Recording to computer ?

I want to record directly to a computer using a Mini DV camera. How much space

will be used on the hard drive to store 1 hour of recording?.

 

I'm looking at buying the Panasonic PV-GS500 to record figure skating

competitions. The competitions last 10+ hours, so I need to know how many

500gb hard drives I'll need to buy when I build the computer.

 

Hope someone can help

 

Andy

roughly 13G per DV

The short answer first: you are better off recording to tape. You can put 120 minutes to tape with good quality. Tape allows you to edit out large sections upon import or save-to-disc. It is also more portable.

 

Now, about disc space. Too many unknowns to answer directly. Unknowns like 1) compression 2) most important - will your disc create one massive file large enough? Better, does your recording automatically break up the recording into manageable files on the fly?

 

My workmate got into a nasty situation where he had massive video files edited on a Mac, about filled up the two internal drives and had to go to 500gb external drives. External drives were FAT. Bummer. The files were too large to fit. It was a bit of a pain to break them all up again. What would have happened if he had tried to record directly to an external drive, I don't know.

 

So, you might want to make a test. Record to disc until something breaks. You can delete the file.

Buy a dozen tapes unless you need to edit online, in which case you should be using more professional equipment. First, you will have a back-up and won't have to worry about a hard drive crash taking out all your data. Second, you will not run into drop-outs (glitches) with tape, unlike with your computer which may be trying to do something else in the background.

My aim is to sell parents a dvd of their kids routine shortly after the kid has come off the ice.

Is it possible to record to tape using the PV-GS500 (3x CCD) then put the tape into a PV_GS13 (1x CCD) and upload it to my computer ?

 

Apologies for not knowing too much, I'm a DSLR photographer. The reason I want to buy the PV-GS500 is its Leica f/1.6 lens.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

The lens matters litte when the sensor is so puny, hence insentitive to light. If this is the only time you intend to use a camcorder I recommend renting a decent unit like a Canon XL-2. Film-makers usually rent rather than buy anyway.

You can record directly through a computer to an hard drive, using the Firewire connection on the miniDVcam. You have the option of simultaneously recording on tape (recommended) or to the hard drive alone. You need a reliable capture program. DVIO (freeware, use Google to find) is simple and works well if the computer is not very busy. Most video editing programs include a capture routine (I use Adobe Premiere Pro). You need a lot of disk space - about 12 GB/hour. I use a 250 GB drive in an external enclosure.

 

It makes sense to record to disk if you plan to edit the results and have a long, continuous shoot. Otherwise, it takes real-time to download the tape to disk. A stand-alone HD recorder makes more sense if you have a multi-camera shoot. You risk dropouts if you record to tape and download later, and direct to disk is subject to glitches as well. Tape, on the whole, is more reliable, so I do not recommend shooting to disk alone. Then too, it would take 4 DVDs and two hours to backup one hour of video that can be stored on a tiny miniDV tape. (Nero BackItUp will split large files over several DVDs - a godsend to videographers).

You don't need much processing power to simply record video. However, you do need good IO bandwidth. I use a 1.4GHz laptop and a Bus-master Firewire card. I often have fewer data collisions if I use a USB-2 external drive (usually faster than the internal drive anyway). Adobe Premiere Pro capture is well-buffered, much better than DVIO which streams video. Premiere capture will crash if you click any key or the mouse, so protect the keyboard from accidental contact (a conductor layed his score on mine - so much for saving time).

 

Editing video is not processor-intensive either, but compressing video to DVD-MP2 is another matter - you need all the horsepower you can muster. I use drive modules, so I can simply remove the HD from the external drive and plug it into my work station.

 

IMO, it's a waste of time to "build" a computer, when you can by a screaming dual-processor workstation for less than $1500 and an adequate laptop for less than $700.

Edward

 

That's the answer I needed, thank-you.

 

I'll run a laptop with the camera and a workstation at the point of sale. Both with external drives. I'll switch drives every 30 minutes so the parents don't have to wait to long to buy a dvd of the kid.

 

Thanks again Edward.

 

Andy

I have a 3.6 GHz, HP dual-P4 workstation that will process AVI files into MP2 at just under real time. This is not a viable option for point-of-sale editing and conversion. If you don't need to edit or add titles, consider a real-time MP2 converter or a direct to DVD recorder. You can copy a 4.5GB DVD in 8 minutes or less. The downside is that real-time DVD recordings may not be compatible with set-top players, and there is no practical option to revert a DVD for editing.

Edward<br><br>

I came across this.....

<a href="http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Dazzle/Digital+Video+Creator+150.htm">Digital Video Creator 150

</a>    Is this a realtime Mpeg-2 converter? It comes with Pinnacle Studio QuickStart software.<br><br>

Most of the kids routines only last 2-3 minutes, so burning should be quick.<br><br>Andy

The only real-time to MP2 converters I've seen are analog to digital. You take a big hit in quality and risk losing sync between the video and sound. Digital to digital would be the trick. I'm not in the market so I'm out of date. Just check the specs carefully.

 

The DVD video recorders I've used take 10-20 minutes to "finalize". Until finalized, they can only play in the original recorder. You would need 5 recorders and 6 hands to handle the job considering the short duration of the routines. Besides, the participants will want to see how the other contestants performed, not just their own performance.

 

It may not be practical to deliver the DVDs the same day. It makes more sense to take orders (pre-pay) and allow 2 weeks for delivery. Sales might disappoint you. Every family will be shooting their own video - you need a selling point, which starts with polish and quality.

