Ron Wisner is unreliable and unethical

I am curious to know how many owners of Wisner cameras are fed up

with Ron Wisner's antics. He has had my camera for almost 2 months.

He originally told me that it would take a week to 10 days and the

repair was simple. 3 weeks ago he told me the camera was done but

not shipped. In the last 2.5 weeks he has told me at least 5 times

that the camera was shipped, he promises to call back in a few hours

with the specifics yet never does call back with the specifics of the

supposed shipping. Can anyone out there give me any insight as to

why Ron Wisner is so darned dishonest. Because at the root of all

this is the fact that he is dishonest. Clearly he is thoughtless and

irresponsible or this behavior would not occur. I know I am not the

first person to have problems. Can anyone tell me how he stays in

business given his irresponsible and dishonest behavior.

I am laughing .... a lot because if you had checked threads going back YEARS here and on

the largeformat forum you would have seen many dealing with Ron's inability to deliver

what he promises. He is neither dishonest nor unethical IMO but he doesn't know how to

say and thus totally overbooks the capacity of his shop. My own experience was 4-5 years

ago when it took him nearly 18 months to deliver a reducing back promised in three

weeks.

 

He really is a decent guy but not very good telling people what they don't want to hear;

e.g. "due to our current backlog you camera will take at least three months." He stays in

business because he builds decent cameras that also make nice mantle decorations.

Lyle asked: "Can anyone tell me how he stays in business given his irresponsible and dishonest behavior."

 

The answer is simple: People keep buying his equipment and his repair services. He makes enough money to stay in business.

 

There is plenty of information on the web about all of the large format manufacturers, including their strengths and weaknesses. Apparently enough people find that the strengths of Ron's products and services outweigh the weaknesses...either that, or people just don't do proper research before they buy. Either way, Ron's business seems to be flourishing. I hate that you're suffering the frustration you're going through right now, as I can imagine how upset I'd be if the manufacturer of my camera left me feeling like that.

Dear Jeff,

I wonder if you think omission is dishonest? I would not accuse you of that, however according to your letter your camera was sent for a simple rod straightening, which we did. It took some time to get to it because we are always very busy. What you did not tell us in your letter was that the tilt plates on both sides were bent, that the closer latches were both bent, that the rack had become separated from the tilt plate on the right hand side, that the side plate (the main brass plate on the bed) was bent, all of which I can only assume came from a fall, and all of which we have fixed. I delegate these repairs to my very competent head assembler who kept coming back to me with additional problems with your camera. Obviously it was not prudent to leave any of the defects un-addressed.

I am sorry it took as long as it did, but when you called me in the middle of December we, like most businesses, were in the middle of our Christmas rush. You will have your camera in your hands early next week.

I believe there has been some confusion on my part. We have two customers whose cameras are both here for repairs: Jeff Lepore and Lyle Laporte. I believe I have mixed them up. I have given Lyle my cell phone number and asked him to call me. If I have confused the two cameras then the fault is indeed mine and I owe Lyle an apology.

 

Ron Wisner

Ron .... well handled!

The above exchanges focus on the neverending truth that there are always two sides to every story, I never dealt with Ron Wisner, but it seems to me from reading about these travails over the years that he is no con man, by the same token, it seems he needs the business end taken over by a business manager while he just makes cameras.

 

When a deal doesn't go right, the bad taste in your mouth lingers way beyond the deal, which is what I hate about somebody taking my money and giving me less than what I expected.

 

I negotiated with a gentleman to buy a polaroid 4x5 conversion, for a lot less than a Littman, we agreed on his price, I thought it was a great price, I repeatedly asked him about the condition of the camera that would be used in the conversion since I was not supplying him w/a camera, and I didn't really get a straight answer, going on the pictures of his previous conversions it looked as if he was a reputable guy that would supply me a camera in great condition.

 

I sent him the agreed on price, I eventually got the camera, and the camera part of the conversion was dry and 'squeaky', the camera baseboard was ugly, the camera would 'hang up' halfway as you tried to close it, where you'd have to pull up on the struts to finish closure.

