Pentax 645D

Discussion in 'Medium Format' started by p_l_jensen, Feb 8, 2006.

  1. Current status. For sale in 12 months. Working models to be shown at
    Photokina in fall. 22Mp price ~$ 8000
    Body design a mix of whats shown at the Tokyo show last year.
     
  2. I am eagerly waiting for it.
    http://view.stern.de/fc/user/5932/
     
  3. That is actually not a bad price for a MF, are MF digital suppose to be full frame?
     
  4. It is not full frame but has been described as close to full frame.
     
  5. "For sale in 12 months."<p>Hopefully they can hang on for that long.
     
  6. Hmmmm ..... they were saying that its 18MP kodak CCD equipped, now its 22MP. Wonder if they feel the heat from recent Mamiya ZD delivery and all the upcoming Digital Backs. Still I believe if they can start deliver the 18MP body before summer holidat at the anticipated price ( roughly same as Canon 1Ds Mk.II ) it still made pretty viable product ..

    Might be we will be hearing more come PAM and PIE
     
  7. 12 months -- you mean after the holiday quarter that's every camera maker's biggest
    of the year?

    Hmm.

    Somehow I think that Pentax has moved far too slowly on this and there isn't a large
    enough market for them to survive in MF digital. If I were amenable to wagering, I'd
    put a small amount on this camera never coming out, probably because Pentax will
    be bought out by Samsung and marketing efforts put on 35mm digital.
     
  8. "Somehow I think that Pentax has moved far too slowly on this and there isn't a large enough market for them to survive in MF digital"


    Pentax will not make a MF DSLR until it can be made in such a way that it is suitable for field use. That means compact size and not needing a power outlet to function. In addition, sensor technology must be at such a state that the camera can be sold at a price that warrant some sales volume. So far, digital MF isn't really happening and it won't until prices come down so much that they are within reach for the amateur.
    The camera may even be as "cheap" as $6000 according to some and will be smaller than the high end Canons. Somebody has to "create" the MF digital market and Pentax 645D could be instrumental in this. Not only will it be the cheapest MF DSLR, it also has a fleet of affordable, highly regarded lenses to go with it. In contrast to some other MF brands.
     
  9. I must agree with Pal. If indeed the Pentax is near full frame and 22 Mp, it would be competing with the Phase One backs not the Canon, and doing so at a much lower price.
     
  10. The only MAJOR problem for Pentax and this strategy is Timing/Cost versus competition.
    Competition from whatever Canon comes up with next(probably very close to 22MP) will be
    fierce as it will no doubt be more competiviely priced to the 4-5K High end Nikon D2X.
    Pentax will be too late to the party I'm afraid wearing last years dress. By the time they come
    to market, I highly doubt that they will be competive given their performance thus far in the
    DSLR arena. If they could somehow have done this 12 months sooner, say PMA this month,
    then they would have a chance at this price point.
     
  11. FYI

    http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=315495
     
  12. Somebody has to "create" the MF digital market and Pentax 645D could be instrumental in this.​

    That's the problem -- the assumption that there is a large enough, valid market for this is questionable, and the idea that three companies could possibly compete in it is ridiculous. With Canon aiming for a 24MP full-frame 35mm camera at the same (or lower) price point as Pentax -- yet with a huge advantage in available (and more affordable) lenses -- I really doubt that enough of a market exists for Pentax to be profitable.
     
  13. canon might also lower its price for its 1DS range(an update due soon) to fight off competition. pentax should hav the camera out on the streets before Photokina 2006
     
  14. .[Z.

    Interesting nom de plume, I understand your point, but disagree. If Pentax plans on a 22 MP sensor about 645 in size, it should outperform a 24 MP 35mm-sized sensor in every respect (improved S/N, dynamic range, low noise at high ISO etc.). They would be entirely different cameras. Pentax medium format lenses are not appreciably more expensive than Canon L lenses, I don�t think that would be a major factor (this has to be a first in forum postings, has anyone ever had to deny that Pentax lenses were too expensive?) Also there is a huge reservoir of inexpensive used Pentax lenses available, unlike Canon where the mount change and popularity of Canon digital cameras has created a sellers� market.
     
