Refund for Photography?

<p>Hello everyone,<br>

I'm posting here as a newlywed bride, not a photographer ... I hope that's okay. I just have been lurking around and noticed that some of you have great insight into these topics - and I need a "professional photographer" point of view, if possible.<br>

We were married less than 3 months ago. We decided to get married in a different city from where we live ... we hired a wedding planner to book all the stuff that needed to be local there - kind of treating it as a "destination" wedding of sorts. She booked the location, ceremony officiant, flowers and photographer. Everything else was up to us - just as I wanted it, as my career deals with event planning and I know what I'm doing when coordinating schedules and getting vendors in line.<br /><br />The day went off without a hitch. Everything was as it should be - except that the wedding planner did not even come to our wedding. She just never bothered to show up. We were told she only goes to her "big" weddings. We were a little put off but set that aside - our issues started with the photography. I told the photographer that I did not like "traditional" wedding photos. We are a non-traditional couple and didn't want all the usual poses. Not too much to ask, I thought. Although this was expressed to the photographer as soon as I got to the ceremony site, he insisted on putting us into various poses for our entire session with him. I was disappointed - but I knew that he had taken at least some pictures where he was trying to catch us being natural.<br /><br />Fast forward to a month after the wedding, we received our wedding photos in the mail (after much arguing with the wedding planner who insisted that her fees did not include shipping the photos to us). We were incredibly displeased immediately. We got a cheap vinyl album with 37 pictures (our contract only called for 30 so this was a surprise) and only about 7 of those are worth anything - the rest are all terrible. People are blinking, people are making wierd faces, and then there are the posed photos I specifically asked to not have done - where we look unnatural and fake and uncomfortable. They provided a disc of photos - so I was relieved that I would then be able to pick different photos that I could reprint. Well, no - the disc had the 37 photos they printed and that's it. The album is one of those that you can buy at any WalMart or the photo department of your local grocery chain ... it has the plastic pages that you insert photos into and lines beside each plastic cover so you can write what it's a picture of.<br /><br />I emailed the photographer within two days and asked him if it would be possible to at least view the other photos, and to purchase a disc with them on it. He emailed me back right away, telling me that if there were other pictures, we would have been notified and since we weren't notified, there were no others. This was difficult for me to believe - there were no other pictures? I remember others being taken that weren't part of our 37! He also (rudely) suggested I ask our friends who attended to give me their copies. He called them our "other photographers". So I emailed again, being a little more precise. I reminded him that he sent our family and friends away so he could be alone and take pics of us - just him. Those were the pictures I was paying him for and wanted. Was there any way I could pay him for those photos? No reply. Two weeks later, I gently reminded him of the email. No reply. Two weeks later again (a month after my email) and I gently reminded him again. His one-sentence response the same day was "I am not able to help you". <br /><br />I decided to email the wedding planner. She is the one who insisted we hire this photographer (after I told her months before the wedding that I was going to book someone myself) and told us that he was giving her a great rate as a favour so we should stick with him. So in my email to her, I reminded her that she pushed this guy on me and now he was being curt and borderline rude with me when all I was doing was trying to figure out how I could get my hands on the rest of my photos. <br /><br />She emailed me back the next day and told me that they provided a photographer, they went above and beyond the contract by giving us 37 pictures instead of 30 ... and that the photographer cannot give us more photos. <br /><br />I was upset - and my husband doesn't like to see me upset - so he called the wedding planner when he got home and she started yelling at him and told him the following:</p>

