Saul Leiter 'Early Color'

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by andrewlamb, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. I know that the exhibition 'Early color' was mentioned in an earlier thread but I've just bought a copy of the
    book and I just want to give it a plug.

    It's published, at least in the UK, by Steidl (who also published the brilliant 'Evelyn Hofer') and is very nicely
    printed publication that I think must go some way justice to doing justice to the photos. The pictures
    themselves are exquisite.

    I know a lot of people rightly sing the praises of Eggleston and his colour photography but Leiter's work
    was done, considerably, earlier in the '50s and I think his praises should be sung too. End of rant.

    Highly recommneded.
     
  2. I have seen some of his work in person -- it is superb. Very interesting to see the world of
    the fifties in color as well. It's funny how those of us who did not live it associate the world of
    that era as being in black and white. For me, everything from the 1860s to the 1960s seems
    black and white, but everything before and after seems in color...Don't get me wrong though,
    Leiter's work is interesting for many reasons beyond the fact that it is in color...
     
  3. The introduction to the book is interesting. It state that, to achieve the look he was after,
    Leiter would experiment with out of date emulsions and some of the more obscure colour
    films then available. However he created it, it's a wonderful use of colour.

    Sadly, the exhibition prints are, for me at least, prohibitively expensive.
     
  4. Ernst Haas, not Eggleston, is generally considered the first great color photographer.
     
  5. i was in paris a couple of years back and finally got round to going up the arc de triomphe. In
    the large rom at the top of the arc was an exhibition of colour photographs from the first
    world war - pretty amazing stuff really - lots of bombed out cathedrals and troops at rest
    and troops going in to battle. I had never really registered that colour film existed that far
    back. Afraid I have no recollection of who took the pictures, but fairly sure he was some
    french officer type.

    Robert
     
  6. Bill,

    Nobody said that Eggleston was the first great colour photographer. I simply that he gets a
    lot of praise for his use of colour.

    Haas is fine but I personally think there's something very special about Leiter's colour work
    from the '50s.
     
  7. I have a 1960 "The German Photographic Annual" (in English) and a 1960 "U.S. Camera Annual". Both have a very small section of color photos. My collection of Popular Photography Magazine's annuals from the 1960's have very little color either.
     
  8. Some of Paul Wollff's earliest colour pictures taken with a Leica are remarkable. They were taken before the second world war - 1938 I think.
     
  9. also check out the leica work of Keld Helmer-Petersen who published a book in 1948 titled "122 Colour Photographs." some examples of his work.
     
  10. If you google "Bound for Glory" there are color photographs from the Library of Congress collection from the late 30's and early 40's. Also I think the National Geographic may have ben publishing some color photos in that era.
     
  11. Andrew, I really like Saul Leiter's work, but I also understand the emphasis put on the
    significance of Eggleston. He's one of the few people that the critics have got right - lazy
    received wisdom (as exemplified by the pointless comment on Haas) on the last hundred
    years of photo history is ripe for revisionism. If you reflect on Eggleston's Guide 30 years
    on you see how he influenced (thinking) photographers in pretty much every genre
    imaginable - reportage, fashion, landscape, portraiture.....Obviously, there are other great
    photographers (many predating him), but I don't think any other has had such a profound
    and lasting impact. Everything changed - for the better - after Eggleston.
     
  12. jtk

    jtk

    IMO the best color photographers have always been commercial illustrative photographers...certainly today, but going waaaay back. Ernst Haas is an example, as was Irving Penn.

    Ektachrome E3 was the big breakthrough in the 50s...lovely stuff, far better than anything before it, save Kodachrome, almost as good as the best E4 (there were many good E3 labs, hardly any good E4 labs).

    Most of the images in Arizona Highways Magazine were, for decades, E3. I was priviliged to inspect a number of these by the pioneer color landscape photographer Josef Muench (father of David Muench, as great as his father) in 4x5 in the 80s...these chromes had generally shifted heavily magenta, but were easy to correct in duplication for color separation.

    http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/1aa/1aa621.htm

    I'm sure we've all seen the color photos of Hitler et al

    http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,339540,00.html

    My mother Lilian, a farm girl born 1916, shot and home-developed photos of the 1939 World's Fair (Treasure Island, San Francisco Bay). Tripod night-shots of colorfully lit buildings, fireworks etc. These slides still look good..but due to the subject matter it's impossible to say if the color has shifted ! I think it's Agfachrome (which had to become "Anscochrome" due to the war...prehaps someone correct me on that history). Anscochrome was very easy to develop (like E3), had punchy, crude colors, and managed to survive into the 70s, when I ran one of the last small audiovisual labs that used it (Palo Alto CA).
     
  13. Boris, Doris and Maurice, agreed: Eggleston's influence cannot be overestimated.

    However, as I was leafing through some of the style bibles in RD Franks yesterday, it did
    occur to he is also inadvertently responsible for a lot of very lazy photography out there.
    It's not his fault I know but, there are way too many shots of rubbish bins, appartment
    blocks with washing lines, discarded tricycles, etc filling out these mags. I've also seen a
    lot of this at some recent graduate shows.

    Mind you, this could be me being in a grump 'cause I've now got to go and photograph
    some architects at a fairground and it's currently belting with rain in Londonium.

    BTW, Leiter's work intrigues me in many ways and one minor interest is that it would be
    extremely tricky to plagarise.

    PS: you know about these things, what's a good flash for the 5D?
     
  14. ....and who was that Danish photographer, whose colour work from the '40s, Martin Parr has
    been championing? I think a book of his was re-published last year. Amazing stuff and
    incredibly advanced.
     
  15. Anscochrome and Agfachrome were based on the same tecchnology. I think Agfa owned a controlling interest in Ansco before WW-II. Neither film had really long term stable color, and the Agfachrome had very sharp edged grain, like B&W film developed in Agfa Rodinol.The Anscochrome was very easy to process yourself. They sold little one pint kits. The biggest pain was mounting the slides.

    E3 Ektachrome had better color than E2 but required refridgerated storage and didn't have a really long shelf life. E4 was a big improvement over E2, and E6 pretty much killed off E3 for most uses.
     
  16. jtk

    jtk

    Eggleston came to the party very late...he simply replicated (in large format) what a lot of others had done for years (mostly in 35mm). Nothing new, good publicity.
     
  17. jtk

    jtk

    Thanks Al...your recollection about small Ansco kits does seem to fit my mother's story. I shoot mostly B&W now, but I've got color reversal in my blood (and an allergy to hydroquinone).

    In the Seventies I ran Media Generalists in San Francisco.. Smithsonian said it was the best E4 lab in the country. I left it to convert an Anscochrome lab to E4. Both labs served audio visual producers. All the while I processed E3 at home in a bathtub setup :) Commercial photographers often found E3, processed by themselves, better than typical custom lab E4. E6 was FABULOUS right out of the chute, a strong, EQUAL rival to Kodachrome. More color accurate, as sharp as any lens, more subtle. Naysayers simply have not dealt with good E6 labs.
     
  18. jtk

    jtk

    Pete Turner is closely in line after Edward Weston, and at least equal to Ansel:

    http://www.peteturner.com/
     
  19. John,

    Eggleston shot large format? Don't think. Isn't he Leica or Fuji 6x9 man?

    As for saying that others had already done what he did, maybe or maybe not. But if it was
    already very familiar why did it cause such a critical fuss when it was first exhibited in the
    '70s?

