Platform bashing

Lately it seems that the digital forum has become more of 'bash

Microsoft' forum with at least a single post in any computer thread

offering some pop psychology put-down of Windows or the PC platform

in general. If I were a new photo.net member asking typical hardware

or software questions about PC's I would probably be confused, if not

a bit annoyed when some two faced schmuck forces a one sentence

hostile expertise into the inner workings of Microsoft marketing or

Bill Gate's religious tendencies. When somebody posts a question

about chromogenic film we'd occasionally get a thread-crap

like 'Chromogenics films, suck man, use real B/W film man." I think I

speak for the majority in that those responses were totally

inappropriate. I feel the same way about these.

 

With the upcoming intro of the G5 Apple I see the typical, cyclical

platform bashing with the introduction of any new Apple platform,

which happens every couple of years and goes like this; Apple

basically posts tests concluding the new platform is faster at

Photoshop, (duh) and suddenly they've concluded that every Windows

and x386 platform doing non Photoshop roles is obsolete. The G5 is

merely continuing the trend. When Intel introduced the Itanium I

didn't see PC users thrashing on Macs. Microsoft has commercials

showing a guy jumping around in a stupid butterfly suit, and Apple

has commercials showing users blaming hardware problems on Windows.

For the Nth frikken time, Microsoft doesn't frikken build PCs.

 

There is an infinite number of web-sites that go on and on about Bill

Gates this, and Microsoft that, and how Microsoft is screwing the

entire industry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yet I'd appreciate it

if photo.net weren't one of them. Working Professionally in the IT

industry for so long with mixed platforms alongside my photographic

pursuits I can safely say I know more about Microsofts business

intentions than you do, and the REAL intent of the anti-Microsoft

campaign. I'm now the guy that has to justify 5 digit License CAL

purchases to bean counters a lot more qualified than most of the

Microsoft bashers to offer analysis, and has enough Windows Server

deployments working alongside non MS platforms under my belt to run a

small country. Please feel free to submit a detailed proposal on how

your platform is going to do what I'm using cheaper and better. Then

explain why the typical corporate environment has more thin client

and network applicances than your preferred non Microsoft platform,

and how this is also a conspiracy. Until then, shut up, and get a

real job. I've seen 8yr olds work with layers in Photoshop, let alone

need a brand new computer to do it.

 

The majority of the tech savy here have concluded that differences

between the new platforms and operating systems in terms of digital

imaging are negligible, the rest being budget, platform familiarity,

and wading through the sea of diverse hardware for PCs. I'm not sure

why this isn't sufficient for some of you, but the Bill

Gates/Microsoft flame baits, and to be honest my own rebuttals on

Steve Jobs have no purpose in this forum.

The silent majority is with you Scott. You did a great job and spoke for many of us. Thanks!

I also want to back up Scott's post. I *am* a Mac user (and a Linux user) but some of the anti-MS rhetoric is just a bit too much even for my tastes. If you want to bash MS then go over to slashdot.org. I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms. :)

 

Computers are just tools. Use the one that fits your budget and allows you to do the task at hand. Even the N vs. C debates weren't this foolish.

I agree that complaints about PCs and MS *that are not

photo related* have no place in this forum. So do

pro-MS arguments *that are not photo related* such as

the ones in the third paragraph of Scott's posting.

Except for minor comments, one of which I made myself, I don't remember seeing much in the way of attacks on Microsoft in this forum. In fact your ad for that company seems to me to be making more of the issue than anything else I've seen.

Admittedly, I tend to skim over the mac/pc posts in this forum, but I feel like I've

seen more than one post which was started just to say "Ha - apple is lying, the G5

isn't going to be fast or really 64-bit anyway, why don't you all buy PCs." It also

seems

like I often see support for this statement in the form of "Yeah, and I deploy lots of

cheap, fast windows servers, so I don't know why anyone would buy a Mac for any

reason at all, I mean really, if Apple can make an enterprise-level database server can

their computers be any good for anything?"

