Photographer: Francesca Woodman

Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by vic_., Jan 28, 2006.

  1. EricM

    EricM Planet Eric

    impressive. and just what i needed, thank you so much for posting this Vic.
     
  2. What I can't find on those websites is why she took her life at age 22. Was if depression? drugs? LSD? schizophrenia? What were the contributing factors that made her life so tragic?
     
  3. Well, I guess she had no choice. No real artist has. Moving and tragic as it is. What an impressive oevre. A name to remember and to watch out for. Here's looking at you, Francesca. Thanks a lot for posting, Vic. It made my day.
     
  4. Well, I guess she had no choice. No real artist has.

    What does this mean? It sounds like nonsense to me.
     
  5. cheers Vic

    Occasionally I need a shake out of my local focus particularly when it comes to more contemporary work.

    Interesting work
     
  6. Really powerful images, but I have to think about Lutz's comment. After all, there are many
    kinds of deaths and rebirths as well. However thinking in absolutes is often associated with
    being 22 years of age and as sensitive, capable and intelligent as she obviously was.
     
  7. Thanks so much. Very impressive photographs. It's a wealth of compositional ideas.

    Scott
     
  8. I can't say I found the pictures that interesting. It seemed like the usual art-student stuff to me.
     
  9. Oh well, Eliot, where to start... Look again. To me it appears more than plausible that she felt irrepressively compelled to do it, had to do it, the same way she had to do all that beautiful, troubling and vulnerable stuff. This is exactly _not_ just the young aesthet experimenting a bit with light and form, doing just the average art student's stuff. No, this is a young, highly sensitive, highly gifted and courageous artist exploring herself, her body, her dreams, nightmares and obsessions. These pictures scream at me, "help me to find a way to get at terms with what I feel, see and what I am". Apparently there was no help, not to the extent necessary, but just some consolation by what she did, by her art, for the time it lasted. God bless her. The thought of rebirth occured to me, too. A consoling thought, indeed.
     
  10. These pictures scream: I've seen this stuff in an art book so I'll do the same. There's nothing here that hasn't been seen a hundred times before in any art college.
     
  11. H.P. I'd be delighted if you linked me to any art books with work of similar depth - the same way that I am happy Vic linked us to Francesca Woodman's art. But before you start belittling what apparently is none of your preferences, and to question its originality (an art student's concern, BTW, and far beyond the point...) please consider that her work dates from the seventies.
     
  12. Here is a random sample from typing 'art college' in google...RCA 2005 summer show, photography.
    There is a huge difference. I don't get out to hundreds of art college exhibitions like Harvey but the corridors here at work have lots of local art college student's work on the walls (changed over twice a year) and Francesca Woodman would have nothing to fear from any of it.
     
  13. I really liked the photos. Interesting stuff. One of the articles mentioned that she was influenced by Duane Micahels and I think that is true. 22 years old is so young to end your own life. Really tragic indeed.
     
  14. Erm, what's wrong with what happens in art colleges? Some students are artists before they even get there.
     
  15. One reason this forum has suffered in recent months is that dissenting voices are shouted down. So, for example, no comment against the latest hero or, in this case heroine, is permitted. Perhaps we should all step back and see if we can put our views without making them personal or, perhaps, the majority want a forum where personal attack is the preferred form of intercourse.
     
  16. Calm down, HP. No one 'attacking' you, and you're the only one doing any shouting.

    People were polite enough not to comment on your ill-considered remarks until you repeated
    them more forcefully, so your doom and gloom forecast for the forum seems off the mark.

    Thanks for the links, Vic!
     
  17. All he said was he didnt like the pictures and people turned nasty. I heard this about the leica forum. you all need to let peopel have their say instead of thinking your right all the time.
     
  18. My take on these images was a lot of self-absorption. And I read anger too, as in "Talking to Vince". When I read "estate of Francesca Woodman", at the bottom,I wondered if she had died by her own hand. Highly talented, but even for a suicide, she went way before her time. Had she been able to hold out against her demons a few more years, her art would have matured; maybe she'd have reached the stature of an Arbus.

    Sorta reminds me of Kurt Kobain. When you hear his song, you hear talent and energy, but also the rawness of youth and obsession with self.