    Personally, I don't think there were many photographers doing what Eggleston was doing.
    Having said that, I don't know a huge amount about the fine art scene in photography and
    I prefer Saul Leiter anyway :)
     
  20. Stephen Shore photographed in large format.
     
  21. In "William Eggleston in the Real World" he is seen using an old Mamiya Universal and a
    couple of 35mm cameras. I was under the impression that his first show was based on
    35mm slide film. As I understand it the reason that he is seen as such a landmark figure is
    that he was one of the first colour photographers to have a solo exhibition at a large art
    museum.

    I hadn't heard of Saul Leiter before but google brought up a couple of images and they are
    lovely.

    I have seen a couple of beautiful colour photographs by Lartigue dating from (I think) the
    1920s. Also a quick look at wiki brought up this photo from a Russian chap who invented
    a colour process - Sergei Mikhailovich Porkudin-Gorskii - which dates from 1905, which
    even predates the french WWI autochromes I mentioned above.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:prokudin-Gorskii-08.jpg
     
  22. "I hadn't heard of Saul Leiter before but google brought up a couple of images and they are
    lovely."

    Robert, check out the book. It's a gem.
     
  23. "....and who was that Danish photographer, whose colour work from the '40s, Martin Parr has
    been championing? I think a book of his was re-published last year. Amazing stuff and
    incredibly advanced."

    Keld Helmer Peterson. Duh! Apologies to Kevin Smith for not noticing his mentioning this
    earlier. Anyway, another interesting fine art photographer working in colour. Still seems
    modern.
     
  24. This conversation led me to look at some of Helen Levitt's colour stuff from New York. Looks interesting as well.

    But thanks for this Saul Leiter post Andrew. I think I will get a copy of Early Colour.
     
  25. Got one for 23 quid from amazon just now.
     
  26. Now, if only this bloke would publish a book!

    http://www.toddhido.com/todd.html
     
  27. Trevor, not only are they beautiful photographs but the book, itself, is lovely. Well done to
    the publishers.

    Enjoy!
     
  28. Just had to go and flick through 'Los Alamos' and 'Uncommon places' again.

    p 112 in Los Alamos (old Coca Cola machine and chair) and the 'Calculators' shop front (Shore) are still faves.
     
  29. no problem Andrew. i would also suggest anyone interested in Eggleston take a look at the work of Luigi Ghirri. some examples of his work.
     
  30. Thanks, Kevin. Nice to check out that link. Much appreciated.
     
  31. I love the one with the little caravan (trailer) it reminds me of something from 'Father Ted'.
     
  32. "Now, if only this bloke would publish a book!
    http://www.toddhido.com/todd.html"

    Trevor, hummm. Like some of the sections but I must confess that I find the portraits
    section slightly dreary. Well, to be honest, very dreary. I feel like I've seen that 'house style'
    a bit too much.

    I'm getting grumpy in my old age.....
     
  33. I like the nighttime (very long exposure) shots of the houses most. Does strange things with the light.

    Agree about the portaits (and the motel stuff)
     
  34. love some of the Hido and some of the Ghirri - thanks for those links.

    This is when these forums work best I think - when we can discover new [to us] work, instead
    of just bitching back and forth about levels of intelligence and parenthood.

    Thomas - very glad to see you aren't so blase' towards printing as it seemed from your words
    above....

    R
     
  35. I liked what I saw of Ghirri's work but, sadly, Amazon don't to have too much to offer at
    present.
     
  36. Thomas?

    Confused of Kentish Town.
     
  37. Thanks for plug, Andrew. I'll check out the book.

    Also thanks for the link to Pete Turner's pics. His "Walls of Light" collection made my day. He's a dude who needs one book with his comprehensive collection.
     
  38. jtk

    jtk

    Both Andrew and Trevor are right. I was thinking of Shore when I unfairly damned Eggleston.

    But to put my foot deeper in it, I don't think Eggleston's color work was nearly as significant as Pete Turner's. WE's seemed very good B&W "art" photography that was, for no important reason, rendered in color.
     
  39. Sorry, John. I've looked at Pete Turner's site and it doesn't do anything for me. To put it
    bluntly, it looks like 'poster art'. I find it too slick and somewhat impersonal.

    Obviously, it's all a matter of taste blah, blah, blah.

    On the other hand, I really respond to the lyricism in Leiter's work. There's real subtlety in
    the composition and design as well as a wonderful sense of colour. I think that 'Early
    Color' is one of the best photo books I've seen in years. Maybe I need to see more books, I
    dunno.

    EVERYBODY, run out and buy 'Early Color'!!!
     
  40. ....or stay where you are and order it off Amazon....

    .......I think Zeiss is sharper........
     
  41. Andrew - Sorry - Thomas was in another thread.....i was oddly enough confusing this with
    another thread in the "philosophy" forum, which is why i was so surprised that everyone
    wasn't slagging each other off at gale force 9. Sorry......

    I too checked the Pete Turner pages and did not really like what I found at all.

    R
     
  42. Not only was Eggleston's early color work not "large format" it was on-topically taken with
    a Leica and Kodachrome. As we're now recommending books, a few years back MoMA
    reissued a beautiful reprint of Guide; around the same time Thames and Hudson issued a
    nice retrospective (beginning with early b/w and coming right up to the present) in
    conjunction with Fondation Carter. It's entirely fitting that someone who doesn't rate
    Eggleston and Shore but likes the commercial triviality of Pete Turner should try and derail
    the thread with a dull diversion into the history of color processing (ably abetted by Al,
    who never seems to want to draw attention to work other than his own).

    In terms of current color, Mitch Epstein's (www.mitchepstein.net) looking as good as ever,
    and Alec Soth's (www.alecsoth.com) work is beautiful. Even Andrew and Trevor shouldn't
    be feeling too downbeat as their brit cohorts Paul Graham and Richard Billingham are
    punching well above their weight.
     
  43. I have enjoyed Billingham since... "Ray's a laugh"

    Unfortunately the book was a cheaply made one that has seperated at the spine so I need to order another one.

    Billingham did "Ray's a laugh" with a cheap no-name plastic film P&S and had the (free) film developed via a chemist on his local estate. (The life depicted in the book really was his life and there was not any money for Leicas!) He did the work for a college course not for the world art market and that keeps it real. I know he uses large format nowadays and I enjoyed his appearance on one of BBC4's 'Digital Picture Of Britain' episodes...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/features/digital-picture-britain.shtml

    Example...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/apictureofbritain/inspiration/region/eng_mid/leaf_apob_01.shtml
     
  44. Trevor, Billingham is frighteningly talented. If you haven't already, try to see his video
    "Fishtank" - same subject matter (his family) as Ray's a Laugh and possibly even more
    moving. He was the surprize hit of the Sensation show in London and NY, effortlessly
    upstaging the work of his superficially more radical Britart contemporaries.
     
  45. Boris what do you think about his more recent stuff like the large format landscapes?
     
  46. my copy of ray's a laugh also came apart at the spine. i resewed it reglued the cover. i knew those bookbinding classes would come in handy someday. has anybody seen 'black country'? i've been meaning to check it out.
     
  47. Watching little version of video now...

    http://www.vdb.org/smackn.acgi$tapedetail?FISHTANK
     
  48. Trevor, I like the landscapes. I like everything I've seen by him. He has a real purity of
    vision, there's nothing remotely contrived about his work
     
  49. Some here...

    http://www.artnet.com/artist/2488/richard-billingham.html

    Same thing going on with the light in the 'Black country' photos as in Todd Hido's night-time long exposures.

    I wish an exhibition of Billingham's work would come to London some time soon. With a decent book to accompany it.
     
  50. Trevor, if you liked 'Ray's a laugh' then maybe you might want to look up an old copy of
    Don McCullin's 'Homecoming'.

