Please help on this: M7 for cold regions?

Hello everyone

 

I'd be very grateful if some of you could help me address a couple

of issues, now that I've finally decided to buy a Leica M. I had

posted this several months ago, you can check it if you are

interested (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?

msg_id=005IvL). You're welcome to visit my folders too, of course.

 

Here are my issues, and please re-direct me consequently if these

things have been covered at nauseam already (though I couldn't find

much):

 

I'd really like one camera + one lens to have along all the time

during my trips in the Arctic and in the mountains. I can't afford

to take off my gloves and change lens when it's 20C below freezing.

And yet my current outfit F100 + Tamron 28-75 f2.8 is pretty heavy

(>1300 g), cumbersome and most of all needs 4 AA batteries every 2

rolls of film when operating at subfreezing temperatures. I know

that AA Lythium batteries should perform better but at least here in

Europe they seem to be as difficult to find as the Holy Grail! Put

this together with my sensitivity to the Lecia-charm described in

the previous post and you'll easily guess what I'd like to buy:

Leica M7 + Tri-Elmar and a lot of Provia 100F.

 

I say M7 rather than M6/M6TTL because I find it very convenient to

work in aperture priority, so that I can concentrate on composition

and focus. Before someone suggests that I may not like the

rangefinder solution, I'll say that I've tried it on a Bessa R2 and

found it rather pleasant.

 

What I'd love you to help me through is this:

 

- how does the battery life of a M7 compare with that of the

M6/M6TTL? Is this an issue?

 

- what happens when the battery runs out in an M7 (besides loosing

light metering capability, of course)? Can you keep shooting in

Manual mode at any exposure time (like, I think, on the Nikon FM3a)

or can you only at one pre-set exposure time or not at all?

 

- I do know how to set depth of field based on marks on the lens

barrel (have a Hasselblad too) but how does that work on the tri-

elmar? I mean, doesn't that change depending on focal lenght

selected? Is it an enjoyable travel lens for my purposes as far as

you can see?

 

Any other thought will be equally appreciated, of course.. and to

repay your kindness I'll attache this composition of changing light

captured through my office window at 70 degrees North.. Thanks<div></div>

Were I to venture out of the sub tropics of South Florida to go to an arctic environment I'd want a camera that was totally non battery dependant. The M7 has an electronic shutter. The M6 just needs a battery for the meter. I'm not sure why changing the lens would require removing your gloves? One solution would be to wear relatively thin lightweight gloves under a pair of much heavier gloves. You could take those outer gloves off briefly without freezing your fingers. They also make gloves for hunters that allow the index (trigger) finger to poke out as required, and then back inside again.

or take an MP if battery dependency is an issue.

Well, thanks for the first answers. I do know that M6 and MP can be operated with no batteries with the obvious exception of the light meter loss. But since I like to work in "A" mode, I was more attracted to the M7. Unless someone tells me something which makes it unsuited to my needs, for instance that the M7 would run out of power significantly faster than any M6/MP, so that one spare battery for a 20 days fieldwork still wouldn't be safe, AND that the loss of battery in a M7 causes the camera to stop working at any speed and mode..

 

As for the gloves, Al gave meaningful tips, but after hours snowscooter driving and activities in -20 or -30 C my fingers go numb even when wearing sealskin mittens. My experience in cold weather suggests me to reduce the need to search (among the equipment), handle and operate tiny things unless absolutely necessary. That's why I'd still prefer 1 camera+trielmar.

M7 will operate on 1/60 and 1/125 _without_ batteries, all other speeds are electronically controlled and thus require batteries. Otherwise I have absolutely no idea how the M7 batteries will fare in such freezing conditions.

 

I guess you (and some other forum members) find AE convenient but if using Leica M rangefinders has taught me one thing is that you do not need exposure automation. Sure it can be convenient but more often I find it distracting and erroneous.

 

If you use your (manual) camera often enough you begin to judge light level/exposure very precisely - especially you learn to predict the differences of the sunny side/shade, you learn to observe light changes, you learn to "track" light. If it's in the shade, just click two f/stops more open and voila - YOU decide on what you are exposing.

 

But this feeling/sense can only be developed by using a fully manual camera since it forces you to think and observe - believe me in no time it's no thinking at all.

