Process old C41 film with B&W chemicals or C41?

I've heard that with old film color film exposed decades ago, that you might be better off cross-processing with B&W chemicals. Is that really true? I had some kodacolor II that was probably exposed in the mid to late seventies. I processed it just like any other C41 film. The color was badly shifted but when converted to B&W in software it didn't look bad. Would I have gotten better results with just HC-110?

Example:

This was taken with a Brownie Twin 20 - most likely with flash.

The scanned photo had a strong reddish cast and for fun here's the scanner's "digital ROC" software's attempt at restoring the proper colors:

If the results are quesitonable that it isn't worth the cost of C41, then black and white is a good choice.

I did it on a roll of Gold 1000 that came in a used camera that I bought.

Since none of the pictures were mine, and at ISO 1000, in addition to unknown storage

conditions, it wasn't worth C41 to me.

There is actually a Kodak recommended way to do this. First, you develop as black and white,

and get what you can from it. Then bleach the developed silver back to silver halide, and

develop with C41 chemistry. That way, you get two chances, but probably only worth doing

for unusually valuable images.

The slower speed of Kodacolor II gave you a better chance, too.

In the color image, it looks like a position dependent color shift.

If you can do a x-axis dependent color correction, it might come out better.

C-41 films can be cross processed in black & white chemicals, however the results will likely be substandard. This is because negative color films have a yellow filter layer just beneath the top blue-sensitive emulsion. Its purpose is to preclude blue light energy from reaching the underlying green and red sensitive emulsions. These emulsions have been treated to force them to become sensitive to colors other than violet and blue. However, they never lose their sensitivity to blue. Should blue light reach them, crosstalk occurs.

To prevent blue light interaction, a Carey-Lee filter layer is fabricated just below the blue sensitive emulsion. This layer consists of a clear gelatin binder holding colloidal silver. Colloidal silver is super fine silver particles in suspension. The particle size is such that blue light photons collide and are absorbed, while red and green photons pass with ease. Thus the more energetic blue light is checked.

When C-41 film is developed per standard, the bleach step chelates (combines silver with a halogen). The halogenated silver is thus made soluble in the fix. Thus all traces of the Carey-Lee filter are removed.

Should the film be developed in a customary black & white process, the Carey-Lee filters remain. Its persistence adds a uniform density that makes these negative difficult to scan or print (not impossible).

Do not confuse the Carey-Lee filter with the Orange Mask typical of color negatives. The Hanson Orange Mask consists of residual magenta and yellow dye couplers. These blend to an orange. Their purpose is to bolster the cyan dye contained in the red-sensitive layer. Cyan is difficult to get “right”; thus it needs some assistance. These residual tints are actually two positive “corrective” images superimposed on the three negative dye images. They adjusts contrast as they bolster the cyan dye image.

If the results are quesitonable that it isn't worth the cost of C41, then black and white is a good choice.

 

I did it on a roll of Gold 1000 that came in a used camera that I bought.

Since none of the pictures were mine, and at ISO 1000, in addition to unknown storage

conditions, it wasn't worth C41 to me.

 

There is actually a Kodak recommended way to do this. First, you develop as black and white,

and get what you can from it. Then bleach the developed silver back to silver halide, and

develop with C41 chemistry. That way, you get two chances, but probably only worth doing

for unusually valuable images.

 

The slower speed of Kodacolor II gave you a better chance, too.

 

In the color image, it looks like a position dependent color shift.

If you can do a x-axis dependent color correction, it might come out better.

I wasn't consciously thinking about the cost aspect of it, that makes sense. In this case the roll had been sitting in my fridge for 18 months and my current batch of C-41 was old enough that I didn't want to use it on anything important to me, so in this went.

Once in a while an old camera will end up in my possession with a roll of film still in it. If the person I bought the camera from is likely to be connected somehow to the person that took the pictures I'll ask them if they want the roll back or not. I'm hesitant to volunteer that I might attempt to process it because I don't want to feel obligated to nor do I want to create any expectations in case I screw it up. If they're really interested in getting them processed I'll mention film rescue.

This roll was out of one of a bunch of cameras that came from a very loose acquaintance of my wife's. I'm going to try to let them know that I have a couple of pictures but my wife can't remember their name a the moment. ;)

Anyway, I process these for practice and to try different things. They're not worth a huge amount of effort. If I had more post-processing skills and better tools I might try what you suggest about the color correction. The positional dependence might have something to do with the flash and uneven lighting fooling the software.

C-41 films can be cross processed in black & white chemicals, however the results will likely be substandard. This is because negative color films have a yellow filter layer just beneath the top blue-sensitive emulsion. Its purpose is to preclude blue light energy from reaching the underlying green and red sensitive emulsions. These emulsions have been treated to force them to become sensitive to colors other than violet and blue. However, they never lose their sensitivity to blue. Should blue light reach them, crosstalk occurs.

 

To prevent blue light interaction, a Carey-Lee filter layer is fabricated just below the blue sensitive emulsion. This layer consists of a clear gelatin binder holding colloidal silver. Colloidal silver is super fine silver particles in suspension. The particle size is such that blue light photons collide and are absorbed, while red and green photons pass with ease. Thus the more energetic blue light is checked.

 

When C-41 film is developed per standard, the bleach step chelates (combines silver with a halogen). The halogenated silver is thus made soluble in the fix. Thus all traces of the Carey-Lee filter are removed.

 

Should the film be developed in a customary black & white process, the Carey-Lee filters remain. Its persistence adds a uniform density that makes these negative difficult to scan or print (not impossible).

