or else I'd have to wait until I'm back in the States to process any pictures.</p>

</blockquote>

</p>

<p>I don't use roll film but many people like shooting 6x9 with a view camera. A 4x5 is too small to adapt to a 6x17 back. (6x17 (cm) requires a 5x7 (inch) back or larger.) The Fuji holder will slide in just like any other 4x5 cut film holder.</p>

<p> </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>One more very critical point:<br /> 6. <strong>Focusing screen</strong> - Shen Hao uses ground glass while Tachihara uses fresnel. Apparently the fresnel is MUCH brighter than ground glass. Some photographer say they need to add (or is it replace the ground glass with) fresnel to make the screen brighter.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There are no easy answers here, as there are many options (including third party focusing screens) and everyone has their own preferences.</p>

<p>Note 1: This is why I suggested that you start out working in bright light (e.g. mid-morning or mid-afternoon on a sunny day). The image on the glass is actually quite dim even with the lens wide open. Get a good dark cloth. I like the Velcro and elastic-fitted ones from BTZS (available from Badger Graphic).</p>

<p>Note 2: Make sure to use a focusing loupe; it's impossible to focus accurately without one. (The loupe doesn't have to be expensive - I use a compact Horizon model most of the time, even though I own a nicer 4x Rodenstock.) 6x is a good magnification for 4x5.</p>

<p>Note 3: It's more difficult to see the image projected by a wide-angle lens then by a normal lens. That's why I suggested that you avoid the 90 mm lens in the beginning. Learn on a mid-range focal length (135, 150, 180).</p>

<p>Discuss available focus screen options with a reputable dealer. I don't have a lot of experience in this area, as I use the stock fresnel that came with my Ebony.</p>

<p>RE "I know that 90mm on 4x5 is roughly 20mm on 135."<br /> "90 mm on 4x5 is about 25-26 mm on 135. The angle of view is slightly less than a 24mm lens and slightly wider the 28mm. It's a very useful and popular focal length."</p>

<p>HORIZONTAL *****The *aspect ratios* of 4x5 and 35mm are different; thus folks use different comparsions to often justify the latest toy wanted 4x5 is 1.25; 35mm is 36/24 ie 1.5.<br /> Here in printing landscapes for the public *most are horizontal;* most are way "non square"; ie even a 1.5 ratio is "too square".<br /> It these landscape printing for the public case then with 4x5" and 35mm scans the horizontal dimensions are thus full; and the tops often cropped. Thus with a 4x5" frame about a 4.7" dimension is used; and maybe say 1.38" with 35mm. thus 4.7/1.38=3.41 ratio.</p>

<p>With a 3.4 ratio a 120mm on a 4x5 is thus like a 35mm lens on 35mm<br /> With a 3.4 ratio a 90mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 26mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 150mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 44 mm lens on 35mm <br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 180mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 53mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 210mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 62mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 240mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 71mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 270mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 79mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 300mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 88mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 127mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 37mm lens on 35mm<br /> with a 3.4 ratio a 75mm lens on 4x5 is thus like a 62mm lens on 22mm</p>

<p>**Here with my Nikon F slr there are houses and simple things like landscapes that a 50mm lens is to long; thus I use my 35mm F2 lens; . If the horizontal dimension is the controlling parameter like in a landascape shot; then my 12cm F6.8 Angulon on my 4x5" covers the same horizontal angle as my 35mm lens on a 35mm still camera. Thus if I have both formats/systems in the car and a landscape scene just fits with the 35mm lens on the Nikon; it will just fit with my 12cm lens on a 4x5 camera.</p>

<p>***In the USA in schools to learn Photography a 210mm is often the standard lens for 4x5 on a starter view camera. It is long enough where even a simple/dumb Tessar allows movements on a 4x5; it is too low in cost; one is not buying a wazoo wideangle lens. You get it since one is a poor student; you learn movements. Then like my friend from Brooks that went to Mugu Rock to shoot a wide scenic; I hand my speed Graphic with 90mm and 12cm Angulons; he had is 210mm and could only cover 1/2 the area; 1/4 if you think square degrees.</p>

<p>Here If I vist my summer house and go the end of the 300 foot lot that drops down about 15 feet; a 127mm Ektar doesnt have enough coverage if I shift up the lens to make the house straight. The big trees are vigenetted. Thus I have to use my 12cm Angulon; to shoot a 1 story house with big trees 150 feet away; house say 250 feet way. A 150mm might work too; if I had one with movements and had the camera in vertical mode.</p>

<p>VERTICAL ***if you gig is ratioing the short dimensions of 4x5 to 35mm; one has roughly about a 4x ratio is what I etch in my brain to do quick comparisons. In this case a 50mm on a Nikon is sort of like a 200mm on a 4x5</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If you're going to get quickload, you'd better hurry. <br>

http://www.adorama.com/alc/news/Fujifilm-to-discontinue-Quickload-films</p>

<p>Given the difference in aspect ratios that Kelly mentioned, I always compare angle of view with respect to the LONG side of the frame ONLY.</p>