Edward

 

The company that did the competition last year burnt the DVDs on site. So I intend to offer the same service.

 

Andy

If you are not going to do any editing, maybe you should just get a miniDVD camcorder? B&H carries quite a few.

Emre

 

I think thats the way I'm headed. I already have a Panasonic GS13 and I'll just buy a lot of tapes.

 

What is the best software, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, Pinnacle, etc? Is it possible to burn straight from the miniDV to DVD or does it have to go to a hard drive first?

 

Andy

It has to go to the hard-disk first, because it has to be transcoded from DV format to DVD. Note that I said miniDVD, not miniDV.

 

I highly recommend the Sony Vegas Movie Studio+DVD package for your needs.

Les,

 

I import DV video in the Microsoft Uncompressed AVI format. AFIK, this is an universal standard which can be imported by any professional editing program (and most consumer programs as well). I know it is compatible with Canopus hardware and software, Adobe Premiere Pro and Adobe Encore DVD. There may be proprietary uncompressed formats, but I have not used them nor have any interest therein. By "streaming", I mean that I use a capture program (Premiere Pro) to receive the DV signal via Firewire and record it on an external hard drive as an AVI file.

 

USB2 has ample speed to record AVI video in the streaming mode. By the activity light, only about 30% of the bandwidth is used. By the raw numbers, only 17% of the bandwidth is needed. Given a choice, I use Firewire. With DVIO, a robust but poorly buffered capture program, I have fewer problems with a laptop if I use Firewire for the DV cam and USB2 for the external drive. (I use IDE/USB/FW converter boxes and 7.2KRPM Western Digital EIDE drives). Capture in Premiere Pro is buffered, captures time code and more forgiving (unless you accidently press another key).

 

The Matrox RT:X100 will convert DV directly to MP2 in real time. There are many options within MP2, and not all options are recognized by all editing programs (Premiere Pro and Encore excepted). I fine-tune the MP2 parameters to suit the material and timing. It is possible to import and edit MP2 files in Premiere Pro but you take a BIG hit in quality compared to AVI, and must recompile afterwards. The time savings are net-minus. The Matrox card (and associated software) is well suited to converting an analog stream to digital and back, but offers little advantage over a simple Firewire port for DV.

 

You do not need super-fast drives to edit video, just big drives - the bottleneck is processing time from AVI to MP2. I use drives in removeable carriers, so I can quickly swap files from laptop to desktop without copying. Copying, of course, would benefit greatly from faster drives.

Andy,

 

I do recordings (video and sound) for a living, so I tend to be a "suspenders and a belt" person.

 

A tape is your first line of defense - your permanent record if something else fails downstream. Anything you record on tape up to the point of failure is still good! A bad file is a bad file and a bad DVD is a bad DVD - perfect or useless - no soft landings.

 

Point-of-sale DVDs are a good marketing strategy. The bottleneck will be the need to initiallize the DVD prior to recording, then to finalize it prior to releasing it to the client. Consumer DVD Video recorders are relatively inexpensive. AFIK, all will only record an external analog (composite, sVHS or RGB) signal, not from Firewire. You take a quality hit, but not that bad. A professional recorder would cost at least $2K (compared to <$500), and take just as long to initialize and finalize a recording. Some pro DVD recorders must format the entire DVD prior to recording - in real time no less. In short, think "consumer level". A DVD Camera also requires finalization, so that's not a solution.

 

Consequently, you will need several DVD recorders and some kind of distribution box or matrix switch for the input signals. You need enough recorders so that the distributed finalization time is less (perhaps half) the time from the beginning of one event to the next. Depending on the recorder, and with 2-1/2 minute events, five recorders should do it. If something gets messed up, you still have the tape - and a promise instead of an excuse.

Les,

 

Please clean your glasses. I said that AVI (*.avi) files are standard, not DV (*.dv) files. However, I have used many DV cameras, and all produce the same editable AVI files, regardless of which program is used to capture them. If there are proprietary DV formats, I've yet to encounter one.

 

The MP2 (*.mp2) files I compile using Adobe Premiere Pro can also be edited in Premiere Pro, with a some loss of quality compared to the original AVI files. They can be saved, along with the corresponding WAV files on a data DVD for archiving. (I do not multiplex the audio into the MP2 file because it must be decoded in order to compile a DVD anyway.) Perhaps you are thinking of video DVDs. The files on a video DVD are not in MP2 format and cannot be (easily) recovered as such nor edited.

I would record tape as a backup but burn directly to DVD via Firewire at the same time. I know Sony make Firewire input DVD recorders but I can't recall the model numbers just now. We have one at work and it is remarkably good. Do not use rewritable disks as they are less likely to play back in other machines. With skating there will be a lot of panning so be sure to set the DVD encoding to a high quality setting.I would avoid Making DVD's off a computer, it is a pretty steep learning curve and could take a long time depending on the software. ( Been there, done that)

The type of lens on the camcorder is less important than the camera's ability to keep things in focus. If you are used to a super-duper Nikon or Canon DSLR you will be shocked at how bad the average camcorder can be.

Les.

I agree completely with what you say. However Andy says that he proposes to do the DVD burning on site to offer to the clients before they leave. I just don't think the workflow is suitable for a PC solution unless you are both completely comfortable with the software and have a very powerful stable system.

I've been asking lots of questions locally and have linked up with a guy that has done the same thing at dance competitions. I'm going to sub-contract the video to him after I've checked out his work.

I think it's the safest way to go.

 

Thanks guys for spending your time educating me.

 

Andy