Please help me choose a 6x6 camera

<p>Good afternoon (my time!),</p>

<p>I have been photographing for years now. I have lots of experience in 35 mm film photography, and recently in digital full frame. However, recently I find square format very appealing, and often end up cropping rectangles to squares in post processing. After a lot of thinking, I decided to switch from my current 5D to an analog 6x6 system.</p>

<p>Bearing in mind that I:</p>

<p>a) cannot afford a Hasselblad;</p>

<p>b) want higher quality and more features than a Holga can provide;</p>

<p>c) shoot mostly people posing, portraits, and streets with or without people...</p>

<p>...what 6x6 camera would you recommend? I have _almost_ decided on a Yashica D or a similar TLR system, but would love to know your opinions on this or any other 6x6 system, including SLRs. One of the very important factors in my bias towards an old TLR is that it draws attention. I have managed to get into many conversations regarding my current 35 mm Yashica GSN, which often ended in an interesting posed photo. A TLR would attract, I think, even more attention from passers-by, which is a good thing.</p>

<p>But much (really much) depends on your opinions, both regarding the choice of TLR / SLR, as well as individual models. I am completely new to medium format photography, so I would love to hear also any other advice, opinions, warnings, or absolutely anything that you think may be relevant in my current position.</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

<p>The Yashica D is likely least expensive among the Yashicamats because of its three element lens and separate shutter cocking and knob film advance, but still a decent enough picture taker. I find that my Yashica D delivers acceptable sharpness starting at f5.6 and by f8 it is very sharp. The other models, Yashicamat 124, Yashicamat 635, Yashicamat 124G all have 4 element lenes and a crank film advance that also cocks shutter at the same time. One caveat: for portraits these cameras do not focus close enough for really tight portraits. Also the perspective with their 80mm lenses is the same as using a 50/55 with 35mm. If you don't mind extra bulk, consider the Mamiya TLR system which has interchangeable lenses. The older C22 and C33 are the cheapest. The C330, which was the last model, also took interchangeable focusing screens. Therre is parallax compensation and lenses ranging from 55mm to 250mm.</p>

<p>I have had the Yashica and Mamiya twins and did not keep either for long. The best twin I have had is a Rollei f3.5 from the late 50s. I still use it. It is especially good with natural light and a tripod. Other 120 favorites include a 60s Bronica with Nikon lens and numerous Hasselblads. My least favorite 120 cameras were anything made by Mamiya, including the RZ and the earlier 645. Their lenses were not as good for B&W as those from the German makers or from Nikon. I know there are lots of Mamiya fans and no offense is intended, lots of disagreement expected.</p>

<p>I'm in a similar position as Adam - I would very much like to get a medium format camera that shoots 6x6. I had my first taste of medium format with a Holga and now would like something slightly more serious, yet I can't really afford much. I'm also a fan of mechanical/manual gear so an older camera would suit me perfectly. Sorry I don't have much to add, other than to say that I'm watching this thread with interest.</p>

<p>I would recommend a Voigtlander Bessa-III 667 which can give you 6x6 or 6x7. Its price is $2250 per adorama. I do not have one, but tempting.</p>

<p>The problem now is that "older cameras" are really old and increasingly fragile.Mix in the high cost/accessibilty issue with repairs and you're looking at diseconomy, not fun. If buying cheap and regarding busted TLRs as disposable makes sense, then go that route. If not, then I'd consider spending a little more and getting into the Bronica SQ series cameras. You can also think about going up to a Mamiya RB67--big, tough, mechanical, plentiful and cheap now relative all other medium format system cameras.</p>

<p>Contrary to Gary's fearful statement, older cameras of good quality will last another 30+ years with another CLA in another 12 years or so. Good quality = Hasselblad or Rollei. I recommend a Rolleiflex 3.5E late , a digisix light meter, a CLA and Maxwell screen put in by Harry Fleenor, cost around $ 1000 total.</p>

