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Sports (basketball) Shooting Issues


day 6

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I just bought both the 40D and 5D and based on reading, felt the 5D was supposed

to be the better sports body to use with my lenses. I just purchased the

20-70mm F2.8 L lens and love it's appearance. However, when shooting at a

basketball game yesterday on either body, I could never get the crystal clear

images I had hoped for when considering this lens.

 

I used ISO1250, no-flash (can't use flash anyways in the gym), f2.8, 1/250th and

still get a ton of blur on my shots. I didn't use a tripod or monopod because of

the position just under the basket wouldn't allow the room. The images aren't

clear, and it's not due to camera movement because the players appear to have

motion blurs from the direction they are running.

 

Also, the bokeh is pretty poor. I'm very frustrated and need some advise of how

to improve my technique or which body would really be better to use. I also

tried single shot... servo shot on both cameras and found the results very poor.

I used manual, aperture priority, and the automated fast action setting.

Nothing gave me the still freeze-frame look that I want in my photos.

 

Please advise.

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that's because 1/250th is not nearly fast enough to "freeze" sports...

On top of that not sure what made you think the 5d would be the better sports camera - the 40 is far superior for sports due to faster af, 1.6 crop factor, and 6.5 frames per second...

In any event - I would try 500th of a second and see what that yields and go from there

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I've read a few posts where people move their ISO to 3200 or even 6400. Is that possible with either the 40D or 5D and would I want to consider doing that because of the potential noise issues? One lady mentioned she bought the 40D and set it to ISO 3200... how is that possible?

 

Also, I realized after posting this that it could just as easily been posted in the sports forum, but the advice will work with any low-light motion setting... so I posted here.

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Okay. Are you shooting basketball professionally? It doesn't sound like it. You SURELY don't NEED a 1DII or 1DIII. If you are going to drop another $2K-4K, get faster lenses. You have two bodies. Check out the 50f/1.4 or the 85f/1.8. And for wider, 24L or 35L. You could get 1 wide and both the 50 and 85 for the price of a 1DII.

 

Joesph is right... you need a faster shutter speed. This means higher ISO or faster lens. As for setting the camera to higher ISO, both 5D and 40D are capable of 3200ISO. You need to activate the enhanced ISO. I don't have either bodies anymore so check out your manual.

 

If you don't like the bokeh... that is a lens characteristic. You would need to try a different lens. But the 24/28-70L is about as good as they come.

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Assuming your lens works properly outside the gym (meany you get crystal clear images normally), I would suggest you need to increase your ISO to 1600 (easily handled by the 5D) and stop your lens down a little. You probably want to be shooting at 1/320, F3.5 at a minimum. With advanced noise reduction software like Noise Ninja or Dfine 2.0, you can shoot at ISO 3200 with the 5D (if you have to) and get really nice results if the lighting in the gym is not typical of a school gym.

 

Can you post some samples of your shots?

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My 2 cents, when it come to low budget high school gym and fast high school sport, f2.8 won't catch up to those fast kids. Zoom lens are for when the game is over :-) Switch to prime with f2 and better. Go ahead and go past ISO 1250 and get to know noise nija.
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To set the ISO to 3200 on a 5D you need to enable the ISO expansion custom function. I

can't recall which one that is. Then when you dial above 1600 (or below 100), you'll see "H"

or "L", respectively.

 

I wouldn't want to shoot at 3200 much, though, unless it's the only way. It's better than

nothing, but colors and noise definitely aren't all they can be at lower ISO settings.

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I have to disagree about 40D not being good enough for sports - frame rate is excellent and AF is really good.

 

A tip I got for hockey was to use AV, set speed to 1/500 and ISO to 1600. With my 70-200 2.8, the shots come out clear and noiseware pro or Lightroom clean them up really nicely. The 85/1.8 seems to not be a good lens for hockey, just because it is too long much of the time - 50/1.8 is better and can often keep the ISO down to 800 or 1200.

