Photography Probable Cause for Suspicion of Terrorist Activity

I was listening to Democracy Now today and they were talking about video taping protests. One of the speakers said that after 9/11 the L.A.

police department gave guidelines of activities, criminal and not that the officers should take as precursors of terrorist activity. One of those

activities was photography and videotaping. The L.A.P.D. passed these guidelines on to other police departments around the country.

 

Even though photography is not illegal, police are told to consider photography a suspect endeavor.

 

Chad

Did the guidelines say that photography and videography by themselves were possible indicators, or that photography and videography near sensitive sites or of unusual subjects (e.g. close up of ECM equipment on El Al jet) was a possible indicator? If the former, the person who wrote the guideline is encouraging busy police to create unnecessary conflict. I still perceive that a lot of the current conflict stems from uneducated private security, and less from the police themselves. In any case, the ultimate determination of whether specific conduct constitutes probable cause is determined by the court, not the police, but of course by then the police have already arrested you.

From what I gathered listening to the show it was photography itself that was suspicious activity. The show did deal with videotaping protests to

document overzealous police actions. But I think the L.A.P.D. guidelines were something totally separate.

 

Chad

Democracy Now is a radical left program. Enough said already.

I guess Autistic kids are just spoiled brats since that was said on a right wing program.

 

Chad

<P>Individuals who carry on long conversations on pay or cellular telephones.

 

<P>Individuals drawing pictures or taking notes in an area not normally of interest to a tourist or showing unusual interest in or

photographing security cameras, guard locations, or watching security reaction drills and procedures.

 

<P><a href="http://www.lapdonline.org/home/content_basic_view/27436">L.A.P.D.</a>

 

<P>It does look like it mostly concerned with photographing police, but then of course that is exactly what people do at

demonstrations.

 

<P>Chad

"I guess Autistic kids are just spoiled brats since that was said on a right wing program."

 

Correction: first, this was said on a radical right wing program and therefor should be met with skepticism; second, this was not said at all; if you had heard or read the whole discussion, you would have known.

For those of us who like to watch or listen to something before commenting on it, here are links to the two

photography related stories in the program.<br>Their guest was from iwitnessvideo.info, an organization that

connects people who have video with people who need it-- as they describe in <a

href="http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/1/i_witness_video_nypd_officer_caught">this segment</a> of the program

where they show what appears to have been a bicycle rider knocked to the ground last week by a NYPD officer. That

officer then allegedly filed a false arrest

report. A bystander caught the whole thing on video.<br><br>

The <a

href="http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/1/colorado_fusion_center_to_step_up">next segment</a> was a discussion

about Fusion Centers. About 35 or 40 minutes into the program, Mike German, a former FBI special agent and

terrorism analyst, said:

<br><br>

<i>...the Los Angeles Police Department issued an order compelling their officers to report criminal and

non-criminal suspicious behavior that can be indicative of terrorism, and they listed sixty-five behaviors. And

Erin mentioned some of them, but one warning I’ll put out there, because of the early part of this story, <b>one of

the precursor behaviors to terrorism that’s identified in the order is taking video. And we put in our report a

couple of instances where people taking video were stopped by police officers simply for taking pictures or

video. And in some cases, particularly where they’re taking photographs or video of police, it actually resulted

in arrests.</b> So, you know, when you’re out there with your video camera, a police officer reading this report may

say that’s a precursor behavior to terrorism and, you know, get involved in what you’re doing.</i>

<br><br>

That was just part of it. The rest of the Fusion Center story is pretty scary.

<br>Take a look at the story, Frans, and see if what's happening out there is in sync with your values.

<br><br>

I know I'm not going to be looking at this guy the same again.<br><br>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nohodamon/2723766273/" title="20071027-DSC_1058-1 by NoHoDamon, on

Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3048/2723766273_770699ea0e_o.jpg" width="480" height="600"

alt="20071027-DSC_1058-1" /></a>

<P>According to the New York Daily News:

 

<P>WOR radio talk show host Michael Savage, who makes a good living being outrageous, found himself in the middle of a new

firestorm Monday after he branded most autistic children fakers who just need tougher parenting.

"In 99% of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism is. What do you mean they scream

and they're silent?" Savage said last week in remarks that lit up the Internet over the weekend.

"They don't have a father around to tell them, 'Don't act like a moron. You'll get nowhere in life. Stop acting like a putz.'

 

<P><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/07/21/2008-07-21_radio_host_michael_savage_incites_protes.html"> NY Daily

News</a>

 

<P>Looks like he did say basically what I said.

 

<P>Damon, thanks for posting that. I didn't even try to look for a Democracy Now transcript. I didn't think it would be up. The

Fusion Centers did sound pretty scary. I think even the right wingers would be against that with their talk of the posse

comitatus act. Or was that just in the 90s?

 

Chad

grow a beard and wear a kaftan next time you go out and you'll get your photo taken for free

In response to, "One of those activities was photography and videotaping.", does this include the LAPD or any police or law

enforcement officer? Why do they think others' photographing is suspect but not themselves? And all those surveillence

cameras? Somehow their paradigm is skewed and blind, both about photographers and about civil rights.

As someone who occasionally photographs in LA's Union Station and the subway system, I was told by both MTA

and security at the Union Station that photography is allowed. I carry a copy of the email stating this from MTA. This

was last year so unless things have changed, LAPD are making up their own laws. Besides, the subways are

monitored by sheriff's both in uniform as well as plain clothes. I have yet to questioned but I figure sooner or later it

will happen. Perhaps this is why I'm shooting there less (although I'm shooting my last two Delta 3200 rolls today).

