PLEASE HELP - CANON 40D PHOTOS NOT GOOD NIKON D60 BETTER?

<p>Hi Everyone,<br>

I am just getting into DSLR photograpy and am starting a course in early January. After reading many reviews, I decided to go with a mid-level camera and chose the Canon 40D which has received many great reviews, looks like a prosumer camera due to its size, and is offered at great pricing right now. A photography magazine rated it a "Steal for 2008".<br /> <br />I added a Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 DiII Autofocus Lens and thought I had a pretty good kit. On December 27th (this past weekend), my cousin and his wife came over to our home with a Nikon D60 and 18-55mm kit lens. Sitting in the same place in our dining room, I took two shots. One with their D60 and one with my 40D. Both cameras were set to *Full Auto* mode. I was shocked at the results. The D60 photo appeared to be properly color balanced and very crisp (especially when magnified to 100%). My 40D shots looked red and blurry. <br /> <br />I began scouring various forums and read that the 40D has had issues with autofocus. So, I quickly took my camera back to the retailer (although I'm 5 days over the 30 day return period) and they exchanged it with another brand new body. I obviously cannot replicate the same scene with the subject that was here for dinner :) but the red color looks the same and it still does not appear to be as sharp as the Nikon photos when enlarged to 100%.<br /> <br />I am not sure what to do. I don't know if it's a lens issue (the Tamron lenses also have some reviews stating that some copies are "soft" and need to be sent back to Tamron for calibration), or perhaps it's the 40D?<br /> <br />I have made up a web page with the sample images I mentioned above, and also performed two focus tests using the focus test charts found on the Internet (I don't know how good these are). The focus tests were done as instructed (camera mounted on tripod at 45 degree angle, white balanced, focus test chart flat, etc.) 40D set to center AF point and I used a timer to avoid camera shake. <br /><br />If you could please visit the following URL and offer your opinions, I would appreciate any feedback:<br>

<a href="http://www3.telus.net/rico/40DImages/Canon40DTest.htm" target="_blank">http://www3.telus.net/rico/40DImages/Canon40DTest.htm</a><br>

<br />Thank you so much!<br /> </p>

<p>Rico, from my experience, a photography "system" will always produce the best results. By that I mean, a Canon body with a Canon lens will produce superior results to a Canon body with a 3d party lens. In the film days, mixing and matching lenses, bodies, film etc was fine. But with the advancing technologies, you will lose functionality and/or IQ by using third party lenses IMO.<br /> <br /> A more practical suggestion is to calibrate the WB for the two bodies and then compare results. Canon tends to AWB at the "reddish" end of normal, while Nikon is more neutral. That only accounts for colors though, not blur.</p>

<p>I think you are worrying about a lot for nothing. Your focus test looks fine and reasonably sharp at the plane of focus as does the shot of the sweets. I see no issues with your lens performance.</p>

<p>Nikon has a well regarded flash system implementation and nuances of color rendition are more of a question of "taste" than of one being perfectly correct and the other being wrong.</p>

<p>The 40D is a much more capable camera in terms of "shooting performance" when compared to the D60. Your 17-50mm f/2.8 lens has a HUGE advantage in it being a constant aperture f/2.8 lens. If you don't yet recognize how valuable that is compared to the kit lens, you will eventually. I would take in-hand camera shooting performance and a faster aperture lens over your friends D60 and kit lens, any day. And that's not because of a Nikon vs. Canon issue either.</p>

<p>My recommendations...</p>

<p>1. Don't worry about these little differences from a single shot that you are seeing. Your camera is very capable and your lens is sharp enough to accomplish any photographic goal you might have.</p>

<p>2. Learn to take control of what your camera is doing, and of what happens with your photos after you take them. You are on the right track with taking a class.<br>

- Shoot RAW, get a good RAW converter (Lightroom).<br>

- Learn Photoshop (elements or otherwise), especially control of color, contrast, sharpness and tone. Color differences go away in the digital realm. You can make the Nikon photo look like the Canon or vise versa.<br>

