Shutter count

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by jeb_jones, Oct 2, 2010.

  1. Hello, I just rceived my new Nikon d300s from B&H and, just out of curiosity (since this is my first brand new camera in quite a while), I decided to check the shutter count from a very reliable site that I have used before. The count was a surprising 189. Should I be surprised? Is this a normal number of shutter clicks for a new, from the factory (NOT re-furbished) camera? I realize that the cameras are tested, but...... I have gone on-line to attempt to have this question answered but to no avail? Did I get a slightly used one that was returned? Is this number within the "accepted limits" for a new camera. I have been unable to contact B&H as they are closed for Holiday, but I just want to get some information before calling them. My gut feeling is to send the camera back since I feel that for 1500 bucks, new should be NEW! If the number is "ball park", then that's a different matter. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Every "new" body i've gotten has had a few clicks (less than 200) on it.
    In fact I just had a shutter replaced on a D300 - old shutter had 133,000+ on it. Came back - new shutter had 161 on it.
    I use opanda to check - they're very good and accurate -
    It could be that the body was out in the store for a day or so or that they (B and H) tested it before they shipped - added to what the manufacturer did.
    Consider this before you ship it back - the body is rated to 150,000 - so you've still got over 149,500 left. Also - you have a full warranty to back you up on it - so if there are issues - you can get it fixed.
    Dave
     
  3. "My gut feeling is to send the camera back ..."
    B&H is an ethical and trustworthy retailer. I sincerely doubt that they would sell a returned camera as "new". AFAIK these returns are sent back to Nikon USA, because once the camera is sold and shipped to a customer, the retailer has no knowledge of what might have happened to it while it was in the possession of the customer. So they get sent back to Nikon (in this case to Melville, NY) to be thoroughly inspected and tested. That's the source of the large majority of the "factory refurbs" that you see for sale.
    Unless you see obvious signs of prior use, sending back a factory boxed new product because it has 189 shutter releases is just a bit obsessive compulsive. What are you going to do when the replacement camera arrives and it has 98 shutter releases? Or 132? Where do you draw the line?
    Relax and enjoy your new camera.
     
  4. I would call and ask someone at Nikon what they think about this. My D-90 which release date is not very old (August 08) has just turned over 10,000 shots. It now reads 2548. I could sell this camera and people would not really know if it has 12,548 or 2548. I think your model release date is July 09. If the count starts over at 10,000 could your camera be 10,189 after 14 months or less? To me that would equate to about 4 weddings at my rate of average 2500 per wedding. Ask if the shutter resets to zero at 10,000 or ? etc.
     
  5. If no other signs of obvious use, then I would be happy knowing that there is still some "quality control" department doing their job! Especially these days!
    When I purchased my 50D, it was the last one the retailer had in stock and I was advised it had been the display since earlier that morning. I got $100. US off the price without asking, and was assured I could return it for a new one if I chose to in about two weeks when their stock order was in.
    I've had a "long standing" relationship with this local retailer and the salesperson, so I had no hestitation, especially with the additional discount offer! Even without the $100 off, I would have taken it! I've never checked the shutter count and probably won't till it's replaced!
    I expect B&H would exchange it (if you don't use it) for another, but where do you decide the "acceptable level" should be?
     
  6. "My D-90 which release date is not very old (August 08) has just turned over 10,000 shots. It now reads 2548 ..."
    Jon - are you sure your shutter count has reset? Because that doesn't make any sense if the EXIF data is being correctly read.
     
