Professional opinion of amateur wedding photographers

My brother got married today. He hired a professional photographer, as he

should have, but I still managed to take over 500 candids (sometimes of poses

that the prof had setup) during the event. Although my brother didn't

specifically ask me to take photos, I'm sure he expected that I would.

 

After we got home tonight, I got to thinking. What do professional

photographers think of amateurs like me who take gobs of photos at "their"

event. I tried very hard (and I think succeeded) to not get in her way, and

since I don't like to use a flash, I know I never interfered with her lighting.

Is she likely to think I was stepping on her toes, or are people like me simple

one of those things you professionals have to work around at an event like that?

Yep... just simply one of the things to work around. These days DSLR's are so affordable, it's inevitable. I've changed my sales format to account on a low likelihood of print orders... as I'm sure many others have done as well. But... after seeing the amateur's work on various online photo albums (such as facebook or myspace) I can always rest assured that having a DSLR doesn't make one an instant pro-level photographer. Now if we could just get more brides to be aware of this...!

If you stayed out of the way, you were probably ok, but for you to take 500 photos, you had to be noticed and if you give any photos to the couple that the pro set up, then you are likely taking away any money the photographer could have made.

 

Like Jenni said, "I can always rest assured that having a DSLR doesn't make one an instant pro-level photographer"

If I had been the hired pro you would have felt very uncomfortable shooting after or around me. I probably wouldn't have said anything to you but you would have felt intimidated. (BTW- I'm 6'5" 250#)

This sort of happened to me this past weekend. I photographed a wedding and I noticed an older man (in his 60's) arranging poses etc. He had what looked to be a Nikon D200 and a flash on a bracket. An example of one thing was I had just finished photographing the rings in the boquet and looked over and he had already posed their hands on it! I was so mad!!!! They barely had time to put their rings back on. I don't know who he was but I'm going to ask the bride. How can this happen if we have a contract? I'm not implying that he was paid, I just don't see how someone can have the nerve to do that. I'm working really hard to make sure I get all the shots I'm supposed to and then I see that. What do the rest of you do when things like this happen?

Just out of curiosity why on earth would you take 500 images? They hired a pro. I can understand taking some shots for ones pleasure, maybe 30 or so at the wedding and the same amount for the reception, but didn't this get in the way of you enjoying the wedding and the reception?

 

I've been invited to many weddings and the first thing I do is have fun, talk with my great friends and family, drink, eat, and leave my gear at home! Just wondered what drove you to take 500 shots. I'm not putting you down, but actually the opposite. Perhaps you should consider going into photography as a career. Sounds like you really like/love photography and it's something that is a sincere passion.

 

Anyway to answer your question, in the future, it is polite to ask the photographer if he/she has any issues of you taking photo's. Often it is stated in the contract, between the wedding couple and the photographer; some sort of statement about amateurs taking pic's. Our studio has something regarding this in our contracts for several reasons. The first major reason is time! Often we only have a 1/2 hour to knock out the formal shots between the wedding and the reception. Could be 200 images or more. This is most often the church rules so we have to hurry and get as many shots as we can. For example today it was 108 degrees outside so needless to say the formals were done inside the church. We had 35 minutes before the starting setup of the next wedding.

 

Another major reason is if others are taking photo's eyes of the people being photographed WILL wonder subconsciously to your camera instead of ours so we get people looking all over the place. We can't always see this until the proofs come back and who is the bride mad at? Us!!! The bride and groom are also stuck with us correcting eyes turned, other problems, using retouching software and prices for this work is not cheap. Anyway this gives you an idea of what we pro's go through and there are many more issues that pop up, so as a pro, please be kind to us and ask us if you can pop out a few shots. I've never, ever, ever, said no, but I'm sure if you were popping out 500 shots I'd have to say something for the sake of image quality. Best regards and thanks for asking. Hope this answers your questions.

Jacks response brought back a fond memory of someone behind me taking photo's during some formals. I was backing up because it was a group photo and I knocked down a lady! I had no idea she was there! Her dress was over her face! Needless to say she didn't take anymore pics, I hurt her foot, and it one of the reasons why I have insurance!

A famous photographer from Houston had it in his contract that if anyone shot images of any pose that he created at a couple's wedding there would be a sitting fee added on to the couple's bill. If the the rule wasn't obeyed and the sitting fees charged to the couple, they didn't receive any images/proofs until the additional fees were paid. This was all spelled out to the couple at the time they signed their contract. Needless to say the couple made sure that no-one else stole any shots at their wedding. I don't know if Lee ever really had to do it, but like a good poker bluff it did the job.

