Should Nikon update Df?

What do you think? Do you need a virtual (fictional) updated version of Df (D5 sensor, D5 shutter)? Would it be a popular bestseller if it ever exists?

Very pleased with my DF - If Nikon were to produce a DF II and I liked the features / price I would be very likely to buy one. I also have and use a D 750 and D 7200. Each has advantages for certain photographic genres.

I don’t think the Df has ever been a best seller. Rather it is a niche product and it mainly appeals to senior photographers who have been active since the 1960’s or even 1950’s. When the Df was introduced back in 2013, it already didn’t have the newest technology. E.g. its AF module was the D600’s Multi-CAM 4800 rather than the 3500 that came with the D3 in 2007 and D800 in 2012. The Df’s 16MP was far fewer than those on the D800 and D600 at the time.

 

If Nikon is to produce another retro camera, maybe it should be a “rangefinder” in the Z mount, but it’ll have to be a few years from now when more native Z-mount lenses are available.

 

Currently Nikon’s priority is to expand the Z system and produce a D6 for the Tokyo Olympics.

Edited December 12, 2018 by ShunCheung

If Nikon is to produce another retro camera, maybe it should be a “rangefinder”

I'll go along with that till you get to Z Mount. I (and the likely DF II customer group) have too many lenses old and new in F mount - yes there are adapters - I have one for my Ricoh GXR, and it works quite well with F mount, but IMO correct lens mount for camera works the best. A rangefinder that would take virtually every F mount, considering the countless lenses in that mount out there, could well be a big winner.

I usually don't get to buy cameras until they're a few years old, so wouldn't be an immediate customer for a new Df 2 or whatever they called it.

 

I've been CLOSE to buying an original Df, but by the time I'd decided to go for it someone beat me to it it.

 

In any case, I'd think the D5 sensor would be right at home.

 

I hate SD cards, and even though they're expensive Nikon is moving almost exclusively to XQD(and I'm guessing CFExpress in the future) on their higher end cameras. I would like to see it get XQD support-and ideally move the card to the side of the camera and not under the battery door. It works on the Z6 and Z7, which are smaller than the Df, so I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

This won't happen, but given that this is a camera DESIGNED to be used with MF lenses, I'd like to see Nikon return to the D2/D200 method of inputting non-CPU lens data. If nothing else, give us more than 9 non-CPU settings, since for folks who use a lot of MF lenses 9 just isn't enough(I'm bad about often using something "close enough"-i.e. I don't have my 135mm f/2.8 set up in most of my cameras, so use the 105 f/2.5 instead).

 

The only other thing I can think of is to put a lock on flip-up AI tab. Nikon figured this out with the EL2 and Nikkormat FTN in 1977, and they will still fit one to the F6 if you talk to the right person and pay enough. Why doesn't a $3K DSLR get this treatment?

I would like to see a Df II, but I don't think there will be one; there isn't enough demand.

I would like to see a Df II, but I don't think there will be one; there isn't enough demand.

Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Of course the demand for the Df has always been low. And if the objective is to use old AI and pre-AI lenses on one, there is no point to use a dense-pixel sensor to reveal all the optical flaws from 4, 5 decades ago. Hence Nikon went with the D4’s 16 MP sensor, lowest pixel count that was then currently available back in 2013. And there was no point to put great AF on it.

 

So what exactly should be improved and updated from the existing Df in order to sell more cameras.

Better sensor - (I'd bet most of us who have the DF use our modern lenses at least as much as the legacy lenses). Better battery door design - though I've never needed one, a battery grip. Better Remote capability - the MC-DC2 remote cord works well, would like the ML-L3 wireless to work with it as well. Nit picking - a metal bottom plate - despite care taken, the finish wears off the corners of the current bottom plate. No interest in WiFi, GPS, etc. Actually, the camera performs beautifully as is and the one I grab first for a day out with a camera & lens.

If Nikon had had the Df back in 2004, I'd still be shooting Nikons as my primary systems.

 

I still use my large collection of non-AI lenses on Canons with adapters and on my film Nikons.

 

But, unless I can find one 'pre-owned' for cheap, I'm unlikely to buy one now, revised or not.

The seem to have something in common with Jeeps - high resale. Lowest price I've seen is around $1,250 Online - about the same money will get you a D 4.

If Nikon had had the Df back in 2004, I'd still be shooting Nikons as my primary systems.

 

I still use my large collection of non-AI lenses on Canons with adapters and on my film Nikons.

 

But, unless I can find one 'pre-owned' for cheap, I'm unlikely to buy one now, revised or not.