  7. Every new camera here I have bought has a hundred or two clicks on it too. Maybe they actually test the things in Nikon quality control; and do not reset the counter?
    Maybe somebody at B&H tested it so you got a known good unit?
    Eons ago many of us PURPOSELY asked dealers to confirm the camera worked; you wanted and requested that an actual live person check the item; so in a pro application that photo device was not a DOA/dud.
    In surveying and some other optical items folks want and demand that a dealer check out and the performance of the optical device; if you do not it is a massive negative against you as a dealer. With these items they might be factory aligned in China; Japan or the USA and then they get sometimes missaligned in shipping to dealers.ie the client gets the item is DOA or missaligned or has issues; and thus you as dealer gets blamed. It is a liability issue; a contractor wants a known good level to set the forms for a big slab; not a roll the dice Home Box store gamble; that is sealed. Thus in pro work; folks want a dealer to check out the items; and in amateur work folks want a sealed box and roll the dice. Thus the sealed level here is sold as is; since it might be off; and that slab's tilt is the contractors; not mine.
    Same goes with cameras; some of us want KEH to check out the X sync on a leaf shutter; and pay extra to have the item checked
    Other folks want a sealed box; with not actual dealer confirming the device is not DOA.
    Shutter clicks seems to be a big worry for many folks on photo.net. Most all cameras really die due to being dropped or dunked with water; thus click worry is often irrational.
    Here I would personally pay B&H extra cash to have Henry's folks shoot 200 clicks; so they known good tested item I am buying is working well. I use to due this back in the 1970's with Olden camera; with new and used items. I wanted a real human to place some clicks on the camera; so very no issues.
    So what number of clicks on that new camera is your concern?
    Would you return it for 1,3, 30,100 clicks too?
     
  8. Jon -
    My guess is that you are looking at the file / image name / number - that will reset at 10,000 shots. As far as I know - there is no way short of a software hack to change the # of clicks on a shutter.
    If you download Opanda exif reader - and open a photo with it - it will tell you the actual number of shutter clicks on the body. It is very accurate.
    Dave
     
  9. I would forget about it and enjoy my camera.
     
  10. follow up to the D-90 starting over at 10,000. I can find nothing in the manual or the file information in photoshop, or the Opanda exif reader which I downloaded, but I find this on the web
    "
    DCRP Review:
    Nikon D90

    Images are named using the following convention: DSC_####.JPG, where #### is 0001 - 9999. File numbering is maintained ever if you switch or erase memory cards.
    http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d90-review/using
     
  11. File numbering and number of shutter releases (embedded in the EXIF info) are two different data points.
    I'm pretty sure that all Nikon DSLRs have a limit of 9999 for file numbering.
     
  12. Actually if anyone can specify where I can find my shutter release data I would like to know. I'm just not stumbling onto the location as of yet (D-90)
     
  13. Jon, you cant find that info on the D90, you need an external program like opanda exif to do it. Or if you are using a mac you can get it from preview.
     
  14. Ray House

    Ray House Ray House

    Jon, download IPhoto (free) and you can check your actuations. I prefer this program to Opanda.
     
  15. The Apple iPhoto program is only available on new Macintosh computers, or part of the Macintosh iLife package for $79, you cannot download it.
     
  16. Ray House

    Ray House Ray House

    Opps...I made a huge Senior Moment! Sorry, but what I meant to write was PhotoMe. Thank you Michael for your info.
     
  17. I have purchased a number of Nikon DSLRs brand new, and all of them have arrived with a shutter count of '1' except for a refurbished body I bought once, which had a shutter count of '98'.
     
  18. I can't find anything in my D90 manual or through the menus that lets me figure out how many shutter clicks I have to date. I have to load some software? where do I get this software?
     
  19. Allan, have you not read all the posts here? If you have a Mac, you can use Preview or iPhoto, for a PC you need to download software.
     
  20. My understanding is that when the factory checks have been carried out the bodies are reset to zero and then packed
    for distribution. A large number of Nikons pass through my hands every year for onward resale and I always check the
    shutter actuations, where possible, beforehand. For most buyers it is an important piece of info in the decision making
    process. Refurbs I have inspected have ranged from single figures to the low hundreds. I bought an end of line D200 a
    couple of years back , brand new, sealed box. After unpacking, I inserted the battery and a new CF card and fired one
    shot to ensure camers was not DOA and put the single file through Opanda Exif 2.3 - total no. shutter actuations - 1 !
    Just as it should be. If you are buying new you do not expect the box to have a broken seal, it certainly should not be a
    demo, and if it is, with a few hundred shots on it there should be a reasonable discount given. At least that is how things
    normally happen except when something like the D7000 turns up. Nikon punters like myself would happily buy a low
    mileage demo for a hundred bucks over retail just so we can get our sticky mitts on a very desirable Nikon ahead of the
    crowd!
     