 

The conversion works as the lens is in decent condition, but the camera is 'beat-up', the workmanship of the conversion is acceptable mechanically but cosmetically ugly, specifally he didn't countersink deep enough so he has screws sticking out where they shouldn't, the hinges that secure the back where they're fastened to the camera, look 'raggedy',..................so what I'm left with is a camera that technically works, but which I won't be able to sell, and even if I do, I'm still without an alternative but the Littman which I don't want to pay for.

 

I didn't get what I expected, I wasn't told upfront what I would be getting, in terms of the cameras condition and I asked. I would've appreciated the use of a better camera in the conversion, and better workmanship in the conversion itself, and can't understand why a brother photographer(he participates on these forums) would do this.

 

If you're thinking about buying a camera from him, INSIST on an accounting of the exact condition of the camera he will use in the conversion if he's supplying it.

I agree with Ted. I, too, had to wait much longer than expected for a service years ago with Ron. However, if I ever buy a 5x7 or another 8x10 camera, it would be another Wisner. Ron stays in business by making a very fine product.

For the record,

I really enjoy using my Wisner camera.(14x17 Traditional) When I had a

small problem, he did a very nice job fixing it.

Well handled? First his response to a complaint by Lyle Laporte begins with "Dear Jeff." Then when he realizes Jeff and Lyle are two different people he gives no explanation of what the problem is with Lyle's repair and just tells Lyle to call him, which it sounds like Lyle has been doing a lot of already with no results. So how was that "well handled?"

 

A poor businesman might innocently claim something will be delivered in a week or a month and then take much longer to deliver it. That's just bad business practice. But telling somebody at least five times that something has been shipped when it hasn't been shipped isn't just poor business practice, it's obviously dishonest. Whether that's actually what happened here I don't know but that's what Lyle says has happened and Mr. Wisner hasn't denied it so at this point I'd assume Lyle is correct.

"If I ever buy a 5x7 or another 8x10 camera, it would be another Wisner"

 

Some people just love to punish themselves. There's other fish in the sea.

 

You could put your money in a good fund, and in the 5 years time it takes Wisner to come up with your 8x10, you could have enough money to get yourself an Ebony.

Lyle

 

This is a public forum. I hope you understand what the words libel and slander mean.

 

Kevin

Ya man, just to cover yourself, gotta stick to the facts, and let others read between the lines.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AcEq

 

http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/415688.html

 

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/497920.html

 

http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/498378.html

 

and so on and so on

It is interesting that no one has ever posted that they have had to take their Canham, Phillips, Wista, Tachihara, Lotus, Ebony or even the cheapie Shen Hao to an aftermarket repairman/machinist to get it to work as it was supposed to from the maker.

Anyone that is even modestly into Large Format reads these forums because they contain hard facts and experiences from real people. Do you not believe what you hear? The long legacy of disappointments from customers about this camera maker goes back for as long as I can remember and is at least consistent. I am a small business owner and if I attempted to justify my inability to meet customer expectations for whatever reason (legitimate or not) for promises not kept, I would be out of business so fast it would make your head spin. I made the same observations at least five years ago and the diatribe appears to have been a copy/paste from way back. I am busy, I am a good guy, not my fault etc. etc. etc.

 

Lyle, you are not going to like to hear this, but you are part of the problem because you knew better and you got what you deserved. Sometimes a slap of reality about the situation is hard to take and you got schooled and class is not over by any stretch of the imagination. Until enough of you knuckleheads get it figured out it will continue to be business in a vacuum day in and day out.

 

As Dan mentioned, no other camera maker has engendered as much polarity among honest people that just want to make LF images. People like Keith Canham and Dick Phillips make me feel good about the future of this marvelous medium. No excuses, delays, rants, ego. You can count on their word because it is as good as money on the bank.

 

If I need my Wisner 11x14 repaired or any reason, it would go to Richard Ritter or any number of other qualified repairmen.

 

Cheers!

This may be of interest. If you are looking for a new high-end LF camera, consider Gandolfi:

http://www.gandolficameras.com/

I have not yet bought a new camera from this company, which is a legend in the British LF market and is presently owned by Edward Hill, but I have sent 3 members of my LF family to Ed for repair and found him approachable and reliable.

