Soak or no soak?

I was about to try Ilford HP4 Plus 125 and was reading about it. The article I was reading stated that if I wanted finer grain and extreme sharpness I should use Ilford Delta 100 and "give it a good soak" before developing. When I first started developing, I would rinse Tri-X a couple times before pouring the developer. I wasn't too impressed with the sharpness but, this could be due to my scanning and/or other factors. Lately I've been loading the reels and going straight for the chemicals. I have achieved some excellent results with HP5 in 135 format and also with Delta 100 in 120 format. What exactly is meant by a "good soak"? I'm looking for sharpness and contrast in the details. Currently I'm using DD-X developer at 68 degrees.

There are myths and lore about what you should or should not do when developing film. Modern films use gelatin as the binder that fastens the light sensitive goodies to the film base. Gelatin is chosen because it is transparent, flexible, has low solubility, and because it swells significantly when wet. This action breaks open the structure allowing the developer to infuse. We agitate to stir the pot; spent developer is expelled, fresh moves in. It takes time for this swelling and the infusion. If the developer is energetic developing time will be short, a pre-soak becomes beneficial encouraging a more uniform infusion.

 

When film is machine processed, a pre-soak is sometimes used. Chemicals are added to temporally harden the film so it can tolerate the igors of a roller transport system. Additionally, in cine film, we soften the annihilation coat to allow easy removal.

 

In my opinion, it is dubious that a pre-soak will have any impact on grain. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a pre-soak will harm.

I'm looking for sharpness and contrast in the details. Currently I'm using DD-X developer at 68 degrees.

 

If you are looking for sharpness, may I suggest you try Ilford Pan F+ in Rodinal (I use 1 + 50 dilution). DD-X is also very good with Pan F, but not quite as sharp as Rodinal.

There are myths and lore about what you should or should not do when developing film. Modern films use gelatin as the binder that fastens the light sensitive goodies to the film base. Gelatin is chosen because it is transparent, flexible, has low solubility, and because it swells significantly when wet. This action breaks open the structure allowing the developer to infuse. We agitate to stir the pot; spent developer is expelled, fresh moves in. It takes time for this swelling and the infusion. If the developer is energetic developing time will be short, a pre-soak becomes beneficial encouraging a more uniform infusion.

 

When film is machine processed, a pre-soak is sometimes used. Chemicals are added to temporally harden the film so it can tolerate the igors of a roller transport system. Additionally, in cine film, we soften the annihilation coat to allow easy removal.

 

In my opinion, it is dubious that a pre-soak will have any impact on grain. On the other hand, it is unlikely that a pre-soak will harm.

 

Thank you for the explanation. Very informative to me. If I do use a pre-soak, how long and want temperature should I use? Also, if the pre-soak softens the gelatin and allows the chemicals to get to the film base quicker or more effectively, would that alter the development times? As you can probably tell, I'm relatively new at this. I'm following the times, agitation, and temperatures indicated in the Massive Dev app.

When I was regularly developing B&W film I would usually pre-soak for 1 minute at 68 degrees F, which was also my developing temperature. One of the arguments for a pre-soak is getting the temperature of the film/tank/reel to the developing temperature if the room you're working in is significantly warmer or colder than the temperature you want to process at. A tray with a water bath for your tank and chemicals is a good idea for the most consistent results.

Thank you for the explanation. Very informative to me. If I do use a pre-soak, how long and want temperature should I use? Also, if the pre-soak softens the gelatin and allows the chemicals to get to the film base quicker or more effectively, would that alter the development times? As you can probably tell, I'm relatively new at this. I'm following the times, agitation, and temperatures indicated in the Massive Dev app.

 

Hi, I don't know if you mean that you're "relatively new" to processing, overall, or only to use of a presoak. If the first case, I'd suggest to get your info from the manufacturer, rather than from internet lore. Ilford film data sheets typically say something to the effect that "A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing." To me, it's not clear if they are specifically recommending AGAINST a prewash, or simply failing to recommend it.

 

If you are simply new to the concept of prewash, I'm not the best source of advice because I never do it. But I'd say, in principle, that a prewash ought to be at the same temperature as the developer, otherwise it will tend to put your film and tanks out of spec, temperature-wise, and there will be some sort of slight temperature shifting going on during the development. Regarding development time, I'd guess that you would need to increase it slightly, as 1) the developer will be slight diluted by the water, and 2) in my estimation initial development will be slowed because the developer does not have quick, full-strength access into the gelatin because it must diffuse into the water that got there first. (But I could be wrong because I'm not speaking from actual experience.)

