Senate Defeats Effort To Open The Arctic Refuge To Oil Drilling

Discussion in 'Large Format' started by edela_rothman, Apr 18, 2002.

  1. FYI.

    <p>

    For those who have helped in this effort, keep up the good work!
     
  2. For those you contributed to this effort.....you're out of your mind!
    Check the local gas prices. Ready to buy a Vespa,with snow tires, or
    get on your 12-speed bike? I am presently doing a major portfolio on
    urban sprawl...I hate it. For those who have supported this blockage
    of drilling on 1% of the ANWAR...you're nuts....but Sadam loves you!
    Remember this nonsense when the middle east blows up and the oil flow
    stops. Geeezzze!
     
  3. Seems like much of the problem is urban sprawl -- that and lack
    of good public transportation in these sprawling urban cancers.
    (you think Denver is bad? have you ben to Houston lately? Or
    Atlanta?
     
  4. Whatever your take on this, one can hardly deny the fact that
    640,000 acres is hardly a negligable impact by any scale. Yes, I
    know the Gov. only quoted 2,000 acres affected, but they didn't
    bother to count roads that would be built, and most land cleared.
    Apparently, it only counts if there's a concrete directly on top of it,
    hence the misleading figure. Gas prices suck, (as does urban
    sprawl, for that matter) no doubt about it, but I do believe there
    are better ways to work our way to a better situation than
    screwing up some of the last pristine wilderness for a finite
    amount of fossil fuel.
    <p>
    Besides, this is a photography forum, not a political debate...
     
  5. If you think gas prices are bad here, take a trip to Iceland
    sometime. Gas there hovers around $4-5 a gallon after currency and
    metric/english conversions. I believe the rest of Europe has much
    higher gas prices than here, as well.
     
  6. "Land cleared"? There's NOTHING there to be cleared. Those pretty
    pics shown by Greenpeace are NOT of the area where drilling will take
    place. And, in case you haven't noticed lately, neither the wildlife
    nor environment have suffered because of the North Slope activities.
    This is no difference. You may want to be dependent on Sadam, or
    those nuts in Venezuela, but I want some alternatives. And I DON'T
    want to go back to bicycles. 640,000 acres. What kind of nut came
    up with that figure - Tom "Puff" Daschile?

    <p>

    Yes, this is a photo forum. But, you don't make such unsubstantiated
    statements, THEN try and cut off debate. Too late, buster!
     
  7. Those of us who contributed to this are not out of our minds. I
    filled up yesterday at $1.63/gal. here in Los Angeles. My vehicle
    achieves 35-37 mpg, and I believe that we'd all be better off were
    unleaded regular priced nearer $5.00/gal. That would put a large
    dent in urban sprawl and reduce the number of single-occupant 6,000
    lb. SUVs (Stupid Useless Vehicles) that clog our freeways and fill
    the air with smog.

    <p>

    By the way, anyone who thinks drilling in ANWR would have a positive
    effect on anything is mistaken. An honest root cause analysis shows
    that urban sprawl, high gasoline prices and smog are all traceable to
    too much population. Until that is addressed, all "supply-
    increasing" actions will be outrun and futile.
     
  8. Quoting Russ Limbaugh or (equally brain dead but from the
    other side of the political spectrum) Amy Goodman always adds
    more heat than light to any conversation.<P>And exactly who
    tried to "cut off debate", Alec?
     
  9. While this is a photographic forum that should be devoid of this
    political rhetoric, there are several important points that I feel
    need to be made parallel on this subject of interest to the landscape
    photographer. 1) After trying for 20 years, WE STILL DO NOT HAVE AN
    ENERGY POLICY. Without it and the intelligent diversification to
    phase in alternative fuels and other forms of clean burning energy,
    we will continue to be held hostage by the Middle East. 2)
    Irrespective of your political persuasion, the economy is driven by
    energy consumption in the industrial and private sector. 3) We have
    as a nation been continuing to restrict use of fuel oil and encourage
    the use of natural gas that is vastly less polluting. 4) In a free
    economy, you cannot legislate or by any other means force a consumer
    to spend less of their disposable income on huge SUV's that get
    horrific miles per gallon. Inefficiency is what eventually illicits
    engineering or design improvements. Because of cheap energy, Detroit
    gave us what we wanted. Gas guzzling civilian tanks that places the
    priority on horsepower and speed versus fuel eficiency. From my
    perspective, the only way that the big auto makers will change course
    and get back to valuing the utilization of energy is when American
    consumers have to reach into their wallet for a "C" note for a tank
    of gas. And it will be here sooner than you think. As far as Alaska
    goes, I wish I could find all of the loonies that said the world
    would end when the Trans Alaska Pipeline went into service in the
    late 1970's. How the Caribou would cease to exist and it would create
    an environmental fiasco the likes of which civilized man had never
    seen. Well guess what, the caribou herds are the largest we have ever
    seen. The only spill recorded was from a mentally deranged person
    that shot the pipeline with his rifle. Fortunately, it was
    immediately located and cleaned up. Whenever I find a person that
    spouts this type of rhetoric, I ask them if they would put their
    money where their mouth is - Would they refrain from all forms of
    hydrocarbon energy indefinately to start to curb our insatiable
    appetite for oil (no auto, plane or bus travel)? The answer is always
    a resounding NO because it is our standard of living. We would rather
    ignore the situation than face the music.

