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Raw versus Jpeg


blades

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Hi there,

 

Heading off to europe in 2.5 weeks (16 sleeps but who's counting) will be using my new D80 with standard glass

18-

135 and a 50mm 1.8f that ive just bought at a great price, ive started shooting using JPEG, but after reading a

article on bythom im thinking maybe i should shoot raw?? then again on another site, this chap bags raw??.

Taken

into account im so new ill probably not shoot as well as i would hope and i wont be able to afford Photoshop until

i

get back, then there is the issue of learning to drive it, so is there an advantage in shooting raw...maybe i should

keep it simple? Is ther a huge difference in size? as you can imagine ill be snap happy when away.

 

Your thoughts please

Many thanks in advance

mark

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there is some size difference, although jpg at fine res can become rather large too. i love to shoot raw, but when coming back from your travels will you feel like spending considerable time converting all that work to jpg for sharing? i recently went off for a few days to nearby mountains and faced this dilemma. i chose jpg, and it wasn't so bad. i still prefer raw because of the post-processing possibilities. but for someone in your position i'd go for jpg now. you'll have time later to work with raw and see what the differences are.
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I think it's a very obvious choice. If you shoot RAW you can change the ISO, white balance and a number of

other settings after the fact, and save shots that would otherwise be lost. If you shoot jpg, you're stuck with what

you shot. If you're really good at judging exposure and other settings and nail them on every shot, you may never

need to take advantage of RAW. But why give up that option, especially on a big, expensive trip where you may

never have the chance to go back and reshoot? The biggest argument against RAW is that the files are larger --

maybe 15mb for a RAW file on my D200 compared to 4 mb for jpg. But the answer to that is simply larger

memory cards and more of them. I bought a 2 GB card the other day for $30 and prices are dropping all the time.

That's 120 frames of reusable image storage for the price of two 36 exposure rolls of film with processing. The

other downside of RAW is that you need to convert it to TIF or JPG before sending it to friends/cleints/labs. If

you're tweaking each individual frame that can be time consuming. But for files that don't need any work (which

should be most of them) you can do a batch conversion where you just start Nikon Capture (or PhotoShop)

running and go do something else while it does the work. Bottom line is that no you don't always need RAW but

it can save you when you've screwed up and the advantages -- in my opinion -- outweigh the disadvantages.

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Considering the magnitude and importance of your trip, combined with your being "so new", makes me strongly suggest shooting RAW. Not only do you get more information, but you can also cover some mistakes (like White Balance and Color Settings) after you get home. The only downside is file size, but memory is cheap now (or perhaps you can borrow some cards from a friend). You can probably count on 100 NEF files for each GB. I averaged 110 on my D200.

 

I shoot everything as NEFs in my D300, then convert the snapshots and casual shots to JPEGs for permanent storage. Nikon View or View NX are free downloads from Nikon. I would ONLY use Nikon View or Nikon Capture to convert NEFs. Adobe Camera Raw, which is the program that converts for Photoshop, loses some of the shooting parameters so the JPEGs it "makes" don't always look like the original NEF does.

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Man, you guys are just an amazing amount of "years" of knowledge, thanks so so much, i want to eventually specialize in photographing children, However, i love real life everyday street shots, can't wait to snap cafe scenes etc in Paris etc, which of my to lenses would you recommend for cafe's etc, 50mm 1.8 or my 18-135 f3.5

regards...thanks again

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Craig, How do you adjust ISO after the fact in RAW? I don't think that's possible. Also, Mark may not have Nikon Capture to batch convert his RAW files. However, I still think RAW would be the way to go because it gives more room for error and fixing. Mark may just have to wait till he has a better application that Nikon View to do the fixing, but Nikon View can do the RAW conversion and produce JPGs just as the camera would have made them.
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I am no Nikon user, but here are some of my thoughts.

 

Size of Raw is considerably bigger than JPEG, but kind of control you get for post processing is amazing. For e.g I keep my white balance setting in 'Auto White balance' mode, and if needed I will fix them on raw during processing, similarly I do for the Picture Styles, exposure compensation. This will kind of save you time while you are shooting.

 

Obvious disadvantages are space and post-processing software. Raw is 12bit in case of D80, and JPEG is 8bit, Raw is going to take more space. These days for 20+USD you can get a decent 2gb card. Worst case I would shoot JPEG on the last 1gb of memory card.

 

D80 does not come with a Raw converter, so you may have to invest about 80+$ to buy one. Some of the popular one's I know are Adobe Camera Raw, Bibble. They may work for you, you can always evaluate them and then buy.