- Learn to control the balance of ambient light with the amount of flash, and how they interrelate in the Canon camera world. I think that may be part of what you are seeing in the differences between the Nikon and Canon shot, both for color rendition and sharpness. Read this article to help get started... http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/<br>

- Worry less about things like sharpness or other peoples cameras. These things only matter to us photographers and only make a small difference in photos. Non-photographers will appreciate your photos only for the photos themselves, and generally not for how "sharp" they are or aren't or what camera they are taken with.</p>

<p>Anyhow, you made good choices in what you bought, and I don't think you have a lemon. Use it, and stop worrying!</p>

 

<p>If you're going to shoot in full auto mode and you find the D60 is giving you better results, then I think the obvious answer is to exchange the 40D for a D60 and be happy.</p>

<p>Canon's default white balance under tungsten lighting is very warm. All the EOS bodies are the same ans are set in "tungsten" mode for tungsten photofloods (3200K), not domestic lighting (closer to 2600K).</p>

<p>First problem: your 40D was not in full auto mode on the portrait. The EXIF data in the image shows that it was in aperture priority mode. When using flash in Av mode the camera sets the shutter speed for ambient light. Your shutter speed was only 1/20th of a second yet your focal length was 50mm (80mm equivalent). You needed a shutter speed of at least 1/90th of a second to eliminate sharpness robbing hand shake.</p>

<p>The sweets shot had a better (but not ideal) shutter speed of 1/60th, but an aperture of only f/4 versus the D60's f/5.6. Any close up/macro shot benefits from a smaller aperture with more DoF. Having said that, if I zoom into in focus sections of the two sweets shots, I see more detail/better sharpness from the Canon. It's slight but unmistakable, and probably has nothing to do with the bodies and everything to do with the lenses or some other factor such as hand shake.</p>

<p>Second problem: the 40D portrait image was recorded in the AdobeRGB color space while the D60 was recorded in sRGB. Unless you know what you're doing and have properly calibrated your computer and printer for an AdobeRGB workflow, use sRGB. Simply discarding the AdobeRGB profile from the Canon portrait JPEG results in a more neutral shot, though this is secondary to the real cause of the color balance differences in both the portrait and sweets shots (see below).</p>

<p>Third problem: the D60 image is actually too blue. But the key difference in the color balance between the two cameras, on both the portrait and sweets shots, goes back to the exposure. The D60 shots, with a faster shutter speed and an ISO of 200, were primarily illuminated with flash light which is colder. The 40D shots had slow shutter speeds and an ISO of 400 which means ambient light, which was warm here, played a much larger role in the Canon shots. Shot with higher shutter speeds and lower ISOs the Canon images would have been colder just like the D60 shots.</p>

<p>Fourth problem: the Canon portrait shot was made closer to the subject which means less DoF, and it looks like the focus may have been off. It's hard to tell for sure in light of the slow shutter speed and hand shake. If there was a focusing error it's impossible to tell whether it was user or camera error without knowing AF mode, selected AF point, and user technique. But at this point I wouldn't bet against the camera (no offense). Having said this, the errors did not completely destroy the image detail, which is partially recoverable using unsharp masking.</p>

<p>Fifth problem: the D60 shots are actually underexposed, but it's hard to tell if that's the camera's fault or a limitation of the built in flash given the ISO setting and the scene to be illuminated.</p>

<p>You don't need to replace or service your 40D, you don't need a Canon lens, and you certainly don't need to trade brands. With due respect, learn to use the camera and you will get fantastic results.</p>

<p>Just exchange the Canon 40D for the Nikon D60 if you only shoot in auto mode. Colors on auto mode are vary from one manufacturer to another, just like TVs they're all different in default setting. You can adjust the 40D to look like the D60, and vice versa.</p>