    <p>

    Regarding natural resources, it is always good sense to intelligently
    exploit these in a balanced mode considering the environment.
    Ironically, the native Alaskans are a majority in favor of
    exloitation that unfortunately, will not happen for some time to
    come. Look at the bright side. Prior to 1974 and the oil embargo,
    thermal pane windows and pink insulation were not very popular.
    Shortly thereafter, they spawned entire corporations in fever pitch
    to conserve energy. We are about primed to go into another cycle of
    conservation as the good old USA continues to escalate our dependence
    upon foreign oil.
     
  10. I apologize if my position seems off the wall. I made reference to
    that figure because it came up several times in some research I
    recently did. If it's wrong, so be it, I apologize. I don't want to be
    dependent on anyone, Saddam included, but I also don't want to
    see delicate ecosystems put at the potential of risk so my
    neighbor can afford to drive his SUV a little cheaper. My point
    was just that there are better ways to solve dependence on
    foreign oil and the energy crisis in general than drilling in the
    ANWR. That's all- I don't want a debate.
     
  11. Glad you recognize [and appreciate] intelligent advocacy, Ellis.
    Surely you're not one of the urban nuts who thinks we ought to all
    move BACK into the cities, are you? Man, I couldn't target practice
    off my deck if that happened. Then, again, maybe I could!

    <p>

    I was responding to David, who made his statement then tried to
    change the subject.
     
  12. Personally, I would *love* my SUV to run on hydrogen. Hydrogen fuel
    is a wonderful alternative to gasoline. Yeah, hydrogen bleeds out,
    but you just fill it back up again. A full tank would bleed out in a
    week or so. Most people use their vehicles more frequently than that.

    <p>

    Thus, no more oil drilling, the "energy" companies stay in business
    producing truly clean energy, and everybody goes home happy. Except
    Sadam....
     
  13. OH PULLUEEZZZ!!

    <p>

    ok, for all the "anti-oil, there is a huge global (republican)
    conspriacy to destroy all things natural and good" photographers:

    <p>

    1) film is made from plastic
    2) plastic is made from oil

    <p>

    therefore: shooting sheet film means you must be a selfish, oil
    consuming bigot who can't wait to invade Iraq and hates all creatures!

    <p>

    BECAUSE: if you were not an oil consuming bigot who hated nature, you
    would assuredly be using a digital camera, which uses 1% of the
    petroleum product compared with sheet film. Not to mention all the
    awfull chemicals one needs to develop said film.

    <p>

    can we PLEASE not have this debate on this forum???? pretty please?
     
  14. I is always funny how many of the people who demonize oil and SUVs,
    are still driving vehicles with internal combustion engines. If you
    really feel that strongly about oil and the environment, why are you
    driving at all? Surely if you gave up your car it would help end
    sprawl and the crowded freeways and help the ozone layer. Think about
    it, the money that you save from not buying $5.00 a gallon gas could
    be better spent on getting yourself some much needed therapy.
     
  15. There are just too many people packed together in the big cities,
    and what bothers me the most about living in a big city is that in
    some of the neighborhoods I've lived in, you can go weeks, months,
    even years without seeing your neighbors.

    <p>

    Neighborhoods in the big city are becoming less than
    neighborhoods and seem more like parking lots these days. Gangs,
    drugs, violence, urban blight, carjacking, we all know about these
    problems, the thing that saddens me the most that I see everywhere are
    the endless numbers of kids going arund aimlessly who don't seem like
    they're being raised by anybody.

    <p>

    I'm sensitive to this obviously since I have a 4yr old son, and
    6yr old daughter, and I see teenagers to 5yr olds coming and going
    with nobody to look after them. I've seen this in poor neighborhoods
    and in affluent areas, to me it doesn't make any difference where the
    parents are, the big city is no place for kids in any neighborhood to
    be wandering around alone.

    <p>

    We need to do something about this issue and the other issues
    that have been raised so that we can hand over a better legacy to our
    kids.
     
  16. For starters, They are only talking about maybe 2% of the oil we need
    coming out of that area. Second oil is priced on the world market so
    prices most likely would not be that affected and lastly I'd be more
    than happy to pay more for gas if it meant saving the one state we
    have left that's still in pretty much a wild state. I feel I owe it
    to my children and there children.
     
  17. Is it a bit hot in here tonight or is it just me???
     
  18. Lively debate.

    <p>

    Could I challenge you to bring your LFs up to the area? I think you
    might enjoy the photo experience, Spring, Summer, Fall or Winter.
    Visit both ends of the cultural debate on this issue (Arctic Village
    versus Kaktovik) and chronicle your cultural and environmental
    adventures. You could drop a few bucks into their economy and get a
    realistic view of the issues. You would afford credence to you
    viewpoint (either side) by being able to say, "I been there!" "I seen
    ‘em!"

    Bring your experiences home and champion your cause through
    photographic lectures or a fine art show. You are an LF photographer.
    Make a difference!

    <p>

    Or...stay where you're at and philosophize on how many angels can
    dance on the head of a pin, having knowledge of neither.

    <p>

    You find will one thing that Alaskan's do have in common is we are, at
    once, both amused and unamused by the views of Outsiders who think our
    lives are just like theirs. We enjoy educating them by showing them
    our state.