 

HTH

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Pat, I've had a problem with the 24-70 shooting High school basketball. Our gym lighting is the old type of fluorescent lights that just mess up the focus sensors on my 5D and my 30D with the 24-70f2.8 attached. The 70-200 f2.8L IS works fine on both Bodies. I think it's because the 70-200 focuses much faster. I find that if I use a prime at much less than f2.8 I get into a depth of field problem. This is where only part of the action is in focus. Because some of the pictures (even at 1600 ISO) are dark there is noise. Therefor I use the 5D all of the time because it has much less noise. I shoot at f2.8 @ 1/500th and zoom to what ever I need. I hope this helps, Bill
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>>> I just purchased the 20-70mm F2.8 L lens <<<

 

 

I guess a typo = 24 to 70F2.8L.

 

>>> I used ISO1250, no-flash f2.8, 1/250th and still get a ton of blur on my shots. (edit) it's not due to camera movement because the players appear to have motion blurs from the direction they are running. <<<

 

This answers part of the question: 1/250 is too slow for BBall, 1/500 is minimum, thus you need to shoot at ISO 2500 (or higher) or at F2 (or faster) for the same lighting conditions, assuming your exposures are correct.

 

 

>>> I used manual, aperture priority, and the automated fast action setting. <<<

 

Manual or Tv (shutter priority) is the answer: the SHUTTER speed is the key to freezing the action, it must be the exposure parameter to be controlled in the first instance. I use Manual Mode only.

 

Either camera should give good results, IMO, if one can anticipate the shot.

 

Yes, the 1D series is popular amongst sports shooters, and for good reasons but great BBall shots have been attained with film cameras, with motor drives moving at 1 frame per second, perhaps less: in fact many good sports shooters have a `one shot` credo even working with a camera capable of machine gun work.

 

>>> I didn't use a tripod or monopod because of the position just under the basket wouldn't allow the room. <<<

 

With the two bodies you have and if you used primes (as faster lenses) a 35F1.4L on the 5D and a 50mmF1.4 or 85mmF1.8 on the 40D would cover most of the court.

 

But, using what you have the 24 to 70 should be OK on either body: my choice would be the 40D, but essentially the problem you have is too slow a shutter speed: so the bottom line is given you are limited to F2.8 you must up the ISO under the lighting conditions you describe.

 

Also perhaps your sports shooting technique is a bit rusty: if this is so, then start with the basics, get the shutter speed right and anticipate the action and use your eye and your brain and take one shot only at the peak of the action.

 

If you are indeed learning, I suggest you frame the subject centre and use only the centre AF point, and get these basics nailed before moving further.

 

Search the archives and the Sports Forum and the articles on BBall: there is much information, most will suggest 1/500 minimum and prime lenses I believe.

 

On a side issue, I am intrigued about this phrase:

 

>>> and based on reading, felt the 5D was supposed to be the better sports body to use with my lenses. <<<

 

reading what, I ask?

 

WW

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Okay... I appreciate the responses, as they are in most part in agreement with one another. A couple things:

 

I presume a PRIME lens is another way of describing a non-zoom lens?

 

I have a 50mm 1.8, but I'm opposed to using this very much since I always in a stationary location during shooting and would miss out on at least half the action because the players only come to one end of the court each half. I'd have to wait to get those nice close up shots until they get to my end of the court. I like the zoom lens for this reason from a framing standpoint. I get to focus the bokeh around one player versus the wide angle I get with the 50mm. Am I making sense?

 

As far as bumping the ISO, I have the ENHANCED ISO feature "ON" in my 40D but it still stops at 1600. Any ideas?

 

I read a ton of articles of 5D users in these posts and many commercial review sites and gathered the sense that many people felt the 5D was a better sports camera. That being said, I can't cite a specific page or link... just know that's where I was left. I actually bought the 40D first and wanted a second camera and figured full-frame was my first priority and felt the sports review of the 5D was bonus for me.

 

As for the exposure levels... I can't get good exposure at 1/500th or higher even at 1600 in most low-light settings and flashes aren't allowed. I've tried it for shooting indoors for an engagement portrait with a couple and the noise was horrendous. I tried to correct the noise in Lightroom and have yet to figure out how to tell if the noise is being corrected when I use the slider bar(s). I don't see any difference in noise no matter what I slide when using the DEVELOP tab for adjusting pictures.

