Photogrpahing Chartres Cathedral Interior w/ M3

Hello,

 

In July, I wil have a chance to visit the beautiful Chartres

Cathedral in France. I have some questions about available light

technique and I was hoping you could help me before I go

(seeing as I will probably have only one day there to get it right).

My gear consists of a M3 and 3 lenses: 35 pre-asph Summilux,

50mm collapsible Summicron and a 90 Tele-Elmarit. I may also

be able to borrow a Leitz Table Top Tripod with large ballhead.

 

1. I would like to shoot B&W, colour negative and colour reversal

film of the interior and the stained glass windows. Which film

speeds and brand would you recommend? (keeping in mind I'm

trying to keep the aperature of the 35 pre-asph Summilux f/2.0 or

up to help cut down on the softness)

 

2. I've have heard that people use the Leitz table top tripod to

brace the camera against the chest. Do you think this will help

with sharpness?

 

3. Metering for stained glass. Should I use the incident reading

from my hand held Sekonic L398 or should I take a reflective

reading from the Sekonic of the windows? I also have a

Voightlander ClipOn meter that I could use as well. In other

words, how do you take an accurate exposure reading for

stained glass?

 

4. I've read that in some cathedrals that they don't allow the use

of tripods on the floor of the interior. What are the reasons for

prohibiting them?

 

Thank you very much for any answers.

 

Erik

Bracket more than I did (I shot it with 200 Ektachrome and Tri-X in '84 with an M4-2 and an M-2). I braced the cameras on the pews and columns, as I recall. And take me along. ;<)

Why all three types of film? Personally, I'd be tempted to use 100 ISO as the best compromise. I don't have any particular preferences for makes of film, I use them all rather indiscriminately. If I shot slide film I might take a different view.

 

I don't know about the table top tripod idea. Personally, I'd take along a good strong monopod which is worth at least three stops in my experience and, for me at least, has never yet annoyed anyone.

 

Stained glass is the one case where reflective metering is always right because it's actually incident, if you see what I mean.

 

Lots of public places don't allow tripods and so far as I can see there are a number of different reasons. Some people think that only pros use them and they don't want you to compete with their postcards. Others think they're a safety hazard which can be true. Yet others think that if you're in a church you should treat it with some respect and not just as an object to be photographed. The list is endless.

 

I hope you get the shots you're hoping for.

I'd get a little bean bag or sand bag. Use it to steady the camera on pews and columns.

 

Get a multifunction meter like the Sekonic L408, which isn't too expensive. The 5 degree spot is perfect for stained glass windows. The incident meter will do you no good for metering stained glass, since from inside the church, the glass is the light source. In theory, you could use the incident meter for objects inside the church, but chances are you won't be able to get close enough to those objects to get a useful reading. An incident meter only works if it's lit identically to your subject.

 

Have fun. I'm jealous, though I should be in Cologne in September and I hear they have a nice little chapel there. ;-)

 

PJW

Erik, perhaps you will find some of the following suggestions and info of assistance in your cathedral quest.

 

At the outset, try to beg, borrow or steal (or even purchase or rent)a 24mm lens or 21mm lens (or an 18mm or 15mm!). The majesty and sweep and inspiration of awe in a cathedral comes from its height and volume. Your 35mm will be of some use, but anything longer except for closeups will not convey the sense of space.

 

As to your specific questions.

 

1. I know the temptation to try many films and to cover all the bases, but I try to resist it. What do you want? A snapshot record with option to make some good prints is best done with color neg of modest speed, 100 or 200. Color slides are color slides and are for projection only so far as amateurs are conderned. If you make your own prints, and know how, black and white is fine, but as for commercial processing, it is hard to come by in quality.

 

2. A table top tripod, even if braced on your chest, will be next to useless. If braced on the wall beside you, it will be better than hand holding. You may be looking at exposures of one to several seconds, for which a solid full height tripod like a Gitzo is mandatory. The exception to this statement is that if you expose properly for a bright stained glass window, the exposure may be hand held. If you are using Leica lenses, don't worry about sharpness. Small aperatures give you increased depth of field, but reduce sharpness. Ideal is almost always two f stops closed down from max aperature (f4 for a f2 lens, for example).

 

3. Spot metering is the only way to find an exposure which will render the bright stained glass window properly. If the spot completely covers the window, then give one stop more exposure or double the time of the shutter. (Example: if the spot meter reads 1/60 at f8, then use either 1/30 f8 or 1/60 at f5.6.) This will brighten the windows making them slightly brighter than normal, but will give you one step more brightness in the shadows. Try to find areas of the interior which are in sunlight beaming in so you narrow the brightness range of the subject. Bracket one step either side of your chosen calculated exposure.

 

4. I don't know the answer to this question, having never photographed in a church without a tripod. Chartres is a very public space, I suspect, and you may be dead in the water on tripod use if that is the church policy.

 

Now for some gratuitous comments, intended to be helpful. Take some photo courses or do some serious reading and practicing in photography. Your questions are at the very amateur level. Your sincerity and keen interest are great but you are handicaping yourself by not knowing the basics, and a few of the tricks of refinement of the craft of photography.