    <p>

    Now...are we back on the LF track?
     
  19. I hate arguing politics, especially here - but you started it.<BR>
    <BR>
    For a country boy (by that I do not mean just "not in the city", as
    in - midwest agribusiness, no land NOT plowed, "country" - )
    I also grew up, and have spent a large part of my adult life in
    fairly remote areas of the west (the places you come to on vacation
    from whatever mega-lopolis...). In my 50 years I have seen first-hand
    the damage (and waste) caused by development and commercialization.
    <BR>
    I have also heard all the arguments against industrial development
    of "sensitive areas". and I do not disagree with most of those
    arguments. <BR>
    BUT - (you knew there was going to be a BUT.. didn't you!) -<BR>
    <BR>
    More damage is done in one summer by tourists, photogs, hikers,
    bikers, et al. - to the wilderness areas of the mountain west than
    could be done in the ANWL in a decade. (and don't even get me started
    on snow mobiles, ski resorts, etc.,etc.)<BR>
    The wilderness and high country areas of the lower 48 hold an
    immensely more diverse (and in sheer numbers of wildlife and foliage,
    exponentially greater), varied and fragile biosystem than you will
    find on the tundra! <BR>
    Yet, how many of you do those things every year? <BR>
    Do the posters in L.A., think about the Colorado River when they turn
    on that lawn sprinkler? (or why the City of L.A. really needs to
    pressure Congress to divert even more water - from the Columbia
    River, 1800 miles away?)Do they think about the death of the Salmon
    Runs on the Columbia when they order that grilled Salmon at Upscale
    Restaurant-of-the-day?<BR>
    Do they think about the damage to the environment, air and water
    pollution, done every day by their city - by its very existence?
    Do you in NY, Boston, Houston, Denver? <BR>
    No, because its too close to home. We can't come to grips with the
    fact that we are part of the problem. We poison our backyards, yet
    scream when someone wants to extract oil from a remote (and in terms
    of bio-culture - a desert) area. <BR>
    When I worked in New England, there were mass-protests against a
    power plant being built in NH. Bostonians (who's demand for ever-
    increasing power production was the reason for the plant construction
    in the first place)formed an army of protesters - key among them,
    Jane Fonda - called the Clam Shell Alliance. Not many from N.H. -<BR>
    The locals produced posters and bumper-stickers with a statement that
    pretty much sums up my feelings about the ANWL issue -<BR>
    "Let the Bastards freeze in the dark!"
     
  20. Thank goodness. Keep up the good work, Senate.

    <p>

    As to our long term strategic benefit with respect to energy, if there
    is oil in the area, it would behoove us to leave it there until such
    time as it might really be needed.
     
  21. If you're a country boy then maybe you can answer a question I've
    always been meaning to ask somebody. If someone finally decides to
    leave the big city, where do you go?

    <p>

    I've been to a few place out of the country, but I mean here in the
    states, is there a place to go to where they're not doing the things
    they do in the big city? Do those kinds of places really/still exist?

    <p>

    I'm a city boy so I'd like to know, if one ever decides to leave
    the big city, where do you go where they don't have some degree of the
    problems you've mentioned? I don't mean living like a 'mountain man',
    I mean a community, where you can raise your kids, and give them an
    education.
     
  22. Sal said: "I believe that we'd all be better off were unleaded
    regular priced nearer $5.00/gal"

    <p>

    Hey Sal. You've got to be the posterboy for "Driving a Yugo"!!!!!

    <p>

    Why, I bet you even wish your TAXES were higher too, right?
     
  23. Johnathan,<BR>
    Check yer email.
     
  24. I don't know if this is really the right forum for this discussion,
    but I'm going to chime in anyway.<br><br>

    I live in Maryland and work in DC. Gasoline here ranges from around
    $1.60 to just under $2.00 per gallon. I usally buy in Maryland,
    where the tax on gasoline is one of the highest in the nation.
    Unfortunately I drive 65 miles one-way to my job, so I shell out
    around $50/week to keep gas in my Honda. I'm not complaining; just
    telling you where I'm coming from.<br><br>

    Oh, and I'm a moderate, so...<br><br>

    First to all you unltra-right-wing types, get off it. You are being
    manipulated by the oil companies, who are trying to convince you that
    we NEED to drill. Have you ever asked yourself why they feel we NEED
    to drill? Do you really believe that they have the country's best
    interest in mind? Has it ever occurred to any of you that the name
    of the game is PROFIT? Now, I'm not some anti-capitalist, but I do
    recognize that oil companies have NEVER had my best interest in mind
    when striking out on a new venture.<br><br>

    I would also say to those of you who are only regurgitating what
    you've read/seen/heard in the press to gather more information about
    the subject. Yes, it's ONLY 2000 out of millions of acres, but the
    significance of those 2000 acres is much greater than the Limbaugh's
    and Liddy's of the world would have you believe. First, those 2000
    acres need not be contiguous. In fact, when totaling the area taken
    by a pipeline, only the ACTUAL FOOTPRINT of the pipeline need be
    considered, so if it is perched upon "legs" with "feet" of only a
    square foot or two, one could have miles and miles of pipeline and
    still could count it as only an acre of land. Obviously the impact
    would be much greater than that acre. Second, the 2000 acres
    referenced make up the entire western shoreline of the reserve,
    approximately 25 miles in length.<br><br>