    It's about 30 years old and is an astonishing 'state of the nation' book. I know McCullin is
    celebrated for his war photography but I honestly think that this is even better. Genuinely
    powerful stuff.

    Boris, thank you for those kind crumbs of comfort about the state of British photography.
    Things haven't been the same since Rankin took up pantomine and Nick Waplington
    disappeared somewhere I'd rather not dwell on . While you're at it, please airlift more
    nylons and candy.
     
  51. Thanks Andrew. I have borrowed a copy of 'Perspectives' by Don Mccullin a number of times in the past from the local library. (Cannot seem to get my own copy second hand) This is a version of 'Homecoming' I think.

    I always end up reading his essay and am impressed by his humility in exposing his worries about photographing people who are destitute/suffering/traumatised. I think he suffers almost as much.

    I scored a good American copy of his 'Open skies' book a couple of years ago for about 45 quid because i love the Mendip hills and the Somerset levels and I enjoy his 'dark' landscapes of this part of Somerset. (Many don't) He has (and communicates) a real feel for the legends surrounding the place.
     
  52. I also have high praise for 'Shipping forecast' by Mark Power but I suspect that is going to get me grief from Boris or others as Mark Power seems to anger some people as much as Martin Parr angers others. (Who I also like a lot so more trouble for me!)

    If I could only have UK landscapes by two photographers it would have to be the 'Land' trilogy by Fay Godwin and 'Literary Britain' by Bill Brandt.
     
  53. We are way OT now. Sorry Andrew.

    Looking forward to getting my 'Early Colors' tomorrow morning. Amazon UK did say 24hrs.

    There you are. Back on topic.
     
  54. I've got a copy of 'The Shipping forecast'. I really like it. I'm curious about the adverse
    reaction that mentioning Mark Power might cause. The book is a nice balance of
    traditional and modern landscape. It's not one to cause mass indignation is it?

    I haven't got many other landscape books as it's not really an area I'm interested in.

    'Homecoming' is documentary photography, focussing on the more deprived sections of
    society and taken largely in the '70s although one or two shots from the very early '60s
    have sneaked in. Huge chunks of it are shockingly bleak and it's a sad reminder that we're
    not really seeing this kind of reportage in our newspapers or magazines anymore.
     
  55. "I also have high praise for 'Shipping forecast' by Mark Power but I suspect that is going to
    get me grief from Boris or others as Mark Power seems to anger some people"

    Could a photographer as bland as Mark Power actually induce something as strong as
    anger? Indifference seems more likely. The same goes for his stablemate Peter Marlow,
    though I wouldn't want to stop either politely going about their dull and pointless (maybe
    not so pointless, they both do well from the corporate dollar) business. I certainly wouldn't
    let my mild disregard for those two cloud my view of Brit photography. In Paul Graham,
    Richard Billingham, Chris Killip, and Graham Smith you've got more than your fair share of
    major league contemporary photographers. If you're in the mood for buying books Trevor,
    why not take a reckless punt on Graham's American Night? You'll end up thanking me for
    it....
     
  56. Trevor, in case you win the lottery.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0333174798/202-0353826-3314246?
    v=glance&n=266239
     
  57. In around 1984 I bought a copy of Homecoming for around two pounds fifty on Charing
    Cross Road - clearly I should have bought a lot more. There were huge remaindered piles
    of the book.
     
  58. "I'm curious about the adverse reaction that mentioning Mark Power might cause"

    I think Boris just answered you.
     
  59. "Huge chunks of it are shockingly bleak and it's a sad reminder that we're not really seeing this kind of reportage in our newspapers or magazines anymore."

    The reason is that 'Lifestyle' and gardening and Cookery sells more newspapers.

    Seriously Andrew, you probably know far better than I do (being in the industry) why this sort of thing does not go down well with editors of newspapers and magazines.

    It is a sad state of affairs. Given that in 1945 Lee Miller was able to publish some of the first photos of the concentration camp victims in Vogue (!) and yet in modern day Britain a photographer like Don Mccullin is 'black listed' from having his photos published in any of the Murdoch empire's newspapers. (Ever since he was 'sacked' from the Times and the government issued instructions to the armed forces to not knowingly allow him anywhere near any conflict they were involved in.)
     
  60. Agree about Marlow.

    'Shipping Forecast' bland? Perhaps, but I still like it. Whether it's because I have a soft spot
    for
    hearing the shipping forecast on Radio 4 or not I don't know. Let's be honest, the subject
    matter slightly mitigates against it being as gripping as, say, 'Ray's A Laugh'. But then I can
    hear Boris saying Eggleston could do the subject justice. True, but there is only one WE.

    Maybe you have to look at it whilst listening to 'Peter Grimes' or 'Sailing By'. Or maybe you
    need to have spent many forlorn summers by the English seaside.
     
  61. "In around 1984 I bought a copy of Homecoming for around two pounds fifty on Charing
    Cross Road - clearly I should have bought a lot more. There were huge remaindered piles of
    the book."

    Yes, but do you like it?
     
  62. Do I like it? Of course. Again there's a purity to it. I also rate his conflict coverage very
    highly - 40 years on it makes Nachtwey look like a very marginal footnote in photo
    history.

    Regarding the Shipping Forecast being a less than edgy topic, that's true, but it doesn't
    automatically follow that the vision has to be toothless. The same could be said of Soth's
    subjects but, like Misrach, they rise above the subject matter. I just get disappointed by
    the pointless faux gentility of people like Power and Marlow - they represent a
    passionless facet of
    middle-class Englishness that I just don't respect. Ironically, I do have an original print of
    one of the images
    from the Shipping Forecast, but I didn't buy it and it isn't on any of my walls.
     
  63. I remember reading an article about "Black Country" and am fairly sure Billingham used
    medium format for that. I hadn't seen the other photos though. It's funny - in almost all of
    the photogs linked I see traces of Eggleston. I was thinking that when looking through the
    Alec Soth Mississippi pages, when LO! I came across of photo of Bill himself.....!

    To keep on the topic of "colour photographers we like", and wildly off the LEICA topic [he
    shoots 8x10] I am afraid, I feel honour bound to point you guys to the website of a British
    guy called Harry Cory Wright. I stumbled across him one day whilst looking for information
    on DIASEC, and love his work.

    http://www.saltwater.co.uk

    From visiting Photo-London last month it seems that there is a lot of interesting "fine art"
    colour work going on at the moment. Large format seems to be the way forward, with
    prints most often mounted between perspex and aluminium and being LARGE. Two I
    remember most from that show were Massimo Vitali (beaches series - very beautiful) and
    Simon Norfolk (Computers series).

    R
     
  64. I have a print I commissioned from the E. Chambre Hardman trust in Liverpool (before the National Trust took over the Rodney Street studio) of 'the Rick'. It is a hand printed and hand toned 16x12 done from the original 1936 neg and it is as 'Pictorialist' as it gets and I love it!

    (It only cost 55 pounds and impossible to get one done now the NT have taken over. I just wish I had had the foresight to buy a few others at the time.)

    Not everything has to stab you in the head with relevance or hard hitting meaning to like it.

    So here is a poor web version of a print I love having on my wall....

    http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?change=storyInPictures&contentType=ConGallery&contentId=83&viewImage=5
     
  65. "They represent a passionless facet of middle-class Englishness"

    I think 'Shipping' is an example of a book where the idea is stronger than execution. The
    idea appeals to the cosy Radio 4 side of me and I'm afraid to say that I would have bought
    the book almost irrespective of the photography because the subject appeals.