 

I'm going to pull off the shots from my cards I took yesterday and I'll be shooting for about three hours again today inside a different gym (different lights, etc.). I'm hoping to get comfortable so I can begin offering my shots to the parents at these events.

 

Question: Do you know anyone on these forums who has a business shooting youth sports at events and then hands out business cards / fliers to get parents to order shots of their kids via their website? A lady was doing this at a football game we went to in Charlotte while visiting some family friends and she was making a lot of bucks doing so. I didn't keep her info, so any leads on this sort of thing would be great.

 

Thanks.

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Re Lightroom - underneath the picture display area, there is a row of 5 icons. The second one in from the left has 2 boxes with / lines in them. Beside that, there is a drop-down menu so you can choose the before-&-after options you want. That is how you can tell what the shots look like as they change. There is one setting there where you have one big picture and one half is un-touched and the other is noise-reduced - very nice way to work.

 

I just downloaded Lightroom yesterday and haven't made any customizations, so I presume that of which I write is default settings.

 

HTH

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Yes, prime is a fixed focal length.

 

High ISO: Are you shooting in the basic zone modes? Sports, portraits, etc.? You are limited to ISO 1600 if you are in basic mode. You must switch over to the crative modes; TV, M, etc. Then change your ISO until you see the "H" That should give you ISO 3200.

Yes, 1/250 is too slow but depending on the gym... I try to shoot at least 1/320 for wide shots underneath the basket. You get some blur but it can add to the "action". Ditto on trying to catch the action at its peak.

 

Last question re selling prints. Proceed with Caution.

1. Establish a relation with some of the parents before the game or tournament. Find out who their son or daughter is. Let them advertise for you. In lower levels of play, you know the coach has a child on one of the teams. Offer him a free photo or two.

2. I've never had a problem at high school or above but younger kids can be an issue unless you are invited by the officiating body. (club, school, church,etc.) A lot of people are concerned about their kid's pictures being on the internet. I always respect a parent's wish to remove or not shoot photos of certain players. It can also be very touchy for divorce/custody cases.

3. Some clubs/organizations may have a "Designated Photographer". Whether legal or not, you could get some people very angry at you. (Not to cause a flame war but I've heard both sides of this issue from several different attorneys.)Find out in advance.

4. If it's a school, offer free images to their school newspaper or yearbook.

5. Get your images to a point where other people will want to buy them. A lot of people have digital SLRs and get photos that they are satisfied with. If I pay you, your photos should be a lot better than mine.

 

Have fun and keep shooting!

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<i>"I have a 50mm 1.8, but I'm opposed to using this very much since I always in a stationary location during shooting and would miss out on at least half the action because the players only come to one end of the court each half. I'd have to wait to get those nice close up shots until they get to my end of the court."</i> <p>

 

Life isn't fair, but your choices are crappy photos of the whole game, or excellent photos of one aspect of the game at a time. <p>

No lens will cover the whole court and give good results. Forget tripods, monopods, or shooting from the stands. Get a fast lens and concentrate on getting excellent shots from one spot for a few games, then try other locations. <p>

 

One excellent position is along the baseline to the side of the basket your team is shooting at (Faces! Eyes!). You might have to change sides when the "low" referee parks in front of you. You can often anticipate this as the ball starts down court, and quickly cross behind the basket. Don't change sides once the play is at your end.

<p>

With your 50/1.8 wide open at 1/500 you can get pro-quality shots of action in the paint, especially if you fire the shutter at the top of the players' jumps for shots, blocks, and rebounds. (They are relatively stationary in the air then). If there's a tussle or scrum for a loose ball, keep shooting, especially when the players hit the floor. <p>

 

Short bursts (3 shots or so) from your 40D with its 6.5fps frame rate will improve your odds of not having an opponent's hand or arm in front of the shooter's face, etc., and getting the ball in the shot. The 3fps rate of the 5D is too slow to be of use.<p>

 

An 85/1.8 or 100/2 works well from the baseline location to capture action coming toward you on your side of mid-court, and shots from around the arc. Your 40D should be low noise up to 1600 ISO, and worth a try at 3200 ISO, especially if the photos are for newspaper use.<p>

 

Also try using the center focus point only, and setting Custom Function 4 to put autofocus onto the * button. Activate Servo focus at the highest frame rate, keep your thumb on the * as a player dribbles toward you, and your 40D will focus continuously on the centre focusing point. Takes some practice, but works amazingly well. You paid for all that technology; might as well use it!<p>

 

 

I find my reflexes get slow if I haven't shot for a while, so give yourself time to adjust to the speed of the game. Best wishes !Have fun!