<p >* there are no other wedding photos - he has deleted them all because of how bad they are <br />* we had no chemistry in our photos and were not working with the photographer to get good photos (although during the photography, he told us not to worry and that if he didn't get the shot, he'd keep taking pics until he got it) <br />* this was not the photographer's fault but ours (all the shots were bad, she said, but that was apparently because we were unphotographable) <br />* the photographer struggled to get those 37 out of the "terrible" photos we had (again, during the session, he told us that we had "at least 40 good pics") <br />* we obviously have "issues" in our relationship and are uncomfortable being around each other <br />* we're broke <br />* we are "low-end" clients<br />* she doesn't have to deal with us anymore because we are no longer her customers ("Thank GOD," she said) <br />* if we call or email her any further, she will have the cops called for harrassment <br /><br />My husband was <b>shaking</b> when I got home because he's never been spoken to this way. He did not once raise his voice but she was screaming at him the whole time, hung up on him twice and he kept saying "What are you talking about?" when he could get a word in edge-wise. <br /><br />I have discovered today in my Google searching that she and this photographer are married. Nowhere in my many emails through planning and the post-wedding discussions did either of them ever indicate this (major) detail. It's becoming clear to me that she was likely upset that I had admonished her husband (who I thought was just a vendor at the time) when I asked for her help in dealing with him.<br /><br />So there it is - and now here I am, at a complete loss for what to do. I would like nothing more than to forget I ever had to deal with this woman and her photographer husband. But I feel like I deserve some kind of refund or compensation for the way I'm being treated. Am I wrong?<br /><br />I need some kind of help, I think. I am at the point now where I need to redo my wedding photos - I cannot look back fondly on my wedding day through my pictures and I certainly cannot pass these crappy pictures onto future generations in our family. Technically, they met the terms of the incredibly vague contract we had with them - but where is the customer service? Can any of you give me advice on how to approach this with the planner / photographer? Opinions? A virtual shoulder to cry on?</p>

<p >Thanks so much in advance ...</p>

<p >~S~</p>

<p>Wow! Wish I could help, this sounds awful. And only 37 photos? Even for my shortest 1 hour weddings I usually give the couple at least 150. How long was he there shooting?</p>

<p>Wow. That so-called wedding planner may be confusing the word "customer" with the word "victim."<br /><br />You don't mention what you paid, at least for the photographic part of the services, so it's a little harder to get a sense of just where the Outrage-O-Meter should be pointing, and how/whether to proceed.</p>

<p>Shelly -</p>

<p>Get out your contract with both the planner and the photographer... If they are one and the same - great.. if not, get both out. Read them very carefully...look for limits on liability and what they said they would deliver.</p>

<p>Send them both a certified letter stating your case for a refund - either full or partial. State in the letter that you are seeking a refund for x amount. Get and keep all e-mails from them both. Don't delete or destory anything they have sent you.</p>

<p>Next - find out the rules for small claims court in their state (assuming it's different then your state). </p>

<p>Finally if they do not respond - decide if it's worth it to pursue in small claims court. </p>

<p>Personally - I have never heard of such unprofessional and borderline unethical behavior. At a minimum - you should have been informed of the relationship between the two of them and been able to see samples of his work before you booked him.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Do you have a copy of your contract? Maybe you could post it up here. They sound like total scam artists! What a bummer! :( :(</p>

<p>Where do you live? Maybe you could contact a photographer in the area to do a bride and groom session with you and your new husband? You could get all dressed up again and do some fun, casual shots. I know it's not the same as wedding day photos, but at least you'd have something to keep and look back on.</p>

<p>Hope it all gets worked out for you!</p>

<p>[[so it's a little harder to get a sense of just where the Outrage-O-Meter should be pointing]]</p>

<p>Given the treatment, the results, and pretty much everything else mentioned here, if they paid anything over $10 the meter should be pegged.</p>

 

<p>Good advice from David!</p>

<p>My apologies for not including those details - I wanted to try to keep it brief.<br>

The cost thing is hard to break down - it was a "package" for the wedding planner that included photography. I can tell you from looking through old emails with her that photography was considered an "add-on" to her basic package and started at $250. I'm going to go with that.<br>

The photographer was there for 2 hours. We were roughly 30 minutes late getting started (husband didn't follow my timeline!) so he had 90 minutes of shooting before we hopped in the limo to head to dinner. I estimate that he probably took 150-200 pictures because he was constantly snapping in our wedding video!<br>

The contract with the wedding planner was for them to provide a photographer and to give us an album with 30 pictures as well as a disc with images. By definition, they met the terms of their contract ... but they could have given us 30 pictures of our feet and met the contract so where does the customer satisfaction come in?<br>