  21. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Moderator

    This is a major down side that we can now check the number of shutter actuations. I have captured more than 200 images in an hour. The fact that your new camera might have 189 actuations on it already is meaningless in the long run when cameras are rated to have 150000 actuations. As long as your camera is working perfectly, just start taking picutres instead of worrying about a meaningless small number and generate a lot of totally unnecessary work for yourself and B&H.
    The other day my wife and I went to a Honda dealer, and they let us test drive two new cars from the lot. I put perhaps 5 additional miles on each car. Are they all of a sudden less than perfect and should be avoided? I bought my current Honda new back in 1994, and that 16-year-old car now has over 120K miles on it. Another 5 miles on it is totally meaningless.
     
  22. The answer is Yes! They are no longer new and are treated differently for tax reasons because they are demonstrators.
    Those Hondas you drove - even if they have only a couple of hundred miles on them when they are eventually sold cannot
    be sold as new. Same with cameras.
     
  23. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Moderator

    Mark, I am sure those two Hondas we test drove will be sold as new, because they gave us the exact cars we were interested to test drive: we were very specific about 2-wheel drive vs. 4-wheel drive, how many cylinders, option packages, etc., just not the exact color. I am sure that the dealer did not have that many different demo cars and they would not turn every car in the lot into demos. (I would have no trouble buying those cars as new, either. When we bought the current 1994 Honda, we specified a manual-transmission station wagon with the color we wanted. It was quite rare. Our dealer at the time swap a car with another dealer in a neighboring state. He drove a car there and then drove our car back so that both cars had over 100 miles on them. That was the odometer reading when we got the car, and it is still running fine 16 years and 120K miles later.)
    Again, it is not like it is a courtesy loaner car that may have 15000 miles on it, neither does the camera in question have 7000 shutter actuations. When people return perfectly fine new cameras with 189 actuations and B&H cannot sell it as new any more, the cost for the loss in value, shipping and handling will eventually be passed along to all of us. In the old days when we could not check shutter actuation, this was never a problem, neither are lenses today since you cannot check whether a lens has been used a few times. That is why sometimes I wish we could not check shutter actuations.
    The problem is all psychological.
     
  24. Actually Mark all cars come new with some mileage on them, for one they are driven onto the ships that transport them (if they are imported) or they are driven onto the transport trucks, then driven off them and driven to position them in the dealer lot. IIRC when I worked at a Toyota dealership cars were allowed to have around 100 miles on them and still be considered new. I don''t think I ever saw a vehicle with zero miles on it. As far as the camera goes, I wouldn't worry too much about it in the overall scheme of things, 169 shutter fires is around .1% of the total expected life span.
    William
     
  25. I have used irfanview from irfanview.com as a great review freeware for over 10 years. It has some editing features (crop, resize) that work very well. While viewing a photo, if you hit "i" on your keyboard, it will bring up an information popup window, that will allow you to select EXIF information. As you scroll down near the bottom, there will be information on the number of shutter clicks.
     
  26. 189 shutter clicks is brand spanking new IMHO.
     
  27. B&H came thru for me in a very satisfying way. They gave me the option of returning the camera for another. They stated that cameras are, of course, tested at Nikon, but not usually to this extent. I thanked them, stated that I was happy with the camera's performance and am keeping it. Thanks to all of for your input!
     
  28. Mark; I bought a new car and it had 152 miles on it.
    Cars CAN and are sold as new with this number of miles; so are cameras too.

    All the cars at the original order dealership were physically driven to the dealer that bought them; thus all had at least 90 miles on them; the entire lot was like this.

    I test drove about 10 new cars and put about 3 miles on each; before buying my car.

    New in cars can mean never titled; it really is not about miles; unless folks know a Federal code:.

    A Federal code here mentions 300 miles:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00032705----000-.html
    For purposes of subparagraph (A), the term “new motor vehicle” means any motor vehicle driven with no more than the limited use necessary in moving, transporting, or road testing such vehicle prior to delivery from the vehicle manufacturer to a dealer, but in no event shall the odometer reading of such vehicle exceed 300 miles.