 

Do not confuse the Carey-Lee filter with the Orange Mask typical of color negatives. The Hanson Orange Mask consists of residual magenta and yellow dye couplers. These blend to an orange. Their purpose is to bolster the cyan dye contained in the red-sensitive layer. Cyan is difficult to get “right”; thus it needs some assistance. These residual tints are actually two positive “corrective” images superimposed on the three negative dye images. They adjusts contrast as they bolster the cyan dye image.

Very informative, - thanks. If I run across a roll like this in the future I'll probably stick with C-41.

Yes, if I had already mixed C41 that would be different.

And yes there is the Caley-Lee filter which does make it dense. At the time, I thought it might be overdeveloped.

Since fixer has some tendency to dissolve silver (why you are not supposed to greatly overfix), it might be possible to get that out.

Lab near me does C41 135 for $8, and 120 for $8.50. More than I would pay for unknown film.

Yes, if I had already mixed C41 that would be different.

 

And yes there is the Caley-Lee filter which does make it dense. At the time, I thought it might be overdeveloped.

 

Since fixer has some tendency to dissolve silver (why you are not supposed to greatly overfix), it might be possible to get that out.

 

Lab near me does C41 135 for $8, and 120 for $8.50. More than I would pay for unknown film.

@glen_h Yes, prolonged fixing will dissolve some silver. Sorry to report, the image developed up by the black & white processing is also silver. If you soak the film for a prolonged time in fix, both the Carey-Lee and the image dissolve together. When C-41 is properly processed, colored dye is formed along with the silver image. The bleach step sets up the black & white image and the Carey-Lee for removal by the fix. The dyes remain forming the color negative image.

I was thinking that the colloidal particles were smaller, and dissolve faster.

But maybe not.

Since developed grains have a lot of sharp edges and surface area, maybe they

also dissolve fast.

I was thinking that the colloidal particles were smaller, and dissolve faster.

 

But maybe not.

 

Since developed grains have a lot of sharp edges and surface area, maybe they

also dissolve fast.

@ glen_h The two fixers we use are sodium thiosulfate, nickname "hypo" and ammonium thiosulfate, nickname "rapid fix" because it works twice as fast. From the inception of photography, the search was on as to how to render the silver image permanent. Sodium thiosulfate has been in use since 1837. Such a solution dissolves silver salts while leaving the metallic silver image alone (for the emersion times we use). Rapid fix came about just after World War II when ammonium thiosulfate became commercially available as a 60% solution. Paper emulsions 45 to 70 seconds -- Film emulsions 2 to 7 minutes. If the materials are left in the fixer for an hour or so, the solution begins to dissolve metallic silver. Fixer for film is diluted one part fix, three parts water. Fixer for prints, one part fixer, seven parts water.

David Lyga has given a method on photrio (previously apug) that can deal with Carey-Lea silver and give very decent negatives. His method (and its variants) take a few iterations to get everything right, but it works fine and I can vouch from my own experience.

Here are a couple of examples:

Here is David Lyga's method:

Developing C-41 Color Film w/ D-76 B&W Chemicals

See post #3.

Here is David Lyga's method:

 

Developing C-41 Color Film w/ D-76 B&W Chemicals

 

See post #3.

Photographers have been playing around with the materials of this process for just over 200 years. We have long-suffered dealing with over or under exposure and or over or under developing. We have remedies up our sleeve. We are talking, baths that reduce and baths that intensive otherwise spoiled frames

Farmers Reducer is the brain child of Ernest Howard Farmer (English 1860-1944). This film density reducer consists of sodium thiosulfate (hypo) + potassium ferricyanide.

Farmer’s Reducer:

Solution 1

Potassium ferricyanide 37.5 grams

Dissolve in water to make 500ml

Soution 2

Sodium thiosulfate 480 grams

Dissolve in water to make 2000ml

To use:

Just before use maker a working solution, combine 30ml solution 1 and 120ml of solution B then add water to make 1000ml

Immerse the black-and-white negative into the working. Observe under strong light as the negative reduces. Remove when the density of the treated negative is acceptable. Wash in running water for 20 minutes. Treat with wetting agent and dry. Process can be repeated as required. Also works on black-and-white prints and can be applied with cotton swan or brush to treat a small area.

All modern color films have the dyes incorporated in the emulsion. These dyes are basically colorless until they receive missing ingredients from the color developer. As the film emerges from the color developer, the colored dye image is superimposed atop a silver based image. The silver image glooms the colored image thus we remove the silver image with a bleach solution. The trick is to bleach out the silver image without harming the dye image. For years, color films were bleached using a variation of Farmer’s Reducer.

This is actually nonthreatening because the cyanide is not easily liberated. Nevertheless, cyanide was eliminated from the C-41 and E-6 process, replaced by EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetate). This is a chelating agent, it gets its name from the fact that it acts like it has claws (like a lobster) that grasp heavy metals like silver (It is in your bottled salad dressing).

What is described is to vigorously over-develop to gain a very dense silver image and then bleach back the accumulated silver and this lessens the impact of the yellow filter layer. Seems to me, if I planned to bleach, I would just as soon subject the film to the standard C-41 process. But that’s just me.

Very informative thread, - thank you.

David's method might be interesting to try but seems like a lot of work for film I typically don't care that much about. If I wanted to create traditional prints it may make more sense but since I just scan the negatives it's easy enough for me to convert the bad color to reasonable B&W via software. I end up with aging C-41 chemicals often enough that I don't mind using them for this kind of stuff.

Anyway that's C-41 film, what about kodachrome? - another type of old film I run across now and then. I know C-41 won't work for that. I've used caffenol before as an experiment. The results weren't awful but weren't great either. Getting the rem-jet off was a chore. I've seen plenty of advice on removing rem-jet so I can figure that out, but what's the best way to process it?