One more minor detail (and this raises the Outrage-O-Meter in my opinion, in light of finding out now that these two are married) - the planner called me while I was on my way to the location where I was getting dressed for the ceremony - and told me that I was expected to tip the photographer as well. So he also was tipped for this service in addition to the money they made on "wedding planning" and "photography" with their package.</p>

<p>Wow, I'm speechless. First of all: Congratulations on your marriage and please don't take anything this "wedding planner" said to your husband to heart. I'm so sorry that this happened to you guys. If she booked the photographer, then you don't have any legal remedies against him but rather against her since he has a contract with her and not with you directly.<br>

There's no excuse for her behaviour, lack of manners, lack of respect and lack of professionalism. Absolutely none. The only thing I can think of that the photographer is a personal friend of hers. [added: I just read that they're married so that explains it, she's sticking up for him now and pushed him onto you because he's most likely working for free) The "I've deleted the rest of the files" is a cheap excuse. Since you offered to buy additional files from him, I'm sure he would have gladly sold them to you <strong><em>if</em> </strong> they had been any good. Since even money can't buy more files, I'm assuming they are even more terrible than what you've seen so far and he simply doesn't want to release anything that would make him look any worse. This then leads me to believe that he isn't a professional wedding photographer. Have you been able to locate his website, his information on PPA (if you're in the USA) or anything that would indicate that he is anything but a husband helping her cheat her clients?<br>

Since I'm no legal expert and it sounds like they're running some sort of scam, I would read through your vague contract carefully, see what was agreed upon, consult an attorney, report her to the BBB, review her wherever she is listed and see if you can get a refund. From what I hear, Small Claims Courts should be sympathetic to this one and the filing fee would be worth it to me.<br>

If you're anywhere near Vermont, I'd be more than happy to volunteer my services as a photographer so you can have photos to pass on to future generations that actually meet/exceed your expectations.</p>

<p>First off, I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. That sounds flat-out insane. What a story.</p>

<p>However, just as an <strong>ADMIN</strong> note, please do not use this forum to "out" the photographer or planner by name here. While we are happy to advise you and give support over the issue, Photo.net is not a wedding provider review site and has no interest getting in the middle of that sort of thing.</p>

<p>

<p >Here is the one-liner from the outline of services she was including with the package:</p>

<p >§ Photography, 30 - digital photos, all 4 x 6 photos in a presentation album, unmarked CD with images (ceremony and formal photos)</p>

<p >And here is the contract:</p>

<p > </p>

<p >"It is the intention of both <em>wedding planner </em>and the client to work together on the planning of the event. The consultant's role is that initially of an advisor. The client will make the actual selections and the consultant will implement those selections.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Any cost estimate is designed to give you a starting point in the financial planning of your wedding. The estimated cost for each item is derived from either actual quotes from the vendor, consultant's professional experience or both.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >All vendors accepted by the client shall be liable for their own business practices. The consultant will do everything reasonable to assure that any vendor referred and accepted by the client is reputable and reliable. If a specific vendor cannot perform, the consultant under this agreement will make an effort to find a satisfactory substitute as directed by the client or in the consultant's best judgment.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >The Client, by signing this agreement agrees to hold harmless the consultant for any error, non-performance, or change made by a vendor. In event of litigation regarding this agreement, the prevailing party shall be entitled to reasonable attorney's fees.</p>

<p >The consultant has explained all services, fees and policies. This contract may be cancelled in writing for any reason. If cancellation occurs 30 days or less before the wedding, refunds are limited to any funds in excess of non-refundable deposits and out of pocket expenses. Should the event cancel within two weeks (14 days) prior to the scheduled date, 100% of the package price will be charged."</p>

<p > </p>

 

<p >Vague, yes?</p>

 

<p > </p>

 

<p > </p>

 

<p > </p>

</p>

 

<p>You've been given some great advice by David Haas and I am glad to see you've already pulled out the contract and read it.</p>

<p>Everything that you've related to us that she's said sounds like excuses and not reasons (big difference). Small claims court may be your best option - you won't get more pictures but you should be able to recover your money. In many states, you can recover the filing costs for a small claims suit if you win.</p>

<p>Good luck, congratulations on the marriage, and on behalf of <em>real</em> professional wedding photographers, my sincere apologies that this happened to you!</p>

