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Overexposed lines on negative


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Hello everyone,

 

I have some issues with my developments lately and don’t know if it comes from the camera or my development process. I have almost systematically 2 overexposed parallel lines (see photos), one on each side of the frame (left and right with hasselblad), but sometimes only one. Do you have any idea what these can be ? There is nothing visible between the frames but it clearly follows a direction from one frame to the next. It keeps coming rolls after roll all in HC110 B with development times between 7 and 9 min. The intensity of the artefact seems to vary and it mainly shows on even middle gray/light surface (ie sky, snow, etc.).

 

The hasselblad repair service thinks it's process related I do too since I get it from different lenses/back/body/film but only from my hasselblad cameras so far. Not the fujis. I have developed films for a very long time and my agitation method has been problem free for the last decade. I use mainly stainless steel tank with hewes reels but tried the paterson system and got the problem too except this one time when I use two reels in a 3 reels tank for greater agitation. But since the problem is not 100% systematic I can't be sure and this is not normal that I should need to do this...

 

I invert the kodak way for the first 30s then 5 sharp inversions in 5s every 30s.

 

It's not x-rays or drying marks. I tried a pre water bath for 2min with no effect. Picture of the film itself would be pointless as this is too subtle to show on picture.

 

I would really appreciate some technical insight if possible as I am loosing my mind over this. And getting tired of wasting good film shooting the sky...

 

Many thanks in advance !

 

SWCpb.thumb.jpg.f1db2e342a4c7d1b03c48a8510b7f711.jpg

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The process is the same except I now use Ilford film since kodak has gone berserk on prices. After a few more tests it appears that the issue is barely perceptible on trix that has a thick base+fog and much more visible on ilford films that have a clearer base, FP4+ showing the most effect. So maybe I had the problem for years and did not realise as I don't take pictures of empty blue sky that much... I also have 2 new camera bodies from different sources so I 1st though camera problem but the same problem shows on both bodies and 2 backs... Plus the hasselblad service shop here in Paris has checked and serviced the equipment. And a couple rolls to a pro lab didn't show the same issue. It could be luck but I agree it most probably is process related.

 

So I tried to change my process. I changed tanks, reels, inversion method, but still there. The best I can get is by using a 3 reels tank with one empty reel to get even more agitation. But this is not normal...

 

I also started to use tetenal superfix plus 1+4 5min

Edited by vania_plemiannikov
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It's best to use a wetting agent but it must be the right ratio to water ... 200:1 or whatever it says on the container. If it's too weak, it's not much better than plain water.

 

How do you wash the films ? Do you just fill the tank and swoosh then empty out a few times, or do you leave the tank under a tap for 15-30mins ? The fixer needs to be washed out thoroughly.

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It's best to use a wetting agent but it must be the right ratio to water ... 200:1 or whatever it says on the container. If it's too weak, it's not much better than plain water.

 

How do you wash the films ? Do you just fill the tank and swoosh then empty out a few times, or do you leave the tank under a tap for 15-30mins ? The fixer needs to be washed out thoroughly.

I'll have to calculate the wetting agent I use 2 drops in a Tupperware full of distilled water. Washing is in a film washer for 20min. In any case it's 200% not some drying marks. It's in the emulsion and I even died one roll horizontally...

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Wow. That is frustrating.

 

I hear a couple of conflicting statements one pointing to camera the other to process - probably because troubleshooting is still a work in progress:

1) Never on Fujis, but on both your Hasselblad bodies.

2) Problem can be eliminated by using 3 reel tank with with only 2 loaded rolls to allow for more agitation.

I pretty sure one of these must be wrong - I'm inclined to think 1).

 

If that is the case and If I were you, I would introduce major process related changes. Ideally one by one.

  • Pre-soak in water prior to development.
  • Developer: A different dilution/time - dilution H for example. Or try another developer if you have it available.
  • Stop bath: If you use it, try to just use water rinse. If you don't use stop, then try it (you can make it from citric acid if you have it in your household).
  • Fix: try a different dilution. I don't know Tetenal, but Adox is also useable at 1+7 with extended time.
  • Wash/Dry: Well - I don't think it is there the problem lies - but easy to see after fixation if the problem is there or not prior to washing.

Niels
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I’m not familiar with the Hassleblad system (sadly) but might there be a light seal issue on the body side of the camera where the back locates. When you wind on, it pulls the back very slightly off the body, and light leaks in at those two spots. It just leaks when you wind on is my feeling, and just in two discrete places, which is why you get parallel lines. That doesn’t explain your wierd bubble artefact though. Had a similar issue with an RB67.
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Look at the first frame (second picture). Those are not just wavy lines running along the film, but circles. Foam.