    Some artists are able to produce mature work at a very young age-look at Mozart, whose 250th birthday was 2 days ago. But contemporary popular culture seems to ignore the distinction between adolescent and adult, as if the capability to reproduce were all you need.

    And I say let Harvey type, he's a good egg and has been a productive member of this forum for years. Thanx for the linx Vic.
     
  19. Good grief Jimmy and H.P. I don't think anyone was in an "attack" mode. They just disagreed. I happen to like the photos but I can certainly see why some would not. And Jimmy, some of these guys in the Leica forum are a rowdy bunch. That's what makes it so much fun!
     
  20. I, for once, agree that I have seen much related work before. Anna Gaskel, Araki,
    Moriyama, Nan Goldin, even recent Sally Mann (in fact, her still life work, more than her
    earlier family work reminds of that). what is wrong with that? where did the absurd myth
    that an artist has to be creative as if he is a tabula rasa and not influenced by other's work?
    what other field, within or out of art is supposed to be like that? Most of the stupid art I
    come across daily come exactly from people that are obsessed with being "original".
    my take on her work is that I like some of the pictures, some I feel I have seen before,
    some I don't like. In general I know of much more famos artists that I like much less of
    their works. It does look to me a work that can easily be found in one of the great recent
    (mostly European and japanese) photography magazines.
     
  21. First, thanks to Vic for posting this and inviting discussion.

    Based upon the photos I looked at, many of her poses on these self-portraits looked contrived. But no sooner do I say that than I remind myself that every posed photo in the world is to a significant extent "contrived," and the self-portraits are if anything moreso, since the photographer controls both ends of the deal.

    So to put it more accurately, a number of *her* contrivances, versus those offered by other photographers who offer self-portraits, left me cold. A few I thought were very provocative (in a powerful, artistic way).

    I was not and still am not enough of an art student to comment on Harvey's assertion about their lack of originality.

    Disagreement about photos (and other things) makes this place more interesting. Harvey spoke his mind. Lutz and Trevor, respectively, asked for support/amplification and offered contrary impressions. Nothing wrong with any of that, to my eye.
     
  22. ........My take on these images was a lot of self-absorption. And I read anger too, as in.......
    Nothing wrong with self-absorption or anger as long as you don't have to live with that person ;-) LOL. I mean if the resulting images are great then why worry about the artist?
     
  23. I would say that some of these images are themselves immature, however well composed. I have the same problem with a lot of Rock and Hip-hop; the artists are so obviously gifted, but the content is something they will eventually grow out of. So, they're "great images", but they aren't as good as they could be.
     
  24. Rami, while I do agree with your plight for accepting if not embracing the existence of influences in art, I would like to question your introductory statement, as you seem to be mixing up some things:
    rami G Photo.net Patron, jan 29, 2006; 10:32 a.m.
    I, for once, agree that I have seen much related work before. Anna Gaskel, Araki, Moriyama, Nan Goldin, even recent Sally Mann (in fact, her still life work, more than her earlier family work reminds of that). (...) It does look to me a work that can easily be found in one of the great recent (mostly European and japanese) photography magazines.

    Sorry, but that _you_ or _I_ saw anything like Woodman's work "before" in _our lifes_ has no relevance at all, given the fact that Gaskel(l)'s work dates from the nineties, Araki's and Goldin's from the - what? - late eighties, and you tell me from when Sally Mann's "recent work" dates - I suspect you are referring to the most recent decade...? And from when do the "great recent magazines" date that you refer to...? All of the references you are citing are dated _after_ Woodman who worked in the _seventies_. Get my point?
    The fact that I can relate to her art as opposed to others may be a strongly personal one, given that we were born the same year (1958) and that I find her output much deeper than mine has been and will maybe ever be. I was quite aware then of what was going on in the arts and in photography especially, but not of her work. Although she might even have "matured" at a later stage, that hypothesis must and can not detract from the power to be read in her early body of work. Having been an audiovisual arts student myself, having pursued a career in that field for 25 years so far and having been a professor for 15 I humbly insist that there has seldom been a similar loss of talent.
    As far as the complaints about the tone of the discussion so far are concerned - geez, get a life! This is the gentlest forum I've ever come across. Just read and think before you write and everything will be alright. ;-) Cheers.
     
