ray . Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 No doubt, digital users, as good photogs, ideally, those who haven't- should try shooting some film and get to the point where they can make a good silver print. Those hanging on to film should get some experience with a DSLR and find out what can be done in photoshop. Might make attitudes a little less dogmatic, at any rate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_kennedy1 Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 peace, love and understanding make for horribly dull internet, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_shively Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Why? Digital shooters would probably hate the process, epecially if they do the darkroom work themselves. Film shooters would need to spend a fortune for the equipment, materials, software and updated computer. Whatever floats your boat's okay by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_couvillion Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 I'm still working on learning to shoot and print film. I've been doing it over thirty years and it's still a challenge to me. When I feel I know everything about shooting and printing film, and reach a point of perfection such that it's no longer challenging or interesting, then I might move on to digital... but don't hold your breath on that because it probably won't happen in my lifetime. ;>) Seriously, who has the time or can afford the investment in money to do what you suggest? Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 Lots of people express very strong opinions around here... Getting down in the trenches with both would lend more legitimacy to whatever your viewpoint is. If you're not willing or able to then maybe you should temper your comments accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce_rubenstein Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 At this time most people shooting digital started with film. Why do they have to print? As HCB said regarding darkroom work: "I am a hunter, not a cook". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 Dennis, the investment isn't prohibitive..... this is the Leica forum. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray . Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 I'm not talking HCB, most people don't have the luxury of hiring a top notch printer. There's nothing like doing this stuff yourself to know what's possible with the technology. If you're going to lack knowledge in some areas of the medium, at least admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael s. Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 I don't think Ray's contending that people need to *own* a bunch of new gear. In many cases, friends have dslr's. Take back all the !!*&^GU%$!! terrible things you've said to your dslr-owning buddy, and spend an hour or two with him/her and the camera. Snap some shots, then go back to the house and put a few on screen and watch what happens. Same thing, in reverse, for those who've never really held/shot a film camera (or a rangefinder in particular), or if time permits, consider a darkroom visit. Neither will become expert in what the other does, but you might have some fun. Of course, one of my strongest positions in an argument might go right out the window: "Now don't confuse me with the facts ..." -:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johns1 Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Then there's the nettlesome problem of helping digital shooters spell the word F-I-L-M. Patience . . . patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david j.lee Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 maybe people who enjoy film, should shoot film, and people who enjoy digital,should shoot digital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Reality once more struck at 10 AM today. I stopped by my friend Mike's portrait and wedding studio. He made another attempt to comvince me to buy his "old" DSLR "and I can send a LOT of work your way!" No offer of a cup of coffee like the old days. Worse, no suggestion to go down the block to get our coffee at the neighborhood donut shop. Nope. He was too busy squinting at the screen, tapping the keyboard, moving the mouse, extolling the virtues of... Then he got up to get some papers from his office (the computer stuff is in the camera room) and he couldn't straighten out his back. He hobbled out of the studio holding his back, hunched forward, knees still bent, a pained look on his face. Too many hours on an ill fitting too tall stool, bent over the keyboard, and he's the first to admit it! But he loves what he can do with photoshop. He loves that prints spit out dry from the printer, cropped just so, and RIGHT NOW! He's been the film route. He has a complete wet 1-Hour lab in house and another machine for wet printing 20x30 posters. He just loves playing on the computer. There's no getting away from that fact. The fortune in hardware and software? Not a consideration. How can you argue with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_couvillion Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Ray: I don't have to worry about working for a news agency or some other photographic enterprise where digital is mandatory; there is no compelling reason for me to learn digital. So the question I have to ask myself is whether digital will make me a better photographer? Here, we are rather often reminded by some that it's not the equipment that matters, it's the photographer. And I agree... although I think I now understand the concept sufficiently and don't need to be reminded anymore. There are some on PN who think my pictures are "boring", "cliched" and, basically, "suck". Wouldn't my time therefore be better spent learning to be a better photographer rather than learning digital? If I follow the prevailing argument on PN then different equipment won't make me a better photographer. Digital is ubiquitous... even I've played around with other people's digital cameras. I've seen enough of it to appreciate what they like about digital... and what needs of theirs digital may better serve. But, for me, I see no reason to learn digital. Ray, at one time you were a prolific and enthusiastic Leica shooter. Did you go digital? Did it make you a better photographer? Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben z Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Ray, the only people I know who shoot digital and have never shot film are rank newbies. After all, digital has only gotten good and affordable in the last few years. The people blasting film and extoling the superiority of digital seem to all be former film shooters. I've shot digital (20D). Being able to shoot color indoors at ISO 1600 without speed-robbing filtration, and then to get much less "noise" than ISO 1600 film's got grain, and to get the effect of a 1.6 teleconverter with no loss lens speed or image quality were great features. Someday I may shoot completely digital, but right now I'm in no hurry. As long as film is available I can wait and watch as digital technology evolves further and prices on equipment drops (well, other than Leica who raise their prices even when facing bankruptcy). Nobody's going to refuse to sell me a digital camera in 2010 just because I didn't jump on the bandwagon in 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 : "I am a hunter, not a cook". Hmm,lets it it raw then. Or, maybe extra well done. Sorry H best to go from start to finish. Hope your listening up there..hey, what's it like....can you talk.....or is it not allowed by the great moderater up there in the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akochanowski Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 well, I can't read Ray's mind, but I think he was gently suggesting that a fair amount of advice gets handed out in this forum from people who are proud of their ignorance of much technology that has evolved in the past 50 years or so. I think he was suggesting that rather than dishing out opinions based on little more than stale prejudice, forum participants actually spend a few hours doing something other than sucking their collective thumbs. At least that's how I read it, though I certainly could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert goldstein Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Any film shooter can get a very good taste of the digital world by scanning the film and editing it in Photoshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sliu Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 I do digital photography with a $10 50 year-old-TLR and a $450 brand new Epson 4990 scanner. I also make silver prints but that is just for fun. Serious work is displayed in digital only.<div></div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsr Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 After a lifetime of film, I've spent five years in digital, and I prefer film. It's much more intuitive to me, and the learning curve is easier than the software required to post process digital images. Digital produces a fast image, but post processing takes all the fun out of it. The jargon connected with digital software and computers in general is just too much for me to bear. Buggy programs don't help one bit, either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiswick_john Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 I'm a 'shooter' and my tools are sometimes film and sometimes digital. I don't realy think any differently about the subject I'm pointing my 'tool' at when working with either. Scanned film or RAW digital files get roughly the same treatment in Photoshop and after spending yers in the darkroom I don't miss it at all. A traditional darkroom background of messing about with enlargers and trays of chemicals won't IMO give you any advantage over someone who has sat down and learnt Photoshop properly and it certainly won't change the way you look at or photograph your subjects or environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank granovski Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Re: "Should digital users try film, and... vice versa?" Sure, why not? I did. Trying to figure out a digicam so I can shoot is like trying to program my newest TV so I can watch. No thanks. Too complicated---and by the time I figure it out there'll be 3 replacements of a new and improved model and broadcast TV will have gone to HD, but with a price. Let's leave digital to the children. They are the future, afterall. That's what I think. ;*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank granovski Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 How? He watched the American election 4&1/2 years ago. ;*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_kaplan1 Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Amarican elections are NOT stolen! They're bought and paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank granovski Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Ahhh..., right. I forgot. You are correct of course, Al. Now back to a little spin and spankin' the baby. ;*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 Maybe those who can make a good silver print should have a serious attempt to learn digital rather than just coming out with the same old nonsense about how rubbish/time consuming/complicated/doughnut depriving/back aching it all is. "Let's leave digital to the children" yeh Frank digital is sooo new. I have been in IT since 1979 and I know people who have made a lifetimes career of computers/digital electronics since they were at college and they are now retired men in their 60s! Digital music (not just CD) is 1970s technology despite the fact that it has only been in the shops for 23 years it has been around in the studio longer than that. Digital SLRs celebrate their 15th year this year. Can we forget this idea that digital is some cheap 'here today gone tomorrow' plastic novelty item that the world will get tired of. What I get get tired of is people whingeing about all this so called 'new fangled' technology! (Technology that was actually around when Al Kaplan was a teenager.) In those days only the 'high priests' of computing working for governments, universities and the military and large companies were allowed to (or could afford to) use this technology because it was so expensive. Over the last 30 years hundreds of thousands of very clever people and some very enterprising companies have dragged the computer from the clutches of the 'establishment' and stuck it in your living rooms and it only costs a few hundred dollars. Yet you still whine. The same people have moved mountains to make it simple for you to use with swishy pictures and kindergarten pointy clickey operating systems. Yet you still whine. (Try a few real old fashioned operating system like MVS/XA or JES2 or VM or OS-400 or VTAM or CICS if you think your PC is complicated.) So the worlds biggest companies and finest technologists and scientists and nobel prize winners have bust their b*lls to democratise computing and enable you and I to perform what were dreams & miracles 50 years ago for a few hundred dollars and you say "it is a childs toy" or a 'gimmick' or the pointy clickey pictures are too complicated. Boo hoo. And now someone is seriously suggesting that I have to qualify to use a digital camera by making my own silver based prints first. WHAT!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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