Well, Nikon didn’t have any FX body until 3 years after 2004, and of course their initial priority wasn’t a retro niche camera; instead it was a pro D3 for the Olympics to reestablish the brand.

 

The Df is never going to be cheap. The old design is labor-intensive to make and Nikon has to do that in Japan instead of the cheaper labor in Thailand or China.

 

But nothing prevents you from getting a used Df or other Nikon DSLR to use old lenses. I never like adapters, including the FTZ.

But nothing prevents you from getting a used Df or other Nikon DSLR to use old lenses.

Alas without conversion, most digital Nikons will NOT safely mount non-AI lenses despite the meme of "same mount always".

 

My first Canon was an APS-C format, so it was the mount, not the format that was the problem in 2004. Someday, when the Df gets cheap enough for me, I will get a used one. But that point has not yet arrived.

I would like to see a Df II, but I don't think there will be one; there isn't enough demand.

At my local camera store I was told that they did not sell a single Df to anyone who didn't come into the store already with the intent to purchase one. Or in other words, the Df held no appeal to anyone outside a limited range of customers (which I don't think necessarily consist only of the group Shun mentioned). For some, the chance to get a D4 sensor "on the cheap" might have been the main driving force, not necessarily the retro design of the body or the adaptability of old lenses. Incidentally, I believe that a mirrorless camera is much more suited to adapt old lenses than a DSLR - focus peaking and instant magnification are two main advantages to be listed here. Image stabilization is another plus.

Unless you are a collector who wants to keep pristine lenses, I don’t see why you don’t want to AI convert those old pre-AI lenses; AI is much easier to use.

 

I switched to Nikon in 1977, which happens to be the year Nikon changed to AI. Hence I own no pre-AI lens. And that was 41 years ago.

 

And of course there are the D5000 and D3000 bodies that you can mount pre-AI directly, but you are stuck with the DX crop.

I don’t see why you don’t want to AI convert those old pre-AI lenses;

Have had numerous lenses AI'd by John White of AI Conversions, a few with factory kit. Quick, reasonable, and a very nice fellow.

Mounted via adapter on a mirrorless, it does not matter whether the lens is Ai or not. One is losing the automatic diaphragm - which isn't strictly needed anyway. One can focus and meter at any given aperture - it doesn't get much better and easier than that.

it doesn't get much better and easier than that.

 

Sorry Dieter, I have mirrorless that will take the lenses - but for me, Nikkor on Nikon. I like my GXR and Leica D Lux just fine, but when it comes down to it, IMO, the FX Nikons are more flexible, and I believe more capable. If it came down to it, I'd shoot my Nikon film cameras in preference to using the lenses on adapters,

I'll take a manual focus Nikkor on a Z6 anytime over it attached on any SLR or DSLR. I just got a manual focus IRIX 15mm f/2.4 and I'd rather use it on a mirrorless (where focusing it wouldn't be an issue at all) than on the D810 (where it is not easy to focus at all - but luckily what I use it for, it's manageable).

 

There's been long threads about the issues of using non-Ai lenses on the Df - none of which would apply when these lenses are adapted to a Nikon Z body. Which, incidentally, is still "Nikkor on Nikon". The need for an adapter can make for awkward handling though.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

IMO - Adapters are a bit like kissing through a chain link fence you get the general idea, it sorta works, but something is lacking. ;)

Nikon briefly toyed with a refresh of the Df as an anniversary gimmick, but never seriously considered doing it. The entire misbegotten Df saga is something Nikon would rather forget, actually: it generated gobs of derision at the worst possible moment for the company, diverting resources to something that didn't even prove useful as a halo PR emblem. That it still somehow managed to achieve a small strong cult following is a testament that some photographers will always love an odd duck.

 

Two things doomed the Df: bad timing, and Nikon's gutless design-by-committee corporate culture. The original idea, which Nikon intentionally flooded rumor sites with, was to answer Fuji's and Leica's popular retro-cams with a "Digital FE2". People who primarily wanted a digital vehicle for their manual AI and pre-AI lenses had been clamoring for such a "Leica M9" type of body: compact, silver-black retro looks, physical controls, split-image groundglass focus screen ala KatzEye, and lose the AF for simplicity and compactness. Nikon teased and teased that they were gonna go rogue and actually deliver on this "Compact MF DSLR"concept. But what they finally unveiled was the Df: a shotgun marriage of the FA and D600, emphasizing their respective drawbacks while minimizing their advantages. The D4 sensor was an innovative touch: otherwise, meh.

