Opinions on Seagull 4A-109

I posted this question in the general forum and got some good

feedbacks, but I still need to know a bit more. Was hoping to get

responses from the TLR buffs, especially the Seagull users. Is

Seagull's new 109 model a more reliable camera with its 1/500 second

shutter speed and its possible ties with Minolta? I noticed a posting

that mentioned the 4A-1 had focusing accuracy problems. Has anyone

tried the new 109 and if so, is it better than shutterbug's review of

4A-107? My intensions are to shoot Velvia or Provia 400F with this

camera, so the shutter accuracy is important.

 

Thanx...

If you bought it, I think you would want to run home and shoot tests of both viewing lens accuracy and scale accuracy, and do some instrument tests of shutter consistency.

 

The last time I looked at a Seagull I think I noticed that the aperture adjustment did not have notches, so you might have trouble getting consistent exposures even with strobes.

 

I just did a test on my Rolleicord and found that the scale does not agree with the viewing lens. (I also tested a Fuji GSW690 and found that the scale and the rangefinder do agree.) I haven't seen the film for either test yet, so I don't know about scale accuracy.

 

Because of the way they work, the edges of the film exposed with leaf shutters will tend to get less exposure than the center. This effect may be exaggerated with high speeds.

 

Personally, I like shooting slide film with electronic focal plane shutters that allow 1/3 stop adjustments.

Why on earth do you want to buy a Seagull so badly? The negative opinions here outweigh the positive ones on a magnitude of probably 10:1.

 

My second question is, why the freak would you even consider paying $350 for this questionable piece of equipment? For the same price or MUCH less, there are tons of CLA'ed Rolleicords, Yashicamats, and Autocords to be had.

 

Seriously, what are your reasons for wanting a Seagull? It is the newness factor? Just get an old camera and a CLA, or one that has been CLA'ed already. There is a reason why 40 year old cameras like an Autocord are still around. I can't imagine your Seagull 109 being a sought after camera in 2042. LOL.

I would avoid Seagull like the plague. You're much, much better off with a reconditioned Rollei, Mamiya, Yashica or Minolta TLR.

I wanted to add something about the Seagull/Minolta thing.

 

Because bad company A makes a product for better company B, that doesn't mean that company A's original products are now on par with B's or even influenced by B at all.

 

Example? Sam Adams contracts large brewers to make their beer. One such brewer is Iron City. Does that mean that Iron City's own beer is now as good as Sam Adams? Of course not.

 

Nor is that Chrysler LaBaron now as good as a Mercedes.

 

Forget the Minolta factor. Seagull is a joke.

for $150 buy an original mamiyaflex with an 80mm. it will still be working fine 100 years from now, roughly 99 years after your seagull gives up the ghost!! with the millions (literally) or good used TLRs available. i don't understand why the seagull TLR cameras exist.

Ok, you folks talked me out of the Seagull. I was looking forward to that new camera smell, and incidentally it goes on ebay for $260 new -- B&H is the worst camera shop to buy anything from anyways, never mind sticking another $350 in their pocket for a Seagull; I have had a horrible experience with their used department, and according to their customer service I was not the only one!!!

 

So then how is the Yashicamat 124G compared to Rollicord or Ikoflex? I am hoping to get a TLR with bulit-in meter so I don't have to carry my heavy Pentax spotmeter with me. And since I will be using the camera on sailboats, I don't want to dish out too much money for something that may end up at the bottom of the ocean.

 

Steve, thank you for the hint on the light fall offs with leaf shutters. It is very logical - I should have thought about it!!! Will try to run a roll thru my new Mamiya 7 (when it arrives) to make sure that it won't fail me on the corners since I will be primarily use it for landscapes.