<p>For the $1000 suggestions and up you can easy get a Hasselblad. Elms are real cheap right now..... then you will have what you said you want to start with.<br>

But if you are trying to stay under $200 then the twinlens reflex cameras are you best bet. Sometimes that are at flea markets etc for $30 and less.</p>

<p>I have a Yashicamat 124G which I bought new in the 80's and recently had a CLA on. I find when I take it out in public now it generally gets some comments from people wondering what I'm doing with such an old camera. The SLR's don't get the same interest.<br>

The pictures with this or my recently acquired Mamiya C33 can be very high quality - the limiting factor is more probably me than the cameras.<br>

I went away from the Yashicamat to a SLR due to interchangeable lenses and the ease of using a polarizer or grad. (went to a Pentax 67, that gets some comments about how big it is, but not the same interest as the TLR) <br>

Any of the tools can work fine - it's more a matter of getting out and using them.</p>

<p><br />If you want to get a decent TLR without spending a lot of money, I'd say check the auction sites and look for a Walzflex, Wardflex, Beautyflex, Ciro-flex, Ricohflex, Yashica A, D, or 635, etc.. Those are all decent quality TLRs, and are fairly reliable (because they are relatively simple). Those kind of TLRs go for under $20 in decent condition.</p>

<p>They mostly have three element lenses. Yashicamats. Autocords, etc. have four-element lenses, which are better, and in decent condition they go for at least $60.</p>

<p>I have a couple of 1953 Wardflex TLRs (Taiyodo Beautyflex) which I use often.</p>

<p>Here's a couple site with some good reference info:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.tlr-cameras.com/TLRs.htm">http://www.tlr-cameras.com/TLRs.htm</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.mattdentonphoto.com/cameras/box.html">http://www.mattdentonphoto.com/cameras/box.html</a></p>

<p>In my experience, there are 3 things that can be nearly impossible to fix: 1. dents that are major enough to distort the shape of the door, or interfere with focusing. 2. lenses that have been over-cleaned, and made permanetly hazy. 3. focus mechanisms that is completely stuck. So it's worth asking the seller about those things- just ask them not to touch the lens. A few tiny scratches, however, won't make any noticeable difference in your photos.</p>

<p>Problems like the shutter being too slow or sticking on the slower speeds are fairly easy to fix.</p>

<p>Make sure you get one that still has the little fold-up magnifier in the viewfinder. That makes it so much easier to focus.</p>

<p>Also, make sure it can take 120 film. Some American-made TLRs need 620 film (same film, but smaller diameter spool).</p>

<p>You can get a pretty good Hasselblad system (used) for a lot less than the 5D. <br>

Try looking here:<br>

http://www.david-odess.com/sales.html<br>

I've got a 5D and I find it's a terrific camera.<br>

I've also got some Hasselblad stuff and it works wonderfully well.<br>

Good luck with your photography adventures.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Hi Adam,</p>

<p>I first went to medium format with TLRs, and I've never regretted it. I have six TLRs, but my favorite is the first Autocord I ever bought. They are small, light, take great pictures, and yes, they do attract (positive) attention from people. The only reason why I chose to buy a Bronica SQ system (square, but much cheaper than a hasselblad) was because I wanted to be able to shoot different films and change focal lengths when needed. This is after five years of shooting TLRs. I don't regret buying the system, but I do miss the ease and portability of the TLR. I think you'll really enjoy it -- just try to buy the best you can afford (Yashicamat, Yashicamat 124, Yashica 12 or D, Minolta Autocord, Rolleicord, Rolleiflex), and go from there!</p>

<p>I suggest you take a look at modified Kiev 88 CM cameras (with MLU).<br>

"Arax" is the trade name of one of the modifiers.<br>

It has a 6x6 back (option) and you can find very good lenses for this system (Pentacon 6 mount).<br>

This option is especially important if you want a lower price for the performance.</p>

