Some tilt/shift lens questions

<p>Recently I have been considering getting a tilt/shift lens. The idea originally came because recently I started taking more and more cityscapes where the keystone effect started bothering me, and sometimes it is not possible to correct it entirely in post, or I end up having to crop parts that I originally wanted in the frame.</p>

<p>I took this attached picture in Singapore last week with the 24-120 f/4 lens set at 24mm. It is stitched together from two pictures, one that has roughly the bottom 2/3 of this final image, and one that has the top 2/3. The latter shows severe keystone effect, so I only used the sky portion of that picture, and even then, correcting it in PS in a way that the clouds line up with each other was not very simple, and I imagine with a slightly more complex content it could have been next to impossible. So basically I have some questions.</p>

<p>1. Even if I can't fit what I want into one frame with a tilt/shift lens either, stitching in post becomes much easier, because everything would pretty much lined up without having to do many corrections. Then suddenly it occurred to me that a tilt/shift lens could similarly be used to stitch landscape panoramas by shifting the lens horizontally, but for some reason I haven't read about using it for that purpose. Is there a reason for this? Does it not work? Or did I just not read enough, and in fact they are widely used to take panorama images?</p>

<p>2. I can't think of a use for the tilt function that would benefit my photography. Are those couple degrees tilt really enough to get everything in focus with moderate apertures on landscapes for instance?</p>

<p>3. I was wondering if you could recommend a T/S lens. The Nikkor 24mm f/3.5 is a little too expensive for me now. I am aware of a Samyang 24 f/3.5 at roughly half the Nikkor's price. How does this compare to the Nikkor? Any other options for a wide angle T/S lens?</p>

<p>4. Is it possible to shift the lens both horizontally and vertically at the same time (or rotate it somehow), or only one axis at a time?</p>

<p>5. Would I have any limitations using a T/S lens on a D700 as opposed to one of the pro bodies that do not have a pop-up flash?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance!</p><div></div>

<p>1) When correcting perspective in Photoshop, stitch first then correct. Keep the center vertical (horizon level) for each shot. When correcting the keystone effect, squeeze the bottom and stretch the top equally (or vice versa). That keeps the same aspect ratio for rectangular objects, and more closely emulates the use of vertical shift.</p>

<p>2) The tilt function is used to keep the foreground and background in focus at the same time. That's a common theme in landscape photography, particularly of things in nature. It's a lot more than two degrees, more like +/- 20. Please review the <em>Scheimpflug Effect </em>for the how, why and when options.</p>

<p>3) You pay your money, you take your choice. Nikon lenses are generally superior optically and (especially) mechanically, but at a cost.</p>

<p>4) You can only shift in one direction, but that direction can be rotated to any angle. Tilt is often at right angles to the shift axis by default, but can be turned 90 degrees fairly easily. Shift and tilt in the same plane is more useful for landscapes and architecture than the default mode.</p>

<p>5) ?</p>

 

<p>I've been shooting large format for ~20 years (4x5) and am familiar with lens movements. I also bought a Nikon D800E mostly so I could use a 24mm PCE. Some thoughts:</p>

<p>1. Yes. Panos are very easy and people use the lens for this all the time.<br /> 2. The tilt is very helpful for landscap, and "sideways" shots where you're trying to get everything in focus where something recedes along a diagonal. Not so useful for architecture. Can be very creative though. The tilt function is more apparent with the 45mm than the 24mm.<br /> 3. The Samyang compares to the Nikon, but not at all well. I bought a used Nikon.<br /> 4. One axis at a time. If you want more, get a 4x5 camera.<br /> 5. No limitations.</p>

<p>The 24mm PCE is my "go to" lens for architecture type shots, and it does eliminate keystone very well.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p><div></div>

<p>I regularly use the old 35/2.8 PC lens as a normal lens on my D3200. It's utterly manual, of course, but it does make a nice picture. The requirement that it be reasonably sharp shifted in full frame means that for a centered shot in DX format you're using only the middle of the middle. The quick histogram replay on a digital camera makes it pretty easy to use, even if a little slow. </p>

<p>Panoramas of about twice the width (or height) of the normal view are easy to do with three shots: full left, center, and full right. When done this way on a tripod the stitch is nearly perfectly rectilinear unlike the usual pan, and it is indifferent to any small error in leveling the tripod head. The old shift lens is a bit less convenient for this, as it shifts in only one direction. To switch from full left to full right it must be rotated 180 degrees, making tripod stability a must. The newer ones shift in both directions without rotation, so the only thing you touch between shots is the shift dial.</p>