    Now for all the left-wing, bleeding hearts out there: Didn't we hear
    this same argument vis a vis drilling for oil and natural gas in the
    Gulf of Mexico? And has anyone given any thought to what the
    alternative to drilling in ANWAR would/will be? Will there now be
    more wells in the Southwest? Or in the gulf? Did you know that the
    BLM has already allowed exploration to begin right outside Arches
    National Park? I know, I know, that's a lot of questions, but one
    has to ask whether it's smarter to move drilling to areas in the
    lower 48 that are MUCH MORE HIGHLY utilized in favor of "saving" an
    area that's rarely even seen by human eyes. I would also advise you
    to gather more information than just what's provided by Greenpeace,
    the Sierra Club and the Nature Conservancy. While I agree that these
    organizations have a purpose, I would also say that if we had
    listened to them in the mid-50s, much of the southwestern US would
    not have water right now. Sometimes sacrifice is required in the
    name of progress.<br><br>

    The success of the Senate is not and should not be measured by
    whether or not a proposal is passed or defeated; its success is
    measured by the fact that there is debate at all.
     
  25. "Sometimes sacrifice is required in the name of progress." - Please define 'progress'.
    Is having more consumer goods than you have time to use progress?
    Is being able to get clinically obese on cheap junk food progress?
    Is driving everywhere and then having to use your free time and pay to use a gym in order to keep fit progress?
    Is having leisure time, but nowhere pleasant to spend it progress?
    Is having cheap 'gas', but having to commute 50 miles to work progress?
    Is having a world economy that relies on an ever-increasing human population progress
    Is the exploitation of 80% of the world's inhabitants by the other 20%, progress?
    Is the destruction of the diversity of human culture progress?
    And before you accuse me of being an unrealistic left-wing do-gooder: I want to see a more responsible attitude to the environment for purely selfish reasons. I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at a cheaply built brick and concrete jungle, listening to the roar of traffic, breathing polluted air and eating tasteless food, thanks very much.
    Besides, that constant haze of pollution really fucks up the quality of light in my photographs.
     
  26. Pete, I'd answer Yes to all those questions, enthusiastically! It's
    called Personal Freedom. Its the reason we kicked your butts out
    over 200 years ago. Now, look at us, versus you. We're still
    advancing, while you're wearing out your fingernails trying to hold
    onto what you've got left, which isn't much. I'd say we made the
    right decision.
     
  27. Peter, thank you for putting far more eloquently what I'd like to say.

    <p>

    If realistic means: 'well we want to have more so we use the earth
    till all is gone', than I don't want to be realistic!

    <p>

    Please: is all our wealth (or what ever we like to call it) enough
    reason to leave a mess to our children?

    <p>

    I always thought that we photographers knew a bit about beauty...
     
  28. NO. It's called being a corporately owned sheep. You have the
    'personal freedom' to do exactly what politicians and international
    companies want you to do.<br>I'm glad we no longer have the
    responsibility for looking after you lot.
     
  29. Sorry Wim. That wasn't aimed at you, but at smart Alec.
     
  30. Wrong email address in my last posting.

    <p>

    Alec: what if your neighbor's personal freedom means that he makes a
    hell of a noise in the middle of the night, burns awfully smelling
    stuff in his backgarden and has the singing birds for breakfast.

    <p>

    Is 'the pursuit of happiness' just the 'pursuit of consumer goods'?
     
  31. The pure greed to secure large portions of unused natural resources
    is what spawned the pursuit of the New World in the 1400's and it is
    the most fundamental tenet of the human economy. In a text book
    world, we surely would have been better as a human race if we used
    our intelligence to think beyond the end of our nose. Unfortunately,
    the only lessons we humans learn are those following aggregious
    mistakes. Without lumber that is harvested, minerals that are mined,
    petroleum that is drilled and water that is piped, we would be living
    in a cave. Politely ask a vegetarian photographer about their link to
    the meat industry (boiled bones to produce gelatin film backing) and
    you will see a face of disbelief and denial. I have seen the railroad
    cars of animal bones that Kodak has shipped from the packing houses
    in the West to Massachusetts. My point is that the more we embrace
    the realities of our human existance in the intellectual form and
    refrain from pure polarity on the issues we face to protect our
    environment, the better chance we have of making real progress.
    Spouting emotion only creates irrational behavior and takes us back
    to how our animal ancestors resolved disputes. Natural beauty is
    everyone's cause as we have the strongest economy in the world but at
    what price? How we balance the need to provide jobs and prepare for
    the world our children will live in will define out future. In a
    rather simplistic way, when I take my son with me to make make a
    photograph in a wilderness area here in Colorado, I feel that I have
    done a small part to make a positive impact on the future generation
    that hopefully he can feel passionate about as he grows up.
     