  25. Points very well taken Lutz.

    I sometimes have a problem with art that draws attention to the artist. Doesn't stop me from loving the work of Nan Goldin for some reason. But once I began to sense that I was looking at the visual diary of a suicide, I began to get the creeps. "Look at me, look at my pain and my anger". Sometimes I don't wanna know about it. My deficiency I suppose.
     
  26. "I humbly insist that there has seldom been a similar loss of talent."

    Lutz, that's a very difficult thing to quantify either way. If the poor girl hadn't
    taken her life, she may have been better off never taking another photograph
    again. Exposing herself in such a literal and metaphorical way clearly didn't
    help Francesca in terms of catharsis.

    I agree with Jackie that we are witnessing something disquieting. Something
    almost too painful to behold.

    Personally speaking, I am uncomfortable with the amount of nudity in these
    pictures. I would like to think that this is not because I am a prude but because
    I believe there needs to be a valid reason for it. Sex sells, whether it's in art,
    advertising or whatever. To bare her soul did she really need to take her
    clothes off? Is it that simple?

    Possibly, looking at these photos and her life, she felt she didn't have
    anything more to say? Sorry if that sounds glib. This is a very difficult subject
    and I apologise in advance if I have offended.

    PS: to clarify my attitude to nudity: I had to take my clothes off in a play at
    university. The director wanted it done and it was her call. She said there
    were valid reasons that it had to be done. It was such a long time ago. Do you
    remember Jan Palach?
     
  27. I can't say I found the pictures that interesting. It seemed like the usual art-student stuff to me.
    And where is your stuff, H.P.?
     
  28. Jan Palach was a Czech student who committed suicide, by setting fire to
    himself, in protest at the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 and our
    university play was about him.
     
  29. Thank you for these links, I didn't know this artist. I find the pictures very impressive and sad and kind of ahead of the time they were taken.
     
  30. "I've seen this stuff in an art book so I'll do the same. There's nothing here that hasn't been
    seen a hundred times before in any art college."

    H.P., I nominate this for most ludicrous post of the year. For your info, the art books and
    art students you refer to are copying Woodman, not vice-versa -- she was at least a
    decade ahead of her time. Back when I was in school in the late 80's, a lot of students
    were kind of preoccupied with Woodman and her photography; it was very fresh and
    influential at that time. The fact that a lot of those students later went on to copy her is
    not her fault.
     
  31. Andrew,
    what the hell does sex has to do with nudity? much of the actual sexual intercourse in the
    world is done with cloth on, only glimps of nudity out there, not open to any third party's
    point of view ; >) Much of nudity has nothing to do with sex. THere is nothing but
    puritanism in being bothered by nudity, and it is so happened that America is among the
    only places that one is likely to come across such view, although they are related to
    puritan views that are associated with the three monoteistic religions. anyway, if you are
    bothered by nudity avoid it. I find the amount of comments about such psychological
    disturbances quit offensive, given that they are related to our own natural bodies, and to
    many of us, are connected to our profession as photographers. (and although many of us
    deal with nudity, as photographers, very few of us would ever be dealiing with sex as our
    subject matter.)
     
  32. Interesting to see that Brian's proscription against personal attacks has broken down so quickly. So, I take it we're all back to being nasty to one another?
     
  33. >> THere is nothing but puritanism in being bothered by nudity


    Andrew made it clear enough that he's not bothered by the nudity as such, but that he views it as a cheap trick to get noticed as 'artist'. If you believe that nudity is not an attention grabber, then you should surf the internet a bit to understand how much people are interested in skin.
     
  34. rj

    rj

    I go outside everyday and don't ever remember seeing a nude person just walking down the street. It really doesn't have anything to do with living in a puritan society, whatever that is. The bottom line is that most people in the world wear clothes, to show nudity grabs attention of others.
     
  35. EUGENE SCHERBA , JAN 29, 2006; 05:00 P.M.
    I can't say I found the pictures that interesting. It seemed like the usual art-student stuff to me.
    And where is your stuff, H.P.?

    You really need to calm yourself down Eugene your constant red face bellowing is becoming tedious to say the least. Get a grip of yourself man.

    I find the pixs rather Arty arty for my taste echoing college days. But of course that is my individual take.
     