    In a similar way, you wouldn't mind if I let folk, on the Forum, know that one of your
    personal favourite books is 'Seminal Hairdressers of the '70s'. Now, some of us are a bit
    aghast at the excessive use of star filters in this book but that doesn't bother you because
    it's a subject that you're particularly interested in.

    Having said that, although I really like 'Shipping', I readily conceed it's not one I would
    recommend. In fact, after 'Early Color' and 'Evelyn Hofer', I'd be hard pressed to suggest
    any recent photo books. Mind you, I don't get to see many new books after the demise of
    Zwemmers (don't like the Photographers' Gallery bookshop much).
     
  66. Trevor, re: 'The Rick". I'm originally from near Evesham. Best asparagus in the world. Fact!

    A couple of days ago I was at getty Images and I was very taken with a night study of the
    Embankment, taken in 1929. Another example of pictorialist photography but I loved it and
    the print was a real cracker. I'm assuming that the original neg must have been something
    like half plate glass because there's a wonderful quality to this shot.
     
  67. Andrew theres a great secondhand photography book shop over the road from St Pancras
    station, can't remember it's bloody name but it's very good, well worth a look
     
  68. Brian it's on Judd street and it's called something like Photo Book International (??). It must be
    well over 18 months since I visited it. Don't really go down Judd street anymore 'cause of all
    the roadworks between the British Library and St Pancras.

    Thanks for reminding me about it. I should cycle down and check it out. Cheers.
     
  69. re embankment at night Andrew. You mean this one...

    http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=3433454&cdi=0

    Yeah, nice.
     
  70. Shame about getty's really heavy handed watermarking.
     
  71. Trevor, I meant the other one.

    http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=3433042&cdi=0

    The print I saw was really huge and the quality was terrrfiic.
     
  72. Excuse spelling.
     
  73. Just to pull it all together - Zwemmers, books, and 'dos - didn't Claire de Rouen (nice
    Egyptian bob) open her own shop post-Zwemmers? I meant to check it out last month but
    sadly my London visit didn't get past 48 hours (much to Guy's disappointment).

    "Shame about getty's really heavy handed watermarking"

    Shame about Getty's very existence, and shame on Andrew if he's colluding with them.
    Absolute f#$%^*g barbarians, hellbent on destroying the livelihoods of photographers.

    "terrrfiic...Excuse spelling."

    I just thought that was how you country boys spoke.

    Possibly the best source of photo books in London is (was?) Mike Wells who deals from the
    jampacked basement of his Camden home. I've moved around so much in the last few
    years that I've fallen off his mailout list. Is he still in business? You Brit boys are also just a
    few hours away from the civilization of Paris and the wonderful La Chambre Claire (from
    the Barthes - nothing to do with the lovely London Claire de R) on rue Saint Sulpice.
    Finally, maybe somebody can confirm the rumors of Mr Mancuso's trilogy ("Rattlesnakes",
    "Rage", "Regret? Non!") deal with Phaidon....
     
  74. Claire de Rouen Books, Charing Cross, First Level, 125 Charing Cross Road, London WC2H 0EW.
     
  75. How does it compare to Z's?
     
  76. "Shame about Getty's very existence, and shame on Andrew if he's colluding with them"

    My shameful collusion with them extends as far as buying a Fox print from 1932, a Slim
    Aarons and a Thurston hopkins print. Is that shameful? Even if it is, would you be so kind
    as to stop tarring and feathering my front door? My wife has an allergy to your choice of
    feather.

    I am aware about Getty's sharp practice when it comes to working photographers and
    they're not on my Christmas card list.

    I've heard Mike Wells mentioned before but I gather he's not cheap. correct?

    My personal favourite photo bookshop in London used to be based on Upper Street,
    Islington. That was great. Sadly, it closed about 3 years ago.

    Back on topic. I spent some time looking at 'Early color' last night. The thought occurs that
    about 95% of the photos must have been taken with something like a 90mm or, possibly,
    even longer. I can't think of too many 'street' photgraphers who work like that.
     
  77. Sorry not to reply sooner Boris. (Got a bit busy in the last couple of hours)

    I have not been to Charing cross road for donkey's years so I cannot comment on Zwemmers/Claire De Rouen.

    I simply put her address in here to help anyone reading - who lives in London - to find it. (I live 75 miles away and only go into 'tahn' a couple of times a year.)

    I may well go there on my next visit though. Looks interesting.
     
  78. It is 07:43 here and I am waiting for postman with book.
     
  79. "Finally, maybe somebody can confirm the rumors of Mr Mancuso's trilogy ("Rattlesnakes",
    "Rage", "Regret? Non!") deal with Phaidon...."

    According to Variety, there's been a hitch with the movie rights. Something about the lead
    role not being tall enough. Check it out here

    http://www.variety.com/biz/balls/thedevilwearsdmr
     
  80. Andrew, I was thinking that (about him using a tele) looking at some of his web images. So if he was was using a Leica then maybe a 135mm or some sort of 'strap on' vizzy-flexi thingy. Not that I really care what he used to be honest.

    This certainly looks like a 90 or 135 was used (or a crop)

    http://www.nga.gov.au/SurfaceBeauty/IMAGES/LRG/27637.jpg
     
  81. Trevor, I agree that, most of the time, it's not rewarding to dwell on what camera/lens/
    hairgel was used. It's simply that, in this instance, Leiter used a long-ish lens nearly all of the
    time. At best, it's moderately intriguing.
     
  82. Personally, I wouldn't deal with getty on any level whatsoever - I believe Klein's on the
    record as saying that it's his aim to get the photographer split down to 10 per cent. And
    that's ten per cent of their already dismal lowballing rates. Photographers have whined for
    years
    about the impending death of their industry, but G might just achieve it.

    Mike Wells expensive? If you want a first edition of, say, Bill Owen's Suburbia then, yes,
    he's expensive. But routine secondhand sales are at fair rates, and he also
    normally has a good stock of remainders at giveaway prices. He's also happy to buy and
    trade. On more than one occasion I've arrived at his home with a couple of fairly rare titles
    and left half an hour later with a big bundle of other books and a check in my hand.

    Trevor, thanks for the de Rouen details, though I'm a little concerned that you don't seem
    to get out enough.
     
  83. "90mm or, possibly, even longer. I can't think of too many 'street' photgraphers who work
    like that."

    As you say it doesn't much matter, but some of the Klein NY work is taken with something
    longer than a fifty.
     
  84. Yes sorry. I should have said I am not bothered what brand of lens he used.

    I am not a 'good' Leica owner because I put a CV lens on mine and use a DSLR and enjoy photos regardless of what brand was used and think of selling mine sometimes to get a D200 with a Zeiss lens. I am very naughty.

    But yes, I am interested to know if he used teles or cropped.

    Boris, 'getting out' does not have to be to London to qualify as 'getting out'. There are other places.
     
  85. "There are other places"

    Agreed. NY, SF, LA, Paris, Tokyo, and Zamboanga.
     
  86. I might pop in tomorrow, I have to do the 7/7 memorial at kings x in the morning
     
  87. Andrew, regarding your casting comments, I know that both George Clooney and Benicio
    Del Toro (who would be my choice) are fighting hard for the role of the big man in "Rage".
    Depp thought he was in the frame for the entire trilogy, but the director, Jacques Rivette
    (chosen by the big guy himself because of his love for Celine and Julie Go Boating), felt he
    only had the physical stature for the teenage GM in "Rattlesnakes". The only certainty is
    Vincent Pastore in "Regret? Non!".
     
  88. Back to the book.

    'Early Color' arrived safely 30 mins ago. Small. (Had not read dimensions before buying) about 8x8. This is good. Adjusta-sleeve just fits with about 1mm to spare.