  32. It's funny... I live in a society (Sweden) where it is actually
    possible to get by without owning a car (even in the countryside,
    though admittedly harder). Gas prices are around USD$4/gallon, of
    which about 80 percent is tax, intended to keep car usage down. And
    it works. People use public transportation, urban sprawl follows the
    subway and train lines, etc. I used to live in Northern California,
    so I do understand that changing the American society to be less car-
    dependent would take a very long time, probably a generation or two.
    But it must eventually happen, so perhaps it would be a smart move to
    start the change sooner rather than later? I'd say that with gas
    prices above $2/gallon (used to be 85c), the change has begun,
    although most Americans have not yet accepted that. Keeping the gas
    prices down by increasing the supply - Alaska or not - will just
    postpone the inevitable transition. Better save the Alaskan oil for
    colder days. Best regards, Åke
     
  33. Fair enough Michael. Emotion alone will get us nowhere. Though I get
    emotional speaking about these things.

    <p>

    But there is more between living in a cave and in the way Hollywood
    prescribes. Just think about what you are doing. Is this buy really
    necessary, do I have to go by car, couldn't I do without yet another
    snack. You get the picture.

    <p>

    It is not just good for future generations, but for our personal joy
    in life as well. The food I cook tastes so much better now it is
    almost all bio-organic. It costs more, it tastes better and
    it 'feels' better.

    <p>

    And yes, sometimes I am lazy and go by car. Or stupid and eat another
    bucket of cookies.

    <p>

    I know this has little to do with photography (allthough the pursuit
    of consumer goods is very apparent here :)
     
  34. Thanks for the e-mail Matt, you touched on something elemental to
    the debate, living a fuller and happier life by lowering you standard
    of living. Compared to other countries most of us enjoy a pretty high
    standard of living, and the folks who don't have money are still
    living like 'kings' off their credit cards.

    <p>

    Some folks here don't know what poor is, you go to some countries
    and poor means not eating for a couple week if you eat at all, not an
    old TV, a raggedy car, a place to stay and all you can eat like here
    in the states. I've been broke several times, flat broke, but I've
    never gone hungry. Here in the States you can live like a king while
    you put yourself in debt and I believe that is at the heart of the
    problem.

    <p>

    A while back my wife and I looked at what we were doing, we were
    astounded by the debt we had run up on our credit cards, we made a
    pact that we would quit using them except in an emergency, pretty much
    cash only until we paid them off. The more we reduced out debt the
    more fun life became. Our standard of living hasn't really changed
    even though we might have less, or rather our quality of life has
    increased.

    <p>

    Everybody is going to go through a period when they're broke
    unless you picked rich parents, I've been broke several times so don't
    bother with a thread about being broke, which you typed on your
    computer.
     
  35. Hi

    <p>

    Are you using so much oil for your LF cameras?
    Sounds for me to much of topic!
    I think you are all in the wrong movie here!
     
  36. Hey Michael, If I come up and we go out to where the oil is
    underneath, how many mosquito bites will I get for each 45 minutes of
    shooting? I hate mosquitoes! Best regards. Jim
     
  37. Although home with the flu today, I had to drag myself out of bed to
    see what's happened with this thread. Here goes:

    <p>

    Eric - Circumstances, in this case elderly in-laws who can't tolerate
    the elevation at which we're planning to build our next home, plus
    the inability to walk away from long-term retirement programs just
    yet without benefits being trashed, mean there's no viable
    alternative to an internal combustion engine driven vehicle for us at
    this time. I've taken reasonable steps to minimize my impact on the
    planet by driving a vehicle that achieves very high fuel economy and
    is rated as Ultra Low Emission.

    <p>

    Michael - I've been to the great land. Natives survived just fine
    without Europeans and a cash based economy before our invasion. I
    feel no compulsion to drill in ANWR so anyone can exist there in
    other than a subsistence situation.

    <p>

    Matt - you're absolutely correct about the "amount of damage done in
    one summer by tourists, photogs, hikers, bikers, et al." You
    underscore my point about greatly excessive population. I take this
    subject very seriously, and am childless by choice, again to minimize
    what we take from the planet. Our home here has no lawn, thus no
    sprinklers. Since forced to install living landscape materials by
    homeowners association covenents, I have planted low water demand
    xeriscape species and sustain them with a drip irrigation system.
    It's the least consumption possible without being fined for violating
    the rules.

    <p>

    Alec - yes, I wish my taxes were higher. Although we have no
    children of our own, I find it unconscionable that a huge cut in
    current taxes was enacted despite the massive debt our government
    carries. That debt is nothing more than a tax in advance on the
    children of everyone here who does have them. All I can offer to
    those who think taxes are too high in the US is what my late father
    would say to me when I complained on that subject: "May you pay as
    much in taxes next year as you earned this year."

    <p>

    Chad - just because BLM made bad decisions does not mean we should
    open ANWR.

    <p>

    Pete - were it not for the level of technical expertise you bring to
    actual photography posts (much greater than mine) I don't think we
    could be told apart. If I ever make it across the pond again it
    would be nice to meet you.

    <p>

    Jonathan - Americans (collectively) are a spoiled child. You are
    correct that most of us here do not have a clue what poor is. Yes,
    there are some pockets of real poverty, but for the most part "hard
    times" are perceived as not being able to get the loan for a desired
    new car. Stuff abounds, but enjoyment of life is in short supply.

    <p>

    While I don't display signs or bumper stickers on my vehicles, I do
    read those in front of me. One that provided a good laugh along with
    a possible way to deal with some of the inane attitudes around us
    was: "I feel much better since I gave up hope." Of course those of
    you with children might not like it as much.
     