<p>

A side point: Apple's ads show people blaming problems on "Windows

PCs" that is, both the hardware and the software. Their argument is that by making

both, Apple makes things easier. This is true for some people, and not for others,

but I don't think Apple is trying to imply that Microsoft builds PCs.

<p>

I use a Mac most of the time these days, and I have to say I can't stand blind

Microsoft bashing/excessive Mac evangelism anymore than anyone else can. I also

don't see much reason to spend hours debating benchmarks. What I don't get

though, is why Windows users always get so defensive when someone is happy about

using a Mac or when someone posts a question asking if they should consider a Mac

for their next purchase. It's a valid topic, because there are differences, and people

should be informed. I think the attitude that we should all use Windows because it's

cheaper and more commonly used is just as dangerous as the attitude that we

shouldn't use Windows because Microsoft is an evil monopoly. People should be

given the info they need to evaluate things based on the merits.

<p>

Scott, I think you make good contributions here, but I sometimes get the feeling from

a your posts on this topic that you would be happier if there simply was no discussion

of the Mac at all. I think that's about as fair as saying that we shouldn't discuss

anything photographed with Minolta or Pentax since "pros only use Nikon or Canon".

"I can safely say I know more "

 

This is your basic response to everything. Arrogant and self serving as usual.

"...Arrogant..."

 

Only if he happens to be wrong. He isn't.

Personally I respect Microsoft for what they have managed to accomplish. Quite frankly it's amazing a product as complicated as Windows functions as smoothely as it does on such a variety of hardware. Personally I dislike Intel's tactics more, and Adobe's pricing makes Microsoft look charitable.

Steven,

 

I suppose it is amazing that any operating system operates as smoothly as it does on many different hardware platforms. But keep in mind that all that hardware is designed so Windows will function on it. Otherwise they couldn't sell the hardware. Also, Linux functions equally smoothly on the same hardware.

It's relevent if you care where the personal compter industry is in, say, 5 years and beyond. If you know anything at all about Microsoft's technology, you'll agree that every product of theirs is designed witha a dual purpose in mind: First, to seduce the consumer with features and power at an unbeatable price. (Who cares if it involves illegal, strong-arm, monopolistic practices? I'm getting mine!) And second, to provide that power as part of a deal with a technological devil: control of every aspect of your pc - what you can do, what you can't do - and what's worse, what you'll eventually even think is possible to do.

 

I currently use a Windows PC because I don't have a choice. Soon, no one will.

I never was a Microserpent basher, despite my predilection for calling 'em Microserpent. But I useta enjoy Windows bashing.

 

Then I got WinXP.

 

I just ran out of reasons to bash Windows.

 

Deep breaths, Scott, deep breaths...

John, what you said falls under exactly some of the absurd things I've heard and agree with Scott about.

 

If Microsoft goes that way I sure won't support them but right now it works well and you've got good choices between Mac and PC for mainstream editing.

 

It's come to the point on this forum where i've got at least 6 or 7 people whose computer advice I don't even listen to anymore. They're totally clueless, and 4 or 5 of them are mac users. There a number of other marginally clueless people who parade about spewing out false information and boast useless things.

 

For every dirty story that you guys find about Microsoft or Windows based PC makers I can guarantee that PC afficionados (Macs and Windows systems are PCs) can find articles about stupid Apple behaviors on web sites as well.

 

Apple and their users can tout a temporary improvement in performance, but eventually something else will come out and push by the G5, most likely the Athlon 64 or Opteron, but it doesn't matter. You'll be better off realizing you should just pick what you like best and what you're most comfortable with and stop worrying about whether your penis will suddenly shrink [males only i hope] once AMD or Intel comes out with a better processor or Microsoft a better OS. It's the way of technology and the same theory has to be applied to digital cameras now, most people can't afford to upgrade with each evolutionary step in cameras so they have to pick what suits their needs and just ignore what goes on around them. Keeping up with technology is one thing, wanking off for it is just pointless and in a backwards sort of way thats what some of the people Scott is talking about are doing. If you just look at it for a second its like they're trying to hide their insecurity or lack of knowledge about what they're using.