  36. So H.P., let me get this straight. When you denigrate someones work with sarcasm it is just your personal opinion...someone denigrates your opinion with sarcasm the forum appears to be falling apart with all the name calling and such. Hmmmm.
     
  37. Bee,
    Andrew said:
    Personally speaking, I am uncomfortable with the amount of nudity in these pictures. I
    would like to think that this is not because I am a prude but because I believe there needs
    to be a valid reason for it. Sex sells, whether it's in art, advertising or whatever. To bare
    her soul did she really need to take her clothes off? Is it that simple?

    My points were: what does nudity have to do with sex?

    and also: what is this thing about "taking off one's clothes"? I cannot see anything but
    puritanism in being "uncomfortable by an amoung of nudity." What does Andrew mean by
    a "reason" to take off one's clothes? Why the hell does anybody need a reason for that?
    unless, of course, we think that there are good reasons NOT to do so. I cannot think of
    such besides puritanism, of one version or another.
    anyhow, I agree that taking off one's clothes need not make bad art into good art, but one
    need not take one clothes off to be a bad artist. The act of exposing oneself, both
    metaphorically and literally is very central to contemporary, as well as to art in most of the
    recent history. It probably feels very personal to people and make them feel they are
    sincere, which is somethign many artists are craving for. Of couse, as such, it is a mistake.
    If someone is not a good artist, so getting naked, as well as talking about his childhood
    experience, will not make him an artist but rather a candidate to show in some tabloid. I
    don't think anybody thought that this is ALL there is in the work of the artist we discuss
    here. The accusation was that it is not original, not that it is nothing but nudity.
     
  38. It seems pretty obvious that some people around here simply don't want to read what's been written. They confuse an opinion that conflicts with theirs as an invitation to a flame war, which is really rather sad. A forceful exposition of a view is not the same as a personal attack and a personal attack is not the same as a forceful exposition of a view. It would appear that this IS rocket science for some people.
     
  39. Bob, with all due respect, I think the difference is this:

    Harvey stated HIS opinion about Woodman, which was what Vic asked in his post. But Harvey didn't ask for an opinion about HIS opinion about Woodman. Personally I think Harvey has a right to his opinion. Harvey's opinion is in my opinion quite independent of any others' opinions.

    lastly, in my opinion, I think Woodman's work needs a closer look to "soak" it in. I rather like what she did..."right into my alley"??

    PS, Bob, can we see more of your nude work? been missing those ;)
     
  40. btw, I kindda like Lutz's take on Woodman's work and life..
     
  41. we can't fault someone for not liking a Ferrari...etc ;) or the colour red..
     
  42. >>But Harvey didn't ask for an opinion about HIS opinion about Woodman.


    Consider it a generosity of internet forums that you get more than what you ask for. Generally referred to as 'discussion'. If you can't stand the heat...

    I'm impatiently waiting for Harvey to show us his picture of his finger. He has quite the sample! So far he hasn't quite expressed how he *really* feels.
     
  43. Bee, when you are in the kitchen, you'd have to be patient.
     
  44. 'what does nudity have to do with sex?'

    nothing, necessarily.

    but surely the nudity in these pictures is all about sex (and death).

    (or maybe an eel is just an eel, and a melon, a melon...)
     
  45. >> Bee, when you are in the kitchen, you'd have to be patient.


    Yes, dad.
     
  46. Being a good boy, I am refraining from using the finger these days.
     
  47. Thanks all for your comments, it has raised my comprehension of her works. I'm always looking to learn, so thanks again. To feel emotion without understanding is less comfortable that to feel it with some understanding.
     
  48. �There is nothing but puritanism in being bothered by nudity�

    I disagree. If I see a film where an actress takes her clothes off I question she
    really wants to or is she left little choice by the producer? Also, I�ve done
    enough fashion shows to know that most of the models are very unhappy with
    exposing themselves on the catwalk. Do you really believe that every model
    or actress you see with her clothes off is happy about this? This has nothing to
    with Puritanism but a heck of a lot to do with good old exploitation.

    �if you are bothered by nudity avoid it.�

    I didn�t say I was bothered by nudity but by the amount of nudity in
    Francesca�s work. If you read my comments more carefully you would also
    see that I have taken my clothes on stage ergo: I�m not bothered by nudity.