<p>One thing I like in the shift lens is the ability to shoot into a reflective surface and not get yourself or the camera in the picture, and likewise to shoot with the sun behind and not get your shadow. </p>

<p>I also have the older "D" version of the 85/2.8 tilt shift macro, an unusual lens that does nearly everything. It's big and hard to use, but grand fun. In the right circumstances it can make a lovely stitch. I rarely use the tilt for normal shooting, but it's nice for macro. Like the current E lenses it's chipped to run the meter on an AF camera, even though the aperture is preset with a pushbutton, and focus is always manual. </p>

<p>If your intention is largely to shift for perspective control and you don't need the tilt, consider the older 35 or 28 manual lenses. They're way cheaper and also relatively compact, and you'd be hard put to find a more beautifully made lens. It's not that hard to get used to a preset diaphragm, and you can still use aperture priority automation. Some are Pre-AI, and require conversion even though there is no aperture ring as such. Conversion is very easy, but something to keep in mind.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thanks for all the responses so far. It is good to know that there are older and cheaper options available from Nikon. I searched a bit and found several 28mm f/3.5 lenses for fairly cheap, and also an even cheaper 28mm f/4 (any experience with this model?). However, it is slightly inconvenient that they only shift in one direction, so I'll have to think about it...</p>

<p>If you want to use the shift function to capture the the constituent images for a panorama, there will be some parallax shift, unless you correct it by moving the camera accordingly. This can be done with e.g. an L bracket with a scale. If you have content at near and far distances then there may be some problems in stitching if you don't keep the lens fixed in position relative to the subject.</p>

<p>I use shift lenses for panoramics but in a different way. I set the camera on a panoramic system at the no parallax point on the scale (I remember these for the lenses I use in this way, though I could mark the positions on the rail) and then compose the first part of the image and use shift to shift the horizon up or down, as required by the composition that I am aiming for. This allows off-centered horizons with no keystoning which means that as I rotate the camera on the panoramic system the trees for example stay aligned so that the stiching is successful. Without a shift lens, to obtain panoramics where there is no keystoning and no mismatches, and an off-centered horizons, I would have to shoot wide enough to include the whole image as captured by the shifted lens, and then crop in post processing to achieve the off-centered horizon in the composition. The shift lens approach is what I prefer, although alternatives would work as well. One drawback of shift lenses is that profile based lens corrections in post-processing do not work if the movements are used. However, this has not really been a problem for me with the PC-(E) Nikkors.</p>

 

<p>Right, that just made me realize I'd still have to center the horizon to make easily stitchable panoramas with no keystone effect if I were to use the horizontal shift, since I can't shift the lens in two axes at a time. Well... I suppose one could rotate the lens and calculate the amount of shift adjustment needed using trigonometric functions, but that seems like a bit of a hassle, and the shift in both horizontal and vertical axes would be more limited.</p>

<p>Oliver, if you have no intention of using the tilt function, then you might want to consider the older 28mm f/3.5 PC-Nikkor, or the 35mm f/2.8 version. These both offer 11mm maximum of shift. The shift can be in any direction. The lens has click-stopped positions at 30 degree intervals, but there's nothing to prevent positioning between the clicks. The click-stops also give indications for the maximum recommended shift along that axis.</p>

<p>I have both a 28mm and 35mm PC-Nikkor, which work perfectly well on a D800. They also work on my D7200, and provide more relative shift on a DX camera, but of course the angle-of-view is much less. There's no issue with either lens being fouled by a pop-up flash overhang. Though I believe an early 35mm PC-Nikkor may collide with the AI coupler tab, so best to look at only the later versions.</p>

<p>Lateral shift for panorama stitching is well described in the instruction booklets for the PC-Nikkors, even though they pre-date digital capture.</p>

<p>Here's a link to the 28mm PC-Nikkor on the MIR website: <a href="http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/PC_Nikkor/index4.htm">http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/PC_Nikkor/index4.htm</a></p>

<blockquote>

<p>"If you want to use the shift function to capture the the constituent images for a panorama, there will be some parallax shift,"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Only relevant if there's some object closer to the camera than the subject, and can be overcome by using a tripod lens collar such that the camera body moves instead of the lens.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"However, it is slightly inconvenient that they only shift in one direction,"</p>

</blockquote>

<p>As explained above, they'll shift in any direction, within the limitation of 11mm of movement. And there's nothing to stop you doing a 4 exposure pano with the lens rotated 45 degrees between shots.</p>

