Sharp Aquos Yellow(Y) color for RGB LCD television ?

<p>I wonder if owners of Sharp Aquos new color television display system, (QUAD COLOR), technology could share experiences.<br>

<br />While Red-Green-Blue (RGB) TVs were perfected over a number of years, complemented by software makers that use RGB modes, addition of 4th color filter, YELLOW, provides Red-Green-Blue-Yellow (RGBY) technology, that is suppose to provide better color rendition and TV quality.<br>

<br />While I was impressed with the quality of the Sharp 4 color TV, I am not sure if I would notice any difference, if I did not know about the 4th color that I was looking at, (power of suggestion?).<br>

<br />Do you think addition of the 4th Yellow color, to the existing RGB system provides substancial image quality improvement ?</p>

<p>What does this have to do with digital darkroom? Photography? or anything else in this site?</p>

<p>LCD monitors are used for display of computer images, as well as HDMI output from latest top DSLR cameras.<br />There are multi use LCD TVs, and LCD monitors, utilizing the same technology.</p>

<p>Current software for digital darkroom utilizes RGB, and perhaps not ready yet for RGBY. <br>

Sharp may be one step ahead of software vendors for digital darkroom processing.<br>

Adobe and others could possibly need to catch up and make available software to process the RBGY as well.<br>

<br />I hope this information helped you.</p>

<p>HAve you ever edited photo's on LCD TV's? And you calibrate it with....? I think they only calibrate in RGB. When monitors start usinf RGBY then the software co. will follow. When you connect the computer to the TV, yur only as strong as the computer program. A chain is only as strong a it's weakest link. I understand what you're saying, but, software companies are not going to update their software for a TV manufacturer. When most monitors start using that technology then they will change. Two years? five years?</p>

<p>I use NEC LCD monitor and calibration software that is appropriate for RGB for photo and video processing.<br>

Perhaps you are right that 2 to 5 years is the time frame to see any benefits for photo processing, if the 4 color technology catches up?</p>

<p>The yellow seems like a marketing ploy as yellow is already produced by RGB. That said I'm sure it's a fine TV.</p>

<p>The yellow pixel is there to produce more accurate colors correct? Does it even matter if the signal is RGB, not RGBY?</p>

<p>I believe the signal is RBG, since there are no devices that would produce RGBY yet? </p>

<p>The extra color filter perhaps is for the display only, and there must be some intelligent processing to use Yellow, in addition to RGB. This could possibly enhance colors in bettter rendering Yellow color.</p>

<p>Since human eyes do not receive all colors the same way or sensitivity, some DSLR use color mask filter over sensor that provides more space for color that is less received by human eye. (like green ?).</p>

<p>In similar spirit, perhaps Sharp must have done some research and determined that addition of Yellow color, in addition what RGB produces, will increase the overall color quality of their LCD technology.</p>

<p>Since RGBY LCD TVs from Sharp Aquos series are being sold for a higher price, perhaps there must be a good reason for this. </p>

<p>I have a LED sharp aquos tv. Should I be showing my finished images in sRGB or adobeRGB, does it make any difference?<br>

Thanks.<br>

I think this topic pertains to digital darkroom as it is viewing the finished digital image.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Peter.</p>

<p>It's weird, but I am totally on Frank's side this time. I'll just grab one or two random misconceptions as talking points, and babble a little, too...</p>

<blockquote>

<p>The yellow seems like a marketing ploy as yellow is already produced by RGB. That said I'm sure it's a fine TV.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>The sharp TV is just the first application of their wide gamut system. They also have a five (yes, five) color system in the works for computer monitors. You cannot "produce" some shades of yellow from red, green, and blue, no matter how "pure" that red, green, and blue are. The eye sees in what, mathematically, can be treated as red, green, and blue, and the CIE has a "color coordinate" system called "XYZ" that spans every color the eye can see, based on red, green, and blue numbers. But because the eye's sensitivities to the three colors overlap, to get from red, green, and blue lights to "eye colors" requires the use of negative numbers. So, the only way to get a certain level of saturation in yellow is to hit the eye with positive (normal) amounts) of red and green, and some negative number of blue anti-light. Since we've not figured out how to do this yet...<br>