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Raw doesn't have to be complicated. At its simplest, all you have to do is fire up Nikon's View NX software (free download), select all your files, and go to File->Convert. You're then no worse off than if you'd shot jpeg, and you have the raw files to go back to if you need to do something more sophisticated (for which there are many options in advanced raw converters like Nikon's Capture NX and Adobe Camera Raw). The only real disadvantages are the size of the files (yes, NEFs are significantly bigger) and the extra time required to handle and convert them.

 

One thing to bear in mind is that different raw converters will (at least by default) give rather different results when used on the same file. Nikon's converters give similar results to the in-camera jpegs unless you choose to change something (they use Nikon's own colour profiles and read all the in-camera settings), but 3rd party converters (which use their own profiles and ignore most camera settings) will give you a different 'rendering' of the raw file, and may require more extensive tweaking of the settings to give the result you want. Quite a few people are put off raw altogether when the first converter they try (typically Adobe Camera Raw with the default settings) gives 'worse' images than the in-camera jpegs (and unfortunately some of them write articles about it!).

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Mark, I shoot RAW but there is another thing to consider. Since RAW files are so much larger, you need to either have quite a few memory cards or have a way to download your images as you go along. The good news, SD cards are pretty inexpensive.

 

I took a laptop and portable HD to Europe so saving files was easy. Most people don't want to bother with that. Fine, but remember your only source of images might be your cards so consider this beforehand.

 

That said, RAW definitely preserves more options for you. Perhaps a year or two from now you become proficient in post processing. You will definitely wish you had a RAW image to work from.

 

OTOH, if you are okay with the tradeoffs and know that image changes will deteriorate some of the quality, just go with JPEG. If you do this, read the manual carefully and check images as you go along. You don't want to find your images over/underexposed three days into the trip.

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My advice is to shoot in RAW, download your images to a Hyperdrive, and process them in Nikon Capture NX or NX2 when you get home. If you want to see the images as you download them, get the Colorspace model. If you do not need to see the images, get the Space model. If you believe in double backups, get the hyperdrive and a laptop or two hyperdrives.

http://www.hyperdrive.com/HyperDrive-COLORSPACE-s/23.htm

 

Joe Smith

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Shoot RAW for all the reasons given above and other advice from the "ole man."

 

A couple of things. If you do have a laptop, you probably should bring it to offload your RAW shot as they eat cards. It is also great to backup your shots in case of card failure.

 

I hope you have light camera bag that is functional such as a toploader bag for your camera and lenses at http://www.lowepro.com/. Nothing worse than fighting a bag on a long day out.

 

Format your empty cards in your D80 every time before you shoot. Don't format cards with images on them, you will lose them.

 

www.bibblelabs.com has software you can afford for post. It's RAW converter rivals Nikon's (in some ways I like it better) and the software has great tools allowing you for post as well as batching out photos. I use the pro version, and per PhotoShop, it integrates well when you are ready to buy PS, which I would.

 

However, my lovely wife of 29 years shoots a D40 with an 18-135mm on "Green" -- automatic mode (jpg) and produces stunning results. She is a great photographer, but a bit of a techno-phobe. Yes, I do at times have to clean up her work in post, but, many times we miss shots fooling around trying to figure out how our gear works.

 

Which leaves me this last point, practice all you can before you go taking notes.

 

Mainly, have a seriously fun time.

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I agree with everyone above...shoot in RAW and take enough cards or back-up to a laptop. There is just so much more that you can do to manipulate your images in post processing with RAW files, and you are not likely to get back to take another shot. So, RAW will give you the most flexibility. Have a great trip, enjoy your camera, and plan to spend a LOT of time when you get home reviewing and playing with your images!
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Everybody seems to glorify RAW vs Jpeg...the way I look at this " problem " is simple: you rather be driver and drive a car or fix it - fixer ---become " mechanic" ...you rather take pictures and enjoy it or spend hours fixing them or improving....why cheat.??? ..I see adventage of shooting RAW where there are challenging lighting conditions, maybe even shooting special events (wedding) and you dont want to screw up anything, but try to shoot sports in Cont.Mode or other fast pace events.....I play with Photoshop, and it takes some time to " fix" --ONE picture...so now try to do this 100s times if not more...Why not get exposure right first time.???--How about the times ,when there wasnt Photoshop???

Did people took nice pictures???

Unless you are graphic designer, working for magazines, real PRO and so on ---you really better off look at RAW seriously, thats why "normal" people dont even bother with TIFF, thanks God no one yet recommend that....

Bottom line I am not saying do not shoot in RAW, I do sometimes myself, --with Jpeg you will be fine !!!

Let somebody else play with computer - you play with your camera and enjoy photography !!!--raf

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I believe that a photograph should convey a message or an emotion or captures a moment, or whatever photographer is trying show others, its not about getting it perfect/right the moment its captured, so there is no cheating in changing the photograph after capture. Its all about what a photographer wants show in his/her photograph.