    �The accusation was that it is not original, not that it is nothing but nudity.�

    I�m not worried about whether Francesca�s work is original or not. I am more
    concerned that you have to talk in terms of �accusation�. Gee, can�t someone
    make an observation without someone else screaming �J�accuse�! :)
     
  49. >>Do you really believe that every model
    >>or actress
    >>you see with her clothes off is happy about this?


    Most people aren't happy going to work in the morning either. Big deal.
     
  50. I was trying to make, what I thought was, a serious point. Your comment says
    more about your life than it does mine. I love my work and I sorry you're so
    sad.
     
  51. >> I sorry you're so sad.


    Don't be ridiculous. You're the one who's disquieted and pained by looking at FW's nudity, and furthermore troubled by models getting naked in the line of your own profession. I'm sorry you're so messed up.
     
  52. Yeah, Bee, cheer up. You know cleaning toilets in Russian subway stations is the fast track to... well, something.

    I think getting paid millions for a few months' work compensates a person for the trauma of taking his/her clothes off in front of the camera. If that's exploitation, exploit me, for Chrissakes. Please.
     
  53. The models getting paid millions aren't the ones being exploited. Maybe this
    is a subtlety lost on you. It's the models or actresses at the bottom of the
    ladder who tend to get up ripped off.

    I give up. I honestly thought that this was a serious point about exploitation
    but, clearly, it's open season with cheap jibes.
     
  54. "You're the one who's disquieted and pained by looking at FW's nudity'

    Yes I am pained by those by photos and where they led to. I said before that
    her work clearly didn't lead to any sort of emotional catharsis. I've seen these
    photos before and I was disturbed by them then as I am now.

    Funnily enough, I don't lose any sleep on the vexed question models and
    nudity I was merely using this as an example of exploitation. Are you saying
    it's not? I'm not saying it's a particularly horrible form of it but it is exploitation,
    surely?
     
  55. Subtleties are almost always lost on me, I'm afraid.

    Frankly, if someone doesn't enjoy being in such a situation, they can get a different job. I don't think anyone is ever forced to be a catwalk model or actress. It's not like being a child prostitute in a Bangkok flophouse.

    As for Woodman, if there was any exploitation going on, she was evidently exploiting herself.

    More to the point of the thread - why is women's art so often about "identity"? It's like an excuse for not engaging with the world. The pictures are quite nice, but so much self-absorption is tedious.

    No comparison at all to the lyricism and objectivity of Nan Goldin's work.
     
  56. Interesting work needs some thinking about.

    Thanks Vic for making the effort to share.
     
  57. A Bob, I wasn't saying that Francesca was being exploited but, as you said,
    subtleties are lost on you :)

    Yes, of course, the child prostitute in Bangkok, or wherever, is always worse
    off. No contest. It is, however, quite staggering how many would be actresses
    or models out there. For every Kate Moss there are thousands of also rans
    and they get ripped off. Ok, I know you're not going to sob over this but I think
    it's still a sad story.

    Nan Goldin! Ha! We are agreed on Nan Goldin. Fabulous, fabulous.
    Especially love the earlier stuff. Was lucky enough to meet her in Paris a
    couple of years ago. SHE AGREED WITH ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING I
    SAID, sort of.
     
  58. >> I was merely using this as an example of exploitation. >>Are you saying it's not?


    Yes that's what I'm saying. It's just people leasing their assets and talents and time, which is what the entire working population does. Hardly anyone with a paid job would continue doing their work if payments would stop. Exploitation? No, just a job.
     
  59. " It is, however, quite staggering how many would be actresses or models out there. For every Kate Moss there are thousands of also rans and they get ripped off. Ok, I know you're not going to sob over this but I think it's still a sad story."

    Sounds like a project. Now _that_, I'd like to see the pictures of.
     
  60. " It's just people leasing their assets and talents and time"

    So is prostitution. That's ok, then. All is well with the world.
     
  61. "Sounds like a project. Now _that_, I'd like to see the pictures of."

    Didn't Michael Ritchie make a film, in the '70s, about beauty pageants that
    was pretty sad? Remember "Smile"?

    There's got to be a load of films or projects about this. Erm,...
     
  62. >> So is prostitution.


    Sure. And I thought you were trying to convince us you're not a puritan. So much for that, then.
     