  15. Do you all really think that the ultra high-end commercial pros that still shoot 6x7 and 4x5 are waiting around for Canons new digital offerings? Get real. The quality of MF digital blows 35mm digital away in the same way that MF film blows 35mm film away. Even the Kodak 16MP pro backs kill the 16MP 1ds at lower ISOs. When the dust settles, MF (digital) will still be the king of resolution, tonality, and dynamic range. Its low price will also open the world of digital MF up to high-end portrait and wedding photographers who could not afford the ultra expensive Fujiblads, or Mamiya digital offerings. The 645D will make Pentax a lot of money.
     
  16. Do you all really think that the ultra high-end commercial pros that still shoot 6x7 and 4x5 are waiting around for Canons new digital offerings?​

    How many are you saying there are, Todd? Enough to fund 2-3 competitors? for how long?
     
  17. every freaking wedding photog? who would you rather pay, a guy with a wimpy 35mm knockoff or someone with "some serious gear"? given a similar price to canon offering i suspect d645 would sell like hotcakes.
     
  18. Yes. Its a very big world out there with quite a few commercial photographers who need more than what 35mm digital can offer. You can count on Pentax to deliver a great camera. In fact, they have more digital imaging experience than Hasselblad, Mamiya, or Rollei put together.
     
  19. The Pentax 645 film camera had one weakness no interchangable back. Now we see most people would rather have no film transport and a dedicated digital slr rather than expensive interchangable digital backs. This is so that the electronic features of digital integration make more sense than transposing F-stop and shutter speed settings like the old Blads. When you now have to look at histograms and adjust white balance who has time for winding cranks or non return mirror mechanisms.

    If Pentax makes a simple AP camera with spot; CW and manual mode, and all the digital speed to shoot 3-4 shot sec. at the same price as Canon they have it made. Smart buyer will save on the back end buying all the P67 and P645 lenses that will work fine on the new camera.

    Lets not forget all those Pentax p67 and p645 owners who kept their film gear rather then selling them of cheap. This is a large pool of potential buyers of the system. I feel Hasselblad ignored their base comming out a Fuji-centric system. If you have a load of Pentax glass then the price of the Body is not that bad a deal.
     
  20. "Yes. Its a very big world out there with quite a few commercial photographers who need
    more than what 35mm digital can offer. You can count on Pentax to deliver a great
    camera. In fact, they have more digital imaging experience than Hasselblad, Mamiya, or
    Rollei put together."

    But they do not have more experience than Canon who also make their own chips. Many
    many pros use the 1DS, 1DS11 and now the Nikon D2x who once used Hassys and
    Mamiyas, don't kid yourself. It is stated in the linked article above that the Pentax chip
    size will be bigger than 35mm BUT less than 645. Given the huge technology advantage
    that a verticle supplier such as Canon brings to the equation, its not a forgone conclusion
    that whatever relatively inexpensive larger format chip that Pentax can get its hands on for
    the 645 will have better image quality than whatever Canon can come up with. I would
    love to see Pentax pull it off(and I would be first in line to buy one) but the cards are really
    stacked against them on this one. The high end pros that have a budget and need for
    anything greater than 22MP or more today will be(or already are!) shooting 39MP backs
    when the Pentax comes out. A wedding photographer has very little need for anything
    more than what Canon, Nikon or Fuji offer today.
     
  21. Its a very big world out there with quite a few commercial photographers​

    I ask how many and that's the best you can come up with? No hard numbers, no consideration of the dramatic shrinkage of MF sales and usage, the wholesale transition to 35mm digital by pros, the acceptance of of 35mm digital by clients, the comparitively small sales of the Fujiblad itself...
    Sounds like the Leica fanatics in recent years, to tell the truth.
     
  22. I am sorry Z. I guess you have access to the total number of pros that are in no way interested in a 645D. You better hurry up and get those number to Pentax. I sure that they do not have any type of market research system that they employ before spending millions of dollars developing a pro grade camera.
     