<p>May I ask where the wedding was and where you got married?</p>

<p>Shelly,</p>

<p>I am really sorry to hear this. I really don't understand the "30" photos limit. Never heard of such a thing. Like Eliza Beth, I don't think I've ever delivered fewer than 150+. </p>

<p>Had you seen examples of the photographer's work before you agreed to use him? Did you have a preliminary meeting with him before the wedding, where you talked about what you wanted? Sounds from your account like the answer to both questions is no. I think there is some burden on the bride to check out the photographer and be confident that he's talented and/or experienced enough to do the job you expect him to do - something he demonstrates by showing that he's done it before. If you didn't vet the guy, I'm afraid your current position is somewhat weaker than I would wish. If you did vet the guy and what he gave you matches pretty much what you saw, then it doesn't matter too much whether you asked him for something different.</p>

<p>I'm afraid that the photographer doesn't sound like he's experienced or, frankly, minimally competent. I suspect that you accepted the recommendation of the wedding planner and that was that. I don't mean to beat up on you! I understand the situation and might have done the same thing myself, indeed, I have done similar things. I too tend to be a trusting person. But I've gotten burned a couple times, too.</p>

<p>Like Matt Laur, I'm thinking the amount you paid might make a difference to what you do now. A photographer working for FREE should have done a much better job than this. But if you paid $100, well, you might not want to spend as much trouble trying to get it back as you would if you paid $1200.</p>

<p>David Haas's advice about how to pursue them legally seems exactly right.</p>

<p>You may have another remedy: build a web site telling the story of your experience with these guys and (of course) naming names. When we moved to Dallas from Houston six years ago, we hired a moving company that turned out to be just about as competent as your photographer. I picked them because their quote was way lower than the quotes from the reputable movers I talked to. (Yes, that should have been a big red flag to me.) Dealing with the movers we hired was, in a word, a nightmare - and it ended up costing more than twice what we had quoted. I built a web site telling our story in detail, as dispassionately as I could, and with scrupulous honesty. Within a day or two, I started getting email from other folks who had similar experiences with this outfit. And a week later, I got a call from a representative of the "company". Apparently the site had come to their attention and they realized they were losing business because of it. They sent me a refund for $1500 (about half of what I had paid them) and after the check cleared, I took down the site.</p>

<p>I don't RECOMMEND that course of action. I'm not completely sure that it's a safe thing to do, personally or legally. My wife is an attorney and she okayed what I did. And others have used the Web in the same way. I'm not sure but I think this may be part of the point of angieslist.com. Anyway, you'<strong>ll</strong> have to decide for yourself.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Will</p>

<p>"However, just as an <strong>ADMIN</strong> note, please do not use this forum to "out" the photographer or planner by name here. While we are happy to advise you and give support over the issue, Photo.net is not a wedding provider review site and has no interest getting in the middle of that sort of thing."<br>

<br />Thanks, Josh - there is no way I'd out them on here - as much as I'd like to shout their names from the rooftops to any and all getting married in their area, I know better than that. :)<br>

And thanks to Katrin for the offer - we live in Canada and although we'd love a trip to Vermont, I'm sure I can't justify the trip to my husband. :D<br>

Rob - we live in a small city outside of Toronto and got married in Niagara Falls.</p>

<p>"Had you seen examples of the photographer's work before you agreed to use him? Did you have a preliminary meeting with him before the wedding, where you talked about what you wanted? Sounds from your account like the answer to both questions is no. I think there is some burden on the bride to check out the photographer and be confident that he's talented and/or experienced enough to do the job you expect him to do - something he demonstrates by showing that he's done it before. If you didn't vet the guy, I'm afraid your current position is somewhat weaker than I would wish. If you did vet the guy and what he gave you matches pretty much what you saw, then it doesn't matter too much whether you asked him for something different."<br>

<br />Thanks Will for all your comments. I'm sorry to hear about your move! :)<br />To your comment that I copied above, yes - the answer is no. We went on faith with the planner that she knew the best vendors having been in this business in that area for so many years - and she did not disclose any of our vendors before the wedding day at all. Red flag? Absolutely! But I suppose hindsight is 20/20. :(</p>