 

And remember, outside of some bracketing for exposure, take just a few views, carefully thought out, instead of trying to 'cover' the church story. An hour spent walking around looking with your eye (one eye only please) and through the viewfinder and then making five or ten views will give you far more good images to enjoy than five rolls of wily-nily film burned through the camera hoping for a good result. And if you get one picture you are really proud of and that your wife or friend also likes, count your trip and all your trip money well spent.

 

Best of luck and remember that in careful photography, there are no failures, just learing experiences.

Erik- Unless things have changed since I was last there, the priests will follow you around, trying to keep you form taking photos, and "suggesting" that you buy the third-rate transparencies and postcards from the table set up just inside the entrance.

 

You have to be cagey and innocous. I'd suggest ASA 200 or 400, as you need to place your camera against a pillar or a pew to catch the picture you want. This is especially true of the Black Maddona in the lower portions of the cathedtal, where scores of votive lights are there in front of her replica.

 

For the windows: Take an incident-reflective light meter and quietly meter what you want to shoot - - - keeping the always-present priests in mind.

 

If needed, guess at the exposures - - and BRACKET!

 

It's a beautiful cathedral - - but you'll have to be resourceful and slightly underhanded to get the photos you want. I used an M4 with a 35mm lens - - and wished I'd had a wider lens for some shots; however, changing lenses just draws attention to you.

 

Some French cathedrals permit you to photograph "at will," provided you buy a permit ahead of time.

 

I hope that someone else on this forum has had a very recent opportunity to go to Chartres, as he might have had a different experience.

 

Oh - - and I had to disguise my monopod as a walking stick!

 

Chartres will "blow your mind!" Whatever, go and experience some of the most magnificent architecture and glass in existence.

the table top tripod braces against anything -- pews, columns (though touching columns may get someone to you quickly). As certain as I am a tripod is the best, I am also certain it interferes with freedom and mobility. If you do not want perspective(tilt/angle) distortion, you will be standing off and using the 50 or 90 for windows, the 35 should be great for the broad effect scenes

 

reflective reading off the windows -- even a spot reading is tricky (different intensities), so a general refelctive reading works well. Personally, the readings off a window are more certain than the rest of the interior.

 

Films -- in this digital age, unless you are planning your own printing and a slide show, a single good color neg film might do well (reala?). As a long term slide shooter, I hate to say that, but fiddling with three films one camera will have you missing the awe.

 

Take a compass or chart so you can figure out what time of day the sun will shine in where (if you are spending a long time there).

 

this one is not Chartres, but St Peter's. Handheld/braced against pillar, 100 provia, 35 summicron asph and about 1/8th - 1/15th, if I recall. (it was actually my forearm pressed against the column, the camera pressed against it.)

 

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Lacey, that's a brilliant shot!

 

Erik:

 

1) Unless you want to shoot wide open at 1/30 all the time, you'll need at least ISO 400 film. I once got some shots in Notre Dame, Paris - sunny outside - using ISO 3200 and the exposure was only 1/30 at f/4!

 

2) It won't help much, but brace it against a pillar/wall/pew and you can use a 1 second exposure if you have to. The attached picture was a couple of seconds at f/5.6 downstairs in Ste-Chapelle, Paris.

 

3) Take a "reflected" (OK, it's not really) reading straight off the glass.

 

4) They get in the way, you might look like a pro, petty officialdom at work ;-)<div></div>

Here's a shot in Notre Dame with the old Konica SRG-3200 film. It's a bit grainy...<div></div>

Thanks to everyone for their input and their great photos. I really

appreciate the help and I will try the suggestions that you offered.

From the responses people have left, it seems that stabilizing

the camera for long-exposures, with the Leitz table-top tripod

braced against you chest, isn't really in favour. When I get back I'll

post some photos that I took.

I have to agree with Peter. PLEASE get something wider for your lens arsenal! I did some shots in the National Cathedral in Washington, DC and while I used a 16mm (Nikon) I found the 21mm the most used lens.

 

I love my 35 'Cron.....but you WILL need a wider lens. If you can't get an Elmarit, you might try a CV 21 (or 25) for a very good price on good optics.

 

BTW...forget trying tungsten crome film....there's too much natural light coming in through those windows. Even in secluded niches, daylight chrome will give a warm "look" where as tungsten is too blue.

 

I'd stick with B&W 400 and chrome 400 maybe pushed a stop, unless you really need to shoot color neg.

One trick I use with my old DS M3 is to just rest the camera on a solid surface, kind of pointed in the general direction (I try to sight it through the finder if I can get my face close enough), and then set the shutter dial to 1 second, and then use the self timer to trip the shutter. This way, I know I will get a 1 second exposure, with out worrying about camera shake, or a cable release. I wish my M6 had a self timer built in, but oh well.

 

Good luck, and I would try to buy a CV 21 or 25 for the trip... its well worth it. Just take some practice shots with the 21 or 25 before you go, to get used to the external finder not really lining up with what the lens sees. I took a whole roll with the 25, and framed everything "just right", and realized I cut the tops of all my pictures.

 

Also, "darkness" is a lot darker than the human eye realizes... what may seem "dim" to the human eye is often almost pitch dark to a camera. I think our minds compensate more than we realize for changes in brightness. I'd say 100 speed might be almost useless inside a church... I'd go with 400, personally.

 

Have a great trip!

Phillip

Good luck. I used a 20mm in the Duomo in Siena for this shot. Handheld with FM3A. Shutter was probably around 1/30 or slower.<div></div>