    Yes it is nicely printed. Still looking at the pics.

    One thing that jumps out is.. Hopper. I cannot help but feel Hopper must be an influence on Leiter in more than just a few of these pics.

    Lanesville, Paris 1959, Kutztown 1958, Phone call 1957 and some others.
     
  89. Boris, frankly I'm unhappy with the way the whole trilogy is panning out.

    Yes, I know the Big Man wants Rivette for his uncompromising adherence to Nouvelle
    Vague principles. However, only a Peckinpah or a Fuller could do justice to the bloody
    climax of "Rage" where our hero takes on six limp wristed Canon users in the main square
    of a sleepy Mexican town.

    Russell Crowe is, for me, the obvious choice but, truthfully, the role cries for a young Jean
    Gabin. Only he could portray the bleak, existential side of our protagonist's character.

    As for Lisa Minelli and the Pet Shop Boys doing the title song.....
     
  90. Claire de Rouen books is pretty good. A great atmosphere as I remember and intriguingly
    situated above a porn-book shop and added on to a gallery [Charing X Gallery - when I
    was there they had a Peter Blake exhibition on, so it is a serious place] (Unless this is false
    memory syndrome). I remember just wandering up to have a look at the gallery and
    stumbling upon the shop and thinking it was a real find - a treasure trove.

    She carries a lot of japanese books (I think her business partner, who started off as a
    customer, is a Japan afficionado) though her main specialty is fashion, so you will also find
    a lot of these. She counts many famous photographers among her clients I believe.

    Tate Modern bookshop, off the Turbine Room, also has a good selection of photography
    books.

    What I like at the Photog's Gallery is the Print Sales Room.

    Rx
     
  91. Oh - and in Paris, there is also a great shop on rue de colisee - just off Champs Elysees,
    called CONTACTS. I think it might be run by same people as the st sulpice one. I found a
    gorgeous Lartigue book there, huge hardback with hundreds of pictures that was almost too
    large to take back to London, for 30 euros. I had to take it to the desk to check the price was
    correct. Best photo book bargain I ever bought.

    RX
     
  92. London again - the bookshop on the river front under the Festival Hall (Books Etc maybe :?)
    has a pretty good photography section. Certainly worth stopping in if you are on the south
    bank, anyway.

    I'll stop now.
     
  93. "I cannot help but feel Hopper must be an influence on Leiter in more than just a few of
    these pics."

    Trevor, I can see why you think this but my inclination is to politely diasgree with you. I'd
    find it easier to explain if I could lay my hands on the Hopper book I've got somewhere
    but, I think that Leiter is more interested in abstraction.

    Hopper's paintings seem to be far more concerned with narrative and his technique is
    quite 'traditional'. I think Leiter's aproach is more playful and he is almost determinedly
    non-narrative. Having said that, I do realise that one can find a narrative in almost
    anything.

    If Leiter is inspired by painters then it's more likely to be the artists mentioned in the
    introduction: Willem de Kooning, Philip Guston and Mondrian. The latter, of course, gets a
    photo, by Leiter, named after him, "Mondrian Worker".

    It's at moments like this, I realise how bad I am at describing photographers' work.

    Let's have another film v digital discussion instead.....
     
  94. I can see where Trevor's coming from, but I'm inclined to agree with Andrew. The
    Hopperesque tag gets thrown around too much and too casually.

    Coming back to an earlier (superficially) glib comment I made regarding London being the
    only place in the UK, I just wanted to run this past you.....In some ways, if you're an
    outsider, London really can seem like the only place in the UK. At least the only place
    where you can feel relaxed, unthreatened, and not judged. In the late 90s I took some time
    off and travelled the length and breadth of the British Isles, and, at least at times, it was a
    disspiriting experience. If I'd been on my own I suspect it would have felt different, but my
    travelling partner and girlfriend (at the time) was both French and Black - characteristics
    which seemed to be a huge provocation to the average smalltown or rural Brit. We began
    at the Isle of Wight (which I took to be a name, but turned out to be a misspelt manifesto),
    then headed west to Cornwall where the locals seemed to think they were still auditioning
    for Straw Dogs. Then up to Wales where the traditional Celtic pub welcome of the
    thousand yard stare and racist muttering warmed our hearts. I'll not bore you with the
    details of the entire journey, but, overall, it didn't do a great deal to strengthen the
    Entente Cordiale. Maybe things are different now, maybe not, but for me London is one of
    the few places in the UK that seems connected to the outside world.

    My apologies for making a strange thread stranger.
     
  95. Boris, I left England in 91 and have never regretted it, even though I am neither French nor black. But my accent (which to most people would be upper class, although in reality it is simply that I have no regional accent because English is my second language) got me into trouble many times. In the end i just couldn't stand England anymore.
     
  96. If things were bad in the late '90s, I can't see them being any better now. Maybe visiting some
    of the major cities 'might' have presented you, and your then-girlfriend, with a more positive
    view. I honestly couldn't say.

    The UK still has a problem. Given recent incidents in the rest of Eurpoe eg banana throwing
    in Spanish football grounds we are not alone in this.
     
  97. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    excellent thread, gents.
     
  98. Thanks for commenting Bob. Andrew, it wasn't unremittingly bleak, there were some
    chinks of light along the way (Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, the startling beauty of the
    north-west coast of Scotland, Belfast) and I'm well aware that mainland Europe has it's
    "issues". What makes the UK feel different is that there seems to be little
    acknowledgement of the levels of xenophobia. France, for example, has real problems
    with racism, but it's much more in the open - rather than masquerading as some weird
    folksy commonsense stance. Smalltown UK feels much more like Central and Eastern
    Europe in it's visceral fear of outsiders. I've been to a number of full-on conflict zones that
    feel way less threatening than Wales - and I'm not joking about this. I'd be interested in
    hearing Trevor's response.

    I promise after this thread I'll revert to my traditional role of making cheap and cruel jibes
    at the expense of fat PR photographers.
     
  99. "I was on a schoolboy rugby tour in the early 80's"

    At what age do you leave school in Australia? 37?
     
  100. Ah, yes. Little England. I feel considerably safer walking the streets of London now than I ever
    did, 30 years ago, going out on a Friday night in the sleepy Warwickshire village I hail from.

    Vicious, really vicious. This is a strange country. Having said that, I think Peter A's anecdote
    merely proves that rugby, the world over, is played by nutters who think maiming gives you
    extra points.
     
  101. Vicous? Course its vicous. It's the way it should be. Trick is dont talk, walk or dress like a
    nonce and always carry a spare bag of base.
     
  102. "I'd be interested in hearing Trevor's response."

    That there is racism in the UK?

    Why my response particularly Boris?
     
  103. "Why my response particularly Boris?"

    Because you were an integral part of an interesting thread, and I'm curious what you make
    of the experiences of both myself and Bob in your country. If you had a dumb track record
    here I wouldn't be remotely interested in your perspective, but if you don't want to
    comment then don't. Not sure why you're being defensive, I'm certainly not attacking you
    in any way.

    Just in case people imagine I'm being harsh on the Welsh, I'd like to quash one myth that
    some of my English friends are happy to propagate - the notion that if you enter a Welsh
    bar the locals will revert to Welsh in order to privately insult you. My experience is the
    reverse, on at least one occasion a group of people in a bar happily switched from Welsh
    to English so that the insults were loud and clear.
     
  104. "France, for example, has real problems with racism, but it's much more in the open -"

    I think it's only now in the open after the recent riots in the banlieus.