 

My first camera was a fully automatic AF F801/N8008 thingy with a slow zoom - an oversized Point And Shoot. My next stop was a manual focus AE only Nikon F3 with three primes and 80-200/2.8 zoom. Now most of the time I use a completely manual M6TTL with two primes, 35 and 50. And this last combination is the one I am most confident with that I will achieve the desired results - including exposure no matter what the situation.

 

So I would strongly advice you to consider an M6TTL or even MP since I believe that proper exposure is not such an "evasive" capture as some would like you to believe. And you must consider M6TTL/MP for two reasons - one is that in the arctics? snow is abundant and AE and snow don't mix well - you have to compensate exposure, the other one is obvious - dependence on batteries.

 

But caveat - the above on exposure only applies if you use your cameras regularly.

 

Regards, boris

Apart from the camera body, let me weigh in on behalf of the Tri-

Elmar- it's a stunning lens 3 in one, all razor sharp and contrasty

and often overlooked (I think) because of its (relatively)slow

speed. A tip- if you can, buy the body and lens at the same time

and make sure that the lens when attached brings up the

framelines correctly as you click between focal lengths. Some

individual lens/body combinations (even brand new)are finnicky

and you have to work them to make the correct framlines appear

as you select the focal length. While not a huge deal in regular

conditions, where you're going I wouldn't want to be spending

any time on it.As to the body, some people think the M7 is the

ultimate rangefinder, while others feel it was just the camera that

came after the M6ttl, the last great mechanical Leica. I'd hate to

go all that way and have an electronic shutter freeze on me,

that'd be no fun.

you should check, but i think battery life with the m7 will be even

worse than what you are exoeriencing with the nikon. again, you

should check with leica yourself. a m7 with chronic battery

failure is much less good than an mp. i also think it may be

necessary to get cold weather lubricants for either camera for

best performance. leica will "tropicalize" or "arcitize" cameras

upon request.

Dear Andrea,

 

I take pictures sometimes in extreme environments. You can go easily out with a battery dependent camera in -50 degreee of Celsius, if You can protect the battery itself. The Tri-Elmar, or a zoom lens is a good idea, because to change the lenses in the subzero dry air could be dangerous. The cold camera/lens can collect all the humidity of the breath! It will be frozen promptly. Same problem with the viewfinder (too close to your eye)

 

I vote to the MP, or an M2/M3 with the Tri-Elmar. Or, what I use now, the small Ricoh GR-1, and a Rollei 35S for cold backup. Anyway, I use a small Gossen light meter, what I keep in my pocket close to my body. I use a full-mechanical Fuji GW690 too...

 

Sooner or later You have to pull your gloves off: you have to change the film!

And do not forget the protecting filter...

 

Regards: Gyuri

 

http://forum.fotoklikk.hu/modules.php?set_albumName=album84&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

What others have said above: A TTL or MP will suit your needs for sub zero temperatures. If you take an M7, I'd bring a dozen batteries just to cover yourself. Nikon made a cold weather battery pack for the F3 that was made to keep inside your jacket and allows shooting at the temp range you mentioned. Not sure if they have made subsequent models for later cameras. Cheers

Great pieces of advice from all of you, which I will likely follow (saving also some money as compared to the price of a M7). But why are many of you suggesting a TTL? Isn't a M6 even better from this point of view (less electronics), beside the fact that I don't use flash?

 

Someone also suggested to check the camera+trielmar match as problems may arise with selection of right frame. Does this exclude an Internet deal (e.g. ebay) or is there a safe way out? Finally, is a 0.72 fine with the tri-elmar to prevent the cut off of the lower right corner? thank you all very much indeed

The new Tri-E has complicated DOF markings that work for each focal length. You have

not said how you are going to be carrying your camera. I would hesitate to change focal

lengths on a Tri-E at those temps. I live in the North and the cameras get very stiff at very

cold temps such that focusing gets to be very difficult. The complex movements of the

glass elements in a Tri-E would be pushing your luck. At least consult Leica AG about Tri-

E operation at these temps before investing in one. Also when it is very cold, it is also very

dark. Are you sure an F/4 lens is going to work? I was shooting the other day at noon and

was at 1/60 and F/2 with 400ISO film. True it was during a winter storm but up here it is

more often dark or getting dark in the winter. I use a Noctilux a lot.