<p>Thanks to all who have replied thus far, particularly Sheldon and Daniel Lee who have provided some very detailed and informative feedback - thank you, an no offense taken at all. I know I have a lot to learn, thus I value your feedback and my interest in taking courses.</p>

<p>Please keep in mind that my goal is *not* to simply shoot in Auto Mode. I intend to take various photography classes which may lead to my getting into semi-professional work if I feel I have some talent. The reason I mentioned Auto Mode is because my family members only know how to use that mode on their Nikon D60. For curiousity sake (because I just got my Canon 40D) I thought I would take a photo in auto mode with their camera and compare it to the 40D in auto mode.</p>

<p>To me, the images looked better from the Nikon. A family member commented on the 'red hair' of my subject in the Canon shot and jokingly commented that they would 'fire me' from a paid job based on that photo. The Nikon did show the true 'salt & pepper' hair of the subject.</p>

<p>Daniel Lee commented that I was not in full auto mode on the 40D but I could have sworn I was. I can't see where in the EXIF info it indicates I was in AV mode. But in any event, the image I did take in full auto on the 40D looked the same as what I have posted on the webpage I mentioned.</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>After a couple of years of messing around with many body/lens combos I have finally stopped at the 40D. I also have the Tamron 17-50 along with Canon 70-200 F4L and 400 F5.6L. The 40D/Tamron combination have produced some of the finest photographs I've ever taken, partly because of all the learning I've done along the way, and partly because of the quality of the equipment. The one thing I have found out with 100% certainty in my photographic journey is that most of the errors you make are not the equipments fault, it is probably human related. Stick with your excellent combination of equipment and learn with it. Also, don't focus so much on what is written around the internet. I've experienced no focusing problems whatsoever with the Canon, and the Tamron is also right on the money. You can make yourself nuts with other peoples opinions. Once you get more experience you will really appreciate your excellent equipment.....good luck, Rich </p>

<p>Daniel: Most impressive post!</p>

<p>It is more than obvious that you have buyer's remorse and don't understand yet how to get the best out of your camera and you are nervous because some casual observers think the D60 produces better results. All the camera manufacturers use their own profile to interpret the RAW data the sensor produces. It is very well known that Nikon is much more aggressive with their JPEG renditions than Canon. The 40D Canon JPEG shots will look very different than the D60s for that exact reason. YOu can and should adjust the variables (like contrast, sharpness, picture style, etc.) if you inted to shoot JPEG.<br>

Or, the obvious answer is to switch to Nikon and be done with it.<br>

BTW, most serious photographers shoot in RAW mode and interpret their own version of a photograph - total freedom, no worry about WB, sharpness, etc. etc.<br>

You have much to learn, you should do some serious reading to understand all these facts - a good starting point is this forum, but you should also pick up some books on exposure.</p>

<p>Hi,<br /> <br /> The first thing that occured to me when I saw the shots is: he was obviously in Av mode, and he does not realise that balancing ambient light with flash (leading to what is called "dragging the shutter") is done automatically on the Canon in Tv and Av mode, but has to be enabled ("Slow Flash") on the Nikons.<br>

<br /> The second thing: Canon has slightly warm Tungsten setting: this is why you adjust it using either custom white balance, or easier, Canon DPP software (Digital Photo Professional, supplied with the camera free of charge). My advice, btw, is to shoot RAW as soon as you can get yourself to do it.</p>

<p>The third: he does not know how the focus system works.<br>

<br /> The fourth: he may be confusing all the autos (e.g. auto focus spot selection with auto exposure with auto white balance, etc). Natural mistake, the manuals are not that intuitive.<br>

<br /> The fourth: he should not worry. As well as being a professional photographer, I teach photography and I teach digital camera use, so I see dozens of people in each class with Nikon or Canon cameras (depending on the course), and all of them learn all these things in just a few hours. But you do need to learn this stuff.<br>

<br /> Out of these two excellent cameras, the Canon is a superior body. Yes, you need to learn some stuff, but it's not that daunting. And btw, I think one needs to worry about lenses more than cameras.<br>