In my lowly opinion, from what Ive read about and experienced myself from owning a Yashicamat 124, that it is optically and to a somewhat lesser degree mechanically, the equal or close replica of a Rolleiflex T model, the shutters have been proven to be slightly less reliable, the yashinon lens 4 element coated variety in the Yashicamat 124 and G, are the same design as the Zeiss Tessar in the Rollie. The Yashicamats have coupled meters, but, a camera that at its newest will be 20 years old, and older for the 124, will have a METER that is essentially useless, these meters are only vaguely accurate for incident lighting averaging anyway. The rolleis with meters will have the same issues. A Seagull will have a working meter, and if you are careful with it, might be just fine, I would not put it on the same level as any rollie or the yashicamat either for fit and finish. The rolleiflex models are sturdy, mechanically complex but basically simple, and elegant cameras. A reasonably priced recently CLA'd Rolleiflex 3.5 e/f or 2.8e/f unmetered model is a good buy at around $500. You will pay more for unmarred cosmetica appeal. A really close to Mint 3.5 or 2.8 with the top of the line Planar or Xenotar lens will be closer to a thousand. Consider a rolleicord IV or V series, they are the latest ones made, vintage mid sixties to seventies, may have a working meter, will be in great shape usually, and have the Tessar or Xenar lenses, both incredibly sharp especially stopped down a bit. The higher quality lenses, planar and xenotar are good wider open, even to maximums, IF, they are clean and clear, with no rot, or scratches. If you want the better lens, go with an older unmetered 3.5 or 2.8, the C model of 1953 is a great camera, and can be had for around 400 in excellent shape, but, shop around, try to get a look at it first hand, buy from a reputable dealer or a trustworthy seller on ebay, but, make sure you can return it if its not all it was cracked up to be when advertised. IF you truly want the new camera, Seagull, with metering, get it, but be careful with it, these are not the Tanks of yesteryear tlr construction, they are more fragile, and delicate, but to get your feet wet, its a matter of money. You can invest in a Vintage Rollie, Minolta Autocord, or Yashica, or even Mamiya, but be careful of the condition. I currently own three vintage rolleiflex, a 2.8c, and two 3.5 E models, all unmetered, one with planar one wiht xenotar, and a yashicamat 124, my best is the 50 year old 2.8C

good luck with your search.

I used a newspaper page taped to the refrigerator to test my Fuji.

 

For the scale check, I set the film plane indicator (the circle-bar) 1 m from the paper and set the scale at 1 m.

 

And if the rangefinder image converges at this point then that is OK too.

FWIW, I have personaly known two Seagulls; they both died of shutter failure within a year. I know that's not a very big sample, but that's my experience.

 

One thing I did learn from physics class: If you need to draw a straight line, only plot two points!

Eddie: I came to this thread late; however, in addition to the other comments, let

me add the following. You want to use the camera afloat. Looking down into a TLR

waistlevel finder should get you seasick quickly. I would be sure to get a TLR with a

sportsfinder. As for a spotmeter, they are useful if one knows how to use them. What

you need is a lighter incident reading meter. I carry a Gossen Luna Pro F everywhere

when doing photography. Shooting afoat is where a aptical viewfinder (such as Leica,

Fuji or even Linhof) make the job so much easier.

 

On solid footing, a TLR is great. The Rollei, Mamiya, Minolta or Yachica can produce

quality results, Good luck.

 

Jim

San Diego

Just a bit of update -- I have to tell you folks that James is absolutely right about not being able to use waistlevel finders on the boat as I experienced it first hand last weekend on slightly rough seas and a 22-foot sailboat. Not only it makes you sick, but also trying to frame the shot in reverse order with your head down while being tossed all over the boat is a task!! I had to switch my Kiev 60's waistlevel finder to prism finder in a hurry and yank out my Pentax spot meter (since I don't trust Kiev's meter) in order to shoot a few frames. Bad part is that I can't even trust the Kiev's shutter, either, so we shall see..