 

As a note, I have a great deal of commercial/high-volume processing experience, particularly in "process control" (mainly color negative and print, but a handful of B&W process lines with Kodak machine-process developers), and we never used developer prewashes. They were never specifically recommended by the manufacturers in any mainstream processes FOR STILL PHOTOGRAPHY that I know of. However, I would be open to experiment in the event that I had encountered some oddball processing issue, or simply to put some sort of question (such as your improved sharpness issue) to bed. Best luck on your experimentation.

 

Ps, I'm from the US, and I know there can be substantial variations in water quality across the country . It is generally considered that there will be less gelatin swelling in "harder" waters, so this is something to keep in mind; basically you don't want to jump around to different water sources during testing. I'm not familiar with the Ilford films you're using, but if they are strongly prehardened, then you expect the swelling effect to be minimal. Other films might behave differently, though. Be wary of very soft waters, such as distilled.

I had a few air bells on my negs many decades ago. Then I was more careful about initial agitation and didn't have an air bell for 50 years. This with 35mm film and occasional 4"x5" sheets in an inversion tank.

 

When I moved to 120 size film, I got some artifacts on my negs that I wouldn't describe as actual air bells but small disks of slightly less density that were visible only on clear sky, not parts of the image with detail (also inversion tank). I tried extra agitation and rapping the tank to dislodge any bubbles that might have been on the film for a brief time but the problem didn't go away. Then for the first time I tried a good plain water presoak with agitation and the problem went away. Water here is fairly soft if that makes a difference I don't know. Possible particles in developer are very unlikely. Anyway, that's my experience even if I can't explain it.

Diafine specifically says no presoak.

 

Diafine depends on the film soaking up a certain amount of part A, which then develops the film in part B.

 

Presoak can mean that less A gets soaked in.

 

For other developers, the times might be a little different.

 

As well as I know, the usual times given are with no presoak, otherwise they would specify it.

Thank you for the explanation. Very informative to me. If I do use a pre-soak, how long and want temperature should I use? Also, if the pre-soak softens the gelatin and allows the chemicals to get to the film base quicker or more effectively, would that alter the development times? As you can probably tell, I'm relatively new at this. I'm following the times, agitation, and temperatures indicated in the Massive Dev app.

@ Randall -- We try very hard to keep all fluids the same temperature, this includes wash water. Best to adjust the chemicals and pre-soak to align with running water temperature. If I were to pre-soak I would choose 4 to 5 minutes. Make no change to the developer time or any other bath. I would use a pre-soak only if the normal developing time was less then 5 minutes.

Hi, I don't know if you mean that you're "relatively new" to processing, overall, or only to use of a presoak.

 

I have been developing for a couple years now. I learned everything from the internet. The first several rolls I developed I would, per internet instructions, rinse a couple times before adding chemicals to the tank. I was disappointed with the results. I found out later that my scanning of the negatives was the main problem and have now solved that issue. Additionally, I wasn't paying attention to temperatures at all. For the past six months or so I have been shooting more film than digital. I can see on the internet that one can achieve as sharp a result wit film as with digital and this is my goal. I have found that the film type makes a significant difference in the outcome and began experimenting with different films. I like HP5 but Delta 100 seems to be sharper. I guess the best advise is to follow the film's box instructions with developing and that pre-soak is just internet folklore.

@ Randall -- We try very hard to keep all fluids the same temperature,

 

I'm very careful with temperatures now as the water from the tap comes out at about 75 degrees as do my chemicals stored in the cabinet. I use tap water. The quality of tap water in Hawaii is very good. Although I hear that some use distilled water, I haven't yet. Depending on where you buy it, one could pay anywhere from $1 to $3 a gallon for distilled water. All my chemicals get their time in the refrigerator until they hit 68 degrees before I use them now.

Swollen gelatine should result in coarser grain and less sharpness in theory. The gelatine matrix constrains grain growth, so the more swollen and 'loose' it is, the easier it is for filamentary silver to penetrate; giving larger 'grains' and hence a more diffuse edge to detail.

 

(Silver 'grains' aren't really grains. The silver is extruded from AgX crystals in the form of filaments during development.)

 

This pre-soak advice, as Alan says, sounds like myth and lore, based on no scientific proof whatsoever.

 

The only time a presoak is really needed is with rotary agitation, and that's to prevent tide lines and foaming marks, not to reduce grain or improve sharpness.