<p>It entirely depends on how much you use the camera. I started my foray into MF with a new YashicaMat 124G in the late 70's. It lasted 2 years before it gave up. I had the opportunity to use Hasselblads and have used them ever since. If you look around, you can probably scrounge up what you need:</p>

<p>500 ELM and Waist Level Finder (WLF), Charger: $130-200 (#s with shipping)<br /> 80mm Chrome: $200<br /> A-12 back: $125<br /> Total: $450-$550 ballpark.<br /> You likely will need to do CLA on the body, back, and lens eventually, but you could probably get going for less than $500. I would also spend another $30 or so to get a 9V battery adapter for the EL/M, instead of the rechargeables.</p>

<p>Other alternatives to consider might be a Bronica or Mamiya, or maybe a Fuji RF, but I think you're going to pay as much as you would for the Hasselblad. The thing going for the Hasselblads, that make them under-valued, is that there are just so many parts available. It's a buyers market right now as people move into digital. The good news also is that parts are pretty easy to get, there are great service people out there who know what they're doing, and once you do a CLA on a body or lens, it should last you a long time, and also adds to the resale value if you should decide to sell them at some point.</p>

<p>You should be able to get a hassy 501 with 80 and 150 lenses for $1000. Or you can get a Rolleiflex 2.8 TLR for less....beautiful.</p>

<p>If durability and image quality are high on your list, it is still hard to beat Hasselblad.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

<p>Simple, but expensive; Rolleiflex 75 3.5 F Planar; Rolleiflex 80 2.8 F planar.<br />The best.</p>

<p>You can find Rolleiflex SL66 with lens for about 500 bucks. Good cameras and there's a dedicated online group that put out a CD of old manuals, etc.</p>

<p>I've gotten a lot of looks and comments with a Brownie Hawkeye but I that's not exactly what you're looking for. I bought a dirty Yashica MAT124G that cleaned up to nice condition and you should see the Velvia transparencies, shot a few rolls and it also get the looks and comments. The meter is dead.<br>

I also have a Rollieflex Automat Model 4 that needs a good cleaning and new leather but it works. It'll look like an old camera with new leather.<br>

I think what I want is a Mamiya RB67 or an older Hassy because I really like a polarizer and want a little more than 75-80mm but no time soon.</p>

<p>I would give serious consideration to the Bronica SQ series. I used to own its big brother (the 6x7 Bronica GS-1) and loved that camera. I would say that those Bronicas are nearly as good as Hasselblads (which i've shot with as well) but much cheaper...and, personally, I would prefer the flexibility of an SQ-style SLR over a TLR. You get interchangeable lenses, backs, and finders; I always found it convenient to be able to carry one back with color film and one with black and white.</p>

<p>Oh, and you can always shoot with a waist-level finder. That should attract nearly as much attention as a TLR would.</p>

<p>I only try to speak from experience and try not to be bias when it comes to giving advice. Starting on the cheap side you can get Ciroflex's, Ricoh Diacords, Argoflex and Yashica A, D, C's at fairly cheap prices. Any of these stopped down to f8-11 will give very nce results especially for people shots. Up the ladder are the Rolleicords, Rollei Automats and Minolta Autocords. Any of these will be great if they are up to snuff mechanically. One of the best deals out there is the Mamiya C series (C22, C220, C33, C330) These cameras are truly professional TLR cameras and there lenses are really, really good. You can focus them down to 1:1 with certain lenses for fantastic close-up work, they have a built in parallax correction guide and a good variety of interchangeable lenses. I like the later "black" lenses(little better coatings) for the Mamiya the best, but have taken some great pictures with the older chrome lenses also. Truth is if you can swing a 500C or 500EL Hassy you will be set for life. I Still use my 500C that I bought 25 years ago and it still makes me smile. Oh, I have a Rollei 35E and Rollei 2.8E and the lenses on both those cameras are simply the best. The only problem with the later Rolleis with Planars, Xenotars and even late coated Tessar lenses is that the demand has driven the price beyond what most of us can afford or in my case willing to pay. I also think the 124G, which I still have, are also over-priced to some extent. I have owned everyone of the cameras I mention above and many more besides, but I'd have to say the cheapest 6x6 systems camera out there is the old and very reliable Mamiya C33/C330 Professional. Heck, I have and old Argoflex 40, in the original box with flash in its original box that takes picture every bit as good as the early Yashicas and it didn't cost me hardly anything. Now, that really makes me smile! I guess what it boils down to is just how much you are willing to stimulate the economy?</p>