I might add to that this whole terrorist nonsense can easily be handled by closing off our northern and southern borders and regulating who comes into the US. Every other country in the world does this, it's time for the US to do as well otherwise the deaths on 9/11 will stand for nothing.

Maybe if you strapped on a bomb vest and handgun, it wouldn't be the photography the police were worried about. Camouflage couldn't hurt either. JR

"I might add to that this whole terrorist nonsense can easily be handled by closing off our northern and southern borders and

regulating who comes into the US. Every other country in the world does this, it's time for the US to do as well otherwise the

deaths on 9/11 will stand for nothing."

 

The 9/11 hijackers were here on student visas.

 

Chad

This is the problem. Instead of using a surgical scalpel our authorities use a baseball bat. Unfortunately some people knowledge of how a totalitarian system operates is limited to moviies like "Clockwork Orange". The cynical radical left understand it and use scaremongering to advance their agenda.

I shot many pictures in Israel where the threat of terrorism is part of everyday life and I was asked only once not to take pictures of a specific building.

Being a Liberal, Conservative, Radical, Existential Atheist with no political agenda whatsoever, I find Democracy Now to be an informative alternative news source. I also listen to BBC, Deutsche Velo, NPR because the commercial news we get here in the good old US of A just bites.

 

After being in Vietnam I stopped worrying about whether I was in danger. I had been in danger, so why worry. I didn't have any control over what was going to happen from moment to moment. Your life is only marginally in your hands. Live it to the fullest for it can end momentarily, and you can't do a thing about it.

 

I shoot what I want, when I want. Only once has a cop asked me what I was doing. I answered him as I continued to shoot, and he left me to what I was doing. Life is too short to worry about whether you're going to step over the line. If you answer the cops civilly and honestly, there is rarely any problem. If someone tells you to stop shooting a particular subject, ask why without attitude. Don't argue! There may be a good reason.

 

The cynical radical left or right use exactly the same tactics of scaremongering. They are after all just opposite sides of the same coin. There is no right or wrong, black or white, good or evil in this discussion. It's all shades of grey. Unfortunately, there are only a few of us that have come to that realization.

"Every other country in the world does this, it's time for the US to do as well otherwise the deaths on 9/11 will stand for nothing."

 

Please get a clue before posting nonsense like this. Greece is overflowing with illegal immigrants from Iraq and Afghanistan who are fleeing from wars in their home countries. There are illegal immigrants everywhere: Spain, England, Mexico. There always have been and there always will be. Some illegal immigrants even died in 9/11. What do they stand for in your skinny little book?

 

I suggest you buy a map and look at the size of the northern and southern US borders and compare them to the borders of "every other country." Second, I suggest you stay on topic.

 

As a generation of photographers, we're dealing with the peripheral effects of an ignorant, knee-jerk reaction to terrorist attacks. I wonder whether Tel-Aviv, where terrorist attacks are far more frequent, has ordered its police officers to pay special attention to suspicious picture takers

>> Damon, thanks for posting that.

 

My pleasure, Chad. And thank you for bringing this to our attention. I've reposted those links to a couple of other places, and I wouldn't have thought to do if it hadn't been posted here first.

 

I love Amy Goodman and Democracy Now-- I watch the TV version on Link TV. They have a great team there.

"this whole terrorist nonsense can easily be handled by closing off our northern and southern borders and regulating who comes into the US."

 

in which case the only terrorists will be the ones with uniforms on.

 

marc, why don't we round up everyone who doesnt look like you and place them in concentration camps? we'll use their forced slave labor to rebuild america! we can be great again!

 

and franz, i sure hope you enjoy watching fox news. just think, if the cops would have arrested the guy who shot the rodney king video and destroyed his tape, the LAPD would never have had the embarassment of having to put the nice officers to trial. and we all know how that ended up...

 

(getting back on topic) chad and damon, thanks for the informative post. the definition of 'suspicious activity' seems to depend on who is doing the suspecting. politics aside, this subject keeps coming up in this forum. my advice is to carry a business card identifying oneself as a photographer (a press pass is even better). that way it's easier to talk yourself out of any situation.

Political correctness prevents this Eric. Middle Eastern men in their 20's which fit the profile for most terrorists are not detained at airports. Only little old ladies with knitting needles and pregnant women with bottled breast milk. Does this make you feel safer?

"why don't we round up everyone who doesnt look like you..". Prime example of hysterical approach that lacks any understanding of today's terrorist ideology, instead of encouraging professional solutions. In the meantime we, the photographers and "little old ladies with knitting needles " suffer.

Exactly my point Sam. Thanks.

Tim McVeigh was not a Middle Eastern man in his 20's, and most people who are are from the Levant are not terrorists

either, so ethnic profiling isn't an intelligent solution either.

 

But in any case McVeigh, the 9/11 attackers and London and Madrid bombers, all had this in common, according to

Britain's The Guardian, not one of them used photography or video surveillance of their targets. So the LAPD and other

cops are wooly thinkers who are not acting in a manner that will deter real terrorists when they go after photographers.

Oh I forgot, our other two native US terrorists Eric Robert Rudolph and Ted Kaczynski also did not use photography in

planning their bombings.