<p>A 135 frame is 36mm wide. A 4x5 frame is approximately 125mm wide (it varies depending on the holder that you use).</p>

<p>90/125 = x/36, where x is the focal length in 135 format. Solving for x:</p>

<p><strong>x = (90)(36)/125 = 25.9</strong></p>

<p>Using these assumptions, a 90mm lens on a 4x5 camera is roughly the same as a 26mm lens on 35mm or about 18mm on a camera with a 1.5x crop sensor. In practice it works out to be slightly wider (approx. 25mm) because the holder overlays a couple of millimeters on the edges of the film. This renders the usable part of a 4x5 frame slightly smaller than 125mm in width.</p>

<p>Some purists might want to measure focal length equivalents with respect to the frame's diagonal. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but (a) it's not intiutive to me and (b) it varies slightly as the aspect ratio varies. When I judge whether a lens is wide enough to capture a particular scene I'm looking mostly at that lens' coverage on the long dimension.</p>

 

<p>Buy used, start small, get a 135 or 150mm lens and try it. I think a much greater percentage of new people abandon the format and loose money so keep it on the cheap till you make your mind up then buy the camera you really desire if you stick with it. </p>

<p>While heavier than a Graphic. How about a Cambo SCii? Bought a looks like new one from KEH for $210.00. It's a rail camera. Can take a bag bellows.reflex viewing hood, etc. And didn't cost a great deal as some brands do.</p>

<p>Wayne's post above is excatly what I wold suggest. Start small and go from there. Buy one decent lens and stick with that for a while. 90mm if you want landscape or architecture or 150mm for a roughly standard length.</p>

<p>Yeah I agree with Wayne's thinking too. In all my shooting with in 35mm, I tend to stick with my 50mm f-1.4. Sometimes it's good to be locked in focal length-wise. What are some other cheap "starter" cameras with adequate movements that you guys would recommend?</p>

<p>"The front standard is responsible for increasing depth of field and the rear standard is responsible correcting distortion, but those are basic, over simplified descriptions. "<br>

They are also wrong!<br>

Tilts and swings, either on the front or rear do not increase or decrease the depth of field. That is solely controlled by the aperture. the circle of confusion used, the focus point and the magnification of the image and the print.<br>

Tilts and swings control the plane of sharp focus. If you do them on the rear standard you will change the shape of the subject. If you do them on the front standard you will not change the subject shape.</p>

<p>As well as the recommendations for starter cameras in posts above have a look at Q. Tuan-Luong's large Format Photography homepage.</p>

<p>http://www.largeformatphotography.info/</p>

<p>as well as general advice on camera and lens and useful introductory 'how to do it' sections there are also (if you scroll down) reviews of a range of 4x5 cameras. To an extent what you buy will depend on what is available so i suggest you familarise your self with possible cameras and keep a look out for examples in auction sites etc. There are broadly three classes of LF camera - wooden field such as the tachihara, metal field such as the Linhof and thirdly the monorail. All three work well and hae their pros and cons.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If one has never ridden a bike; one might have a harder time of chosing one to buy. <br /> One of my good friends was *all excited* about buying a Hassleblad system back in the 1980's; his 35mm film camera was a Nikon F3.</p>

<p>The last time he used 120 roll film was in the 1950's with box camera. He got all excited comparing MF systems in books and magazines. He compared all sorts of MF cameras on paper; with never ever seeling one; or holding one; or handing one. He settled in a Blad and an exhaustive search; it was his *perfect* MF camera to start with.</p>

<p>Then when at an actual camera store to hold one; he "discovered" that it was slower to used than his Nikon F3; discovered it did not have a TTL meter; discovered on had to loaded this film magazines; discovered you cannot shoot as quick; discovered that there was "all this stuff" to do; discovered that most places do not have 1 hour 120 film development.</p>

<p>He had sold himself on this ultimate great MF camera thru others recomendations and his GIANT search and exhaustive *LONG* studies; but reality set in when he held one and the honeymoon/dream phase waned. He ended up not getting one. The whole dream was about the camera; great Planar lens. What he really had in his head was more like a giant MF camera that one could load a 36 exp roll of giant film available anywhere' developed anywhere; a camera with autoexposure and TTL metering; that was only the size of his Nikon F3.</p>

<p>On another active thread somebody is discussuing an old fould Calumet 4x5 rail camera with Symmar being only worth 150 bucks.<br>

Here I sort of feel to start somebody might want to start with a lower cost bike or camera too see if it makes sense; instead of an expensive rig.</p>