Sports Photographer Education....

<p>Events of the past 2 weekends have led me to this post...</p>

<p>I shoot youth sports as a 2nd job (currently - working on making a first job) -</p>

<p>The last 2 weekends - I was the official photographer for events in youth sports - specifically swimming - meaning I paid the host club for a spot - much the same as the t shirt and swim gear vendors do. </p>

<p>Weekend 1 - another photographer shows up on deck - with a press pass - and says that he is doing shots for a local paper - no problem - but then I notice that he's hanging around way too long for a local news guy (they run maybe 1 or 2 photos max from an event - I've shot for one of their sister publications before). So when I get home - I check out his site - and boom - there's photos from the event for sale on his SmugMug site.</p>

<p>A few quick e-mails to the meet host and the photos are no longer for sale...However the paper had no problems with him</p>

<p>Weekend 2 - I'm photographing a state championship meet - a parent comes up to my booth and says - did you know you have competition? I'm like yeah - I've seen a lot of parents with 70-200 f2.8's... He then shows me photos on his iphone of a guy and lady taking photos and downloading them onto a computer in the stands... and selling them to parents... Needless to say - I get the person in charge and he shuts this guy down, but only after he took God knows how much business away from me. When the meet director shut him down - he came up with a story about doing a photo project for a college class...but then he turns around and asks the director about shooting there next year! I haven't found the images online - yet...but my guess is that they are out there. That was photographer #1 / #2.... Photographer #3 had deck credentials and came on deck and started shooting pictures of swimmers from his team...</p>

<p>What in the h-e- double hockey stick is going on? </p>

<p>Elliot's response about education got me thinking about this...I firmly believe that before we can educate others - we need to educate ourselves. </p>

<p>Like most - I rarely go to a sporting event (kids or other) without a camera. But when I'm not the official photographer of the event - meaning I don't have an agreement with the host for booth space - I don't use a pass to get on the sidelines - and I don't sell the photos. If there is an official photographer - I limit my shooting to MY KID ONLY and use the photos for the family... I may go talk to them and see what they are shooting and how business is, but I don't interfere and I don't go on the sidelines.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p> </p>

<p>As a former competitive swimmer and a son of a former meet director – the photographer is probably around priority number 1000 on their to-do list, so keep that in mind. Plus, I love reading listings like this on PNet i.e. “How do I shut down someone else’s business via strong arm methods” - rather than simply producing images the other guy just can’t do and providing a better service (a free market vs. union mentality).<br>

If you truly want to keep out the competition, you might need to have the meet director put a statement in the heat sheet (program) about an “official photographer” being used. Also, this would be a good location for an advertisement with a statement about being the “official photographer”. <br>

Remember - for the most part – swim meets are organized chaos, unless you make it very clear that you have a contract with the meet director (host) – expect competition. And in the spirit of a true state champion – you don’t keep your competition out of the pool, you dive in and kick their butt in the pool.</p>

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<p>Bryan -</p>

<p>I get it - that dealing with vendors is not high on meet director's priority lists... I've been doing swimming photography for the last 4 years - so I get it. I know the officials and referees by name and they know me and my crew. Same with the meet directors. I know them and their kids. And I do kick butt on the competition in the pool... I have access to shots that can't be gotten from the stands...and know the kids / strokes so it's not luck when we get the "Wow!" shot...</p>

<p>Is it strong arm if I have a contract / agreement with the team to be the official photographer and then ask that other photographers honor that agreement? If I owned a T-shirt shop and came into a venue and just sat up a table and started selling t-shirts is there anyone that would think that was acceptable behavior? I seriously doubt it. </p>

<p>Let me be perfectly clear - I welcome competition - and want the market to decide. If someone else comes along that offers more, better, cheaper then I do - let's have at it. But let's do it fair - and open... not by shooting in stands at an event I'm at as the official photog, and passing out cards to parents... that is unethical at best and perhaps illegal at worst.</p>

<p>When I got started in this - I called the state organization and found out the rules, I called the meet directors and got in with them. I still call them to set things up and don't ever assume that I'm guaranteed anything. </p>

<p>So what is it about photographers and photography that makes it unique that we somehow think that we have the right to go to an event - where there is obviously an official photographer (and we did have that in the programs) and just start shooting and selling?</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>People just don't care.... I think it is a lack of respect form one Photographer to another. Plain and simple.</p>

<p>And it unfortunately gets worse as the number people purchase semi high end cameras and start calling them selves photographers.</p>

<p>Personally if I showed up at an event and found out there was another Photographer that was the Official Photographer for that event I would not shoot for sale. I may get some shoots to add to my portfolio but I would not turn around and sell them. I would not want another photographer to do that to me so I would not do that to them.</p>

