Pyro paranoia

Well, I've used PMK twice now, and I'm happy with the results.

However, I find that my darkroom experiences now are tense because

I'm so worried about where and if I've dripped the toxic stuff. I

feel like I'm working with plutonium or something. I wear gloves, but

during the course of developing, I still must touch other things in

the darkroom, like faucets, etc. I try to make mental notes on where

the stuff has inadvertently dripped and what I've touched with pyro-

laden gloves so that I can clean it up later. By the way, working in

gloves is no picnic. Am I over-reacting to the dangers of this stuff?

Do I have to give my darkroom a complete scrub-down with soap and

after using Pyro? Can I just rinse everything with water? Thanks for

replies.

For many years, photographers handled Pyro and Amidol developers with their bare hands and, except for the black fingernails, seemed to have no particular problems, with no premature deaths nor illness. I'd say that you're right in being cautious, but don't need to obsess about it.

Yes there are some hazardous substances in PMK. Pyrogallol I believe is a documented carcinogen but you need to bath or drink the stuff to get any where near lethal dosages. Common sense aplies. Don't imerse your hands or fingers in the stuff, use gloves. Use proper ventilation if possible. If you spill it on a surface, clean the spill before it has time to dry, the substances are far easier to ingest if they become dust. Wash hands and equipment thoroughly after use. Yes people over the years have handled the stuff with no gloves but I always think about Weston developing Parkinson's disease and wonder if there is a connection to all the skin contact. But occaisonal exposure should cause no harm.

Pyrogallol is the main problem. It is somewhat dangerous in powder or dust form. Wear a respirator when you mix it and, as advised above, clean up PMK spills before they dry and become dangerous. Pyro is ingested through the skin (you can taste it), so wear gloves. But as far as danger goes it does not compare with the old days when photographers toned prints in mercury and uranium and used formaldahyde in many of their formulas.

As far as working in gloves, you might want to try disposable latex surgeon's gloves (as opposed to exam gloves). Surgeon's gloves are hand specific - the mold for a surg glove looks like a human hand (ie, the thumb extends in a third dimension), whereas the exam gloves (found in supermarkets, etc) are made on a flat mold and therefore your thumb gets tired.

 

Exam gloves are dirt cheap, and I suspect you can get hand specific gloves at industrial supply houses. My former company made gloves for both the industrial and medical markets, that's how I know this stuff.

While reading Hutchings book, the section on the options of developing with pyro caught my eye. Yes, tray developing is considered the most inexpensive option, but he talks extensively about gas bust with nitrogen as another methodology that does not get much air time (no pun intended)IMHO on this forum. I personally do not like gloves and am about to go the path of gas burst with some assistance of one that has enjoyed the simplicity of this technique for years. No gloves, the volume of the tank dictating the number of sheets per run and pulling out hangers on their own time to get individual minus, normal or plus development. and yes, you are probably over reacting a bit.

 

However, I remember a professor a long time ago telling me that when I was at a crossroad and it does not feel right - to innovate.

 

Cheers!

I use surgical gloves for tray processing but don't worry about the small drips with tank processing.

Keep it in perspective, Ben. Just use sensible precautions and common sense. As a matter of chemical fact, pyro is no more toxic than the other chemicals used in the darkroom and is less toxic than many common things around the house. (The LD50 value for pyro is 1.6 g/kg and the LD50 value of hydroquinone is 0.3 g/kg, so hydroquinone is 5 times more toxic than pyro and, in fact, is about as toxic as acetaminophin a.k.a, tylenol = 0.3g/kg). The catch is that, unlike most other darkroom chemicals, pyro is <b>readily absorbed through the skin</b>. So, don't imerse your hands in it without gloves and just wash your hands after mixing. Handle it like you would a pesticide or herbicide, with a little caution but don't go into paranoia over a little splashing on your hand. Just wash it off, and keep things in perspective. It's not toxic enough to be a an acute poison but it could be a chronic poison if you keep your hands imersed in it. (This would be akin to stopping every half hour and taking a sip of a metol or hydroquinone developer, sure to lead to chronic poisoning but unlikely to occur.)

Thanks, everyone. I'll try to relax a little more when using Pyro and not panic if a little of it spills onto my skin or into the sink.

There is nothing wrong with being a little obsessive about clean up. I have three kids and process the stuff in the bathroom. I am extra careful with it, but I handle pesticides and herbicides that are much more toxic. The three years as a chem major, most stuff handled on a daily basis was much more toxic and, unlike pyro, bio-accumulates in the tissues. It (pyro) is water soluble but will stain the stuff that you cant wash off.

 

The most danger with pyro (besides my wife getting PO'd about our grout) is the dust. I dont have a vent hood yet, so I go outside, get upwind, and wear an n95 particulate mask and eye protection. To minimuze the dust, I get the pre-packaged stuff from art-craft, then place the bag under the distilled water. I then open the package, with gloved hands, and stir until disolved. I pull out the bagie, then dilute accordingly. Usually there is no dust at all, but I still use the protective gear as a precaution. I've never checked to see how accurate their weighing is because I've never had any bad results on film, so I trust their weighing.

 

My last developing session I laid down plastic and spilled some (a lot) of the stuff in an area that got between the plastic and the tile, capilary action took the stuff all over my brand new remodled tile and grout. The glazed tile cleaned nicely, the grout didn't. I wasn't to happy and my wife was downright pissed. The kids had to brush their teeth in the other bathroom until the following weekend until I had to scrape out ALL the grout and re-grout my bathroom vanity.

 

Other precautions I take because of kids and pets, is to keep ALL of my toxics locked up, I keep a list of the chemicals, and the appropriate treatment listed for each for the ER, Vet or poison control in case of the worst. I also do this for cleaning solutions, pool supplies and any other "household chemicals"

 

It's better to be paranoid than cavalier

 

Pardon my rotten spelling, I've hade a few guinness today.

I actually like the taste of pyro, its rather clean and refreshing, it

sure beats garlic and stale beer!!

 

 

CP Goerz

Ben,

 

I was JUST LIKE you when I first started using pyro. Then I read

on this list a comment Michael Smith made about nothing we

use being as toxic as common bleach. Then I re-read the

Hutchings book and read that drops here and there won't do

anything.

 

And so it is. I have been using the stuff for a couple of years

now, with no problems. I use a tray instead of the sink, just to

keep the odd drops contained, and I use gloves. And when

using PMK I use the pre-bottled stuff, thinking that the powder is

harder to spot and much more toxic than the oxidizing green dots

that appear if something is spilled.

 

dgh

i was told by a chemist that the latex exam gloves may let pyro

through i use vinyl food service gloves and they work fine for tray

processing also latex could cause an alergy.

FWIW, Michael and Paula swear by nitrile gloves. From their web site: Nitrile Gloves: Best Manufacturing Co.

Nitrile gloves are impervious to hazardous chemicals, dry easily, and fit well with no slipping. Best Mfg. Co.is the manufacturer. They will refer you to a distributor in your area. www.bestglove.com

 

Also, Paula wears a respirator when using the PMK (both mixing and development). She has developed lung problems that she is convinced are from the years of darkroom chemicals. You can get them from many places, including your local big-box hardware retailer. Be sure to get the ones for "organic vapors". They run $20-30. She talks about this in the Azo forum on their web site. Different people have different tolerances, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I just started using Pyro and I bought a respirator; I was convinced I would hate wearing it, but it wasn't that terribly uncomfortable and I thought better safe than sorry.

 

-Jen

Hah! You think Pyro Paranoia is bad? wait till you get selenium paranoia. That stuff can pass right through rubber gloves.