Parkinson's Disease - the photographer's disease??

Hello all,

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I was reading Mary Alinder's bio of Adams and saw something that caught my eye. She said Parkinson's was the photographers disease. Apperantly a number of prominent photogs have had it. We all know exposure to any kind of chemicals is bad. I've even heard the chems affect male sperm.

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Question is, Has anyone heard of any documented information linking photo chems and this disease(s)?

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Thanks again, Jeff.

"We all know exposure to any kind of chemicals is bad."

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Yes, one should especially avoid dihydrogen oxide. Symptoms of

excessive exposure include frequent urination, bloating, and an

overall feeling of wetness.

There were Peggy Bourke-White and Edward Weston -- I don't know of

any others. Two cases don't make a syndrome, and making such a

statement doesn't make it factual. I enjoyed the book too, but it is

definitely written on the "sensational" side.

Jeff

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I'm a physician and also like to think of myself as a photographer.

My medical specialty is Neurology which, of course, places

Parkinson's dz within my area of interest. Although exposure to

several toxins is known to produce movement disorders resembling

Parkinson's dz in humans, there is no evidence to suggest that

traditional photographic chemicals (when used in the traditional

manner!)cause a Parkinson's syndrome. Many people from all walks of

life suffer from Parkinson's dz and Parkinsonian syndromes. Hope

that helps.

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Patrick

There have been two attorneys here in the town where I live that have

had Parkinson's disease. Does this mean that court rooms are toxic?

I have two elderly friends that were photographers their entire life

and they have various neurological disorders. One of the men has

paripheral neuropothy(?). Not sure what the other specific diagnosis

was. He lives in Germany. As a result, I do not put my hands in the

chemistry, as was so prevelant in years past and I am making sure

that I have a working venelation system in my new darkroom. My JOBO

has been a Godsend.

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Sure makes you wonder what exposure to certain chemicals can do given

the right set of circumstances.

"We all know exposure to any kind of chemicals is bad".

I stay away from sodium chloride. (except on most of my food)And then

I like acetic acid when accompanied by pickles, especially on my

hamburgers.

Promulgating myths doesn't help anyone. Parkinsons affects more than

just photographers and many who have never done photography at all.

We have a lot more to fear from our own governments than all the

photo chemicals put together.

If you want to worry, better start a campaign against carrots. EVERY

person who ate carrots in 1880 is now dead. Makes as much sense as

photographers & Parkinsons disease.

Didn't you see the article "Shooting Past Eighty" in Vanity Fair a

couple months back?

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The stuff under your sink is more hazardous than the stuff in most

darkrooms. I am not suggesting you snort powdered pyro or guzzle

selenium, but put things in perspective.

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Adams spent the last 10-15 years of his life in the darkroom making

more prints than I will ever make in my life. He lived to be 82 and

died of heart failure (although cancer was through out his body). I

really don't think I have anything to worry about.

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O. Winston Link died in front of a train station at 87. Aaron

Siskind ate his last pastrami sandwhich at 87 and his buddy Harry

Callahan challenged us till he was 87. Frederick Sommer made it to

93 and he looked better than some of those dead chickens he shot.

Imogen Cunningham made it to 93 and did a book on nonegenarians.

Brett Weston was 82 when he passed away. Cole had a stroke a while

back but he's still giving workshops at 82. Alfred Stiegliz may have

been the "Grand Old Man" but he made it to 82. Bernice Abbot did

pretty good for herself (and Atget as well) at 93. Andre Kertesz

made it to 91. Eliot Porter toted his Linhof till he was 89 and

Josef Sudek took 66 years to reuinte with his left arm.

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I like my odds.

There is a web page on photographic chemistry that speculates that

amidol and pyro may have led to Westons "early" death. First of all,

thats all it is, speculation. Second of all, 72 years of age was

hardly an "early" age to die in the 1950's!