<p>i am a small paper photographer, with a huge interest in sports photography. i had a "first" the other day:<br>

i was at the big east basketball tourney (college), and i had a courtside seat. it was a perfect seat near the top of the key. as an enthusiast and a fan of the team playing, i brought my 70-200 f2.8 which i was allowed to bring into the arena. as i lifted the camera to my eye, a security guard came over and checked my ticket. once he saw that i was in the right seat, he told me that i could not photograph the game....because.....i had a "professional lens". he said that if i wanted to use a smaller lens or a point/shoot camera, that would be fine, but not the "professional lens". i was so bummed.<br>

so, who is he to determine what is "professional"? was it the white, long lens? if i had my 85mm f1.8 which looks small, but big performance, would that have been ok? i dont get it.<br>

i ended up shooting from afar with no hassles and they came out great...for my own personal use.<br>

anybody have a similar situation?</p>

<p>Chris -</p>

<p>Surprised that they even let you in with that! The ticket taker must have been a newbie!</p>

<p>I don't understand why, but for some reason basketball (in general) is worse than any other sport when it comes to "big" lenses. I've been refused entry to a MN Timberwolves game with a 70-200 on... but I've gotten into Vikings, Twins, and Wild games (FB, Baseball, and Hockey) with it. </p>

<p>I've also seen some youth events where the ticket takers where turning away people with "Pro" looking lenses.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>David,<br>

In dealing with the other photographers - I think you answered your question already - just like the kids do in the pool - beat them with better products and better sales technique. As for the rest, I learned early on, you can't control others behavior. Now if they had set up a table next to yours - then that's an easy call. I don't see too many luxury car dealers worried about the used car dealer moving in next door to them. In some respects, it makes your work look even better.<br>

I'm just glad to see people taking photos at meets - 16 years of competative swimming from 8&under to DivI - I think I only have a handful of photos of me swimming.</p>

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<p>Dave,</p>

<p>I have been in the stands with my camera at youth sporting events. I have never been asked to leave or remove my lens. I also do not print shots or set up web sites to sell shots after the event. This would only sabotage the local pros and I respect what they do, so I just don't do it.</p>

<p>What you are experiencing is a lack of respect from people out to make a buck... unfortunately at your expense. The best you can do is gently explain the situation to them. You, after all, paid the sports league you shoot for, to have the access you currently have. </p>

<p>If a parent or some competitive shooter decides to encroach on the business agreement you have with the league, I would first explain to the shooter that you PAID to have the rights you have. If they put up a stink about it, there's not much you can do for that event except to have someone in higher position of authority ask them to put their cameras away and take their seats or leave the premises. I would then meet with the governing body of the league, explain the situation, and ask for assistance with weeding out these individuals at the gate.</p>

<p>I used to be contracted with a local sports team. When the league contracted pros would ask me to leave, I would explain my situation as a TEAM shooter. I would tell them that I was contracted with one of the teams on the field and that I would only shoot the matches that my team was involved in. <em>I should also mention that in the league bylaws, every team was allowed to contract with their own photographer, but if they conflicted with the league's hired pro, they would be barred from shooting any match that the league pro was shooting.</em> USUALLY, the pro would have no issue given the circumstances as long as I wasn't on the same side of the field, (so not to get into each other's way). On only one circumstance did I run into an issue with the pro. Rather than put up a stink, I just walked off the field for that match. For the rest of the day, the pro was not on the field with my team, so there was no conflict from that point on.</p>

<p>The moral of the story is that if you politely explain your situation as the paid pro, you may get farther than having security ask them to leave. I do also agree with everyone above that says to blow them away with your work and get the shots they aren't proficient enough to get.</p>

<p>Best of luck,<br>

RS</p>

<blockquote>

<p> But let's do it fair - and open</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Cigarettes in NYC are priced over $9 per pack.<br>

I see these kids selling bootleg smokes for $5.</p>

<p>Phillip Morris doesn't seem to care.</p>

<p>Since when does "fair" apply to anything in the business world we live in?</p>

<p>I am a newbie. I enjoy shooting teen baseball and basketball. So far I find that it is easy access and a great way to learn about sports photography. Would I be infringing on the "team photographer" If I download/share pictures on Photo or Flickr? I am not a parent of any of the young people I shoot.</p>

<p>Kathi</p>

<blockquote>

<p>perhaps illegal at worst.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />Can you cite a law that shooting in the stands violates?</p>

<p>@kathi -<br>

I have an obvious bias answer to that question. If you are shooting photos of your own child or a relative and give the photos to the relative - then the ethical answer is "No" you're not infringing on the team photographer. If you're shooting all athletes and then passing out cards or sticky notes or whatever to parents in the stands with your website on it then yes - in my opinion - you would be infringing. If on the other hand you are there shooting, not passing out contact information (ie not marketing yourself) just doing it to get the experience / improve your portfolio / technique - then go for it.</p>

<p>@ Jeff -<br>

Obviously the law differs by state, but in most states if there is a "Private" event where one party rents the venue and is paying vendors (or getting paid by vendors) there is a right that exists for the event sponsor to say who can and can't take photos. All of the events (sports) I shoot are "Private" in that teams are invited or not to them, and the host team either owns the venue or is renting it for the event. Much in the same way that a bride and groom are renting what would in most circumstances be considered a public place.</p>

<p>Interestingly enough - I've been thinking about this... If this post were on the wedding forum how many people would be questioning the exclusivity clause? My guess is that the response would be 99 to 1 in favor of it.</p>

<p>Dave</p>