  63. You might be right, you might not. I thought I took an extreme point of view to
    make a case.

    However, trying to make me out to be a Puritan because of certain
    reservations I have about Francesca's work doesn't really square with the fact
    that I was only too happy to take my clothes for a univeristy play. Or maybe it
    does. I remain open to persuasion.
     
  64. You might be right, you might not. I thought I took an extreme point of view to
    make a case.

    However, trying to make me out to be a Puritan because of certain
    reservations I have about Francesca's work doesn't really square with the fact
    that I was only too happy to take my clothes for a univeristy play. Or maybe it
    does. I remain open to persuasion.
     
  65. You continue to make it ever more clear that you have serious qualms about taking your clothes off and that you just can't get over the fact that you agreed to it in the context of that play, although it was a long long time ago. Of course that makes you a puritan. Or a prude. The fact you did it is not revealing of your attitude. The fact you're troubled by it is revealing.
     
  66. Andrew Wrote:
    I?m not worried about whether Francesca?s work is original or not. I am more concerned
    that you have to talk in terms of ?accusation?. Gee, can?t someone make an observation
    without someone else screaming ?J?accuse?! :)

    Andrew:
    sorry if I have insulted your values of a "decent polite conversation". However, that might
    be the result of the fact that english is not first language for everybody writing on this
    international forum. Probably, "criticism" would have been a better choice of words.
     
  67. I am never going to convince you otherwise but I am not genuinely not
    concerned over a play I was in over a quarter of a century ago. The only
    reason why I mentioned it, initially, was because when I originally expressed
    some reservations about Francesca's work I thought it a good idea to say that
    I don't have problems with nudity and thus made the point.

    Rami G missed this point and so on and so on.

    I may have some photos, from a couple of years ago, when my wife and I went
    to a Greek nudist beach if that will calm you down. But maybe, just maybe, I
    went on that on that beach because I was still feeling exploited. You tell me.

    Personally, I don't think I'm guilty of anything more than clumsily expressing a
    few reservations on some photos. In future, I will endeavour not to indulge in
    macho posturing. Consider me duly admonished.
     
  68. Rami, let's kiss and make up. I'm sitting here naked wearing only an M3 :)
     
  69. >>> I am not genuinely not concerned over a play I was in over a quarter >>> of a century ago.


    You compared your getting naked to Jan Palach's self-incineration, though. That's a pretty strong hangover, you know.

    But okay... we'll leave it at that if you will :)
     
  70. Bee,

    The play was about Jan Palach, more specifically about how quickly people
    forgot his sacrifice. I played a priest who did a strip tease. 'Palach' was
    orginally an Open Space production devised by, I think, Charles Horowitz.

    My crummy acting aside, which was played for laughs, it was a moving piece
    of theatre especially Palach's final speech, which really was said by him.

    And my arms are outstretched waiting to give you a hug of love and
    understanding, despite our huge ideological difficulties.
     
  71. >>>And my arms are outstretched waiting to >>>give you a hug of love and
    understanding, >>>despite our huge ideological difficulties.


    Well then first put your clothes back on. I insist.
     
  72. Bob, may I call you Robert, Bob flashes an image of something green and squashy bobbing in a pond.

    why is women's art so often about "identity"? It's like an excuse for not engaging with the world

    A rather sweeping generalization regarding females and their objectivity. I canメt help thinking your next thesis will be females have not produced any great thinkers or artists.
     
  73. Stalking me again, Michael?
    Can I see your mugshot, please? And where you live. I mean, it's not like you have any pics to look at.
     
  74. Really, I'm not stalking anyone.

    I bought the FW book, was impressed and, realized I'd probably never look at it again and
    sold it. She's in a whole different class than most artists in that her work is the leavings of
    an amazingly powerful inner world. I'd guess that the torture that must have led to her sad
    end had to do with that energy running the show, leaving little room for her to develop a
    calm, reflective mind.

    So it's authentic in the sense that I can't imagine her saying no to the impulses that led her
    to shape the work the way she did.

    The nudity: get over it. We all have bodies, ever take life drawing? That's an erotic
    nakedness too. But the eros lies in your mind's attempt to see and describe something in
    the world...a different sort of union than the good old fashioned kind.

    That said...sex still sells!
     