    For 15 years I photographed fashion shows in, amongst other places, Paris. Before a show
    starts two guys in overalls pull away the plastic sheeeting that protected the catwalk. The
    guys pulling away the plastic would inevitably be the only Asians in the room. I have lost
    count of the number of times some of the less charming members of the French photo
    agencies (is there any other kind?) would chant 'Avec nous, Les Pakus'.

    I don't think any of us get off lightly on this one.
     
  105. Sorry Boris. Thought I was going to be set up as your 'token' yokel because I had made it known I live outside London. Yes I admit I was being a bit defensive.

    OK I will respond. Of course there are racists in the UK. I live in a city that has a long maritime history and has drawn in minorities from many cultures and about 15,000 - 20,000 university students every year from all over the world.

    Sadly this has not made some of the inhabitants more open to varied cultural influences and there is a stubborn and unhealthy streak of thuggish racist ignorance that predominates because of unemployment, low income, bad educationional/life chances and sheer proud stupidity and is fuelled by the gutter press tabloids and television and the education system. I don't think it has much to do with 'Empire' any more. A lot of the racists are too thick to even know there ever WAS an empire.

    As for Cornwall and Wales (and especially the Isle of Wight!) you are not alone in your experiences. I regularly visit the Isle of Wight (it is only 5 miles away) and people there often display a particular home grown xenophobia and distrust of outsiders. My eldest daughter has been doing her 'teaching experience' (for a post grad teaching course) for 10 days in an IOW school and some of the kids were suprised that as a mainlander she did not have horns and a tail!

    There was a woman from a small farm in Exmoor, in her sixties, who recently 'emerged' into existence having been kept as a slave by her late father since she had been a small child. She had not gone to school or been allowed to ever venture beyond the farm. Not even local people knew of her existance. There is an old gent in Norfolk who has slept in the same bed in the same house every single night since he was born. He is 95 years old. Although they are unusual it does illustrate the insularity of some of these places.

    Expecting them to change is difficult when an 'outsider' means someone who may buy a local property for quarter of a million pounds as a weekend cottage and price another local young couple out of the village they were born in, forcing them to live in a damp council flat on a 'sink' estate 20 miles away. Many villages have become retirement communities for the rich as a result. Schools close, pubs and shops close and communities are lost.

    These pockets of parochialism exist everywhere but it is more and more unusual to find it. There are villages who demonise people from a village in the next valley let alone people from other countries and cultures.

    I don't want to go too far down this road of damning my own country, uniquely, for attitudes that exist everywhere (racism, xenophobia is sadly universal).

    Sorry again Boris for the tardiness of my response. I honestly thought you wanted me to be your 'yokel' and did not want that part.
     
  106. "I think it's only now in the open after the recent riots in the banlieus."

    It's not so recent, I remember being in Lyons in the early 90s and there being serious
    tensions then. Wasn't Kassovitz's La Haine (which is brilliantly done) released in the mid
    -90s?

    "I have lost count of the number of times some of the less charming members of the
    French photo agencies (is there any other kind?) would chant 'Avec nous, Les Pakus'."

    There are some really repugnant smalltime French press photographers, but they certainly
    have their counterparts in the Brit press. Where I think the UK and France differ is in the
    French tradition of debate. The anti-intellectualism of much of Brit society tends to go
    against dialogue.

    "I don't think any of us get off lightly on this one."

    I agree, though I think all of Europe still lags behind the US in the ultimate potential of
    transcending your race/class (and you're going to have to trust me on this - I could write
    all day on the deficiencies of American culture and politics). It would be almost
    unthinkable for a British/French equivalent of Colin Powell to have risen to the the top of
    their respective militaries.

    Broadly sticking to the theme, have you seen the latest Haneke movie?
     
  107. Trevor, I'm sorry. I have a nasty habit of shifting seamlessly from dumb to smart to dumb
    again. Sometimes I do it deliberately to disorientate people (I'm even worse in person),
    but that wasn't my intention here.
     
  108. It's a shame really - this thread was introducing me to some interesting photographers.It
    seems to have descended into a hate-fest.

    I am sure you will not agree Boris, but your opinions about "the Welsh" smell bad to me. I
    do not doubt that you say you had a bad experience there, but also don't really know the
    details. Maybe you just went into the wrong pubs. I met an Algerian once who told me that
    he did not like the French "because they generalised". I don't think he saw the irony. My
    father was Welsh. So was David Lloyd George and Nye Bevan and many hundreds of
    thousands of other people who are not as you say. It's rude and insulting to speak as you
    do and shows a lack of real thought.

    R
     
  109. Dumb as charged. Boris Y.
     
  110. It came out, on DVD, last week and I'm going to buy it. I read several interviews with the
    director when it was released in the UK and I was intrigued, to say the least. He referred to
    the incident in the late '50s or was in early '60s by the Seine. More post-colonial legacies
    coming back to haunt, he said the day after 7/7.

    Today's major cultural treat comes in the form of seeing the new Stoppard, 'Rock n' Roll',
    at the Royal Court. It sounds like a real return to form after the Utopia Trilogy which I
    thought was a bit turgid.

    Have to agree about the Brit press pack. There's one really nice guy I know who told me
    that he was used to get the piss taken out of him for trying cover some assignments with
    his M2 (back on topic). They thought he'd gone all 'arty farty' on them.

    Interestingly, I do know quite a few black Brit press photographers. I have yet to come
    across a French one, I'm sure they're out there.
     
  111. Have you seen Stoppards's Rock n Roll yet?

    The last Stoppard I saw was 'Arcadia'. (Felicity Kendal, Bill Nighy) Superb.
     
  112. "I was on a schoolboy rugby tour in the early 80's "

    Yes, I just picked up on that one. Peter is a year or two older than me (I am 46) so even if the tour was in 1980 Pete would have been at least 22.

    But I suppose a lifetime of rugby induced head injuries takes their toll.
     
  113. Can't even focus sometimes..../

    http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=12086884
     
  114. "The last Stoppard I saw was 'Arcadia'. (Felicity Kendal, Bill Nighy) Superb."

    I saw that production. wonderful. However, I still a headache trying to work out what
    'Jumpers' was all about.
     
  115. "It came out, on DVD, last week and I'm going to buy it. I read several interviews with the
    director when it was released in the UK and I was intrigued, to say the least. He referred to
    the incident in the late '50s or was in early '60s by the Seine. More post-colonial legacies
    coming back to haunt, he said the day after 7/7."

    For the sake of anybody who doesn't know what "it" is, it's a reference to the latest Michael
    Haneke film Hidden (Cache in France). The "incident" is the massacre of (up to) 200
    protesting Algerians in Paris in 61 during a police operation led by Maurice Papon, their
    bodies dumped in The Seine. The film is set in the present, but with flashbacks to the
    time. It's good, and well worth buying on dvd - if only because it effortlessly demolishes
    my earlier comments about French openness. It's also worth
    checking out his earlier film Code Unknown which makes use of a bundle of Luc Delahayes
    photographs.

    "Have to agree about the Brit press pack. There's one really nice guy I know who told me
    that he was used to get the piss taken out of him for trying cover some assignments with
    his M2 (back on topic). They thought he'd gone all 'arty farty' on them."

    What's depressing about the Britpack is that those who work for the broadsheets (with a
    few honorable exceptions) are every bit as boneheaded as their tabloid brethren.

    "I do know quite a few black Brit press photographers. I have yet to come across a French
    one"

    I only ever met one black Brit photographer, a lovely guy by the name of Ilkey Mehmet
    (from a black Turkish immigrant background) who for a while was a staff photographer for
    The Telegraph. I met him in Belfast in 88 and 89, but I was subsequently told he packed it
    in -
    largely due to the neanderthal tendencies of his colleagues. The closest I've ever got to
    laying out another photographer was a Brit broadsheet guy who thought he was
    enormously witty in referring to Ilkey as Inky Mehmet - I regret to this day not following
    up my verbal abuse with a physical attack. I've never come across a black French
    photographer, but I do know a very lovely black French photo editor....