Definitely came to be during processing or, indeed, washing and drying.

 

I would bet it is the latter: drying. The two lines will probably match up with the clip used to hang the film.

Make sure the film is dry, i.e. no water running down or drops remaining on the surface. You have to be careful, but run the film between your fingers to wipe both sides. And make sure that there is no water trapped in the upper clip that will leak out and run down the strip.

 

And re being careful: the 4th frame (first picture) shows a mark caused by buckling the film while handling it.

That frame (the first on the roll) also shows that the pattern starts as the impression of a circular feature. Too big, almost, to be a bubble.

What are you using to wash, and hang the film to dry?

Edited by q.g._de_bakker
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To narrow the possibilities, check if the lines appear:

 

1. Immediately after fixing, before washing.

2. Immediately after washing, before wetting agent.

3. Immediately after wetting agent, before wiping. (I don't recommend wiping, anyway.)

4. Immediately after wiping, before drying.

5. After drying. Dried up soapy water residue.

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Wow. That is frustrating.

 

I hear a couple of conflicting statements one pointing to camera the other to process - probably because troubleshooting is still a work in progress:

1) Never on Fujis, but on both your Hasselblad bodies.

2) Problem can be eliminated by using 3 reel tank with with only 2 loaded rolls to allow for more agitation.

I pretty sure one of these must be wrong - I'm inclined to think 1).

 

If that is the case and If I were you, I would introduce major process related changes. Ideally one by one.

  • Pre-soak in water prior to development.
  • Developer: A different dilution/time - dilution H for example. Or try another developer if you have it available.
  • Stop bath: If you use it, try to just use water rinse. If you don't use stop, then try it (you can make it from citric acid if you have it in your household).
  • Fix: try a different dilution. I don't know Tetenal, but Adox is also useable at 1+7 with extended time.
  • Wash/Dry: Well - I don't think it is there the problem lies - but easy to see after fixation if the problem is there or not prior to washing.

Fuji shows the problem too so it's not a light leek definitely even in tank since I have used at least 3 different tanks. I am starting to wonder if I can have a bad batch of HC110 and if a bad developer can do something like that... The problem is not always obvious enough to spot on the negative sometimes it is barely visible and only shows on the contact print. I guess the next step is to buy new chemistry.

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Look at the first frame (second picture). Those are not just wavy lines running along the film, but circles. Foam.

Definitely came to be during processing or, indeed, washing and drying.

 

I would bet it is the latter: drying. The two lines will probably match up with the clip used to hang the film.

Make sure the film is dry, i.e. no water running down or drops remaining on the surface. You have to be careful, but run the film between your fingers to wipe both sides. And make sure that there is no water trapped in the upper clip that will leak out and run down the strip.

 

And re being careful: the 4th frame (first picture) shows a mark caused by buckling the film while handling it.

That frame (the first on the roll) also shows that the pattern starts as the impression of a circular feature. Too big, almost, to be a bubble.

What are you using to wash, and hang the film to dry?

 

 

I did hang one film to dry horizontally and the problem was still there, so It cannot be a drying issue. I have an overflowing film washer and wash for 20 minutes, then tetenal wetting agent for about 30-60s in distilled water, but also tried no wetting agent I squeegee slightly between my finger and hang it to dry.

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To narrow the possibilities, check if the lines appear:

 

1. Immediately after fixing, before washing.

2. Immediately after washing, before wetting agent.

3. Immediately after wetting agent, before wiping. (I don't recommend wiping, anyway.)

4. Immediately after wiping, before drying.

 

The problem is not always obvious enough to spot on the negative sometimes it is barely visible and only shows on the contact print, but I will pay more attention.

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Thank you all for taking the time to consider my problem and reply. Unfortunately I have not made the slightest progress and just keep wasting hundreds of euros worth of film to the trash…

 

What I have learned so for :

 

1. It’s not a drying issue as I have hanged the film to dry horizontally. I have also tried with/without wetting agent. Although I must say that the streak seems to follow the path of liquid runing along the film, it's unrelated. Also when inside the tank the streaks are parallel to the ground.

2. It’s not a light leak as I have tried 3 different cameras of different brand and all can show the same problem on some frames at least. I also used 3 different tanks at least and metal as well as plastic reels.

2.5. The streaks are mostly apparent on zones V-VIII, can be perceived in zones III-IV, can't be seen in zones I-II.

3. I contacted Ilford and they have been very reactive but say that to their knowledge it is not an issue that could be consistent with film defect.