 

At these temps batteries simply stop working unless you have some way of keeping the

camera warmish. I tuck the body into my outer layer and have the lens sticking out. That is

good for a couple of hours. Otherwise regularly switching the batteries with warm ones is

the way to go. I have thought about modifying an F3 cold pack which puts two AA cells in

your pocket but I am just not out long enough to worry that much about it.

 

Some newer M cameras have shutter curtain material that does not work as well as the old

stuff in extreme temps. It stiffens up and the speeds go all funny. I have newer TTLs that

seem OK so perhaps they switched to a better cold temp material recently. Test, test, test!

 

The larger shutter dial of the TTLs and M7 are much easier to use with gloves on. At

extreme temps the moisture coming from your skin will freeze to the camera making

viewing difficult. I am sometimes reduced to scale focusing and guesstimating the

coverage for this reason.

 

I can't think of anything else.

Dear Andrea,

 

Congratulations, I think you have made the right choice for your needs, although I could imagine that you might need a faster lens (I would probably choose a summilux 75/1.4) to complement the 3E in the low light you must work in during a very long winter.

 

I propose that you e-mail Leica at Solms in order to get information on the need for special preparation of your camera and proposals for prolonged battery life in the arctics. In the old days it was possible to get a sepecial treatment of mechanical parts for arctic temperatures - I don't know if this is still possible or necessary. But Leica could probably be most interested in helping you to find the proper equipment - and perhaps Leica could also use some of your excellent pictures for promotion purposes.

 

Good luck.

Uhmm, I've just found some images of tri-elmars that people are selling on ebay. On the latest version there seem to be DOF-marks with steps for the 3 focals, I guess it takes some practise. On the elder versions there seems to be no mark at all (?).. And as for the relatively slow f4: it's true, up here (70 degrees north) in can be pretty dark, and I love shooting northern lights, i.e. a subject which demands fast wide angle lenses. But for that scope, and in a second time, I'd have bought an affordable wide by Cosina/Voightlaender.. You're giving me a lot to think of.

 

Anyway, I also have seen the difference in the shutter dial between M6 and M6TTL.. something to really take into account, as the small dial was among the things that were pushing me towards the M7..

 

Don't know how much you care, but a decision will have to be made soon, as am going on an expedition to one of the wildest and most glacier-covered places on earth in exactly 2 months..

The M7 can and does run on Lithium batteries but they are very small ones and would tend to run down quickly in extreme cold. Rotating with a set of warm ones kept in an inner pocket would work but taking your gloves off to change them, especially with the M7's fiddly battery compartment, would not be something you'd relish. Ditto loading and unloading and M Leica with heavy gloves in the cold.

 

I'm going to make another suggestion: the Nikon FM3A. It has "A" mode but also the shutter functions at all speeds (not just two like the M7)without batteries. It also accepts a remote battery pack, which plugs into the camera's battery compartment and a cord runs to the pack (takes 2 AA's including Lithiums)which is kept inside your parka where it stays warm. The FM3A is about the same size as a Leica M7, even perhaps a tad smaller and lighter. You could pick up any one of dozens of good zooms of smaller bulk than yours, considering you're willing to go to f/4 for the Tri-Elmar and are not insisting on an f/2.8 zoom.

If I were going someplace like this I may only take one lens, but no way would I chance taking only one body.

Beautiful view you have there BTW.

Another point further to Jay's, if you are going on an expedition, you NEED to bring a back

up body. The back up doesn't need to be the same just able to take the same lenses. So an

M7 and a TTL would be fine. Heck, bring a Bessa R2. Just do not go to a remote, unlikely

to visit again place without back ups!

I assume over 20 days you may have to take your gloves off to perform some bodily functions unless you are wearing a kilt. Couldn't you insert a fresh battery (in the camera) at that time instead of waiting for it to go completely dead?

I have had the same thoughts as you. I opted for an Hexar RF, based on the fact that I have never had problems with my Canons. Well, this winter I got serious problems with my Mamiya 645 - it stopped working, and even worse....acted as if it was working, but in fact it was not. The mamiya problem was easily fixed with an external battery pack. On the hexar the battery level is about half after a couple of hours in below -20 c without human contact, and when the batteries warm up, they are up to full level again - so for me this is as issue....but not a big one (it will only affect me on winter overnights).

 

Electronic cameraes have problems in the cold - but so does mechanical cameras. On a workshop I just attended (where my mamiya malfunctioned), they said that on a previous workshop the shutter on one of the hassys froze, but the bronica functioned well.