  23. "the dramatic shrinkage of MF sales and usage, the wholesale transition to 35mm"


    But isn't this exactly due to the lack of an "affordable" MF based digital solution? And isn't this what Pentax seems to be trying to do something about?
    Arguments that it is too late since everyone and their grandmother have switched to 35mm doesn't hold water. Photographers have switched from 35mm film to MF for decades and theres no reason why this shouldn't continue with digital the moment prices for digital MF will reach a level mortals can afford.
    Arguments about 35mm being good enough isn't valid either since nothing is good enough. Thats why some have used larger format over MF and I'm sure most would want to have large format quality if it could be had at an acceptable hassle/price factor.
     
  24. No Todd, I guess the point is that *you* seem willing to defend the late entry of
    Pentax into a shrinking market, and when *you* refer to 'the high end commercial
    pros' who would presumably be interested in such a camera, you balk at actually
    discussing how large this market is.
     
  25. Isn't this exactly due to the lack of an "affordable" MF based digital solution? And isn't this what Pentax seems to be trying to do something about?​

    Remind me how much Pentax says this camera body will cost, then explain why (or how many) pros who have successfully migrated to 35mm digital would now want to go back.
     
  26. "No Todd, I guess the point is that *you* seem willing to defend the late entry of Pentax into a shrinking market,"


    1) Pentax aren't late. In fact, you cannot (yet) buy a MF DSLR (the Mamiya isn't yet in shops - Pentax is one year away - not much in grand scheme of things). Only digital backs for film (film is dead BTW) cameras at prices that make sure the stuff doesn't sell in volumes making them pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. In fact it seems like Pentax may be first on the market of an "affordable" DSLR with a sensor of about twice the area of what you can put into a Canon.
    2) The market isn't shrinking. It is expanding. It is the film MF market that is shrinking. But so is 35mm film market.
    35mm size isn't brick wall limit for sensor size. It never was for film and never will be for digital.
    The viability of larger sensors depend on price, not whether someone have bought a Canon.
     
  27. Late entry for MF digital, in general.

    Even with digi-backs for extant film bodies, sales are quite low -- there's a reason for
    that, namely that pros are choosing 35mm digital and are getting the job done.

    and what you personally think doesn't matter in the frand scheme of things is
    irrelevant to a company which must make significant investments for a questionable
    return, Pal.
     
  28. A rough estimate of potential demand for a 645D is some fraction of existing Pentax 645 and 67 bodies in use, actively or sitting in a closet (presumably a large number). Since anyone who has one of those bodies usually has a collection of lenses as well, he/she would welcome a 645D as a low cost path to high quality digital(if that�s where they want to go). The alternative is to sell the Pentax lenses at bargain-basement prices and then spend a fortune on new glass
     
  29. Were all those pros who you suggest were formally shooting MF not doing fine before the advent of high end digital imaging technology? Of course they were, but they switched anyway because of the additional benefits that digital is able to offer. Why then would they not switch back to MF digital that is able to offer better dynamic range, tonality, and resolution than what 35mm digital can offer. Sales for MF backs are low because they are too expensive, and a pain to use. The 645D AF body will be less than the V96C back. And at less than half of the price of the H2D or the Rollie digital bundle, Hasselblad and Rollei should be worried. Also remember that the 645 crop is much more useful for advertising and portraiture than the ridiculously long 35mm crop.
     
  30. rj

    rj

    If the cost is 8k or less, Pentax and Mamiya are going to essentially create a market to bring pros and amateurs seeking larger sensors, more dynamic range, higher megapixels, presumably less noise ect. that a larger sensor can have. If Canon makes a 22mp camera that utilizes a 35mm size sensor, than a 22mp camera that utilizes a near 645 size sensor is going to be better in the users mind, bigger and more is always better. This is why there is a hype for full frame digital and this will be so in the future with larger than 35mm sensor cameras.
     
  31. Just a thought: Pentax is a unique company, as far as I know they are primarily family-owned, are often late (or never)entering into trends and have pretty inept advertising (I like that); however, they have have a history of producing some excellent, simple, functional, inexpensive and popular cameras, e.g. Spotmatic, 645, 67 to mention the obvious. Maybe the 645D is the next.
     
  32. It is a publicly traded corporation on the Tokyo Exchange.
     
  33. Z:

    That does not preclude majority family ownership. In any event, I�m sorry I mentioned it. I have no evidence; I simply recalled reading it somewhere. In any event, should Pentax produce a 645-sized, 22MP camera at $8000, many of the 35mm-sized-sensors users will migrate. Why? People always aspire and migrate to affordable quality and current technology indicates that larger sensors are better.
     