<br /> Good luck and have fun with your camera!<br>

<br /> Michael</p>

 

<p>Don't worry so much about the gear. Take the Time to learn how to use it to best meet your needs.... i started like yourself... lost in the equipment... then i stopped, sat back and just spent time shooting shooting shooting... you will get the hang of it.... :)</p>

<p>Mat,</p>

<p>I know where you are coming from - but I think you really do need to do learning learning learning before, or at least in addition to, shooting shooting shooting. I have many people on my courses who after 10 years of shooting finally figure out how the focus system works, or slow flash - and that is a pity!</p>

<p>Michael</p>

<p> </p>

<p>99% of the time it's a problem with the tool user not the tools. </p>

<p>" Canon has slightly warm Tungsten setting: this is why you adjust it using either custom white balance..."<br>

This is something you must adjust to if you plan on doing alot of indoor tungsten work.</p>

<p>I have 3 very different Canon slr bodies and the tungsten is way warm on all of them. The 40D also does not handle awb very well. My 5D and before that my 20D all did a better job when shooting jpg on awb. (something I don't recommend, learn raw).</p>

<p>Raw is one of the best features available to us followed by the ability to custom white balance with a few button presses. Much easier than in film days.</p>

<p>All considered, the 40D is one of the best values out there right now for a mid level DSLR.<br>

<br /></p>

<p>" Canon has slightly warm Tungsten setting: this is why you adjust it using either custom white balance..."<br>

This is something you must adjust to if you plan on doing alot of indoor tungsten work.</p>

<p>I have 3 very different Canon slr bodies and the tungsten is way warm on all of them. The 40D also does not handle awb very well. My 5D and before that my 20D all did a better job when shooting jpg on awb. (something I don't recommend, learn raw).</p>

<p>Raw is one of the best features available to us followed by the ability to custom white balance with a few button presses. Much easier than in film days.</p>

<p>All considered, the 40D is one of the best values out there right now for a mid level DSLR.<br>

<br /></p>

<p><i>"...one thing I have found out with 100% certainty in my photographic journey is that most of the errors you make are not the equipments fault, it is probably human related.one thing I have found out with 100% certainty in my photographic journey is that most of the errors you make are not the equipments fault, it is probably human related."</i><br /><p><br />You are understating it by a *lot* -- most likely 99.5% of the time the errors are grey-mattered related and NOT equipment issues. Grey matter (brain power) means you have the capability/knowledge of the entire system of photography -- to UNDERSTANDING how to use your equipment, the capture, to the final post processing; where here, the OP does not at all and is a tyro, at least one who wants to learn.<br /><p>Finally, the Canon 40D does not have AF issues.</p>

<p>Agreed, no "AF issues" other than people not understanding how the AF system works. The manufacturers do not make this easy by using confusing terms and symbols, eg the AF point select symbol looks just like the metering mode symbol... using terms like "AI", which few mortals can decode (AI means "Artificial Intelligence") - I never cease to be amazed at such user-confusing issues.</p>

<p>For beginners, here is a simple (simplified only a bit!) summary:</p>

<p>AF becomes easy once you realise:</p>

 

<ol>

<li>There's a setting for WHERE you focus, and a setting for HOW you focus.</li>

<li><strong>WHERE</strong> is all about the focus points: </li>

<li>"All points" means the camera chooses the closest object covered by a point. </li>

<li>That may not be what you want so it is OK to use just one point, move that over the object you want to have sharp, and then focus. </li>

<li>As a refinement of that, you can keep your finger on the shutter after the focus beep, then recompose a bit, and then shoot. (we call this "focus-recompose-shoot"). </li>

<li><strong>HOW</strong> is about how the camera behaves when trying to focus (regardless of the 'where'):</li>