 

Who cares!?

 

Of all the systems i've used, from OS 7.6 to 10.2.whatever, or from DOS to Win XP Pro there has never been a better time to pick a stable and fast operating system than now. But if you honestly think one OS has been notably better in the past, then you obviously never used both systems enough. Outside of Windows and Mac I've used a number of Unix systems, with various Linux flavors and a SGI Indigo 2 running Irix 6.5, I don't really find any of them to be better, although they're more suitable for certain things (in their time)

sorry for my late night ranting

Isn't Microsoft the major maker of software for the Apple OS? <P>As a businessman

who has run his own (small) business for 19 years, I greatly respect what Bill Gates

and Steve Ballmer (Microsoft), Thom Knoll (Adobe) & yes, poor old Steve Jobs (Apple),

have done in building their respective companies. That doesn't mean I am a fan of

how they have done it. No doubt they are all tireless cheerleaders and are also

capable of being complete assholes: that is part of the territory they have staked out

for themselves.<P>As someone who believes the rich and powerful need to be

involved in something other than exercises in greed, I HUGELY respect Bill & Melinda

Gates and their charitable work around the world.<P>If you want to run a small

country Scott, I am sure there are many that can use your help.<P>Scott, I am sorry a

little joke I made (in the Epson thread you started) seems to have raised your blood

pressure & I am sorry for you that your life and job are so stressful right now. I

sincerely wish that you could find a way to make the money you want to make by

doing what you enjoy doing.

Hm. Strange post. It's a worthwhile point that we don't need to discuss Microsoft's business practices except on the rare occasion when they have a direct impact on one of the tools used for photography. And hopefully the people who read threads with some of the bashing in them are able to pick out the rational and expert from the merely opinionated. I don't like all of the business practices, but I wouldn't bash everything about MS and I certainly use their products. I don't like everything about Apple, either, but I have also used their products. I bet most of the photo.net folks are somewhere near that camp.

 

That said, it's impossible to keep people from taking the occasional shot at the market leader, especially when there's been as much ink as there has been on MS. Hopefully, all the off-topic stuff can be kept to a dull roar so we can all discuss photography. Or at least go back to subtly mocking some of the stranger posts in the forums.

 

I will say, though you surely know more than most about MS's plans through your professional position, it's a little cheeky to state unequivocally that you know better than everyone else here. But I'll tell you what, I can help you out: I know less than you do, which makes you at least one person closer to being sure of it...

<i>

Working Professionally in the IT industry for so long with mixed platforms alongside my photographic pursuits I can safely say I know more about Microsofts business intentions than you do

</i>

<p>

Thanks for the laugh, Scott.

<p>

Mark Ciccarello<br>

Former Software Design Engineer<br>

Microsoft Corporation

<I>every product of theirs is designed witha a dual purpose in mind: First, to seduce the consumer with features and power at an unbeatable price. </I><P>

 

ALL products in EVERY industry try to "seduce the consumer with features and power at an unbeatable price". Back in the 80's and 90's I used to use products by Borland, Lotus, and Netscape. In every single case I switched to Microsoft because it was BETTER. On the other hand, I used to use Outlook but I switched to Eudora because, for me, it was better. It's called competition. <P>

 

 

<I> And second, to provide that power as part of a deal with a technological devil: control of every aspect of your pc - what you can do, what you can't do - and what's worse, what you'll eventually even think is possible to do.</I><P>

 

How is this different from Apple? Unlike Wintel, Apple doesn't even ALLOW competition - their OS runs only on their hardware. Microsoft runs on lots of hardware and even on non-Intel processors, e.g., AMD.

Scott

 

Linux is a FAR better OS than Windows, and an Open System OS at that.

I think what was originally eluded too was MS anti-competitve practices that have hurt the PC/MAC industry overall. It is for the very 'squeeze a stone for blood' reasons that businesses run thin client, i.e. for the uneducated it means simply that the application is stored on one device, usually a server, and yet the app. itself when executed runs on another machine at your desk. The short of this is only one license is required, and not a license per desktop PC.