Howdy!

 

I only restrict photography during the formals. I simply will not tolerate anybody shooting over my shoulder during that time, because it distracts the subjects. I cannot compete with Grandma for their attention, and their eyes WILL wander.

 

I send an e-mail a week or two before the event, reminding the B&G of this policy, and to please gently explain it to all the persons who will be present at the formals. It's a lot friendlier than threatening people with sitting fees, and just as effective.

 

I cannot stop amateurs from taking pictures at other times, and I have no desire to. In the same e-mail mentioned above, I offer to help anybody who is having trouble with his/her camera at the event.

 

So Ben, as long as you put your camera away during the formals, you can take as many pictures as you like at any wedding I am covering.

I do like to get the choice locations for cake cutting, bouquet toss, etc.; but this is simply a matter of working with the DJ. If you know when things will happen ahead of time, you can stake your claim to the best spot.

 

I actually have to deal with this issue from the other side in a couple of weeks. I am going to be a guest at a wedding, and they have already hired somebody else to shoot their pictures. I do plan on taking two relatively inconspicuous cameras: a Rebel XTi with an 85mm f1.8 for the ceremony, and a long zoom image stabilized point and shoot (S3 IS) for the reception, which will have lots of light. But both cameras will be stowed away during the formals.

 

Later,

 

Paulsky

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

Photography is a blast. Lots of people like to have fun with their camera these days. The

more people who do it, the more they'll appreciate really good photography when they see

it.

 

My partner and I encourage guest participation. We chat up the guests with high-end

DSLRs... usually give them pointers if they're having problems (most do).

 

I'm also an image thief. When I see one of them get a group together, I scoot over and

grab their set up ... inviting the guest with the camera to join the group to complete it.

We'll even take a shot with their camera.

 

There's two places we have to exercise some dominance:

 

Just before the processionals begin, I patrol the aisle and ask each guest sitting on the

end with a camera to please not lean in to shoot. I tell them they can get a shot as the

wedding party passes that I can't get from up front ( works like a charm). Then during the

formals I ask that no one even raise their camera to their eye because it'll distract the

wedding party.

 

The net result is that many referals have come from guests with cameras. It may cut into

print sales for those who still do that, but for us it's been good for business.

Perspective: I have taken over 1000 Weddings for money. A few weeks ago, I went to a very special wedding, as a guest and where I was to speak.

 

 

I took a camera: the camera was very conspicuous especially to a professional`s eye. It was obvious that the hired Professional Photographer particularly noted my presence (or the camera`s presence), amongst the `point and shoot Auties and Uncles` and the dozen or so `entry level DSLRs`.

 

 

I took three available light photographs from the pew in the Church, and a few casual candid captures outside, after the ceremony, one of the Bride, all were noted.

 

 

I would not conscience taking images of formal arrangements from the side or around the engaged Professional, nor did I.

 

 

And as the day moved on, the Photographer`s focus was more on his job and less on me (or my camera): which by the by was a previous mistake, IMO: he should have been concentrating on his job all the time.

 

 

Two Points:

 

 

. firstly, I was there to enjoy myself, as part of that enjoyment I wanted a `happy snap` of the Bride at the Altar, it was a memory image. Sure, the lighting, exposure, framing, timing and the like was controlled as much as I could and I could not forget my training in that regard. But it was a record of a time in the public forum and I have three very nice images: but they are simply a record of the event.

 

 

. secondly, for many years I made a living capturing images for sale. A great part of those captures is in the preparation. I would not allow my skill executed in that preparation be stolen by others, therefore I would never conscience stealing it from another.

 

This is NOT an academic moral high ground: it is reality. Nor is it a chastisement in response to the posted question: many people just do not see things from this perspective.

 

In response to the specific post:

 

 

>>> He hired a professional photographer, as he should have, <<<

 

 

Well, not necessarily, but having done so, I expect your Brother had expectations of the Professional he hired and the results which should be obtained by her.

 

 

>>> but I still managed to take over 500 candids <<<

 

 

I would expect the Professional would have no issue with this: I would not care, if I were her.