<li>This can basically be set to "stop when you have achieved focus" (terms like "One Shot" or "AI Focus are used for this) or "keep trying forever" (terms like "AI Servo" are used for this). </li>

<li>The former is best when you want control, but the latter is usually best when you are shooting moving objects like sports.</li>

</ol>

<p>Basically, that's it. Nothing to it - except after understanding, you need to practice. Yes, there are subtleties beyond this of course, but they are subtleties.</p>

<p> </p>

<p >[<a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=1630733">Mark HOLLOWAY</a> <a href="http://www.photo.net/member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="http://static.photo.net/v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub4.gif" alt="" /></a>, Dec 30, 2008; 06:38 a.m. </p>

<p >Daniel: Most impressive post!]</p>

 

<p>I will have to send that. Way to go Daniel Lee.</p>

 

<p>other thoughts-<br>

nothing has been said about wjhether or not YOU setup the dslr to take good quality jpegs. and nothing was said about whether or not HE setup his dslr to take good quality jpegs. any dslr does not comed from mthe factorfy setup to take a goodjoeg. the usewr has to do for himself. aside from the differences in the settings between the 2 dslr, you are not saying what he did to setup the camera.<br>

also, if you are coming from a p&s there is a world of differnce. when you get a P7s and take it out of the box, add battery and memory card, you should be able to take pretty good shots as is. but, with a dslr, even in full auto everything, the dslr requires that you set it up first and it also sometimes your help in taking the shots. you have to know when to intervene with its auto process. this photgraphic knowledge the user gains over time. and by time i mean years.<br>

below is how to setup a dslr for takeing a good quality jpeg. once setup DO NOT CHANGE THE SETTINGS. if you want/need more color add/ change the color in post processing not with your preset settings. i setup my dslr 4 1/2yrs ago and have not altered my settings since, and the dslr has worked fine. next if you are coming from a p&s do not expect the exadgerated color of the p&s, the dslr does not do that. it was built to give accurate color.</p>

<p >to setup for jpeg with new camera- </p>

<p >there are 4 functions that may be adjusted. the color mode(or whatever it is called) saturation contrast and sharpening. i assume you are using a calibrated monitor. simply select a scene immediately outside your house. hopefully it has lights darks and colors. all settings in the camera are at zero or default. adjust color mode first then check the shot on the monitor, decide if ok, if not adjust reshoot and recheck. go on to each of the other adjustment settings. the object is to get the monitor scene as close a possible to the real scene outside. do not be concerned if the finished monitor scene has enough color for your tastes; the amount of color can be adjusted in pp. you are going for accuracy between the 2 scenes. the real and the one on your monitor; when done the 2 scenes should look identical or as close as possible. do not hurry. the adjustment process could take several hours. but once done leave the settings alone. at this point you know that the camera will accurately make the best most accurate pics possible of the scene. after i set my dslr up 3+ yrs ago about, i have not ever moved the settings. It took me 2-3 hours to setup my dslr.</p>

<p >if i needed/wanted more color or whatever that is what pp is for. i also try very hard to do my composing in the camera and not crop heavily in the pc. my thinking is why buy a 10mp camera and crop away 40%. you are then no better that a 6mp that is not cropped. besides which the cropped 10mp is noisier.</p>

<p >i would not adjust the contrast to get more DR. to me you just have to get used to the idea that digital has DR limitations. i shoot slides for 32yrs; the DR in digital and slides is about equal. i never had a problem. While DR limits exposure, lighting should/can be adjusted to compensate. if you want more headroom in your camera for taking jpegs, use adobeRGB color gamut. it gives slightly more headroom.</p>

 

<p>I have the 40D and that Tamron lens - the best combination I've ever had. With that camera and that lens, I'm getting the best photos I've taken: ever (ok, *I* take some of the credit too).<br>

Shoot in RAW, set the wb in the computer. Thats what I do now. I say now because I never shot in RAW much but I shoot in RAW all the time now which is so much better than shooting just jpg (ok, I shoot RAW+jpg).<br>