 

Many thanks to David Jackson for giving me all the data on the Rolleis and even emailing me the info on the various models and how to use them. I ended up buying a Rolleicord III with Xenar 75mm/3.5 lens for about $140 off the ebay (didn't want to pay too much for a TLR before I am sure about them). It came in yesterday and I am HOOKED!! The build quality alone far exceeds the Seagull's new 4A-109; and this is a camera that was built in 1951. Feels solid, yet light, and sounds and feels like everything works as they should, except for the scratched-up mirror that is screaming for a replacement.

 

I will post my test results of this camera back here shortly.

 

Meanwhile, does anyone know where I can find a replacement mirror for the Rolleicords?!

Eddie, you made an excellent decision. That Rolleicord you bought is the exact same model I have and I just love it. Good move. You'll enjoy it for ages.

I just wanted to thank everyone who talked me into looking for an alternate to Seagull 109. The used and slightly banged up Rolleicord III which I bought for $140 or so has turned out some very beautiful and contrasty shots on the Provia 100F test slide even without using a light meter (I just used the guide on the back of the camera). I was so impressed with the build quality this 51-year-old camera that I spent furthermore on a Rolleiflex 2.8F with Schneider Xenotar lens, but I am sure the Rolleicord will not sit in the closet since it is a very light camera as compared to its bigger brother and the competition.

I am considering purchasing the Seagull camera as well. If any one has

sample photos from Seagull 4A-109, I'd love to see them. It will be perfect if

photos are taken at various conditions / apeatures.

 

thanks

I am really amazed at the number of negative feedbacks posted here about the Seagull 4A109. This is a perfectly fine piece of photo taking equipment that is far better to use and handle than many 50s or 60s TLR which are only available in the second hand market. As an owner of two Rolleiflex F, one Rolleicord V, one Rolleicord VB with complete accessories, one mint Yashicamat 124, Yashica 635 and Yashica D, and finally a Mamiya 330 with three interchangeable black lenses, I STILL prefer to use the 4A107 or better still the 4A109. Some of the pictures taken with a Seagull 4A are shown here:

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/485095

 

There are far too many biased opinions that are plain unfair. I really don?t have to care, as these are the people who are not appreciating a good piece of equipment at their hand, or might have never used a 4A109 in the first place, or simply don?t know how to appreciate a good camera. But I find it gets really silly when these people are preventing other potential photographers to use a good piece of photo equipment. And strange enough, there are people who judge a good piece of equipment thru hear say, without verifying thru first hand what the truth is.

 

The second hand market is dodgy and one can never tell who the seller is and how the equipment was used. Allow me to go thru the list of ?preferred TLRs?:

 

The Rolleicord III?s viewfinder is as dim as midnight and the 4A109 is far brighter and better. I have to replace the Rolleicord focusing screen by a Beattie, which is already the price of a Rolleicord. The Rolleicords? lenses, when used properly, are only on par with the 4A109 or the 4A107 at F5.6. The Rolleicord might have a slight advantage at wide open. The Rolleicord?s accessories are grossly overpriced, and so are the Rolleicords. The Rolleicords are old machines, and many need adjustments and cleaning. Spare parts are out of the question! The Rolleicord shuttle sticks and goes out when they are not used for say a few months. I had bought no less than 3 dodgy Rolleicords from 3 dishonest sellers from the used market. The Yashicamat 124?s cocking shuttle is as fragile, if not worse, than the 4A109. If your 124 can outlast the Seagull, then thank heavens for your luck. The Yashica D and the 635, although are more robust because there isn?t any cocking level, have only a 3 element lens which is no way as good as the 4A109 and 4A107. If you really want a good TLR, buy a Rolleiflex F if you can afford. But the Rolleiflex will break both your bank and your neck.

 

I think all the negative opinions forgot to add one point: Seagull is made in China, and since China is ?yuks?, then anything made in China is ?yuks? . Therefore, Seagull is ?yuks?.

 

By the way, the Nikon Coolpix 5700 gets me seasick easily because it is 'un-SLR', but that does not mean I can't use my Coolpix.