 

"I learned everything from the internet."

 

- Oh dear.

The most useful lesson to learn from the internet, is not to trust anything you read on the internet.

Edited July 10, 2018 by rodeo_joe|1

So, by randall, and alan_marcus|2, I have had very indifferent outcomes with HP5. Lot's of 'grit' on the negs. They show up as white spots on the scanned negs. I initially put that down to grit in the tap water, so tried with my last roll, filtered water. And yes a pre-wash - I have always done this, just worried about evenness of saturation of the developer. And got lots of spotting, and indeed, some parts of the neg that were just white, as if there was no emulsion. I used Ilfosol 3. Fresh fixer, again with filtered water. Just exploring things, but has anyone else had quality control issues with HP5 and its emulsion coating? Or am I doing something wrong. Next step is distilled water throughout, but that makes film even more prohibitive, cost wise. I haven't had the same problem, or at least, not so dramatically, with FP4. Any advice appreciated. regards, Arthur (apiarist1)

I'm very careful with temperatures now as the water from the tap comes out at about 75 degrees as do my chemicals stored in the cabinet. I use tap water. The quality of tap water in Hawaii is very good. Although I hear that some use distilled water, I haven't yet. Depending on where you buy it, one could pay anywhere from $1 to $3 a gallon for distilled water. All my chemicals get their time in the refrigerator until they hit 68 degrees before I use them now.

I do my normal wash with normal tap water, apart from the final rinse, for which I use distilled. I 'centrifuge' my tank (accelerate it bodily, towards the bath tub) , to rid it of as much normal tap water as possible, then put about 250ml of distilled with a few drops of wash-aid, rinse around for a minute of so, then hang the negs from the shower head, pour the final rinse water over both sides of the negs and ban the family from entering. In general, I get very few water marks or dust spots.

@arthur: I haven't had quality issues with HP5 and I haven't seen it with my students either. But I haven't used Ilfosol and they don't either--the college where I teach provides Sprint film developer which is a liquid concentrate that seems to work very much like Kodak D 76.

I have had very indifferent outcomes with HP5. Lot's of 'grit' on the negs. They show up as white spots on the scanned negs. I initially put that down to grit in the tap water, so tried with my last roll, filtered water. And yes a pre-wash - I have always done this, just worried about evenness of saturation of the developer. And got lots of spotting, and indeed, some parts of the neg that were just white, as if there was no emulsion. I used Ilfosol 3. Fresh fixer, again with filtered water. Just exploring things, but has anyone else had quality control issues with HP5 and its emulsion coating? Or am I doing something wrong. Next step is distilled water throughout, but that makes film even more prohibitive, cost wise. I haven't had the same problem, or at least, not so dramatically, with FP4. Any advice appreciated. regards, Arthur (apiarist1)

 

I'm probably not the right person to answer but, in my experience, I have had spotting with Ilfosol 3 and HP5. It wasn't so bad that I couldn't fix in PS after scanning. I'm using DD-X now and there is hardly any spotting. Problem I had with Ilfolsol 3 was that I developed a roll one week and everything was good. A week later I developed another roll and the negatives were very thin as if there was almost no development. I was following all the temperatures, time, and agitation correctly. With a little research I found that Ilfosol 3 has a sudden death when it reaches shelf life. It had turned yellow and that probably should have been my warning. Now I try to only mix enough chemicals to use over a few days instead of a whole gallon.

Hello everyone. Once again I throw out my Igloo cooler system. All liquids required to develop & wash a 135-36 or 120 roll to Ilford specs. No need to gather up this & that, it's all in the same bucket, at the same temps. Randall, I use this in Waimanalo & here on the mainland. Unless the temps are below 65 f or above 80f, a sliding time is used. Over/under these temps & a hot/cold water charge is added to bring the temps around. 3 min pre-soak on everything. Developers are one shots (currently PyrocatHD or Obsidian Aqua). Only presoak / final wash & developer are distilled water, the rest is Brita filtered tap water. Aloha, from the Mainland. Bill

I'm very careful with temperatures now as the water from the tap comes out at about 75 degrees as do my chemicals stored in the cabinet. I use tap water. The quality of tap water in Hawaii is very good. Although I hear that some use distilled water, I haven't yet. Depending on where you buy it, one could pay anywhere from $1 to $3 a gallon for distilled water. All my chemicals get their time in the refrigerator until they hit 68 degrees before I use them now.

