PN etiquette

<p>Recently I, as usual, I and others have made efforts to respond to requests for technical help on PN. Perhaps I am being more crotchety as I get older, but I have been annoyed by a couple of instances, such as this thread:</p>

<h1>Lights for Step and Repeat at Festival</h1>

<p>where a newbie asked a question, a number of PNers responded and nothing more was heard from the OP in 10 days. In a further instance, I PMed someone re their view camera inquiry and at their request sent them a PDF of an article I had written - no response, although the person in question has posted numerous times on other threads. Of course behavior like this comes with the territory on the WWW, and of course the people concerned are now on my personal blacklist, but I was wondering if there is any way of trying to encourage basic good manners among those raising questions on PN. </p>

<p>It's probably just a lack of internet etiquette in general [or a healthy dose of amnesia]. Maybe posting guidelines on the front page where it's easy to see for newbies</p>

<p>David, on PN it is called terms of use. Good manners is not a precondition for being around here. <br>

The terms of use are formulated as follows, which we all of course respect at all times:</p>

<blockquote>

<p>"Postings that attack another person's motivation, intelligence, or character degrade the quality of the discussion and discourage thoughtful comments by others. There are many places on the internet where you are welcome to have moral or political arguments, however, in almost every case, photo.net is not one of them. Neither is this community a place for you to harass, abuse, threaten, or otherwise bother other members,.."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not answering is not an abuse, but it is most certainly bad manners.<br>

</p>

<blockquote>

<p>nothing more was heard from the OP in 10 days</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>It is almost as common to never hear again from the OP. C'est la vie I think, malheureusement. </p>

<p>>>> Of course behavior like this comes with the territory on the WWW, and of course the people concerned <strong>are now on my personal blacklist</strong>, but I was wondering if there is any way of trying to encourage basic good manners among those raising questions on PN.<br>

<br>

For simply not responding to you? That's an odd and harsh response. I would first suggest looking within, perhaps taking a look at your own behavior.</p>

<p>Ignore that, David.</p>

<p><em>... odd and harsh response ...</em><br>

Huh? If people ask for a favor and don't say thanks, you can bet I'm not going to do them any more favors!</p>

<p>The terms of use are minimal requirements. I agree with David that something should be done to encourage members to reply to comments, suggestions and other replies made in good faith, and particularly in the case of replies directed to the questioner. In cases where we are simply adding to a discussion and not replying directly to a question raised by another or by the OP there is less, or no anticipation, of a response and a need to acknowledge it.</p>

<p>We all have met situations similar to David and I think that the quality of Photo.Net would be considerably enhanced if a part of the terms of use provided en incitation or encouragement similar to:</p>

<p>(Suggestion) "Posters should remember that those replying to a question often apply considerable effort to answer the question and to aid the member posing it. This positive interaction strengthens the value of this site. The poster has a responsibility to normally acknowledge the responders comments, whether he or she agrees or not with them."</p>

<p>It's probably more of a problem with the fact that etiquette tends to be going straight into the ground more and more in favor of more casual customs relating to conversations [even online ones]. Some may not realize that it is inherently rude to not respond to helpful comments</p>

<p>"If people ask for a favor and don't say thanks, you can bet I'm not going to do them any more favours!"<br>

+1 David! cb :-)</p>

<p>I agree with David's point.</p>

<p>I do suspect that when a totally new PN member asks a question, he may set materially the same question on several sites. He may even have got his answer - or an answer that satisfied him at least- and ceased looking at any responses before you even wrote yours . In short he might not have even read what you wrote, never mind failing to thank you. I think there are people out there who don't think or don't care that others are wasting time researching and composing replies to their question. They just want an answer and preferably one that doesn't say that they need to give more information first.</p>

<p>But whilst this is IMO at least poor manners, its hard to tell who's going to behave poorly or not , and who's a polite guy who will thank you and- more important maybe- go on to be a person who helps others here. If you don't recognise and accept the risk then answering questions on an internet forum may not bring you satisfaction. Or set yourself a rule not to respond to people who joined today, or whatever. I don't respond to people who ask me questions off forum unless I am familiar with them from here. Reason is that its a forum and more than one person should be able to benefit from the answer. But also because most questions coming that way are complex and it takes a while to respond. I got fed up spending that time and never hearing from the questioner again. So now I ask them to put their query on the forum, and in general they don't bother, presumably because what they want is one answer , not to have to read and digest a dozen answers that might conflict or get debated. </p>

 

<p>I agree with David. In the B&W: printing section, a few people asked questions about their prints near the end of 2015. Several of us asked to see examples or provided answers when those were easier to judge without seeing the prints in question. The OPs never came back to post examples or give more insight into their problems. Some of us have a fair amount of expertise in printing and could really help. We're left wondering if the person really wanted help and are still foundering, in which we would prefer to help so as to keep someone interested in darkroom work. Or were they doing a drive-by and finished their class and no longer care? </p>

<p>Happens all the time. I find it annoying. The least they could do is let you know whether you've answered their question, or how they plan to use the information.</p>

<p>The one I remember: a few years ago a guy posted here-- he was missing a part for an old Graflex rollfilm holder, a little left-hand threaded bolt. I have an old holder I use for parts, so I sent him the bolt, ate the postage etc., made a trip to the post office. Never heard a word from him. So it goes. </p>