    Probably a law like this would be good for cameras too; since so many worry warts worry about shutter clicks!
    About every new camera have seen; or even copy machine has its counter not at zero. My dads 1961 Plymouth he bought in Detroit when the first came out had about 100 miles on it when he drove it home; thus it had about 80 miles on it when he bought it.
    A giant 230 volt copy machine we uncrated as new had a few hundred square feet on it when we opened it up; now it has about 1 million.
     
  29. If the factory can reset that cameras counter to zero after testing to please worry warts; so too can a hacker or crummy dealership; or flakey repair shop if the hack gets known.
    Thus a future concern is the lay crowd worships clicks;and thus hackers play into their "need" for low clicks; by lowering the key variable many newcomers seem to worship today as holy.
    We are in uncharted waters; look at how many fake memory cards are floating around on Ebay.
    Look at how much software is hacked and used for free
    I wonder if the next adventure is luring folks with used dlsr bodies on Ebay is with a "rolled back" shutter click; since the bulk of folks on this thread worship the low numbers as holy.
    This would be used sellers dream; you buy a camera ; use it for months; roll back the counter to zero; and shoot again so the clicks match what the dents and wear are! Just like a 1960's car!
    The real question is if and when the rollback hack gets known and used as a weapon. Since so many folks worship clicks as a great parameter; it is bound to vary used item pricing. A hacker has a price motive to roll the clicks back; you will pay him more cash!
    Maybe these hacks will never surface; if they do it will be interesting
     
  30. Thank you all for putting me straight! I knew there was a legal mileage limit on what might be construed by a dealership as new.It's a long time since I heard of a car being driven to a dealership as part of the distribution practice; in my neck of the woods they all come in on giant car loaders - 20 at a time!. And if you order a Bugatti Veyron, rather than a Toyota Camry, it comes on it's own low loader, not driven 200 miles by some young speed merchant from the depot. I guess I just wouldn't be happy with anything that's been "driven" before and that applies equally to cameras, cars and my Calvin Kleins. I have no doubt though that the country is full of 13 1/2 year old hackers who can unlock the software mysteries of Iphones, cars and cameras in 10 minutes.........
     
  31. Just out of interest Mercedes dealers in the UK zero all milage readings to zero prior to delivery. The computer system lets them do it but I think only up to a max of a couple of hundred miles.
     
  32. Read this thread a week or two ago and checked my cameras and discovered a discrepancy that lead to a small mystery.
    Bought D50 from J&R NYC, Image 0001 when viewed through OS X Preview shows 13 shutter actuations. No problem.
    Bought D90 from Amazon, Image 0001 when viewed through OS X Preview shows 1 shutter actuation. Cool.
    Just for kicks, I checked the last image I shot for each camera.
    D50
    The last image shot was actuation 11,517. The file image number was 11,258. The difference: 259.
    D90
    The last image shot was actuation 3115. The file image number is 2593. Difference: 522.
    Big whoop right? Whatever causes the actuations to jump ahead (a couple file number resets at the beginning of ownership), the D50 seemed about right, but the D90 did not. I had the file numbering option on from the beginning. So what accounts for the drift? The easiest way I found was to check the file name and image number at the beginning and end of a large group of images shot at once. Yesterday, I shot a 1-year old's birthday party. The difference in file name number and image number (in OS X Preview) was 516. The last image shot shows a difference of 522. I found a range of 4 images with consecutive file name numbers, but the image number in Preview jumped 2 digits between each file number.
    What causes the file number to count consecutively and the image number in the EXIF data to jump by two at times? The camera was fine, not bumped, not too warm, all the images shot at that time were with the same camera settings, camera was not turned off and on, etc. I download my images through Adobe bridge with a USB cable.
    I'd prefer my image numbers to run consecutively, but if they don't no big deal. I am now skeptical of the EXIF data concerning image numbers at least when viewed through Preview. For now, I prefer the system as is with the folder dated the day of the shoot and consecutive image numbers. If anyone has different ways of checking image numbers, I will send you a sample image and you can check the numbers. Let me know.
     

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