  38. "we will continue to be held hostage by the Middle
    East."

    <p>

    Think it is the other way around, or don't you get newspapers in the
    USA Michael
     
  39. To those who are for the drilling: now, what happens AFTER you
    finally burn out the Alaskan oil? Plead to somebody who still has oil
    supplies (like Russia) to sell it at a resonable price? And what you
    are gonna do if they won't be "reasonable"? Declare war on them? You
    actually have to decide this right now. There is not much oil left on
    this planet.
     
  40. Michael Bird had the best idea - why not come up here to Alaska and
    check out ANWR for yourselves. We can use the extra tourism. Sheet
    film is available in Fairbanks at Alaskan Photo Repair (Agfa - they
    also sell used LF equipment), Fairbanks Fast Photo (Kodak) and the
    University of Alaska Fairbanks Wood Center (Kodak and sometimes
    Ilford). Gas prices are about the same as outside (I think -- I walk
    to work and so have only bought one tank the last two months).

    <p>

    That's about all I can contribute to the discussion, since as an
    employee of the University (and therefore the State) of Alaska, I am
    forbidden by state administrative law from saying anything which
    might discourage exploitation of oil in the ANWR (even as a private
    citizen -- this is sent from home on a personally-owned computer)
     
  41. Adrian: Clearly you understand my literary intent. When we import
    over 60% of our daily oil consumption from the Middle East, we are
    extremely vunerable to the changing winds of politics. When the rest
    of the Arab world equates our affiliation with Israel as sleeping
    with the enemy, how long will it be before greed for oil revenues is
    surpassed by sympathy for the poor and surpressed? In my opinion, we
    are dangerously close to a Middle East catastrophy that could bring
    our economy to its knees in less than a month.

    <p>

    As far as hydrocarbon resources in the world, you would find the
    projections of reserves for oil and natural gas to be 50-100 years in
    the future even at modestly escalated consumption trends. The key is
    the forward price model used to make the calculation. The higher a
    BBL of oil of an MMBTU of natural gas, the more technology (deeper
    water drilling, better seismic etc.) we can expend to explore for and
    produce it. In my previous life as a Petroleum Engineer I was
    intimately involved in these efforts. Natural Gas is one of the most
    important components of a Clean Resource model that we can use. We
    are quite independent from our Middle East dependency and its
    combustion byproducts are 1000 times cleaner than the cleanest fuel
    oil. In the United States mainland, we have just about found and
    recovered all of the oil that there is to find. Here is an alarming
    statistic. The best oil well only recovers 8-12% of the oil that is
    in the reservoir in primary production. Secondary recoveries (water
    floods) recover a bit more and tertiary floods (polymers etc.) may
    raise the recoverable oil to about 25% of what is in place. That
    means that we leave 75% (+/-) in the ground. We can recover more than
    90% + of the natural gas from a natural gas field.

    <p>

    Alaska will not solve the problem all by itself. It is but one piece
    of a very dimensional potential solution. But without intense
    government funded research to discover a new source of universal
    energy, we are collectively watching the sand pass through the center
    of the hourglass. Have a good weekend.
     
  42. Pete, please note that I made arguments from both sides of the
    fence. Remember, I'm a moderate.<br><br>

    We won't rely on oil forever. Guranteed. And somehow I doubt the
    world will end before the alternative is discovered.<br><br>

    If you're not contributing to a solution, you're nothing more than
    part of the problem. Quit your bitching, and do something meaningful.
     
  43. When we import over 60% of our daily
    oil consumption from the Middle East
    ---

    <p>

    I heard on Nightline the other night that we actually use
    very, very litle Mideast oil in the states. I dont recall the exact
    number but it was way less than 20% of our oil. the reason we defend
    it is because our allies in Europe depend heavily on it. Thats just
    what I heard-dont shoot the messenger

    <p>


    At any rate, Sal is on the money. This great country is going to be on
    a world of hurt if we dont wake up and smell the stink of growth that
    has brought us much to be thankful for, but has become an
    unsustainable disease.
     
  44. In the year 2000, we imported a total of 53% of our consumed oil. 23%
    of it came from OPEC countries. The remainder came from Non-OPEC
    countries including Russia, Mexico, Canada Nigeria and many others.
    In the last two years with the growing economy, this import number
    has increased.

    <p>

    Check out the year 2000 numbers at:

    <p>

    www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

    <p>

    Information is power......
     
  45. It looks like on average over the past few decades, that the Nightline
    figures were pretty close. Nowhere do I see 60%, or even over 25% of
    our imports coming from the Mideast. Makes you wonder what exactly
    we're protecting, doesnt it?
     
  46. Still can`t see what it has to do with LF!!!!

    <p>

    Go back shooting!!!
     
  47. There are no simple answers :

    <p>

    eg Hydrogen when burnt becomes water = a great greenhouse gas =
    global warming. And where do you get the energy from to break down
    water to get hydrogen in the first place?

    <p>

    Some species have thrived around the Alaska pipeline some hate it.

    <p>

    etc etc

    <p>

    But if it is not easy to know the answers it is easy to know the
    questions eg Pete Andrews list. My list starts with 'Do I want my
    children and grandchildren to have as good a world to live in as i
    have?'

    <p>

    What has this got to do with LF ? I'd like landscapes of the future
    to be as good as the present ones.
     