 

Yes, yes, I know: some of you love the Df to pieces. Thats understandable: the combination of physical controls, D4 sensor and pre-AI compatibility distinguishes it nicely for some photographers and projects. But on the whole, it failed its pipe-dream objective: too large, too ugly, the physical controls are badly implemented, the unloved D600 AF module does it no favors, no split-image K focus screen option, and it cost nearly twice what the target audience was prepared to pay. Much of this was down to bad timing: the press was full of stories that the camera market was in a fatal decline, R&D money was getting tighter, and full frame sensors were still outrageously expensive. When it came down to actually producing a "Digital FE2", Nikon blinked: they were terrified a dedicated MF-only body was far too niche and would need to sell for more than the D4 to recoup its costs. Mission creep set in, and the silver D600 with shutter knob was released instead (to groans and laughter, more at the price than anything else). Sales were strong at first in some key markets, but quickly died down to a steady trickle. Supply constraints make it hard to find at dealers sometimes, giving the impression it must be a hot commodity. Really its just Nikon's typical lousy stock management.

 

Presumably Nikon will keep selling the Df as long as parts and demand hold out. It remains useful to them as a secondary platform for the D4 sensor: perhaps it might get refreshed if they do actually introduce a D6 with new sensor. Too bad we'll likely never see the "Digital FE2" now: it isn't viable for Nikon to make at anything approaching a reasonable price point. The closest we can get is slapping MF Nikkors on other brand, smaller mirrorless bodies via adapter. Or the Zs, I suppose (tho at the moment their utility with MF Nikkors is no better than Sony or Canon).

Edited December 12, 2018 by orsetto

The entire misbegotten Df saga

I disagree with virtually everything you say about the camera. Cameras smaller than the DF are a PITA to use, and I don't even have large hands. Ugly - what compared to black plastic blobs? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The DF fits nicely with my older film Nikons. Physical controls badly implemented? Not to anyone who has used one for a while. Have you owned one? I'd bet not.

You missed the part where I essentially said "those that love it, love it with reason". If it works for you, great: no criticism or judgment from me. Hell, I still mostly use a creaky D700 for similar reasons of personal operating preferences (despite the aged sensor). Yes, I've used a Df: one of my friends owns and loves hers, and we sometimes go on outings together. It is an interesting camera, just not remotely the camera that was teased. Those who primarily wanted a single-shot body for the best compact AIS lenses like 20mm f/3.5 or 2.8, 28mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.4, 85mm f/2, and 105mm f/2.5 wanted something more compact. Users like yourself who also shoot AF in continuous mode would of course want something a bit larger. The Df is "ugly" compared to the target FM/FE, compared to a D600 or Pentax DSLR you have a point. The physical controls irritate a significant percentage of users no end with their counterintuitive locking and other integration aspects: again, if you tend to use it more as an AF camera you will not care as much (you'll just chalk it up to the learning curve of your latest AF body).

 

The fact that many were disappointed by the Df does not in the least invalidate those who find it suits them very well, just as the fact that many find it marvelous does not in the least make those who dislike the Df feel any better about it. The Df is a very subjective, love-it-or-hate-it camera. That Nikon even considered refreshing it as their anniversary showpiece indicates it has an influential following. But just like the classic Alpa 35mm SLRs, the quirks that some embrace are as fiercely rejected by others.

 

Agree, using AIS Nikkors adapted to mirrorless isn't ideal, but this is why the elusive "Digital FE2" is still a cherished dream for some Nikon enthusiasts. For us, the Df doesn't quite fit the bill: that doesn't mean we grudge other people enjoying it. The more "niche" cameras Nikon can sell, the better for everyone.

Edited December 12, 2018 by orsetto

Yes, I've used a Df:

Used & owned quite different. We are on different sides of the issue - no problem.

Also keep in mind that Nikon introduced the Df in late 2013. Therefore its design was probably around 2011 to 2013, maybe starting from 2010. Those were the heydays of DSLRs when they were selling like hot cakes, people were upgrading every year or two, and Nikon was making plenty of money. 5 years later, digital cameras have reached a plateau. Technologies are not improving that much and existing cameras are mostly good enough so that there is no need to upgrade frequently, and mobile phone cameras are taking over the low-end market. The camera market is shrinking.

 

Meanwhile Nikon has suffered a number of notable set backs: the Nikon 1 series mirrorless with 1" sensors failed, the entire DL line was still born and the Key Mission cameras are not doing well. The time for another niche product that may easily lose money has lost passed.