You've probably all seen this diagram before. It's called the CIE "Chromaticity" diagram, and represents all the colors the eye can see. The colors around the edge of the tongue shaped diagram are spectrally pure: they're monochromatic like lasers, or, to some extent, like LEDs.<br>

The triangular region inside the diagram represents the colors that can be displayed by combining three colored light sources that are not pure, laser-like monochromatic lights. Those three colors represent the phosphors of an inexpensive color CRT, like a old fashioned color television, or a basic computer monitor. That monitor can only produce colors that are inside the triangle bounded by the colors of its three light sources. LCD monitors are the same way, you can put the three filtered light colors on the chromaticity diagram, and the area inside the triangle that they make is the "gamut" of that monitor.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>OK, once again, a chromaticity diagram, with an sRGB (cheap monitor) gamut</p><div></div>

<p>And now it's across a page break. That 10 post limit is a wonderful idea. Yeah, it really is...</p>

<p>OK, back to the matter at hand.</p>

<p>So called "wide gamut" monitors use better light sources and better filters in the LCD, to make their colors more monochromatic, and therefore, the triangle's vertexes are closer to the perimeter of the tongue. But even if the light sources and filters are perfect, laser-like monochromatic, the triangle's points only move to the edges of the tongue, and no farther. There's always space outside the tongue that the eye can see, but the monitor can't produce.</p>

<p>Here's another chromaticity diagram, where I've added a near perfect "wide gamut" three color triangle. It's a great wide gamut, it almost touches the perimeter of the tongue in red, green, and blue. But still, about 40% of the tongue's area isn't covered.</p><div></div>

<p>Who needs super saturated yellows? </p>

<p>If the source file isn't also wide gamut why would anyone want a wider gamut TV? Is there proper color management of video yet to ensure a source file (DVD, HD TV, etc.) is properly displayed on output devices of various gamuts? If not this seems like it's not ready for prime time.</p>

<p>Now, imagine that we took that monitor and added a fourth color, in the yellow. The shape isn't a triangle anymore, it's a quadrilateral, and we pick up all the missing colors in the yellow. For a TV, that means we've now got much better skin tones, we can make every possible human skin and hair color. That's the new Sharp TV.</p><div></div>

<p>And suppose we throw one more color into the mix, on the blue/green side of the tongue. No, not "cyan", that's a mix of blue and green that appears on the edge of the triangle connecting blue to green. A real aqua, on the left edge of the tongue. Now, the pentalateral (is that the right word? Is it a word at all). That's the coming 5 color computer monitor. The input is still "RGB numbers", they just get mapped to a wider shape.</p><div></div>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Who needs super saturated yellows?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Who said "super saturated". We're just talking yellow enough to cover the human skin gamut, which existing TV's don't really manage.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If the source file isn't also wide gamut why would anyone want a wider gamut TV? Is there proper color management of video yet to ensure a source file (DVD, HD TV, etc.) is properly displayed on output devices of various gamuts? If not this seems like it's not ready for prime time.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>TVs have some of the most interesting color management of any display devices. Good ones actually perform some "color recognition" determining if the colors they're displaying are close to what we call "memory colors", the colors that humans instinctively recognize (blue skies, skin, healthy grass) and figure out what the shape of the correct gamut, as opposed to the gamut on the media is, and try to fix it.</p>

<p>It's no less "ready for prime time" than the existing triangular systems.</p>

 

<p>Following this discussion with interest, as I would like to know the proper way to preare a file to burn to cd or dvd and display on tv.<br>

What colour space should it be in? (srgb, prophoto, ntsc, ...)<br>

Should that profile be embedded in the file?<br>

Does it depend on the tv? or on the player? What about blueray?</p>

<p>This is one of those subjects that once you start thinking too much about it, your brain starts to hurt.<br>

As far as I'm concerned, I take the simple view. If my camera can only record a colour as an RGB number in an RGB colour space triangle, then there's no point in the monitor (or printer for that matter) being capable of producing colours outside that space, real or interpolated, as they will be 'artificial'.. That may mean to some people they look 'better' but to me, not real.</p>

Joseph, that's a great series of posts. Thank you.