 

 

Ps. I am not from China, I am from Singapore. I am an amateur TLR user, and I don?t depend on the brand ?Seagull? for a living. I am a hard disk engineer, and my company doing bloody dame well.

 

 

http://www.photo.net/photo/485099

I forgot one point:

 

Seagull 4A107 in Singapore is about US$180

Seagull 4A109 in Singapore is about US$205

 

Direct order from China, 4A107 is about US$145, 4A109 is still about US$205. As for the older models, Seagull 4A is about US$50, Seagull 4B is about $30.

 

If you need some good source, here they are:

 

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000O3K

 

http://www.sy916.net (check out the Russian equipment too)

 

All the best.

It would be nice if Seagull could make a TLR of good quality (both mecanical and optical) with 60mm/3.5 or 50mm/4 lenses.

The Seagull appears regularly on Calumet's best seller list. It's hard to imagine that this professional shop would keep selling it if people hated it.

Dear all, time flies and its now end of 2008!

 

I have bought two more 4A-109 and two more 4B-1. These are actually the export models from China (Minolta plant

actually). QC is much better than the domestic models in yesturyears .

 

Why did I buy so many more? The reason is simple. I need one set to shoot, and one set to save in case the factory

is out of production.

 

After all these years, I found that 4A-109s are great for taking street photos. The 4B-s are simply great for portraits

and half body shots. Friends from England, Germany and Minnisota were so impressed they bought one without

question when in Singapore. Afterall, its so cheap! I have seen several posts by Americans in China about the 4B,

the older models in China. They really raved about the picture quality on Black and White. Do a search and you can

find these awesome pictures. Some of them written in Chinese, Kudos!

 

Yes indeed, these cameras are made in 3rd world China. The shuttle blades are awful. After some time, the taking

lens is filled will dust particles from the taking shuttle. So, I would suggest you fire the shuttle many times and send

for service....free from the agent... well.... ces la vie.

 

Many had scolded me for introducing a really 'bad' camera. Colour is too plain, and resolution is poor. After some

checking and investigations, I found the root causes:

 

1. Seagull cameras only have single coated lens. To fully exploit the camera, you need:

 

a. step up ring from 37mm to 49mm or other combination

b. attach a 49m Hoya HMC 81B muti coated filter. It will reduce flare and intensify the colour

c. A lens HOOD is a must. Without it, you are wasting everything. Make sure the lens hood does not viegnette

d. With the advent of many Digital cameras, there are many Hoya HMC 37mm filters. Use a HMV UV on the

viewing lens

 

2. 4B-1 camears are great for portraits. Believe me, Rolleicord Vb is not as good. This is an English designed 3

element Cooke lens. Forget about the 4B, the viewing on the finder is dark as hell.

 

3. Try taking landscapes on the 4A-109 or 4A-107. The two cameras have the same 4 element Tessar designs on

the taking lens. Try to use the 81B filter at all times.It saves the beacon!

 

Enjoy! I will be be in MA for work for a long while. These two are the cameras I will surely use!

 

Kodak T-max B&W film, Rodinal developer and finally a good film scanner. This will keep me busy and happy.

Dear all, time flies and its now end of 2008!

 

I have bought two more 4A-109 and two more 4B-1. These are actually the export models from China (Minolta plant actually). QC is much better than the domestic models in yesturyears .

 

Why did I buy so many more? The reason is simple. I need one set to shoot, and one set to save in case the factory is out of production.

 

After all these years, I found that 4A-109s are great for taking street photos. The 4B-s are simply great for portraits and half body shots. Friends from England, Germany and Minnisota were so impressed they bought one without question when in Singapore. Afterall, its so cheap! I have seen several posts by Americans in China about the 4B, the older models in China. They really raved about the picture quality on Black and White. Do a search and you can find these awesome pictures. Some of them written in Chinese, Kudos!