 

 

 

>>> (sometimes of poses that the prof had setup) during the event. <<<

 

 

 

I cannot speak for the Professional your Brother engaged, but that would not have happened if I were her.

 

 

 

>>> Although my brother didn't specifically ask me to take photos, I'm sure he expected that I would. <<<

 

 

Perhaps, you did not ask him either?

 

 

>>> After we got home tonight, I got to thinking. <<<

 

 

Thinking is good.

 

 

>>> What do professional photographers think of amateurs like me who take gobs of photos at "their" event. <<<

 

 

 

I have outlined my views: there are two distinct parts to them.

 

 

 

>>> I tried very hard (and I think succeeded) to not get in her way, and since I don't like to use a flash, I know I never interfered with her lighting. <<<

 

 

 

That`s good. You should ask her, if you want to know if you were in her way.

 

 

My guess is Yes, some of the time, especially when she was setting up poses. Probably, it resulted in delaying her or distracting her thought processes.

 

 

 

 

>>> Is she likely to think I was stepping on her toes <<<

 

 

Probably: but from the outline given she may not have been experienced in handling such situations, or the interaction may have been the opposite (from her perspective) as that presented by Mr Krohn, i.e. she might have felt intimidated by you.

 

 

>>> or are people like me simple one of those things you professionals have to work around at an event like that? <<<

 

 

Yes and there are many work around techniques.

 

 

 

The question you have not asked is:

 

 

Did my actions (especially during the posed sessions) have any effect on the resultant images, quality and or quantity, my Brother will have to view and from which he may choose?

 

 

WW

 

Post Script, for clarification:

 

>>> (sometimes of poses that the prof had setup) during the event. <<<

 

I interpreted as `The Formals` as described by Marc Williams, (above).

 

WW

Ben:

 

I encourage guests to work with me during formals. I'll take my shot, and then I'll step out of the way and let them have theirs, time permitting. That way, everybody can have the group's attention. If I cannot produce a better print than the guests, then I don't deserve that particular print sale. I'm there to document my clients' day and to make the photography part of it as stress-free as possible for them. Guests with cameras are part of the day, and I see no reason not to let everybody enjoy themselves.

 

 

Eric

I've enjoyed other "photographers" and at times I'll jump into the shots they are framing or groups they are gathering and everyone chuckles. In my most recent wedding I lended a set of AA rechargeable batteries to a photography student (friend of bride) who was trying to shoot available light in a room where available light was not available! At the end of the night she returned them and profusely thanked me... wonder if she'll contact me when she needs a wedding photographer, dunno, don't care but I'd love the story it would tell.

 

If I depended on print sales then I'd consider it as stealing; at this point I sell the image files with the package. I include them because I find that the consternation of patrolling and managing the renegade shooters works against the spirit of the celebration.

 

Hey, why don't you process the photos you "stole" and send them to the hired photographer since you were, in essence, a second photographer (500 images) and give permission for use in the album and in the collection. Ask the hired photographer to merely put your initials into each image file so the bride and groom can later identify which are yours and which are not yours. (Yeah, the thundering herd will prolly think this is a bad idea but think of it: it's a party and celebration so why not just get all the photos into one person's hands for professional management: FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE BRIDE AND GROOM! I think the "collaboration" would fit the true spirit of the marriage celebration event.

 

The photographer was gracious with your zest in taking photos at her contracted event ... can you be gracious and allow her to use yours in the album? hmmm. (of course the hired photographer might see this as a slight and a slam, dunno; I do know I'd love to get image files from others and manage them and put them into the final product: hmm, interesting idea forming: RUT ROH: sounds like an interesting concept though.

Morgan- You bring up an interesting point- using other's files to add to the final book- or to save your ass when things go wrong.

When my partner and I opened our new studio back in 1976, on our 2nd wedding we sent our film to our out-of-town lab - Garrett&Lane in Atlanta and they ruined all the film in a processor failure. The whole wedding was lost. All they initially did was replace the film. Needless to say we were devastated!! We had to pay transportation to get as many of the wedding party back to Houston to re-stage the formals; paid for the tux rental for the groom & groomsmen; bouquets for the bride & bridesmaids; re-book the church; ended up feeding them a meal; and last- we got ahold of the bride's uncle's 35mm "snapshots" (film). We sent it all off to the lab and had them print the entire album and all reprints at their expense. In the end we lost over $2k in the re-stagging and re-shoot and this was in 1976 dollars. It was a very hard hit to a brand new studio already $55k in debt to open the door. But we saved our reputation and booked some more portrait and weddings from a couple of the bridesmaids so we probably broke even to cost after about 2 years. If we hadn't had the uncle's 35mm shots we wouldn't have had anything of the reception to put in the book.