  48. BTW, I love you guys!
     
  49. ok ! ok ! the environment is a subject I get emotional about. But
    when you think that in a few decades we could change the whole
    world's climate and get rising sea levels, more frequent and more
    powerful storms, more frequent el nino events, droughts, floods etc
    then perhaps that is not a bad thing.
     
  50. ok ! ok ! the environment is a subject I get emotional about. But
    when you think that in a few decades we could change the whole
    world's climate and get rising sea levels, more frequent and more
    powerful storms, more frequent droughts, floods etc then perhaps that
    is not a bad thing.
     
  51. I don’t own a car – I walk and ride my bicycle to get where I need to
    go, so I have no concern if gas is $.10 or $10 a gallon.
     
  52. I was expecting a discussion of LF photography issues when I stumbled
    onto this thread. How on earth did we hit upon this topic?

    <p>

    Knowing full well that drilling in the arctic refuge is not a
    complete solution to our energy problems, I'm still all for drilling
    there. I hope President Bush will skirt congress and pull something
    along the lines of an executive order to get the job done.

    <p>

    Drilling in the arctic does not mean automatic enviornmental ruin as
    greanpeace, and the sierra club et al would have you believe. Since
    the Alaskan pipeline has been in place, the caribou population has
    continued to flourish. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if their
    population is sufficient enough that the caribou farts start to
    contribute to the much overblown "greenhouse effect."

    <p>

    Relax Colin, pop open a tall cold one and enjoy life a little. The
    enviornment isn't going to change all over the world, just because we
    drill in Alaska. The climate hasn't been studied long enough to tell
    if a trend towards global warming even exists. Even if it did exist,
    is global warming aactually a bad thing? Is industrialized man to
    blame, or is it a naturally occuring event? I understand that the
    polar ice caps on Mars are melting too. I didn't know Mars had
    SUV's, factories or conservatives to cause global warming there. Do
    you think it might be the sun that is causing the warming? Na, guess
    that would be to obvious.

    <p>

    The USA has a strong economy, in spite of the nay-sayers, and we will
    continue to need new sources of energy to fuel our growing economy
    and population. Natural gas (other than Sals'), alternative fuels,
    and conservation all play a part in the energy picture; but for the
    short term, we need more oil, refineries, and power plants. Without
    more power plants spewing out tons of coal emisions, how will we ever
    power those tiny little electric cars? In the long term we
    definately need to look into other sources of energy, as well as
    superconductor technology to cut energy loss in power lines, and
    hydroelectric needs to be exploited more.

    <p>

    Those of you who either don't care or actually want $5.00/gal plus
    fuel prices, ARE YOU INSANE?! All levels of the economy will be
    adversely effected, even yours Sal. There are a lot of very decent,
    hard working people out there who would sufer from these high
    prices. Even those who drive the little rice burning 40mpg cars will
    sufer from hyper-inflation. Be careful of what you wish for!

    <p>

    Sal: I want to sincerely thank you for not having any children. I
    can sleep easy knowing that the gene pool is safe for yet another
    day :)
     
  53. Of course Eric, there are no enviromental problems! If there would
    be, we had to change the way we live. That is what we don't want, so
    there are no enviromental problems.

    <p>

    I guess this is what people call realistic?
     
  54. Eric - thanks for your well reasoned contribution. It's good to hear
    from those who keep an open mind, reach conclusions based on best
    available scientific evidence rather than wishful thinking, strive
    for an inclusive society, respect the constitutional separation of
    powers, and are always civil, sticking to issues rather than
    descending into personal attacks.

    <p>

    Were the US government to levy appropriate fuel taxes, resulting in
    gasoline prices rising to the level I described, there would indeed
    be temporary negative economic consequences for many decent, hard
    working people, including myself. I consider that alternative
    preferable to the path we're now taking. It is easy to conclude
    that, since ever-growing human population and its load on the
    environment has been tolerated so far, why worry now? The problem
    with this approach is that carrying capacity of the planet will be
    reached suddenly and irreversibly if we ignore the evidence and
    continue our exponential increase of exploitation and pollution.
     
  55. You don't know this man, so making a snide comment on whether he
    did or didn't have kids is wrong.
     
  56. The USA has a strong economy, in spite of the nay-sayers, and we will
    continue to need new sources of energy to fuel our growing economy and
    population.

    <p>

    --

    <p>

    the economy, the economy, the economy. The economy, the economy, the
    economy. The economy the economy the economy. Growth, growth,
    growth. Growth, growth, growth. the econonmy the economy the
    economy. This is true patriotism! Who gives a flippin flop about
    anything but the economy and growth? This should always be the number
    one thing on our minds, always. Why should we, with more than anyone
    else, sacrifice one little penny that could be going into our pocket?
    Conserve? Develop alternatives? Sustainable anything? Nahhh! Hell, we
    could probably have even more money without these damn environmental
    regulations! The environment doesnt matter anyway, and theres nothing
    wrong! That *overwhelming majority* of scientists who say there IS
    something wrong are just angry because they arent on retainer by the
    oil companies. We dont have too much growth and too many people
    already, we need MORE oil use and people and growth to fuel our
    economy and growth, which will then grow more, and then we'll need
    more oil and people and growth to the fuel that economy and then of
    course more growth and more poeple and more...! This cycle then
    apparently continues, without end, in the small minds of those who
    support it. They think we can get bigger and bigger and richer and
    richer forever and ever.