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IMO, the important thing is how to react to the potential danger of

photo chemicals without overreacting. Certainly, things like pyro and

amidol and some of the other less mainstream chemicals are potentially

dangerous if mishandled or ingested, and should be treated with

respect (gloves, masks, venitlation etc, which Weston probably didnt

use any of). they are known to be unhealthy if mistreated but theres

still no evidence of them causing Parkinson's.

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So answer to your question is a definite "no", although that doesnt

mean a link wont be found in the future. proper handling should negate

any potential risk.

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My two best friend's mothers have or had Parkinson's disease. But

there is no evidence that being a friend of mine causes Parkinson's.

;-)

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My father was a professional photographer for many years, back in the

days when few of today's precautions were taken. We had a darkroom in

our basement and I dont even remember there being any ventilation!

(and no I'm not recommending that). He did color, B&W, and dealt with

many different chemicals of the time. He lived to be 76 and died of

heart disease, having never developed any exposure related ilness.

I'm sorry, that should have been "Josef Sudek took 56 years to

reunite with his right arm."

After some twenty and so years breathing B&W chemistry, I've made a

decision: never drink Coke any longer. Changed for beer and wine. I'm

also willing to live just seventy or eighty years.

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Cesar B.

Hello all,

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Some said that weston edward parkinson was linked to his use

of the pyrogallol developper. But nothing really prove it. that's

sure that it is better to avoid to much contact with developer. But I

could name other photographer who use such developper for all

their life and they don't have amy problem.

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regards

Sorry to be a party pooper, but some of the responses above take

flippancy to the point of foolishness. If you don't understand the

toxicity of the chemicals you are dealing with, then you shouldn't be

using them. There is an unproven link between repeated exposure to

pyrogallol and Parkinson's disease, as well as kidney and liver

damage, but it is clear that it is easily absorbed through contact

with the skin. Pyrogallol, glacial acetic acid, selenium are all

toxic and/or caustic, and all photographic chemicals need to be

treated with respect.

It is my web page (article on mixing developers) that speculates that

Weston may have been affected by the chemicals he worked with. I

admit it is speculation, but perhaps not entirely unwarranted (I

state "it is possible", not that it is a fact). I note the photograph

of him by Adams that shows his fingernails completely black with

chemical stains. Fact is, he never used gloves.

I posted the following in photo.net in 1997:

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"Why do great photographers live so long?

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"Sure, a few died young on the job (Capa, Bischof, Chim, Burrows) and

a few only lived to their late 60s or early 70s (EWeston, Bourke-

White, WEvans, White, Lange) but most of the greats have far outlived

the average life-expectancy of their time--especially those who died

more than a half-century ago. To wit:

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Wm.H.Jackson, 99; Alfred Eisenstaedt, 96; Edward Steichen, 94;

Berenice Abbott, 93; Imogen Cunningham, 93; Alma Lavenson, 92; Eliot

Porter, 93; Jacques-Henri Lartigue, 92; Andre Kertesz, 91; Aaron

Siskind, 90?; Frederick Evans, 89; Horace Bristol, 88; August Sander,

88; Harold Edgerton, 87; Paul Strand, 86; Man Ray, 86; Brassai, 85;

Alvin Langdon Coburn, 84; Edward S. Curtis, 84; Alfred Stieglitz, 82;

Ansel Adams, 82; Brett Weston, 82?; Peter Henry Emerson, 80; Gjon

Mili, 80; Josef Sudek, 80....

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"Some, of course, are still going (strong?): as of late 1997, Manuel

Alvarez Bravo is 95, Cartier-Bresson is 89, Yousuf Karsh is 89,

Wright Morris is 87, Harry Callahan and Gordon Parks are both 85. And

some, I can't find out if they're still around but if they're gone

it's only been in the last couple of years: Ruth Bernhard (b. 1905);

Frederick Sommer (b. 1905); Andreas Feininger (b. 1906), and Horst P.

Horst (b. 1906). (Feel free to clarify or add others--or to correct

if my numbers are wrong.)