<blockquote>

<p>All vendors accepted by the client shall be liable for their own business practices.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not that I am a lawyer, but that line in your contract sounds very dubious to me. Shelley - the important thing to know in your own mind is what outcome you now want to achieve, and what lengths you're prepared to go to to get it. You may have a legal remedy if the pictures are sub-par (you *certainly* would here in the UK where such a 'contract' would be torn to shreds by a court) if you're prepared to pursue it. My girlfriend is a Toronto-based lawyer, and I will ask her if she has a short suggestion for what you might do next.</p>

<p>Shelley:</p>

<p>I'm not sure pursuing this will be worth your time.</p>

<p>From the sounds of it, the photographer has fulfilled his contract. I think you'd go through a lot of potential headaches just to get $250 back, at most. And since you have 37 pictures when the contract called for 30, I'm not sure what else a court would award you.</p>

<p>Sounds like neither the photographer nor the wedding planner should be dealing with people. That's about the nicest way I know of summing it up. :) I'm sorry you had to go through this mess and have your wedding memories tarnished.</p>

<p>As difficult as it would be, I'd try to forget about it and move on. I find myself happier if I'm spending my energy on positive items rather than dwelling on something that is unlikely to be changed and requires lots of negative emotions. Take what you can learn from it, and move on.</p>

<p>Eric</p>

<p>I like the idea of re-staging photos. It happens in cases of illness, bad weather, etc.<br>

I got a job once where I had to re-do/undo another photographer's mess. Always go with your instincts, i.e. you thought inside you should hire your own. It might be possible to assist you with photoshopping what you have to make them better, but the attitudes involved are inexcusable. If they don't want $250 clients, they shouldn't offer that price. 37 photos? I take that in a few minutes!</p>

<p>Well the best advice I can give you is to look forward and try to forget about what happened. Upload the pictures you have to this site and we'll try to edit and fix them. Then I suggest hiring a Professional photographer to do a "rock the dress" photoshoot and get amazing photos then! It's hard I know to forgive and move on, but the only alternative is to fight the photographer but that's not going to get you more pictures :(</p>

<p>It's too bad you got such a bad experience on what should have been a great time. David has some good advise but you have to determine if it will be worth your time (or you can just go after them in principle.)<br>

While the planner is clearly terrible, I would say the problem really lies with the photographer. Although if the contract is with the planner it gets a lot more messy as you would have to go after them (and you don't know if they took some money off the top and gave the photographer less).<br>

In Ontario you can file a small claims suit against them. I don't know if the cost/time will be worth it if you if you are just looking for reimbursement. It costs $70 to file and then you have to go through the trouble to serve and go through proceedings. You would also need to file it in the Niagra area since that's where the business was performed so you would have to account that into if it's worth pursuing. Since they completed the contract (what's in writing) it would be doubtful they would give you back the full $250 and then it's all up to the judge. He doesn't sound like a professional though. The contract would have to be looked over closely to see the wording, etc... I would be happy to look it over for you - I am not a lawyer but since my contracts are structured and targeted towards those in the Toronto/Ontario area I may be able to give you an idea if it would be worth your while.<br>

Your best bet is to find a photographer you like in the Toronto and surrounding area and dress up again and do a fun and relaxed session. It's just like a bridal session except you are doing it after.<br>

Best of luck,</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Shelley, following up on what I said before; I spoke to my other half who is a Toronto lawyer, and based on my description of what you've said (so errors are likely to be from my misrepresenting you to her, and misunderstanding what she said):</p>

<p>If your contract is with the planner, and the agreement included photographs, you would have to proceed against the planner, not withstanding her disclaimer. If you could demonstrate to the court that the photographs were below a reasonable quality (the onus to do that would be on you) bearing in mind the price you paid, then you would have a good chance of getting either a full or partial refund of the photography.</p>

<p>You might also have a valid claim of negligence against the planner for recomending someone whom she knew (or should have known) was not competent to fufill the role. You would have to demonstrate that to be the case - are there complaints online from other brides, perhaps? I would be surprised if this was the first such situation.</p>

