Please please help appraise

Last week I asked for an appraisal of some old Leica stuff from one

of my friends I play table tennis with. Today I took some pictures

of it. Please help identify and appraise these items. They should

be: Leica SLR with rare factory installed timer, Leica SLR, Nocton

(I think screw mount), Canon Lens and a Culminar. The stuff is from

her dad. She wants to keep one body and one lens so she could

display it in her living room. So one body and two lenses are for

sale. She wants to sell the most valuable items. Thanks ahead of

time to anyone who takes the time in appraisal of these items.

 

 

 

 

Here are the pictures.<div></div>

Here is another view<div></div>

Here is the other Leica SLR with the Voigtlander Nokton<div></div>

Rene,

It would be helpful to list the serial numbers and pictures of all the items.

 

The camera shown is not an SLR but a RF (range finder). It appears to be a Leica IIIF RD ST. We need more informato in order to help you.

The Nokton. Someone here said that a screwmount Nokton is worth around $1500. Is this a screw mount Nokton?<div></div>

Another view of the Nokton<div></div>

A view of the Nokton mount<div></div>

Another view of the Leica. I believe the serial number is on top.<div></div>

The Culminar<div></div>

Last picture<div></div>

oops. One more of the Culminar<div></div>

The two numbers on the top of the leicas are

Leica 661605

Leica 423347

I located a leica database on the www.leica-camera.com. It appears that the two Leicas are:

 

Leica IIIF 661605

Leica IIIC 423347

 

She keeps repeating that the IIIC is rare because of the Factory Installed Leica Timer.

Leitz used to have a policy of "converting" older models to essentially newer models by installing the "upgrades" on request. The self timer I believe was standard on the later III-f cameras but I'd guess that it was added to the III-c after the date of manufacture. I don't recall ever seeing a III-c with a self timer.

 

The Steinheil Culminar was not a very good lens. I believe it was only 3 elements compared to 4 elements in the Leitz Hektor and Elmar lenses.

 

The Nokton does indeed look like a Leica thread mount lens but I have no idea as to its value.

If not for the serial number on the first one, I'd say they were both IIIf models. The wind knob, flash synch dial and even the self timer are all consistent with a later IIIf. But the serial number is one for a 46/47 IIIc. Could it be either a IIIc which was upgraded or a IIIf that's had its top plate switched with a IIIc.

Since both bodies have flash synch they'd both be III-f cameras. If the serial number of the older one is in the series allocated to III-c cameras than I assume that the camera was in fact factory converted, with both flash synch and self timer added to it.

That's definitely not a IIIc shutter speed dial.

The closer I look at the photos, the odder these seem.

 

The the first camera has the serial number for a IIIc, and also the shutter speeds of either a IIIc or an early IIIf (30, 40, 60, 100...), but it has the top engraving of a IIIf as Leica/ DBP/ Ernst Leitz/ GMBH/ Wetzlar/ Germany.

 

The second camera has the serial number of a IIIf, and the shutter speeds of a IIIf (25, 50, 75, 100...), but its top engraving looks like Leica/ DRP/ Ernst Leitz/ GMBH/ Wetzlar/ Germany.

 

I think all IIIc cameras had the "DRP" and no "GMBH", while all IIIf cameras had "DBP" and "GMBH".

 

If it's a converted IIIc, they also must have re-engraved it. Or maybe they made a IIIf and used an old, previously unused serial number, or mis-engraved the serial number. If the first 4 were actually a 7, it would have been allocated to a IIIf with a self-timer. But then the shutter speed sequence wouldn't have been consistent.

And the camera with the self timer is a IIIf and it's not rare by any means.

Ok. Now I'm getting confused. Does it appear as if the two cameras have been swapped or is the Leica database claiming it to be IIIC in error?The late photographer has emigrated to Germany from Czechoslovakia and lived in Nurnberg while waiting for the visa to come the the USA. I believe it was sometimes around 1950 or so. I think that the cameras were purchased during that time.

For what it is worth, I have a Leica IIIc factory converted to a Leica IIIf Black Dial, serial number 484xxx, by addition of flash sync and self timer. It is the "sharkskin" model, which is worth a premium. It dates to 1949-1950. Because of the conversion, it is difficult to price it exactly, but McKeown, the most respected pricing guide, has the price for a IIIc being $265-375. (I can't recall if that recognizes the sharkskin premium) I paid $359 for it, purchased from Adorama, a major New York dealer. It was (and is) in excellent shape. That price is body only, no case, no lens. The purchase was about one year ago. I hope this helps.

So I gather that the IIIC body should go for about $300. How much does the canon lens go for? Also is the Nokton really worth around $1500?

The Nocton in LTM is indeed rare. I'm not sure if it's worth $1500.

 

You might want to contact Tarmarkin who has a yearly auction of rare Leica items. He'd know.

 

Or you could put them up on ebay and see what happens.

<p>I hate to sound schoolmarmish, but it's "Nokton" with a "k"; googling

for or attempting to auction off "Nokton" may well be more fruitful than

doing the same for "Nocton".</p><p>This lens has a stellar reputation

and it's not so common. The names "Voigtländer" and "Nokton"

have recently been [legitimately] recycled by Cosina in Japan. Cosina's

"Voigtländer Nokton" 50/1.5 is an excellent lens but its market

value is a lot less than that of the original; it could be a good idea for

the owner to announce her lens as "made in Germany" or similar.</p>

Peter is correct of course. Sorry for the error. I just think faster than I can type.