 

Yes indeed, these cameras are made in 3rd world China. The shuttle blades are awful. After some time, the taking lens is filled will dust particles from the taking shuttle. So, I would suggest you fire the shuttle many times and send for service....free from the agent... well.... ces la vie.

 

Many had scolded me for introducing a really 'bad' camera. Colour is too plain, and resolution is poor. After some checking and investigations, I found the root causes:

 

1. Seagull cameras only have single coated lens. To fully exploit the camera, you need:

 

a. step up ring from 37mm to 49mm or other combination b. attach a 49m Hoya HMC 81B muti coated filter. It will reduce flare and intensify the colour c. A lens HOOD is a must. Without it, you are wasting everything. Make sure the lens hood does not viegnette d. With the advent of many Digital cameras, there are many Hoya HMC 37mm filters. Use a HMV UV on the viewing lens

 

2. 4B-1 camears are great for portraits. Believe me, Rolleicord Vb is not as good. This is an English designed 3 element Cooke lens. Forget about the 4B, the viewing on the finder is dark as hell.

 

3. Try taking landscapes on the 4A-109 or 4A-107. The two cameras have the same 4 element Tessar designs on the taking lens. Try to use the 81B filter at all times.It saves the beacon!

 

Enjoy! I will be be in MA for work for a long while. These two are the cameras I will surely use!

 

Kodak T-max B&W film, Rodinal developer and finally a good film scanner. This will keep me busy and happy.

Jonathan, and all that is better than a Rolleicord bought for $50-75 and then a CLA for $100 how??

 

I still do not get it....a fully CLA'd Rolleicord or even a Minolta Autocord or Yashicamat kicks such total butt over the Seagulls it's not even funny.

 

I do not question the Seagull's abilities. I've used many. But given the choice and approximately the same price I'd go Rollei, Minolta or Yashica every time....

 

--

Richard

 

My Photography Website

 

http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

 

My Flickr River

 

http://flickriver.com/photos/rich8155/popular-interesting/

 

My Commute Photo Blog

 

http://shootingonthefly.blogspot.com/

I was thinking about getting a TLR, but since I never used one before and don't know whether I like it, I didn't want to spend a lot of

money on it. So I was thinking about the seagull. I looked around on flickr and I noticed pictures aren't always super sharp. But I actually

kinda like it, they look a bit like seventies pictures. And if I eventually don't like the picture quality, I can always trade up.

So Jonathan, you wrote it was possible to get the 4B for 30$, I would like to get the 4B-1, I think. Do you have an address where I can

get them so cheap online?

And if you like, can you also tell me a bit more about the differences in quality and operation of the different models?

 

Best wishes,

Ellen

<p>Hello Richard<br>

Nice pictures! I like your composition and your skills.<br>

Of late e-bay appears to have a lot of people selling off their old TLRs. I bought a couple. Given the age of these cameras, they need to be fixed. I now reside near the Boston area and have problems getting them fixed. The basic charges quoted typically $80/hour of work excluding parts. Postage additional. (USPS has not been reliable for me.)<br>

I visited White Mountain New Hampshire several times in late September. The Adorama Seagull GC104 worked just fine for me. The foliage was recorded on Fuji Velvia 100. I am getting old and appreciate anything that is light and portable.<br>

Incidentally, I happened to take a few pictures of the covered bridge in Jackson using the DSLR. I want to re take the pictures using the TLR. In B&W, of course.<br>

Be well and happy shooting.</p>

<p>the seagull 109 is a very well built camera with a 4 element multicoated sharp lens and gives excellent results, i paid £229 including the leather case and postage from kauser international in the uk, this is my second seagull and have been using them for 13 years, i have sold my first one on to a friend now and he is happy with it too!</p>

<p>i missed the camera so much i bought a new 4a-109, even better than the older 4a-103 i sold, good old china!!! improving quality and still continuing to make this tlr for over 40 years, please make a wideangle 50mm seagull!!!!!</p>