Canon feels the warmer tones for tungsten wb setting is better...I guess they feel users of their products dont know any better - I dont know but as mentioned all of Canons cameras have a warmer tone than the competitors.<br>

Shoot in RAW, or learn how to set your custom white balance but setting your CWB all the time would be a pain in the sensor so shoot in RAW - you're more than likely going to be processing the image in the computer anyway...start with the best file.</p>

<p>Rico,</p>

<p><em>But in any event, the image I did take in full auto on the 40D looked the same as what I have posted on the webpage I mentioned.</em></p>

<p>I assume you mean the sweets image which was in a program mode? The 40D sweets image also received much more ambient light exposure than the D60 sweets image. On the sweets the 40D was set to ISO 400 versus 200 on the D60, and the aperture was f/4 versus f/5.6. That's 2 stops greater sensitivity to the warm colored ambient light, about the same as the 2.5 stop greater sensitivity in the portrait shot. Regardless of whether or not the 40D's AWB is warmer than the D60's in an identical shooting situation, this is not a white balance issue. The D60 images were exposed using flash, the 40D images were exposed to a large degree by ambient light. Trust me, if you could return to that exact same night, dial down the ISO to 200, and set the camera to use 1/90s at f/5.6 with flash, the images would have the same color as the Nikon images. And there would be zero hand shake blur.</p>

<p>You were in a program mode on the sweets, but I can't tell which program mode (P, green square, one of the little pictures on the dial) with the software on my notebook, which is what I'm on at the moment. So I can't comment on why the camera chose what it chose.</p>

<p><em>To me, the images looked better from the Nikon. A family member commented on the 'red hair' of my subject in the Canon shot and jokingly commented that they would 'fire me' from a paid job based on that photo. The Nikon did show the true 'salt & pepper' hair of the subject.</em></p>

<p>Ignore it. People like to think that photographic quality comes from a camera (it doesn't), and that they made the best purchase or brand choice. So little competitions and digs like that appear from time to time.</p>

<p>To me none of the images look 'better'. The Nikon shots are underexposed and too cool, and the Canon shots are too warm, plus the portrait shot suffers from hand shake. Honestly if I had to post process one or the other I would choose the Canon because the lighting/exposure is better once you edit away the color cast. But this has nothing to do with brand and everything to do with exposure to ambient light in the scene.</p>

<p>In this situation I would have most likely bounced an external flash off the ceiling and shot RAW so that I could precisely control color balance later. That can be done on either camera, it's not a brand issue and it's not a choice auto mode can make.</p>

<p>I know a DSLR is a significant purchase for most people and that you are nervous you made the "wrong" choice. Relax. Cozy up with a good intro book on photographic technique. And start studying. Your camera and lens are actually better than the D60 combo you tested against in terms of specs, but it's not really about the camera and the lens so much as it's about you. You said you don't want to live in auto mode, so don't. Next time there's a little competition or test you can blow away the most expensive camera on Earth in auto mode by making choices with your camera that no auto mode can make.</p>

<p>BTW, thanks to those who complimented my first post.</p>

<p>Listen to Daniel Lee Taylor, my friend. </p>

<p>You have a severe case of "analysis paralysis". </p>

<p>The 40D is the best value for the money of any camera out there. Stop agonizing over nothing. Go out and learn to use your camera and SHOOT! The only way to learn your camera is to SHOOT! If you are that anal over the quality of your shots then what in the heck are you doing buying Tamron lenses? Tamron is a good lens, but not in the hands of a beginner. Get Canon "L" series lenses and your breath will be taken away with what the 40D can do.</p>

<p>Now, having said all that, I will admit that Nikons do have better low-light AF than Canon, so if that's what you're going to be shooting, then buy a Nikon and get some sleep.</p>

<p>I think it's more like...shoot..learn why the shoot look like s***...shoot again....learn again...shoot again...until finally AHA...then you can sleep.</p>