<p>The small claims court procedure would be your ultimate destination, but you should start with a letter setting out your case, and asking for whatever you think is reasonable. It's up to you, obviously, how much grief you want to give yourself, given the potential reward.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Thanks for posting this. I hope other future brides see more of this. While I'm very sorry this happened I also have to say you kind of get what you pay for. $250 should not set very high expectations but even those were not met. </p>

<p>Someone may have already mentioned this but there's just too much for me to read it all tonight. You mentioned he was contantly snapping away in the VIDEO. This may be the key to a solution. Try to contact the Videographer directly and see if you can arrange for him/her to provide stome nice still images from the video. Or, bring your video to a lab and see what they can gleen from it.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Hi Shelley!<br>

I'm usually more of a lurker, but I just had to comment! I'm in the GTA and work throughout Ontario, and my partner and I would love to offer you a free re-shoot .. a few hours and some fun locations .. I hate seeing such horrible experiences! Let me know if you're interested.<br>

Otherwise, out of curiousity, does this "planner" work only in Niagara Falls?<br>

Best of luck!</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Ok... I'm a newlywed myself, and we were married in a similar location to you; a popular place for "local" destination weddings. In my research, I was floored by what passed off as professional photography. It seemed like everybody and their brother who had camera was a professional. It was down-right scary. I was looking for a package deal, like you, because it is very overwhelming planning a wedding, no less planning a wedding away from where you live. I was lucky enough that a photographer friend volunteered to attend the wedding and shoot, so I luckily avoided the headache of that end. But to those who are astonished by the quality of, and amount of, photographers for this sort of thing, simply google "smokey mountain wedding" or "niagra falls wedding" or "las vegas wedding" to get an idea of the absolute cr*p (sorry, there is no other way to say it) that is out there. It really is astonishing. Sad, yes, and your jaw will drop.</p>

<p>First, the whole "30 picture combo" is common on these sorts of thing. I wish you had gone with a real pro (because imagine the possibilities of shooting something so breathtaking- and in a wedding dress at that!!), but that aside (because you did agree to it, in the end), you <em>should</em> have legal standing at this point. I would first off consult legal counsel. I don't think anyone here is saying "yes, go sue a pro because you're greedy" ... not at all.. I think what we're all saying is that we're tired of a pal with a camera claiming to produce when they can't. Mistakes happen, granted, but 100 pictures producing 37 is outrageous. If I were in your shoes, I would be pissed. Very pissed.</p>

<p>Consult an attorney, document every correspondence (even those prior to the wedding, even if you have to be vague as to the date of the communication) and proceed. You need to look over you contract, and have it, along with all addresses and contact numbers in writing, before you proceed, but I think you should push this. I wouldn't push for only the amount paid, but I would push for a re-stage and associated costs. There has to be a limit to this type of business, and only the couple who paid for the services has a legal right to bring it up to the courts. We, as professional photographers, can't say "yeah, the dude sucks and their business practices are questionable," but you can. My main complaint with the contract is</p>

<blockquote>

<p>hold harmless the consultant for any error, non-performance,</p>

</blockquote>

<p>and I think you should sit down and talk with someone knowledgeable in the field (of law, that is, but it wouldn't hurt to have a pro photographer around) and address this issue.</p>

<p>In short, I was just astonished at the quality of work that was passed off as being professional in these "mini-destinations" that it really floored me. In fact, my husband and I have talked about moving there just to be competition!</p>

<p>But my ranting and sympathizing cut short, you do have a legal right to stand up to these people and I hope you do.</p>

<p>when all else fails we can whip the horse's eyes and make them sleep and cry......The Doors, Soft Parade</p>

<p>Jim Morrison was an incredible observer of the human spirit. The above verse from the song The Soft Parade. has always been a mystery. However, taken in the whole concept of human experience i think it applies directly to your experience. Those people need to sleep and cry. Take that as you will.....but I know what I'd do. I'd spend my last dime, making sure they understood what whipping the horses eyes meant.</p>

<p>but.............that's me. and I'm not implying anything illegal here...........just, what goes around, comes around.............and that can be helped along tremendously sometimes.</p>

<p>but first...............yeah, talk to a lawyer. sometimes they are more devious than could be expected</p>