<p>I use the Nikon 24 & 85 mm T&S on a D700 and I would not be without them especially the 24mm which is simply superb. The quality of the images knocks spots off any other lens. My only complaint is that I do not, yet, have the 45mm Nikon T&S but hope to add it to my camera bag soon.</p>

<p>The Samyang does look very nice and at a guess they bought a Nikon 24 and 84 and did a straight copy. However, not sure what is inside the nice shiny exterior in terms of quality of the optics etc. I would go for the Nikon despite the cost.</p>

<p>I am in the market for a bumper sticker saying "you will have to prise my Nikon 24mm PCE from my cold dead hands".</p>

<p>Samyang owners might disagree.</p>

<p>PS. Looked at your images which is stitched, it is excellent work. You will love the Nikon. Please post more images if you get a T&S lens. Remember also that you can use any lens in DX mode on a D700 to narrow down the width of the image</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Right, that just made me realize I'd still have to center the horizon to make easily stitchable panoramas with no keystone effect if I were to use the horizontal shift, since I can't shift the lens in two axes at a time.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You can use shift (side to side movement), rise/fall (up & down movement) and tilt all at the same time on a 4x5 camera, especially a monorail. The Nikon 75mm f4.5 would be the equivalent of a 24mm PCE on that format.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

<p><em>The quality of the images knocks spots off any other lens.</em> +1 <br>

<br>

I use the 45 PC-E extensively, shift far more than tilt and often with neither just because of its image quality, some stitching but not a lot.</p>

<p>Kent, I'm sure a large format camera offers more options in this regard, however, due to the circumstances, I cannot carry a large format camera with me to most places. Very often I do photography on business trips when I have the time. I often get weird faces from my coworkers when they see that I carry a separate camera bag with a DSLR and several lenses (and then they don't know I also have a tripod in my suitcase).</p>

<p>The Samyang 24mm T/S lens is probably OK <em>if you get a good one</em>. I had the opportunity to try one out at a photo-trade exhibition, and it seemed very good. However I've seen online reviews that tell a very different story, showing absolutely awful definition.</p>

<p>So if you're going to buy a Samyang, buy it from a dealer with a no-questions returns policy. I had to return my Samyang 24mm f/1.4 lens due to bad decentring that ruined the definition on the RH side of the (landscape) image. The replacement was far superior.</p>

<p>Kent, according to Nikon's spec the 75mm f/4.5 LF Nikkor does not cover 5"x4" wide open, let alone allow for any rise/shift.<br>

True the image circle diameter grows to 200mm at f/16, allowing approximately +/- 25mm of shift, but comparatively that's equivalent to around only +/- 8mm of shift on the 24x36mm format. </p>

<p>It's also next-to-impossible to handhold a 5x4 camera at f/16, but with a built-in artificial horizon the use of a shift lens at f/5.6, giving the same D-o-F on a DSLR, is reasonably straightforward (pun intended BTW).</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The Samyang 24mm T/S lens is probably OK <em>if you get a good one</em>. I had the opportunity to try one out at a photo-trade exhibition, and it seemed very good. However I've seen online reviews that tell a very different story, showing absolutely awful definition.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br />I have the Rokinon 24mm T/S (same lens as the Samyang). I find it a bit soft wide open, but stopped down a bit it is razor sharp! I'm happy with my purchase, I paid $550 for a lightly used one on the big auction site!</p>

<p>http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/digital/LD.html</p>

<p>Turn your DSLR into Large format, I've never seen enough pictures of Landscapes or architecture taken with this kind of set up to get really interested. And blatantly limited in terms of portablity.</p>

<p>With post processing for a stitch I've found it helpful to apply Lens Profile in Light room to all the pictures I'm going to use, then once exported, in Photoshop I've found you can only go so far with the horizontal and vertical sliders, with far to much of the image going beyond it's borders, my work around for this is to enlarge the canvas size quite bit so nothing can be lost, mask the image and use the "distort" function in "edit" to manually pull the picture into something I find acceptable, and crop to a final rectangle.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Just to give an idea, I went out today and did a simple shift and flip stitch with the 35 PC in DX format. It was way cold and I did not have the tripod pad tight, so it jiggled a little when I flipped the lens over. However, this is the result with no cropping, to show how nearly rectilinear it gets. The resulting stitch was a bit shy of twice the original pixel width. Needless to say cropping it to 700 pixels wide does not show how crisp it was at 11,800.</p><div></div>