  34. Think not about your expanding and contracting markets. Think about instead a new market for which no man has any comprehension. We are evolving. New applications will arise with new equipment. What fun we will have with bigger files, new larger printers, more powerful computers, and new paper bases. And all things will become affordable as the industry becomes mature and profitable.

    Nikon and Canon right now remind me of Ford and General Motors a few decades ago. If the photography market is shrinking in any way, why are so many new company names getting into the business? It is because there are openings. If Pentax does not do this, somebody else will.
     
  35. Which business is "the business" you refer to? There's digicams, DSLRs, MF backs, and
    MF DSLRs, with some overlap. Take a good look at who's going where, and you'll see
    why companies are getting out of the MF market rather than entering it.
     
  36. Think about instead a new market for which no man has any comprehension. We are evolving.​

    We are Borg. You will be assimilated.
     
  37. Z

    You will buy a Pentax 645D, resistance is futile.
     
  38. Let's look 10 years down the road when the technology has a very level playing field and is not the constraint of the image quality. Now that you have transported yourself that 2016, ceteris peribis, doesnメt quality boil down to the quality of glass and the frame size if thatメs all you have left?

    My thoughts exactly:
    "Do you all really think that the ultra high-end commercial pros that still shoot 6x7 and 4x5 are waiting around for Canons new digital offerings? Get real."
     
  39. Anyone with MF and LF experience knows the difference, especially
    in the wide angle, which is not made up by mere more Canon megapixels.

    Watch what Michael Reichmann says today, who has been the Canon's
    best promoter. The lens not the sensor is the limiting factor so no
    new 35mm body would be any helpful.

    Film or digital, if you want quality you have to put 35mm behind.

    Leping Zha
    http://www.lepingzha.com
     
  40. Latest from Pentax is that it will be announced at PMA this year. Check it out, 31.6 megapixels!
    http://www.pentaximaging.com/footer/news_media_article?ArticleId=9590557 Model name (tentative): PENTAX 645 Digital
    Kodak-developed extra-large CCD image sensor with 31.6 total megapixels (tentative
    Compatibility with existing smc PENTAX 645 interchangeable lenses
    A pair of storage-media slots for the loading of an SD memory card and a CompactFlash card
    Market launch schedule to be announced at a later date
     
  41. Steven:

    For those of us with 645 lenses it's good news that Pentax is continuing to work on the 645D. The "Market launch schedule to be announced at a later date" is a little troubling, particularly since this thread is already a year old. Maybe by the time the 645D actually appears, sensor prices will have dropped enough that I'll be able to afford one without a mortgage.
     
  42. Based on Pentax previous track record (the K10D), I would guess that the 645 Digital is six to eight months away from release...
     
  43. News, but not good news.
    "Pentax has revived plans to launch its long-awaited 645 Digital medium-format camera, four years after a mock-up was first shown. The camera will go on display at the Photo Imaging Expo show in Tokyo later this month, said John Carlson, product marketing and support manager at Pentax USA. He told Amateur Photographer that the 645 Digital is expected to go on sale in Japan. However, it is unclear whether the camera will be sold in Europe. And Carlson told us that it will not be marketed in the United States because Pentax predicted it would only sell 200 units there.
    We understand that Pentax Japan has decided to aim the camera at the high-end market, so it seems unlikely it will be an affordable, enthusiast-level, model"
    Pentax 645D announcement at PMA
     
  44. There are lots of photographers, including myself, with a large assortment of Pentax MF lenses. I'm currently using some of mine with adapters on my Canon digital bodies. I for one, will certainly consider buying the 645D if it comes to pass and lives up to expectations. Pentax is dramatically underestimating the market if they think they would only sell 200 of the 645Ds in the US. That type of comment reminds me of the time in the early 80s that Ray Dolby told me there would at best only be a market for 10,000 home surround sound systems worldwide.
    Pentax MF optics, generally speaking, hold up against the expensive stuff from Germany and Japan, and are bargains on the used market at the moment. If the 645D turns out to be real I suspect prices for used lenses will bump up fairly dramatically.
     

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