    To Mr X, I'm sorry if I offended you with my "hatefest", but I genuinely found Wales to be a
    strangely hostile
    place (and I've been to a lot of supposedly hostile places). I guess it's going to be difficult
    to reassure you, but if I was serious about inciting hate crimes against the Welsh I'd
    probably choose a more incendiary place than this odd but (hopefully) intriguing thread.
    My comments are less the howlings of a bigot, and more the inane witterings of a man
    wading through a hundred gigs of RAW files in pursuit of a first edit. In my defense, I do
    have two very good Welsh friends who share a lot of my misgivings. Anyway, just to stop
    you feeling too righteous I'll add some other Welsh (utterly non) notables to your list - the
    Kinnock clan (who I had the misfortune to meet), greedy Euro parasites par excellence. Not
    so smug now.....
     
  116. Boris (if I may) - No great offence taken - I just object to the entire population seemingly
    being tarred with the same brush. It's only North Wales that's like that. [that was a joke ha ha]

    Robert
     
  117. Boris - presumably you mean "caché" - absolutely brilliant, answers none of its questions and forces the viewer to confront himself as much as its characters. Shame that Haneke's next project is a remake of Funny Games with Naomi Watts. Maybe he'll be able to turn it inside out in some way, but the idea does seem to pander to exactly what he has always targeted in his films - violence as spectacle. Well, its a step up for him careerwise, I suppose. Naomi Watts is the obvious choice for the fragile but strong, sexy but intelligent, etc etc victim.

    As to Wales - I lived near to Pontypool for a year in the late 80's - people would start speaking Welsh when you went into shops, you had to keep away from pubs at closing time, etc etc. Newport was famous for Saturday night stabbings. Maybe they're all lovely people when you get to know them, but that wasn't the impression I got at the time. It's also possible things have changed in the UK since I left. I'm glad my daughter is growing up in Italy.
     
  118. BTW - For anyone who hasn't seen it, Caché does not focus on the Paris riots - that is simply a historical note to the drama in the present. And the racist history is not central to the film in any way. More of a contextualisation - it mirrors in the public sphere the hidden or forgotten personal history that drives the film. Well, that's my take on it, anyway.

    Actually, I think Caché could just as well have been called Oublié.
     
  119. "Boris - presumably you mean "caché""

    Vicious. You sure you're not Welsh. Life's too short to learn accent keystroke combos.

    "Haneke's next project is a remake of Funny Games with Naomi Watts"

    Sounds interesting. Apparently it's a real feelgood movie. Two mysterious but kindly
    young men
    arrive at a country home, save the life of the family puppy, and leave a gift of a box of
    eggs.

    "As to Wales - I lived near to Pontypool for a year in the late 80's - people would start
    speaking Welsh when you went into shops, you had to keep away from pubs at closing
    time, etc etc. Newport was famous for Saturday night stabbings"

    Frankly Bob, I'm disappointed. More tedious and unfounded hate directed at a long
    subjugated
    and gentle group of people. Next you'll be bizarrely suggesting that Nick Griffin, leader of
    the avowedly racist British National Party, has left England for the more congenial
    atmosphere of rural Wales. Oh, err, hang on.....

    "Caché...a historical note to the drama in the present...the racist history is not
    central...More of a contextualisation - it mirrors in the public sphere the hidden or
    forgotten personal history that drives the film...Actually, I think Caché could just as well
    have been called Oublié."

    I'd love to see you quoting those lines at closing time in Pontypool.
     
  120. "Peter A Photo.net Patron Prolific Poster, jul 08, 2006; 10:49 a.m.
    Trev - I am fascianted by your calculations"

    Easy one Pete. It is from what you told us in one of those Leica Forum... "tell us about yourself" threads. You gave your age.
     
  121. Don't jump to conclusions Trevor, it could have been his IQ score.
     
  122. >>>
    "Boris - presumably you mean "caché""

    Vicious. You sure you're not Welsh. Life's too short to learn accent keystroke combos.

    >>>

    First off, my keyboard has all those accents already - more proof of what a stuck up ponce I am. But the truth is that i wrote that before I read - don't know how i skipped it - your own quotation of the name.

    BTW - have you seen Time of the Wolf? I was impressed, although the ending is strangely feelgood for Haneke. I wish the Glaciation Trilogy was available on DVD.

    You're right of course, I fully merit the wrath of the Welsh for being a pretentious poofter, there's no denying it. The good thing about living in Italy is that I can say such things in English and no-one understands - they just give me detailed instructions to the Colosseum.

    BTW Trevor - if you don't want to be Boris's yokel, would you consider being mine?
     
  123. No, I haven't seem The Time of the Wolf, but I did see the Piano Teacher which had me and
    my companion laughing out loud - which I'm guessing wasn't Haneke's intention.
    However, I liked the latest film enough to rewatch Code Unknown, and was surprized to
    find it a lot more satisfying the second time round. Changing tack a bit, I really
    recommend Wes Anderson's The Life Aquatic if you want a break from all the Euroangst.

    As to yokels, I find one just isn't enough anymore. I have an international troupe of them
    that I've collected over the years on my travels.
     
  124. To put an accent on ᠵse Alt and 160
     
  125. Haha! then find that PN software does not allow it.

    Wonderful
     
  126. I am guessing that this is because my keyboard is set to English UK rather than English US.

    I am interested in learning how you guys get the accented characters to resolve here in PN
     
  127. "I only ever met one black Brit photographer, a lovely guy by the name of Ilkey Mehmet
    (from a black Turkish immigrant background) who for a while was a staff photographer for
    The Telegraph. '

    I remember Ilkey from years ago. I haven't seen him in quite some time, which is no
    surprise if he's packed it all in. I recall he used to get a lot of racial abuse from a British
    photographer of Asian descent, someone else you've probably come across.

    I cover just a few shows at London Fashion Week and there are a number of black British
    photographers who regularly turn up. That's the only time I work along aside with press
    photographers.

    By the way, 'Rock 'N' Roll' at the Royal Court is sensational.
     
  128. "What's depressing about the Britpack is that those who work for the broadsheets (with a few
    honorable exceptions) are every bit as boneheaded as their tabloid brethren."

    Agree 100%. It's almost a code of honour for broadsheet snappers to be as oafish as their
    tabloid counterparts. When I first discovered this, many moons ago, I found it deeply
    depressing. Me being naive, I s'pose.
     
  129. "I remember Ilkey from years ago. I haven't seen him in quite some time, which is no
    surprise if he's packed it all in. I recall he used to get a lot of racial abuse from a British
    photographer of Asian descent, someone else you've probably come across."

    I never got to know many British press photographers when I was in the UK - the only Brits
    I was remotely friendly with were John Sturrock of Network and John Arthur (whatever
    happened to him?) who was doing a lot of work for Time in the late 80s. Most of the
    stories I was assigned to were longterm and didn't put me into contact with the pack
    (other than some late Thatcher era political stories). Besides, as an outsider you were
    totally invisible to them. But I think I did come across the guy you're referring to, though I
    guessed (possibly wrongly) that he was a Ugandan Asian - did he have a moustache and a
    dirty Barbour jacket? He was really mouthy and seemed permanently stationed at Downing
    Street. Anyway, I'm off to bed now. Nighty, night.
     