@ Randall --- I advise adjusting all fluids to the temperature of the running water. Slight variations OK but five degrees difference can induce insipid reticulation which resembles grain. I advise using straight tap water as opposed to distilled water. Maybe some benefit if the final rinse is made using purified water.

when using sheet film, fomapan 100 i prewash/soak to get rid of the green antihalation coloring on the back of the film.

 

when using tmy400 120 roll film i dont pre soak.

 

ive experimented with pre soak/wash n found it makes no difference in picture quality, but was needed to remove antihalation color on my sheet film so my developer would stay clear.

@ Randall --- I advise adjusting all fluids to the temperature of the running water. Slight variations OK but five degrees difference can induce insipid reticulation which resembles grain. I advise using straight tap water as opposed to distilled water. Maybe some benefit if the final rinse is made using purified water.

 

Sudden temperature changes are bad. Slow ones, not so bad.

 

I usually keep bottles with tap water, so it will be at the same temperature as the rest of the chemicals.

 

After fix, I pour from one of those bottles into the tank, with the lid off (or with it on, and then remove it).

(I also use these for the non-acid rinse between Diafine and fixer.)

 

With the tank still full, I put it under the tap, on low, close to the same temperature.

 

If the temperature is different, or changes with time, the changes will be diluted by the water in

the tank, and should be slow enough not to cause problems.

I have had very indifferent outcomes with HP5. Lot's of 'grit' on the negs. They show up as white spots on the scanned negs. I initially put that down to grit in the tap water, so tried with my last roll, filtered water. And yes a pre-wash - I have always done this, just worried about evenness of saturation of the developer. And got lots of spotting...

 

Grit on the negs, yes its likely to be coming from the water line, so worth looking into. I don't know what kind of filtration you tried, but it might be worth going finer. Something like 2 or 3 micron rating should be fine enough, perhaps only for a test.

 

I presume that store-bought water, distilled or not, is pretty well filtered, so might be an easy way to test. It might be worth pouring some (or even tap water) through a coffee filter to see if it collects any visible debris (inspect it with a strong loupe).

 

Did you try wiping the 'grit' off the film? If so, was this successful? And does it feel gritty to the touch?

Thanks by randall, AJG, and Bill C. I think I will try a different developer, and store bought distilled water. I can't feel any grit on the negs, and attach a sample shot. Now that's done go to woe with filtered water (though filtered by a kitchen stefani bench filter). There's clearly some fibre filaments as well as dust, and a patch to the top right where there doesn't seem to be any emulsion. Maybe environmental dust from hang drying. I live in the rural hinterland of the east cost of oz. The local camera house only sells ilfosol 3, I keep it in the fridge - so I'm wondering also, if refrigeration may cause partial crystallization of some of it's components (I don't know its chemistry). I have a packet of ID-11, which I understand is pretty close to D-76. Will try that. And yes, in my experience of Ilfosol, it can suddenly, and rather arbitrarily, stop working. I think I'll also vacuum the cameras innards (in this case a little used zorki). Thanks for the advice, Arthur (apiarist1)

 

Maybe environmental dust from hang drying.

 

Hi, given the amount of little fibers present I suspect this might be part of it. I've heard of people using those plastic "hanging wardrobe" things as drying cabinets; something like that may be useful to you (they hang on the rail in your closet, have a wire frame at the top to hold shape, and a zipper or two to get in).

 

It's hard to troubleshoot something like this without a known-good starting point. If you had a low-power microscope available I'd suggest to examine particles, see if they're embedded or laying on the surface, etc. Without that, you could try using a strong loupe on still-wet film to see if the debris is there before drying, etc. A lot of the time there are much one or two main problems, and that's what you would be trying to identify.

 

If your air is really dry there will be a constant battle again dust. Pro labs try to keep humidity (RH) about 50% give or take, and this helps tremendously.

For drying 4x5 negs, I have had a substantial reduction in dust with the following drying container.

 

Buy a medium sized plastic box, and a high quality furnace filter that more than covers the edges. Vacuum both well. Line the bottom of the box with paper towels. Put the drying film in the box, on the towels, leaned up against the sides, emulsion side slanted downward toward the outside of the box so any dust falling lands on the slick side. Cover the box with the vacuumed furnace filter.

 

In my 110 year old house, the ambient dust storm is massive. The drying box above is a substantial, if not yet perfect, improvement.

Very good idea Brad. Replace the paper towels with a large micro fiber cloth & things will be Mo-Betta ! Bill