I'll second Big Dave, with one amendment. Gandolfis are not high end -- they're top end! If I could afford it, my dream LF camera would be a Gandolfi 5x7 on a whole-plate chassis. The standard of finish is unparalleled; they will repair/refurbish/modernize any camera they have ever made (they've been in business about 120 years); and Eddie is an exceptionally nice guy.

 

By the time you're in this realm, it's no longer a question of specifications -- most good cameras will do all they need, be they Wisner or anyone else -- but design philosophy. You might prefer a Canham, another excellent camera, well made by a very nice guy, but it's just different from a Gandolfi rather than better or worse. Likewise a Walker -- check Mike Walker's web-site at www.walkercameras.com.

 

Oh: and I'd second the warnings about libel. The main reason for Ron NOT to sue is that it's too much hassle; I strongly suspect he'd win, and I have a law degree. Complaining about bad service is one thing, and from Ron's own post it sounds like an unfortunate error, but even a disastrous honest mistake does not justify calling someone dishonest or probably even unethical, though 'unreliable' would rarely give grounds for action. I know Ron, though not well, and I'd be astonished if he were knowingly dishonest or unethical.

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

Buy a camera from a manufacturer with a solid track record for both service and quality. I have owned two Ebony Cameras and have NEVER had a single problem with them. Whenever I have a question, I email the manufacturer and receive an email back within 24 hours.

"I hope you understand what the words libel and slander mean."

 

Those of us who have been to law school do... and many who have not understand them as well. Truth is the defense.

 

Sure would be an interesting case if it wasn't thrown out quickly. Imagine the list of witnesses on the 'character' issue alone? Then when the records were subpoened & opened in court it would get more interesting still.

Dear Daniel,

 

Have you the same saying in US law schools as in the UK,

 

"The greater the truth, the greater the libel"?

 

Not that I think there's any truth in the assertion that Ron is dishonest.

 

Cheers,

 

Roger W. Hicks, LL.B., F.R.S.A. (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Ron is an artist, an artisan and a perfectionist. I consider him a friend, and have commented before on his behalf on some of these threads. I have been to Ron's factory, and yes, it is very busy. Quality is sine qua non for him, and he assumes his customers demand and expect nothing less. For those of us who know him, he is NOT dishonest or unethical; perhaps at times stretched and working at over capacity. He cares deeply about his clients and their success with his cameras. I bought my 8x10 Wisner Technical Field camera from Ron while living and working in Japan, without speaking the language and therefore, unable to communicate with local LF photographers. As a result, I was self-taught, but with lots of free and willing advice from Ron via telephone. I have seen him do this for many of his customers. I would agree that at times he is stretched thin; but please don't mistake that for a lack of ethics or honesty; he is genuinely committed to his clients, his cameras, and to quality second to none.

And every time I went to Houston and had business meetings with Enron, Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling also had fabulous personal monikers affixed to them by all of their employees and many other Houstonians that benefitted from their presence in the area. Those that attempted to point out some of the problems with their take no prisoners business model were scoffed at as trouble makers and narrow minded or being just to negative and/or having a personal agenda/jealous. Then then found a reason to open up the books and we saw what was really going on. And beneath the supposed placid surface was crooked corporate history taken to a new level.

 

You have to really work at it to get that many good LF folks to use this and other LF venues to vent their frustrations about this company for the same reason - bad customer service. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

Fortunately we have options. Consider them carefully and make informed and intelligent decisions and do not think that you are immune from the numbers.

 

Cheers!

My buddy Jeff bought a 20x24 from Ron Wisner.

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Ron at Jeff's studio. Ron appears to be an honest fine gentleman who is genuinely concerned and means well.

 

Jeff's camera required 4-6 months of prodding to get Ron into the studio, but the fact remains that in the end, Jeff is happy with the camera. The quality and build are excellent.

 

I still like my Ebony though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15248&item=3864445431&rd=1

 

This will give you a nice commentary on what too often has to be done to make the Wisner camera work properly.