  75. Can I see your mugshot, please? And where you live.

    Was the food not to your satifaction Sir. Should i pure this jug of water over your big red face before it explodes Sir.
     
  76. Eugene Scherba

    With respect dude you are out classed and out gunned even with the help of you ageing happy dayメs crowd.

    Don't be an old punchy coming out for one fight too many. Itメs embarrassing do us both a favour.

    Take care
    Michael Bridges
     
  77. Sorry Andrew, I have updagted you, I am sitting only with my MP3 player.
     
  78. meant : "updated" obviously ;>)
     
  79. Jeff, which FW book are you talking about? I'd love to buy one. Your comment is mirroring my feelings exactly.
     
  80. here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/3931141969/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-5249538 -5199047#reader-link As far as I know that's it. Art like hers scares me at bottom. I take care of four g-kids from 5 mos to 4 yrs. It's obvious that their education will involve them transforming themselves from works of nature to bearers of civic identity. Of course, they'll also gain lots of vital tools for survival and maybe, reflection. But their imaginative function is, in these early years, is a better show than any IMax movie. I notice kids on the edge of pre-pubescence as well. They think and behave pretty much like four-year-olds. All of a sudden then they have to handle sexual blossoming and think about where they'll fit in the civics org. chart. They close up and may or may not find affinity groups of peers. They will certainly develop some sort of shell or other even in the best case. This doesn't seem so dire in more open and reflective families, but the child must always put away childish things and think as an adult. Woodman couldn't go through the initiation, I'd guess. Stayed behind in the garden and played it out there til the end. I'm sure the imps in her brain admired very much how they looked in her pictures.
    00F4y7-27877784.jpg
     
  81. and her tragic life? In love with her reflection. Imaginary imperfections in herself destroyed her due to self obsession. A pix of happiness frowned upon by the Arty arty.
    00F4yo-27877884.jpg
     
  82. Someone said a there's only so much blood in the body. It can ever go into your head or dick.

    Of course it goes into our heads.
     
  83. Living for the more abstruse delights of the mind doesn't always lead to happiness in the
    world. Doestyevsky's hero in Notes from the Underground asked himself, "How can an
    intelligent man truly respect himself?" In his impotence, he delights in the fantasy of
    insulting a soldier in a bar with a view to being hurled through a plate glass window. He
    attempts to deliver the insult and is brushed away like a fly. This only confirms his bitter
    understanding of how little he matters in a world that revolves around brutality.
     
  84. Andrew, I'm sure there are lots of films and so on about it. Just as there are lots of photo projects about my chosen subjects. Nonetheless, if you don't photograph the things you feel strongly about, what's the point?

    "A rather sweeping generalization regarding females and their objectivity. I can?t help thinking your next thesis will be females have not produced any great thinkers or artists."

    Michael, fortunately I'm not responsible for what you can't help thinking.
     
  85. A Bob, to re-iterate, I don't feel strongly about this subject. I merely mentioned
    it to (hopefully) illustrate a point.
     
  86. My mistake, Andrew.
     
  87. A Bob, you've got me thinking about Nan Goldin again. Definitely one of my
    all time favourites.
     
  88. Barely a week after she published her strange and twisted book, she hurled herself from her apartment window on to a freezing and final sidewalk below.
     
  89. Nan Goldin's work is the most honest and direct I've seen so far. It is so tempting to hide
    behind metaphoric, iconic, or mood-setting approaches to suggest inner states. Her work
    should be called photo-memoir, a neat alternative to the memoir explosion in literature
    and graphic novels.

    Maybe she didn't go crazy like Diane Arbus because she is solidly integrated with the lives
    of her subjects. And, she has the capacity to make a choice in the matter.
     
  90. "Back when I was in school in the late 80's, a lot of students were kind of preoccupied with
    Woodman and her photography; it was very fresh and influential at that time. The fact that
    a lot of those students later went on to copy her is not her fault."

    Back in the '70s it was the same with Diane Arbus, especially at RISD. I was in Boston at
    the time and all those RI students were coming up to Boston's officially-named 'combat
    zone.' They'd pay the trans-gendered, fetishistic, gay, and traditional hustlers for their
    time and make 'direct' portraits. They were fortunate, as I am in my own way, to go on in
    life and be able to reflect on their foolish youth.
     

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