<p>About 5 or 6 years ago I purchased a Mamiya C330f with several lenses. I think I ended up spending around $500 for the body with a 55 (or 65), 80, 100+, 180, and 250mm lenses. It worked very well for me. Changing lenses can be tricky sometimes if you get in a hurry. This system can be put together over time. I would start with the 80mm normal lens. Going from memory the black lenses are more desirable than the silver lenses.</p>

 

<p>I watched this forum for a while at the time and read about the Ciro-Flex TLR made in Delaware, Ohio. I ended up acquiring one of these also, for about $20 with shipping. The camera did not keep enough tension on the film spool so the take-up spool didn't wind the film very tight. The result was overexposure along both edges of the film after I took the film out of the camera. I suspect I could put some sort of spring on the film spool to solve the problem. Otherwise the camera produced decent pictures.</p>

<p>I'm going to have to dig out both of these cameras to complement my D300 for the coming fall foliage. They are a lot of fun. They do produce positive interest. If you don't have one now, you'll need a light meter (or a modern 35mm camera for it's built-in meter) as both these cameras are totally manual. I started with Ilford XP2 Super 400 film and guessed on exposure with fairly decent results.</p>

<p>Good luck,<br>

Mark</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Mr. Podstawczynski....</p>

<p>Have a look at: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=730969">http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=730969</a> </p>

<p>which shows many views of a bus from about 185 meters. Tap on any thumbnail to get a larger view and camera information. You can compare the sharpness of the various lenses. There are a few 35mm views and one 4x5 view but most are various medium format. The Rolleicord V has a nice coated 4 element Tessar design lens of good quality and can be had for about the same money as a Yashica 124G. The Rolleicord Va and Vb use the same lens but are more expensive on the used market. </p>

<p>All the views are small cuts of pixel per pixel scans at 2900 PPI with a Nikon IV. This means that any lens than can put above 57 lp/mm on film is not going to show any better than one that just makes that limit. One of my Rolleicord V does make about 50-55 lp/mm on film, the better one does 55-60. The Yashica 126G does 45-50, but that is still good. If you use a flatbed scanner like an Epson 4180 rated at 4800 PPI you will only get about the same real resolution as the Nikon IV (2750-2800 PPI) if everything is just right. At 2900PPI you can print a 21.75" x 21.75" at a full 300PPI. So why go above that limit when buying your first MF camera? </p>

<p>Tom Burke</p>

<p>I enjoyed my Mamiya C330 and the advantage of having interchangeable lenses from 55mm to 250mm is extremely useful. I would not sell the 5D though.</p>

<p>Used Rollei.</p>

<p>I bought a Super Ricohflex in about 1956 or 1957, but even for a kid, it wasn't sharp enough. So in January 1958 I bought a new Rolleicord Va, the cheapest Rollei. It still works, and I took one of my best ever photos with it a couple of years ago. No failures, no maintenance, long fallow periods since the 70's, but it's still great. Since then I've bought (and kept) several used Rolleiflex 2.8's, and one new one, all excellent.</p>

<p>A used Rolleiflex is the most underpriced camera on the market. Sharp lens, quiet reliable shutter, flat negative plane, easy to use, easy to hold still down to 1/15.</p>

<p>Now I've switched mostly to Leica because I can't focus a reflex camera as well as I used to, but the smaller film size is a real sacrifice. </p>

<p>I'm speaking, of course, to black and white film, the forte of 6x6. </p>