    <p>

    Those who promote this endless growth attitude are apparently unaware
    of some very basic physical and ecological laws of this planet, and
    need to to be locked up for 6 months with nothing but an ecological
    economics book or two. If you really care about the economy, you
    should learn why we cant continue the way we have been forever.

    <p>

    We are not only economically healthy now, we are economically bloated
    and materialistically obese, and could stand to lose more than a
    little weight to help ensure our future health-or even just our
    future. Quite simply, we cannot sustain the madness of growth forever.
    Obviously some people, and oil companies, will never accept this on
    their own. Politicians will never address this pro-actively because
    its political suicide. It will only happen when the rest of us educate
    ourselves and realize the economic (and ecologic) fallacy and
    ultimately destructive effects of continuing to follow the endless
    growth mentality, and make it socially unacceptable. But we have been
    programmed to believe that growth is always good. We are so screwed up
    that it has become morally reprehensible to even suggest that growth
    and greed isnt desireable! In fact, growth has brought us many good
    things to be thankful for in the past, but there is NO reason to think
    it can continue in perpetuity, or that its drawbacks wont eventually
    outweigh its benefits. In fact, they already do outweigh its benefits
    for those who value open space, uncrowded wild places, wild things,
    and the possibility of a sustainable future in a liveable world.
     
  57. The First Drunk is an oilman... need we look any further for the real
    reason he is pushing this? His buddies will all get rich as will his
    family. No honest person spends $200 million to get a job that pays
    less than $200 thousand a year.
    As for gas guzzling SUV's. Just try loading a full sheet of plywood,
    a batch of 2x4's and a few bags of fertilizer in the civic & see what
    happens. I live in a relatively rural area and more than 70% of the
    roads in our county are dirt with a number of the towns having no
    paved roads at all. Some times of the year you don't get in or out
    without 4wd and at times you have to wait a day or two for the roads
    to clear up a bit to travel them. Anytime I head out to Grouse Creek,
    Yost or southern Idaho or northern Nevada I have to take overnight
    gear just in case the weather gets feisty. Jarbidge, Nevada is so
    isolated you can't even get to it from Nevada roads 7-9 months out of
    the year.
    So yes, some of do use SUV's or trucks because we have to. The rest
    of the time I drive a VW diesel (82 model) that gets around 50 mpg
    and is light enough that it is easier to tow or dig out of the snow
    when the inevitable happens. In spite of the ads, AAA does NOT tow
    you even when you get stuck in a snowbank in downtown Lynn, Utah. (I
    know it is downtown as there are two buildings within a quarter mile).

    <p>

    If I could do it with an electric car, I would. If I could use
    hydrogen, I would as I have seen & driven hydrogen powered cars &
    they are great... just no place to fill up in Almo, Idaho or Gold
    Hill, Utah or the middle of nowhere. So, we are stuck with gas &
    diesel for the present.

    <p>

    As far as all the statistics we keep repeating, a federal study shows
    that 74.4 percent of statistics are made up as needed while the other
    50% are wrong.

    <p>

    I bet if we made all government employees take public transportation
    we would save a lot more oil than with any other proposed solution.
     
  58. Here's some statistics for ya....30% of the worlds natural resourses
    have been destroyed since 1970.The seas are in severe decline.Dont
    eat too much fish...esp the kids...unless you like mercury....that
    is if you can find the fish .Cancers on the rise...overuse of
    chemicals in food and animal feed.Disease on the rise...overuse of
    antibiotics.Rise in childrens asthma ...cause....air
    pollutants.General overall suffering of humankind...
    poverty/jobless/starvation....cause...overpopulation...which is
    directly or indirectly related to all the problems of humanity both
    physically and psychologically. Time to wake up! If you cant work
    for a better planet for altruistic reasons do it for greedy
    ones.....do you really want your children and grandchildern to live
    in a garbage dump?
     
  59. Hi all

    <p>

    I know there are many economical and also money oriented problems on
    the world. But for example the USA is not behind the Kyoto protocols
    and tid not sign them up!
    So everything should be fine in USA, isn`t?
    But it is not a political forum here!
     
  60. I am so glad this isn't a usenet forum...
     
  61. The fact of the matter is that the ANWR debate in Washington is simply a political game that's being played by each party to earn points for their side. I don't believe for a second that either party really gives a rats a** about ANWR or its oil; they're just looking to mollify their constituents.
    Politics aside, the unfortunate aspect that's being ignored is that defeating drilling in ANWR simply shifts the focus to other areas. Here's one of the headlines from my local rag yesterday:
    http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRM N_4_1097366,00.html
    Again, I doubt anyone in Washington really cares about the outcome. You can bet they'll act like they do at their conventions though.
     
  62. Well, I doubly hosed that one up!
    (screwed up the HTML AND I used the wrong link)
    Try this:
    Rockies eyed as plan to drill oil-rich refuge heads to defeat
     
  63. Good grief - have you guys never heard of the word "TROLL"? Note the
    guy who started this never replied to any other posts - he just sat
    back and had a good chuckle...
     
  64. So you're saying this guy is short, ugly, and lives under a bridge!??
     

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