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There's a good reason for waiting for the play to come to your end of the court - the players are facing you, rather than having their backs to you. If you believe you are trying to cover the entire match, then either you should be using video or having a co-shooter or both. Sports photography is about capturing images with impact - faces, ball and action are all important.
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I did almost all the sports for a paper for about seven years. I did them with a lot worse equipment than you have although it was Canon. I shot the local team and sat cross-legged at their end of the court when their were other photographers shooting from the end. I could not cover the other end. ISO 3200 works pretty well in low light gyms. My editor would only print a picture with a local face and the ball in it. Use the 50 1.8 and shoot tight. I could get by with a 350th if I had to and be sharp enough for publication. Get the top of a jump shot or a drive head on if you have to reduce your shutter speed to 350. I got a lot more good pictures than I had printed in the paper. I have found with sports that I had to shoot a lot of pictures to get few really interesting ones. I am fussy and so was the editor. Equipment is not the issue here it's technique. I learned by doing a lot of games and constantly trying to improve. Most of my work was film but I am now shooting swimming which has it's own difficulties with a 70-200 2.8. I found that I could make it in most gyms with a 28-70 2,8L. There were a few that I had to use flash. I recently did a swim meet at a University where the artificial light at night was so bad that I had to use flash to get enough dof to get more than one swimmer. I found that in order to do serious consistent publishable sports I had to be prepared to use whatever I had in the bad that would work.
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I shoot basketball with a 40D and use the 50mm 1.4 prime lens. I recently bought the 85mm 1.8 and plan on using that at the next game to see how it works. I typically shoot in AV mode and use 1.4 - 2.0 depending on how good the lights are in the gym. I also shoot from one side of the court as well. What I do is when our players are on defense when they're on my side of the court I concentrate on getting good defensive shots. In the 2nd half I concentrate on offensive shots. So far this technique has worked well for me.
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fantastic advice all of you. If I could award brownie points, I'd give you each a 1000. I'm about to download two cards of bball shots I just finished taking. My wife shot with my 40D and I the 5D for one game and we switched cameras the second game and worked with various lenses. I'll report what happened.
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To Zack Jones:

 

>>> I typically shoot in AV mode and use 1.4 - 2.0 depending on how good the lights are in the gym. <<< (ZJ)

 

Why do you do this? i.e. choose Av Mode and thus have a camera selected Shutter Speed (as opposed to Tv or Manual).

 

I understand one can monitor the SS in the viewfinder, and if there is consistent lighting in the gym exposure variation will be limited.

 

But as F1.4 and F2.0 is at the limits of the 50mm lens you are using, choosing Av cannot be to `ensure` the control a `large` DoF;

 

and if you have the on switch to the bent line (to use the wheel to change the SS) you are going Over Ex. or Under Ex. and then (would have to) re-compensate the aperture, and this is tantamount to Manual;

 

so there must be another reason, but I can`t see it, yet.

 

Thanks

 

WW

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IMHO, the last thing you'll want to do is to leave your exposure mode in Program, Aperture Priority, or Shutter Priority when shooting indoor, controlled light action such as indoor basketball. The in-camera light meter that these auto exposure modes relies on will be fooled by the bright light source or the dark, dark shadow area of gym or arena and will cause over and/or under exposures. Since indoor lighting does not change much, if at all, during a game, get the exposure right and stick with Manual Mode. <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00NpKy">Here's</a> an applicable answer to your question regardless of which camera you use.<div>00Nv26-40811584.thumb.jpg.adde6a30670eecfbabf2b0810863d36c.jpg</div>
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