 

Well, the Konica does not have an external battery-pack, so my solution is zip-lock bags. By keeping the camera a little warm, I avoid the whole problem - so I just have to protect it from condensation.

 

A friend of a friend just crossed Greenland on skis - he used a GR21...and I am sure he just kept the camera warm.

 

(BTW: I live in Norway and my main activities are high-mountain skiing....and I would stay away from batterydependant leicas if they get problems when outside florida as claimed earlier....but I am sure they don't. And to test your equipment, just put in the freezer.)

Just saw your picture and reread your post: you obviously live in Norway. I have no problems getting Lithium batteries here, so I am sure you could just order them in the town where you live. I'd be very surprised if you cannot find them in Tromsø.

 

I do most of my skiing in Jotunheimen. By the coast you will have more humidity, so batteries will die faster and mechanics will freeze faster. (The zip-lock solution is still hold I think).

 

And...you also need to protect your gear againt violent temperature fluxations. My brothers EOS lens cracked on a winter trip because he did not pay attention to this fact. (Again - would be solved if you kept everything warm(e.g. between you outer isolation layer and your shell jacket in a zip-lock bag or two).

 

The only problem then is to keep the zip-lock-bag with the camera in place.....luckily my pockets are big enough!

Hei Christian, if you live in Norge perhaps you know the place shown in the photo I attached above, as it's the place where I live: Tromsø. And my Arctic "roaming" is precisely on Svalbard. Anyway, I also had problems with my Hasselblad: not the shutter but the focusing screen tends to get totally dark due to misture freezing among the hundreds of invisible rings that form the (lower side of) the screen itself! Leica Ms are not feather-wheights but I want one for its size that doesn't require a huge photo bag. I'll seriously think of a M6TTL... if someone wants to sell his.. vi ses

As a long-time (but now former) Chicagoan, I'd look into Jay's recommendation. And along with it, I'd consider the compact manual focus Nikkor 35 - 105mm zoom (with a "macro" setting -- not genuine macro, of course). I have and use this lens, and it's a good one. Not quite as wide as you'd like (and perhaps not as fast), but in the Artic, haven't you got room to back up a couple steps?

 

And Boris, if you regard the N8008 as no more than an oversized P & S "thingy," you ought to take a closer look. And if your opinion holds, and you find the thingy sitting in a box at home, send it here, won't you?

Sorry, I do not live in Tromsø and have not been there (it is nothing I am proud of - I have not been further north than Lofoten :-( (plans to drive up this year....)). I am from Trondheim and live in Oslo - so I am a "weekend warrior".

 

Just a thought: maybe you should try to call the photographic department at Lofoten Folkehøyskole, or even Paal Hermansen - I am sure they are full of experience regarding this.

I cannot imagine the exposure is going to change so fast in such conditions that a manual camera would be a hindrance. Get the M6.

Living in Fairbanks I can tell you the M7 quickly cools off and

becomes inoperable on the tiny batteries in exteme cold. Oddly

enough, the cameras that work best in cold weather are

electronic, though, IF you can keep the batteries in you parka.

Nikon used to make a remote cord for the 8008s, and you just

kept it inside your shirt where it was nice and warm, and ran the

cord and dummy battery to the camera. Then the electronics

timed the shutter more accurately than even a manual shutter

which tends to get sluggish at extremely cold temps. I used this

rig shooting the Iditarod one year, and was quite happy. It

performed much better than my F3s. M6s do get cold. The

shutter literally freezes if you cold soak it to 40 or 50 below, F.

Nikon FM2s are good, barring the possible increase in shutter

times, which can kills slides if you don't know it is happening.

One problem with Leicas and gloves--small controls are even

harder to manipulate with gloves than those on most SLRs. All

in all, though, the cold isn't nearly as big a problem with the

cameras as it is with the hands, and finding the right glove

combinations is essential.

I'd recommend a TTL over the M6 for its improved, and newer, electronics. Also, as John said, for the easier-to-use-with-gloves-on shutterspeed dial. If you go for an M6, get a later incarnation. cameraquest.com has a date/serial number reference table so you can check a particular camera's date of manufacture.

 

A good machinist could probably make an adapter that would allow the Nikon F3 cold weather pack to work for the M7. I believe they take the same battery. Cheers