..what a way to start a photography studio.....

..we quit using that lab.....

Ben, imagine that you were the pro your brother hired to shoot his wedding, and ask yourself:<p>

<li>Did that guy who took 500 shots, including some of my setups, distract my subjects and make my job harder and more time-consuming?

<li>Did that guy's actions detract from the quality of the images the B&G received for what they paid?

<p>

Please post your answers if you are comfortable doing so.

Jack, that's one incredible story!!

 

What I learn from that is what you can/should do when something goes wrong; this is a great guideline/benchmark to use, thank you.

 

(In 1976 gasoline was selling for a national average of about .60 per gallon and today it's approx. 4x-5x that and the average Brand New home was approx $43,000 and last year the average price of a home sale, not new!, was $230,100!!)

I think its a personal opinion.. I dont mind, the wedding I did yesterday have many people with cameras ranging from point and shoots to Canon 20d's... I think MOST people realize that the photographer who is getting paid to be there, needs to move the wedding party through formals and I haven't really had to many problems...

I truly, truly don't mind at all as long as they stay out of my way. Every once in awhile I get

an overzealous guest and I have to jokingly ask them to step aside, but most of the time I

don't really care who has a camera and what they do with it. :)

For the formals, I find it an annoyance, and I need a heavier hand in these situations.

 

Otherwise, no big deal IMHO, because I don't set up alot of shots, and toting a f/1.2 lens will always give me something different.

 

Occasionally, I steal their setups at receptions and I try to make them part of the story. Also, I'll grab their camera and shoot an image as well.

I shot a wedding yesterday and had a couple of amateurs there. One came up to my husband before the wedding started and said he was just there it get a few shots for someone who could not attend and that he would stay out of my way. I thought that was nice. The other one, however, stood in the row behind me while I was taking the formals. He never did get in my way, but for each press of my shutter button, he would snap off 10 to 20 shots. I guess law of averages; you take enough pictures, one of them is bound to turn out. I don't mind other taking pictures, but my contract does stated that I am to be the only professional hired to take pictures, and I or my husband will tell someone nicely and sternly that they are in the way and need to get out of the way and stay out of the way.

and Kelly you probably just lost a portion of your reprint order from the formals- as formals are where most of your reprint orders come from

 

One trick I use is- I use a Norman 200B (full power) as a bare-bulb head inside a Wescott Halo on "slave"(not wireless). My exposure is a balanced fill flash using my SB-800 turned down -1.7ev with the diffuser dome as the fill and the Norman as the key. I know what the exposure is by my hand-held strobe meter. When the P&S- and anyone else tries to pop a frame of one of my formal poses the Norman pops and blows out/over-exposes their exposure. I don't appreciate them eating up the charge on the battery in my Norman but it always gets through the formals with my pops and the others... that'll teach 'em ;-)

This is a very interesting discussion. I have a couple of questions:

 

1 - As the hired photographer how often have guests asked you if you would mind if they shot some pictures?

 

2 - What's the purpose of you using their camera to take a couple of shots? I don't understand why you would want to do that.

1. Guests ask me constantly if I mind if they shot some pictures.

 

2. Taking a picture with the guests' cameras is a good will gesture. If you don't get your profits from reprints and enlargements, it makes no difference to your bottom line and makes great impressions on the guests, which may result in referrals.

 

As for the original question, if they don't impact my ability to get my images, I leave people toting cameras alone, even help them out if I can. If they are negatively impacting my ability to get my pictures, I nicely but firmly ask them to stop doing whatever it is they are doing.

Zack, it is pretty amazing how polite people really are. Since 1987 I've never had an issue with the guests during the formals. I will sometimes ask them to hold the shots until I've taken mine to assure I have full control of the people and their attention is solely directed to me. Again, I don't want eyes wondering all over the place.

 

Regarding your second question, guests will sometimes ask me to pop off a shot using their camera so they can be in the shot with the family or friends, whatever. If I'm not running around like a madman I always honor this request.

 

Ben, it looks like the pro's all agree. Try not to take pics during the formals. The photographers really don't care.