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"Why is this? Is it simply that the drive to create gives one reason

to keep living, just as many other great artists (Picasso, Frank

Lloyd Wright, Michelangelo, Monet, O'Keeffe) have lived into their

late 80s or 90s? Frankly, I was hoping to conclude that breathing the

fumes from darkroom chemicals is actually GOOD for you, so of course

I got quite excited last year when scientists discovered that

selenium can increase human longevity--but some of those on the list

above didn't do their own darkroom work (or didn't tone their prints)

so I guess that's not it...."

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{End of 1997 post, on into the present:}

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In the intervening four years, naturally, some of the "still going

strong" on my 1997 list have moved on, including Morris, Callahan,

Sommer, Feininger, and Horst, but as far as I know Bravo, Karsh, HCB,

Parks, and Bernhard are hanging in there, well into their 90s.

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The chemical-illness connection is certainly a reasonable question,

but as Sean Yates notes above, in terms of longevity it's not a bad

line of work to be in...

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...Before someone else picks my nit, I think Gordon Parks was born in

1912, so he's not "well into his 90s." And is Karsh still around?

(Once people stop photographing, you often don't hear much more about

them until you read their obituary! There's a lesson in there

somewhere....).

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I agree with FW above (except for the "unproven link" to Parkinson's

part-where is the link, other than Edward Weston and a very small

minority of others??). Thats what I was trying to point out, and

perhaps did poorly, thats its easy to scoff at exaggerated risks and

go the other extreme, and be too cavalier about chemical exposure.

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Ed, I think I actually saw that quote on mrjones's page, but it

appears to have been lifted directly from yours. ;-)

I agree 100-percent on the risk and hope my post about longevity won't

be misconstrued as implying there's nothing to worry about. I stopped

using stop bath in the darkroom 10 years ago because I figured

anything that ripped so fiercely into my sinuses couldn't be good for

a person, especially over the long term (I print only--don't develop

negs--so water works fine for me).

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Re: the black fingernails, that's from Amidol, isn't it? I know that

Brett Weston, who was not above pretension, seemed to flash them as a

badge of honor: in some pictures of BW he seems to be positioning that

left(?) hand in a way that people can see the black nails and

presumably ask about how they got that way. ("Well, darling, I'm a

photographer, see...") Brett's dad, on the other hand, probably didn't

know better--or was too poor/frugal to spend money on gloves.

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From Mary Alinder's biography of Ansel Adams: "One of Ansel's last

wishes was that after he died, tissue samples should be taken to

determine what effects the years of photographic chemistry had had on

his body; he was sure that some of the more toxic chemicals, such as

selenium, had preembalmed him. [After Ansel died] Dr. Morrison

complied with Ansel's request, but months later we learned that

nothing of significance had been found."

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I think we need to clarify this once and for all. Ed and/or FW,

exactly what is the "link", proven or unproven, that ties

photochemistry to EW's Parkinson's disease and/or death? the fact that

he used chemicals and that he suffered from/died of a disease that we

dont understand is simply NOT evidence OR a link.

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I dont think there is any scientific evidence whatsoever. If there is,

please show us what it is. I think the link is a rumour and nothing

more. If there was evidence linking photo chemicals to Parkinson's.

someone would be able to provide a long list of photographers with

Parkinson's, and they havent (that still wouldnt prove it but at

least then there would be a link). Can anyone name even 5? 4? 3?

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That said, I still choose to not use pyro because of its toxicity,

even though its probably safe if handled properly. I'm accident prone

and would rather not take the chance. ;-)

The posting about the longevity of photographers got me to thinking.

If photographers tend to live longer (except for PJs that get killed

in the the line of duty) because they don't do something inherently

dangerous like work with machinery or are exposed to more hazardous

substances like asbestos or toxic chemicals (refinery, fireman) or

lifestyle (drinking, smoking, overeating) they'll likely die of an

disease like Parkinsonism which tends to affect the aged more.