  130. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "Easy one Pete. It is from what you told us in one of those Leica Forum... "tell us about yourself" threads. You gave your age."

    IT dept is keeping a data base?
     
  131. "But I think I did come across the guy you're referring to, though I guessed (possibly wrongly)
    that he was a Ugandan Asian - did he have a moustache and a dirty Barbour jacket? He was
    really mouthy and seemed permanently stationed at Downing Street."

    Nope, not him.
     
  132. My response was to Eric~ and his reference to my 'database'.
     
  133. PN needs a chatroom (it used to have one). The way that some thread or other develops into a sort of informal chatroom - usually at weekends - indicates the demand.
     
  134. The chat room idea is a good one. It would be simple to set it up with skype chat or msn messenger. If anyone's interested, contact me off-forum for my skype or msn id.
     
  135. I have e-mailed you Bob
     
  136. I think you'll find the brit press pack quite different now. the BPPA (http://www.thebppa.com)
    are doing an excellent job
     
  137. And they have a link to your site on that page. Excellent site too. Thanks
     
  138. "I think you'll find the brit press pack quite different now"

    Even the Welsh ones?
     
  139. haha Im welsh y'know... And even Mr Touhig is a lovely man! (if you catch him on the right
    day)
     
  140. Is "Mr Touhig" a hungry looking, wiry, little guy with a deadpan wit who
    was in Afghanistan in 2003 for the
    evil Getty
    corporation? I thought he was superpessimistic because he feared he might die at any
    moment, now I discover it was simply because he had to go home to Wales......
     
  141. What happened to Sion? I haven't seen him or his byline for a long time. Is he still a
    photographer or has he joined the mass exodus out of the industry?
     
  142. Read his blog...

    http://sionphoto.blogs.com/

    Check his site...

    http://www.sionphoto.com/
     
  143. Thanks Trevor.
     
  144. Boris, isn't it about time you told us who _you_ are? You're obviously not the usual Sunday snapper.
     
  145. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    "Boris, isn't it about time you told us who _you_ are?"

    please don't, B. I prefer my imagination...
     
  146. I'm afraid that, if he told us, he'd have to kill us.
     
  147. I am Boris C Han, scourge of the Celtic fringe and notorious yokel trafficker.

    I know a lot of photographers because they act as my eyes and ears around the globe in
    my never ending search for naive and easily exploitable country folk. Top marks to Trevor
    for detecting my predatory edge, I'd had his thatched yurt under surveillance for a while
    but in the end concluded that he and his tribe were simply not compliant enough to be
    saleable. Oh, and I came across the intense Welshman in 2001 not 2003 - too much good
    living at the expense of others addles the brain.
     
  148. Boris was also one of the more colourful background artistes in the movie, 'Fame'. He's
    wearing the pink leotard, dancing on top of a yellow cab next to Guy, when the kids' crazy
    exuberance gets the better of them (again!) and they pour into the streets throwing their
    limbs around with gay abandon.

    Great scene.
     
  149. well, actually, I do want to know who Boris is.....so, tell away
     
  150. Leiter's work was done, considerably, earlier in the '50s and I think his praises should be sung too. End of rant.

    Why? what has the time factor got to do with anything.Are folks from a earlier time lesser beings....perhaps they have smaller brains.....is it a evolution thing or something?

    His work seems pretty mundane to me.....is his he famous, should i worship?
     
  151. No.

    But I like his photos
     
  152. boris c han , jul 08, 2006; 01:35 p.m.
    Don't jump to conclusions Trevor, it could have been his IQ score.

    My my not very kind, Boris. Seeing that he could buy and sell most folks on this forum......

    Perhaps he's got a IQ of common sense sadly lacking in this forum,don't you think.
     
  153. "Why? what has the time factor got to do with anything.Are folks from a earlier time lesser
    beings....perhaps they have smaller brains.....is it a evolution thing or something?

    His work seems pretty mundane to me.....is his he famous, should i worship?"

    If you thought that I was inferring that people from an earlier age were lesser beings I
    wouldn't bother worshipping anything. I think you just need a few in lessons in basic
    English comprehension.
     
  154. But I like his photos

    Every one to their own,and to their own,everyone.

    Just made that up....
     
  155. I wouldn't bother worshipping anything

    Why what do you worship? I'm always up for a good sing song...
     
  156. Um, er, I've just had two beltingly strong gin & tonics so this won't be easy.

    How 'bout Evelyn Hofer, Thurston Hopkins, Robert Doisneau, Roger Maynes, Lartigue, Jakob
    Tuggener and, of course, Saul Leiter's 'Early Color'?
     
  157. Hey! I've just realised that you brought the word 'worship', not me.

    Worship is far too strong a term, I'm sure we're agreed on that?
     
  158. Thought this thread had it's wheels shot off long ago but it still keeps rolling along.
     
  159. How 'bout Evelyn Hofer, Thurston Hopkins, Robert Doisneau, Roger Maynes, Lartigue, Jakob Tuggener and, of course, Saul Leiter's 'Early Color'?

    To be honest,Andrew, i'm a bit of a ignoramus, not like yourself. I'll have a look at all of them and tell you what i think.

    To be honest, i thought you were going to invite to a sing song, you being into worship and all that.

    I've got a rather nice Tenor voice.
     
  160. Allen, we're not going down that route. Life's far too short for such cheap point scoring. As I
    said before, you're the one who brought up the term 'worship', no one else.

    The photgraphers I mentioned are snappers I happen to think are pretty interesting. Full
    stop. You may derive some pleasure from looking at their work, you may not. That's all there
    is.

    Now, I could tell you the secret of the world's best gin & tonic......
     
  161. Trevor,

    You've owned the book for a couple of weeks, at least, now. Still like it? For 23 odd quid, on
    Amazon, I think it's great.

    I've got some friends who are trying to work out whether they can afford one of Leiter's prints
    from his exhibition in NY. I fear it's going to be silly money.
     
  162. You may derive some pleasure from looking at their work

    That well be the case,Andrew. Thanks for the names.

    I was just thinking,Trevor,and myself get together once a month for a bit of sing along. Sometimes Another(Robert Appleberry)Bob joins in when he is in the country.

    Hey, unless you have heard Roberts rendering of 'Those In Peril Of The Sea ' you have not lived...

    Give us a shout.
     
  163. I still like it. I am also thinking of buying "Black country" by Richard Billingham. But I may be buying it for the wrong reasons.
     
  164. Allen, it is with a heavy heart that I must confess that I have an awful singing voice.

    I wished it wasn't the case but there you go. Nevertheless, I'd be happy to join in ( my voice
    can be VERY loud) with one of your singalongs. However, I haven't put a roll of film through
    my M3 in months. Am I still invited?

    I could sing "There is a green hill, far far away (in Primrose Hill)".
     
  165. "But I may be buying it for the wrong reasons"

    ??? You've got 'Ray's a laugh' and you like it. You like his video work. What are the wrong
    reasons?

    Interesting.
     
  166. I must confess that I have an awful singing voice.

    Sorry, Robert would not be happy.
     
  167. Fair enough. Now, get on with the homework I've set you.
     
  168. The phone has just rung. David Attenborough wants his leg back.
     
  169. "But I may be buying it for the wrong reasons."

    Trevor, you're not a Brummy?

    Up the Villa!
     
  170. Not a Brummy. I live in Hampshire.
     
  171. Aha.

    'Tis a terrible curse to be born a Brummy. I'm blighted 'til the day I peg it.
     
  172. AND, if you can work out what being a Brummy has to do with Saul Leiter, you win tonight's
    prize of a recording session with Allen Herbert! (Those under 18 must obtain parental
    consent and clean socks)
     

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