 

Further more the fedral attorney Bois NAILED MS to the wall with MS begging for mercy in Thomas Penfeild Jacksons court during the Internet Explorer fiasco, yet TPJ couldn't keep his mouth shut,and for that reason only Gates was signaling WAY AHEAD that he thought they would win on appeal, as if to tell the government how the outcome should be. Saying anymore as to WHY things turned out that way, and for what reason would be slanderous, so I'll leave it open for the readers to figure out that one for themselves.

 

MAC's have a more complex digital architecture, and frankly the motorola processors are far superior to anything intel, et al can throw onto the market. Although I use PC's for business reasons, MAC's are the predominant, i.e. 95% used, in the photo-industry because they are intuitve, easy to configure, and produce results.

 

Although you are in IT and more versed with some aspects of MS startegy than most, you can't hold a candle to the likes on Robert X. Cringely, who has a weekly article on the PBS website. If you were to get into a debate with knowledgeable people of that stature, you would lose in a hard kinda way, and maybe the facts for once will provide clarity more than your obviously faulted penchant. As for your knowledge base I'm surprised you envoked your question and wrath on any PN forum especially considering EPSON printers of all things.

 

If the IT industry has left you so disenfranchised, hostile and angry, I suggest therapy. This is my most scathing flame thus far, Yet in the end I have done exactly what you have done here, and tried to prevent, isn't the universe perfectly zen?

Huey, for the last several years Motorola has been doing a good job of steadily falling behind. Apples wise move to IBM for their G5 processor shows that unlike you they were paying attention to this trend. Another trend is the large increase in the number of Windows machines being used in photography applications, it may or may not be 50/50 yet but I can guarantee you it's walking in that direction and has been (primarily) since Win 2k came out.

 

Also, the gross overstatement that Linux is better than Windows proves what you know. Better for what? under what situations? Ever heard the saying that Linux isn't an OS, it's a project? Good luck installing that on your new computer and having it autodetect all your hardware and start installing. Windows does a hell of a good job of this considering the range of hardware it has to support and the fact that it's meant to be used by the masses, not a select few with a hardon for tinkering. I admit I play in Linux too but I'd be foolish to say it's far superior to Windows.

Scott, I didn't see any Microsoft bashing until you brought it up in this post, which in turn resulted in more platform bashing and ranting, having little to do with the forum subject. Thank you very much.

<I>Linux is a FAR better OS than Windows</I><P>

 

Depends on your definition of "better". It's better for geeks and nerds. It's better for people who run web servers or who have extensive IT skills. It's not better for Aunt Martha or my massage therapist. Every year the Linux community has been saying that <B>THIS</B> is the year they will finally make a splash on the desktops of ordinary non-technical people and every year it doesn't happen. The reviews in the mainstream press of the Walmart Lindows offering have been TERRIBLE. Applications available for Linux such as Star Office and Gimp, are weak shadows of the Microsoft and Adobe programs.<P>

 

Saying Linux is a "better" OS is like saying that a Porsche 911 or a Peterbilt 330 truck are "better" than a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Sure - in a narrow application for specific intended users. But the Accord and Camry trade places year after year as America's best-selling vehicles specifically because they meet the needs of the mainstream <B>better</B>. And <U>that</U> is the bottom line - the "best" product is the one that the CUSTOMERS choose, regardless of what Linus or Bill or Steve or you or I say.<P>

 

I met Linus at Comdex a few years ago and even then he seemed to think that the more enthusiastic members of the Linux community were getting a bit ahead of the reality curve when it came to mainstream acceptance.

Gee, Scott, we'd all be better off if you spent your spare time out honing your photography skills rather than birthing this drivel.

I have nothing against Linux. I have as many systems running it as not. But even for a geek linux doesn't cut it. Linux is only worth the time to learn to config properly if you are earning a living off of it.

Well... my abacus will meet your slide rule by the flagpole after school. Then we can all take pictures and argue about something more interesting.