<p>"TVs have some of the most interesting color management of any display devices. Good ones actually perform some "color recognition" determining if the colors they're displaying are close to what we call "memory colors", the colors that humans instinctively recognize (blue skies, skin, healthy grass) and figure out what the shape of the correct gamut, as opposed to the gamut on the media is, and try to fix it."<br>

<br />Will a well-mastered DVD deliver colors to the TV that would give more realistic or attractive skin tones on a wider gamut TV than a standard one? On a computer the answer is no as the operating system/DVD software is not expecting such a display and does not use the display profile. I just got a NEC P221W and this is quite noticable/annoying.<br>

<br />You mention "good ones" have interesting color management. How about ordinary TVs? I've seen what the colors look like of displays in various stores? Many of them verge on garish (as did my own Sony on reds until I adjusted it). Are there auto-adjustments to compensate for the degradation of the tube over time?</p>

<p>Thanks for such an interesting response Joseph! Interesting reading what appears to be <a href="http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090135213">Sharps patent application</a> for a RGBYeC (and theoretically M) LCD.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>If my camera can only record a colour as an RGB number in an RGB colour space triangle, then there's no point in the monitor (or printer for that matter) being capable of producing colours outside that space, real or interpolated, as they will be 'artificial'..</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Chris, it's the other way around. "Light sensing devices" with three filters, like your eye or a decent camera, see all the colors in the "tongue". The triangles represent colors that "light producing devices" can produce. So, every color outside the triangle, but still inside the tongue, represents a color that you (and your camera) can see, but your monitor can't display. The purpose of the four or more color displays is to make the display more "tongue like", capable of presenting you with more of what you originally saw in the scene.</p>

<p>I'll believe it when I see it. Until then I believe this guy: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/display_myths_shattered?page=0,4</p>

<p>Thanks Andrew, there are some informative comments in that thread as well.</p>

<p>Joe, I'm surprised that human skin tones are outside sRGB. Many people (myself included) have sent sRGB portraits to labs for years and I edited them on a SRGB-ish CRT. Couldn't I verify whether an image actually needs a wider gamut than sRGB by opening it in Photoshop in a wider color space (like ProPhoto) and then softproofing to sRGB or my old monitor profile and checking the gamut warning? Unless I'm missing something I'll give that a try.</p>

<p>One of the responses to the other article from Raymond Soneira of Displaymate.<br>

<br />"Submitted by <a title="View user profile." href="http://www.maximumpc.com/user/raymondsoneira">RaymondSoneira</a> on <em>Mon, 05/24/2010 - 2:57pm</em><br>

"as I pointed out in the article all consumer television, DVD and Blu-ray content is being produced and color balanced on 3-color displays calibrated to the 3-color sRGB/Rec.709 standard. The very saturated yellow content that lies outside of that standard color space cannot later be reinserted by a Quattron HDTV at home because all of that chromaticity information has been permanently lost and there is no way to recover it. So all that the Quattron can do involves stretching the yellow portion of the sRGB/Rec.709 color space, which may look good sometimes, like for bananas, daisies and whatever else Sharp is showing in their demos, but most of the time the yellow stretch will make things appear more yellow than they should. So, if you want to see artificially exaggerated yellows then get the Quattron, but if you want to see the same accurate color that was produced and carefully color balanced at the studios where the content was created then don't buy a Sharp Quattron but rather an HDTV with a standard 3-color display."</p>