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My mother-in-law passed on at 72 and had Parkinson's. She didn't die

from it but it was part of why she died. She got so befuddled that

she couldn't take care of herself and the home she had to be put in

neglected her to death. She wouldn't eat and couldn't fight off a

small infection. Anyway, to the best of my knowledge she wasn't

exposed to any photochemicals. I believe her mother had Parkinsons

and has siblings that are now developing the signs so it probably has

a genetic component.

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Cheers,

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Duane

Proof needs to be much more concrete than instances. In fact, there

is some interesting research in the psychology of judgments

demonstrating that we often use the ease with which instances come to

mind as a basis for judgments. So, for example, if we are asked for

three instances when we behaved assertively (which is pretty easy to

do), we rate ourselves as more assertive. However, if we are asked to

come up with 12 examples of assertive behavior (which is pretty

difficult to do), we rate ourselves as less assertive even though we

came up with more instances of a particular behavior (almost as

though we were saying to ourselves 'Man, that was hard - if it was

that difficult, I guess I'm not a very assertive person). Its often

referred to as the availability heuristic i.e., we often seem to make

judgments based on the ease with which information comes to mind

i.e., is available.

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I think thats exactly what's happenning here. Coming up with a few

examples of famous photographers who died of Parkinsons (or come to

think of it cancer, leukemia or some ghastly thing or the other) is

pretty easy to do, from which one makes a judgment that there is a

causal link between being a photographer and disease X.

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Duane raises another excellent point - what is referred to as a

treatment effect. So, it is not sufficient to show that the

percentage of photographers who suffer from Parkinsons is

statistically greater than the average percentage in the population

(although even that bit of evidence doesn't seem to be forthcoming).

One needs to be able to control for the fact that they live longer to

begin with and are therefore, more susceptible to the diseases that

afflict the elderly. More convincing, of course, would be some

triangulating evidence from pathology etc.

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Again, this is not meant to be a suggestion to drink pyro or make

selenium bongs. There is no doubt that we do use some chemicals that

are hazardous and should be treated with appropriate caution (a

caution that doesn't seem to be exercise with other household

products like bleach, pesticides etc but thats another story).

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OK, I'll shut up now.... Cheers, DJ.

I didn't bother to look up the context of (biographer) Mary Alinder's

reference to Parkinson's as "the photographers' disease" (as the

original poster put it). But before we get all exercised about how

many people really think there might be a connection between

photography and Parkinson's, it might be worth asking whether that

was HER designation (she's a medical professional, quite intelligent

despite being married to a photographer) or whether that was more

Ansel's perspective (by the time Alinder met Ansel, he was a

superstitious and idiosyncratic old guy whose unscientific theories

about Parkinson's would have doubtless been shaped primarily by

watching two of his most influential contemporaries--Bourke-White and

Edward Weston--die of the disease).

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Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure that this discussion has been the

first in this forum to elicit the phrase "selenium bongs."

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Wayne ; I can't find a reference to support a link between pyro and

Parkinson's disease, but I would refer you to pages 60 - 64 of <i>The

Book of Pyro</i> which discusses the toxicity of this chemical, with

supporting references, in some detail. In particular, long term

exposure does appear to cause kidney damage.<p>

Anyway, it's time for some sex on the beach - sorry, I mean some

negative spotting.....

WOW!!! The LF FORUM is now into epidemiology and psychology. And why

not? it all ties together. The LFF may even teach enough English to

straighten our syntax and learn to say that 'we dip hands in

chemicals' and not in 'chemistry'. Perhaps it may even help us

appreciate that everything on earth, -no exceptions except for

physical phenomena is a chemical. I cringe at the perversion of the

use of the word 'chemical' as for example in a 'chemical-free world'.

That is a vaccuum. Aside from those quibbles my thanks to the

historians, the physician, the psychologist, and the long list of

amateur epidemiologists, ......on short leave from the darkroom.