 

I can't get everything right at the first time. Moreover, when I capture, I wont even have so much time to sit and think/rethink every aspect how photograph will eventually be, when I take a print. I am no Professional photographer.

 

I generally don't spend more than few clicks (5-10) on a single Raw image to get the picture I want. I don't do any special effects or change colors or anything. Working on photoshop (photo editing), is a different deal than working Raw images.

 

Raw is just a tool which can make life easier. If one can get exposure perfect, even then there is nothing wrong in shooting Raw, as you can capture more details than JPEG. Eventually you can convert to a 16bit TIFF or so and print it.

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Shoot both. Take some shoots in RAW, and some in JPEG. Then you get to decide whether you want to play around with ViewNX/CaptureNX and the like in order to get some flexibility, or just hit the send/print/upload button.

 

Now I'm going off-topic. Why is it David, that you should format the empty cards before you shoot? I just plug the cards fresh off the camera in my computer card reader, hit the transfer button (with the Erase after copy option checked) eject the cards and presto! Cards come out empty and ready to be filled again. Am I doing something wrong?

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"I just plug the cards fresh off the camera in my computer card reader, hit the transfer button (with the Erase after copy option checked) eject the cards and presto! Cards come out empty and ready to be filled again. Am I doing something wrong?"

 

By erasing the cards this way you run the risk of possibly not being able to write or read files in the future. It's always preferable to format the card in the camera you're using each time you want to erase. It's also easy -- just press and hold the two red buttons.

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After you download your images to your pc, with a card reader, format the card in the camera. Never format the card in your pc. It is always risky to place any camera card into your pc. That is why they teach you that the safe way to download is with a card reader. And the only safe way to format your card is to put it back into your camera and reformat it. Joe Smith
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Mark, if you are an excellent slide film photographer capable of producing a perfect exposure every time you trip the shutter, than you might be able to produce a perfect JPEG image with your new D 80. That means you fully understand its features and how it comapres to your film camera and film so you can capture those perfect images each time you take the image.

 

Even expert slide shooters bracketed a lot of their shots for different exposures and still threw a lot of them away. If you shoot JPEG, that is what you will have to do. If you shoot RAW, if your are smart, you will still try and take that one "perfect" shot to minimize post processing time and trouble. Set the camera for the conditions present to get the right image capture. But if you have to tweak your exposure compensation a little, or make other little minor adustments, you can still produce a great image from one NEF file. You will not be able to do that with your one JPEG image. If you shoot anything indoors in Europe, you better shoot RAW. Lighting is so mixed you have to tweak white balance no matter what you set on the camera. Joe Smith

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Harvey and the rest: To clarify the format the card note, What Joseph Smith said. Much better put than my quick info. And, having shot Europe many times, he is absolutely right about lighting being mixed. It is extremely variable. Good point.

 

Mostly again, have a blast and shoot all you can.

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Post-processing is not 'cheating'.

 

If you're willing to make the minor effort/investment in RAW converting software (some are free, like FastStone) then shoot RAW and don't look back. Bring extra storage cards, they're pretty cheap now.

 

I initially thought that RAW+JPEG was a good idea but I got tired of it quickly and now shoot only RAW. I found it much easier to deal with just one copy of each image during post processing rather than two--I don't want to have to set metadata (caption, description, tags, etc.) for both the JPEG and the RAW! Additionally, they take up even more space that way on the card (and probably later on your hard disk too). Better to set it on the RAW, then any JPEGs I end up producing will inherit the metadata. Furthermore, most of the time I don't want a full-size JPEG--if it's going via e-mail or the web it will be downsized. Again, I don't need the +JPEG as it will normally be full-sized.

 

Even if shooting RAW you still want to get the exposure as 'correct' as possible in-camera.

 

I don't see any distinction between putting a storage card "in a pc" and "in a card reader", not sure why Joe Smith calls it "risky". The 'internal' card readers are no different than external USB-connected card readers. That being said, I do recommend transferring the images to PC with a card reader, but formatting the cards (after transfer) in-camera.

 

And MOST importantly, have a great trip. You'll probably like using that 50 f/1.8 at night, no flash, you'll probably end up raising ISO anyway. The zoom should be a great daylight lens. I'm not completely familiar with the D80 + 18-135 combination but bear in mind that it is possible that the lens or lens hood may cast a shadow with the built-in flash so perhaps use the 50 or go hoodless if that's the case. Look for a dark shadow at the bottom center of your images.

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The easy way to explain RAW: Instead of your little camera to process your photos... you use the big computer.

 

Dude, when you go overseas, shoot in JPEG and RAW. Because, down the road when you learn RAW, you will

be kicking [yourself] that you didn't use it when you were there. Believe me, I know... too many trips shot in

JPEG (before I learned RAW)... wish it would have been in RAW now.

 

Eric

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