<p>If a person doesn't have "basic good manners" when dealing with others face-to-face, odds are that any expectations for that person to have them on pn are really pie in the sky. The bottom line is that expecting someone to respond as one ordinarily would do is setting oneself up for disappointment.</p>

<p>Let's see if I can understand. You went out of your way to do someone a favor, got no response, and are wondering if this is bad internet behavior.</p>

<p>It is not. Actually, it's pretty decent. Bad internet behavior would be several hateful messages calling you a jerk and every other despicable thing, sending you a virus to screw up your computer, and posting (alleged) nude picture of you. Swatting, too. (Google it.)</p>

<p>So, if all you got was silence, I think you should just let it go. Of course, as others have mentioned, there's no need to feel any obligation towards these people in the future.</p>

<p>(I will check back in 10 min. to see if you've left a post thanking me for my contribution.)</p>

<p>@ Marc: Since you apparently attach importance to receiving a word of thanks, here it is - THANK YOU MARC! Furthermore, in response to your implied question "Let's see if I can understand. ..." I am happy to attest that, yes, you do have the ability to understand simple written statements in English.<br>

After that I have greater difficulty in following your train of thought. Close study of my OP will reveal that I accept that ingratitude sometimes comes with the territory when communicating on the web, but the idea that bad manners are in fact "pretty decent" I find strange. Of course silent ingratitude is fairly minor compared with other forms of human behavior, such as murdering children, or even flaming etc., which some people find distressing, although I personally don't - I respond to obscenity with exaggerated politeness, tinged with a little sarcasm, just enough to ensure that the flamer either realizes what a fool they are looking or bursts a blood vessel - use of obscenity = restricted vocabulary = moron.<br>

@ All respondents: Thanks for your comments - I was interested to note that clearly many people find ingratitude annoying in a certain way (the aim of my OP was to establish this) but find there is little that can be done to combat the problem beyond ignoring ungrateful people in the future. The hidden effect of this behavior in my case is that I make sure I respond to requests for help only if I can give an answer from memory - I have quite a large personal library of photography books but feel no desire whatsoever to spend time researching in it to answer questions on the web unless the questions interest me (which they sometimes do) or I know the effort will be appreciated.</p>

<p>First of all, may I quote : 'A gentleman is never unintentionally rude' (with apologies to all the ladies on PN). That said, there do seem to be fewer and fewer gentlemen (and, I am sorry to say, gentle-ladies too) around - I feel that basic good manners is not only taught, but learned from precept and example, so meeting rudeness with rudeness is ultimately self-defeating.<br>

Rudeness is met with so many times in daily life (shop assistants, local government, public transport - not to mention <em>hoi-polloi</em> on the streets), it would be nice to feel that one can come to sites such as PN and be pleasantly surprised. After all, imagining and imaging a photograph is an action which requires thought and planning - perhaps some of that thought could be diverted into treating others better.<br>

To end with another quote, this time from Robert Heinlein : 'Bad manners should be the only capital offence'.<br>

Tony</p>

<p>I can think of a fairly easy technical approach, here. The site already has the ability to notify users (if they so opt in, on that thread) when a thread has been updated with new comments. Perhaps a 1-week timer can pay attention to threads (maybe just/especially in the beginner's forum?) that are started by User X, but show no additional comments by User X ... and send that user a simple email saying, "On Month, Date, Year you created the Beginner's Forum topic "Which Lens Should I Get For Pet Photography?," which has received 12 comments from other users, but NO further comment from you. Please review the thread you started to see if any further contribution from you would be appropriate."<br /><br />That same message could be sent to the OP weekly for 30 days, before abandoning all hope. </p>

<p>I've grappled with the same issues as David describes, but I have to wonder if we're all going to give our knowledge, expertise and experience away for free to benefit thousands of lurkers shouldn't all those thousands thank us?</p>

<p>This is a rhetorical and a bit of a simplistically hyperbolic question, but you get back what you give and that is the satisfaction you helped some lurker who just may do the honors and thank the person giving of them self where the OP could be seen as an initiator for that to occur. </p>

<p>But yeah, I'ld like someone to ask specifically what I did to get a post processing treatment on an image, not to rub and sooth my ego, but to show they're genuinely interested in how to do something where I can share what I've learned and feel I've helped and made a connection with someone of common interest. It's one of the reasons I don't participate in post processing threads as much.</p>

<p>Hey, David, thanks for thanking me. My post was 50% tongue-in-cheek. But, 50% not.</p>

<p>Well said, Tony. Good manners and gentility, in general, seem to be on their way to extinction. </p>

<p>Growing up in this generation has made me come to realize just how unintentionally rude most of us are. Manners just aren't taught or held to be as important as they were. It's not that younger people are trying to be rude, they are just ignorant of politeness and customs [not to make an excuse, it is completely asinine to not thank people for contributions]. I'm pleasantly surprised when someone on PN acknowledges a comment I have given, because most younger people will just give you a short thanks and be on their merry way, or not even say it at all. It's like thank you cards, they're getting rarer as people see them as less necessary [but anyone who has their head screwed on right will attest that they are the right thing to do]</p>

<p>Sometimes the system works:<br>

http://www.photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00dkOC?unified_p=1<br>

A newbie asked a question, got 2 helpful answers and expressed his thanks - all within 47 minutes!</p>