4. I have tried different agitation method and although I think this might be where at least part of the problem lies, no change in agitation pattern, frequency and intensity changes anything except using a tank with one empty reel to generate more agitation. But I had mixed result with this method. I tried a 3 reels Paterson tank with 2 films only, 1 film (trix) was fine the other one (HP5) had slight streaks but much weaker as one the images provided as an exemple.

5. Ilford films seem much more affect by this than an old batch of trix I still have. Actually I can barely see it on trix and when I do I am unsure it's the same thing. I only recently started to use HP5 so is there something to dig here. I am not inclined in thinking that ilford films are faulty yet but maybe they are less forgiving with this particular issue.

 

So I am left to wonder the following :

1. does anyone know for a fact if a developer can do this ? Maybe I have a bad batch of HC110. I used this developer for decades without issues and now can’t get a film developed without those streaks… After all kodak had some serious issues with D76 recently.

2. Can a film defect (coating or other) produce this ?

3. Can a bad fixer be responsible ?

 

At this point switching the chemistry is the only thing I can see that remains to be tried. After that I guess I can't use film anymore, after 25 years of pratice it's crazy...

Edited by vania_plemiannikov
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After that I guess I can't use film anymore

 

Does that mean you'd like to give digital photography a try ?

 

To continue with home processing of film, one must be prepared to go back to square one when problems occur ... a light-tight bag or dark room for reeling the film, a small tank, one film, one reel, a reputable developer and fixer, both properly prepared, and ensuring everything is spotlessly clean. Pouring of chemicals must be free flowing and constant with no hesitancy or intermittent pouring. Correct times and temperatures are essential also. Each chemical must be drained thoroughly before moving on to the next step. If there's a doubt about the fixer being too old or too exhausted, a small strip of film can be tested first to find out how long it takes to clear the film. If it takes longer than 10 minutes, mix some fresh fixer.

 

Having done everything correctly, and if there's still defects in the film, attention should then be drawn to the manufacture of the film and camera equipment. But since you have eliminated those, the problem must be in your method of processing. I'd advise to go back to the basics. Other than that, change over to digital photography.

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1. does anyone know for a fact if a developer can do this ? Maybe I have a bad batch of HC110. I used this developer for decades without issues and now can’t get a film developed without those streaks… After all kodak had some serious issues with D76 recently.

2. Can a film defect (coating or other) produce this ?

3. Can a bad fixer be responsible ?

 

1. It doesn't look like a developer problem. It looks more like a development problem, such as inadequate agitation. But I think you have eliminated that possibility. I used HC-110 extensively in the 1970s and 1980s and never saw a problem like yours, nor any other fault with it.

 

2. Yes, a defect in film manufacturing could be to blame. Once I bought a 100-sheet box of Kodak print paper that had black streaks. It was a bad batch that affected many people. The store immediately replaced my box with another box manufactured in a different batch. But if Ilford manufactured a bad batch of film, other people should be reporting the same problem. And it shouldn't appear on your Tri-X film.

 

3. It doesn't look like bad fixer -- again, it looks more like inadequate agitation. But I suggest buying new fixer anyway. Once I bought a bottle of fixer that had been sitting on a store shelf too long. Although it cleared and fixed the film, it left a "smoky" band lengthwise, not lines like yours. My defect looked like film fog, except for some reason it affected only the center of the film, not the edges. A bottle of new fixer solved it. Worth a try.

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I can see the 'hand' in the second picture, but if you remember the size of the film frame, it's a tiny hand; the villain would be a newborn with his/her hands soaked in Rodinal!

(that is, I think the hand-shape is accidental)

 

I think you might look again at your film holders. It seems to me that the position of the two stripes in the first picture would roughly line up with the slots that engage with the hooks from the camera body (in pictures of Hasselblads I see on the web - I don't have one). I have no explanation for the third stripe in the second picture, or the bubble shape. The stripes aren't precisely straight, so if it is a light leak, the light must be directional, and changes in the orientation of the camera during winding must explain this, I guess.

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I doubt very much that this is a light leak. Wavy lines? Consistent in 'exposure'? And those bubble-like impressions?

The double line feature also will not 'fit' the hooks. If the theory of camera pushing the magazine back should be valid, those are the spots where you would expect not (!) to see light leaks, because of those hooks.

 

The hand is there, yes. And indeed: tiny.

There's also something that reminded me of the stickers with numbers they use to identify films in labs. But it can't be that. or can it?

 

Re agitation: adding an extra, empty reel on top does not help agitation, but rather restricts the flow of fluids.

 

My best guess is either run down during drying. Or too much wetting agent in the developer (i.e. tanks and reels not washed properly after processing) and inadequate agitation.

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