Open Letter to Mate Raters

Have some self respect. What you are doing is so bloody obvious - do

you have no shame?

 

The amount of frustration on the site is growing day by day as your

blatant recruitment campaigns are plastered all over the front pages

of the TRP.

 

Many photographers post their work here in the hope that others will

see it and perhaps comment or even rate (honestly) on their work.

Unfortunately they are being denied access to this feedback, both

written and numerical, by your desperation to have your work at the

top of the tree.

 

The worst thing of all is that you think you are doing

your "friends" a favour, when in fact you do them a disservice by

offering a falsely inflated opinion of their work. What do they gain

from this other than their fifteen minutes of fame?

 

Time after time we see your average images with the same mundane

comments plastered below them ("nice, "nice colours", "WOW" etc).And

why, I wonder, do you have to tell them you gave them a 7/7?

 

I think the worst of all of you have to be the positive

discriminators, rating only your fellow countrymen high and everyone

else low so that your nation dominates the front page (you know who

you are, and we all know which country you represent).

 

When a picture is obviously overexposed or out of focus or could be

composed better, tell them! Don't contradict and dismiss those that

dare to offer an honest appraisal by saying you prefer out of focus

overexposed photos.

 

If you feel you cannot change and do any of the above - don't submit

your photo's for critique or ratings at all - after all, they're all

PERFECT!

Well said Mark. You make some very poignant observations & I have to agree with most. I don't really agree on the nationality issue though. But,I may be missing something.

The ratings don't mean as much to me as comments. But to see a mediocre shot, at best, get rave revues while a very nicely done and presented shot sits there gathering dust is ludicrous

the starter of this thread appears to practice what he preaches. and I especially think that his statement... "Don't contradict and dismiss those that dare to offer an honest appraisal..."... should apply especially to many so-called "honest" critiquers who seem to go out of their way to contradict or demean the honestly given critiques provided by others who critique their own friends' photos. they know they you are. that practice only sends mixed messages, that while they support honest critique they take exception to it when it's applied to their friends or to photos they especially like.

it is only the internet and not everyone plays nice - I would put the energy toward constructing more careful criticism of your own work which surely you take the trouble to make a better photograph rather than making a better photograph to post on PN

 

on the other hand, I have let my blood boil from time to time, but then how does that make me a better photographer

Wah wah wah, cry me a river. Get a life Mark. It's good to see you are that bored with life that this is eating you alive. Don't worry there are many fellow town criers who will make you fell better and moan with you.

I give Mark credit for walking the walk. but should a "town bully" take credit for appropriating the term "town crier"? see <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00AuXd" >this</a>. :-)))

I find your post truthful yet a bit redundant. Not one actual mate rater is going to read it and suddenly see the light. Of course i checked your highest rated and must comment you have very fine taste and objectivity. Complete honesty it seems with every image i saw in your port submitted for RFC.

 

They are also highly underated. Highly. There could really not be a better testament to the fact the system is very broken than to analize your port results... Whatever the reason, mindless bots, people pressing 4/4 all day long, the ape experiment in South Africa... the end result is a severe imbalance that could only be repaired by drastic changes to the RFC or simple manditory submission for every image posted to create equality for all.

 

The same image can be submitted 3 times in one day and produce results differing by over 2 full points on 10 rates. Its like a lottery.

 

Your point about broadscast of the 7/7, i actually posted reasons that should be outlawed but have changed that view. An image just entered the TRP with 3 7/7's that was far from 7/7 so critqued it. Gave solid reasons why it was a 4/4 and said so. If anybody respects my opinion as a photographer and they are clueless to form their own opinion, well it serves as a guildline. This is after all a learning site here and for some the fact a pic sits on page 1 alone is enough for them to "presume" its a top image.

 

Its clear your intention of objecting to this, but then again. If a long list of people are using one liners and 7/7!!!...then this is layed down after all this. The next guy comes along and may say... ya those are very solid reasons. And check out alltheir names that said it was 7/7..thoses guys really must not have a clue at all. So it now works as an embarresment to poor taste on their part.

 

This does however extract its toll in vengence rating. Theres a guy who mates a slew of images everynite with about 8 7/7's right out of the box onto page 1. I'm up all nite so as they come in, try to bring some reality to the situation as outlined. He hates my guts and comes in and lays 2/2 3/3 on some pretty nice pics in the port. Abuse will do nothing about it. In my view this guy has nothing to do with photography as "art" or any interest whatsoever in helping anybody on this site. He has never offered a single line of help to any members here and serves only himself. Doing a search its no surprize to see that he is doing the same deal on at least 12 sites on the net i found so far. Can only presume the motivation is commercial. And to top all that off he's not even a contributer...I'm just gonna continue bringing him down to earth until PN gets wise or he sees the light.

 

When only one person fights out loud their bound to take a beating. When 10 do it, it becomes much harder for these people to to reap their vengence. The members here on PN ARE the police force when it comes to something so objective as an opinion of an image. It really seems these members are currently eating donuts and drinking coffee while the mafia is busy robbing the bank.

 

And Howard.. i can see you busily typing away to defame the above opinion and let me state. Its pretty rare i get a shot up there and can take any kind of objective critque... cause i sure dish out my share to others. BUT simply commenting on an image and implying it "suks" and is the result of stuffing the ballot box and not giving any valid reasons about the image itself... or even mentioning the image for that matter.. is nothing more that pure defamation... that is the reason i requested you delete your comments. Accusing a person of being a mate rater because they put a title on a picture is not a very rational argument in my view... and abuse thought that also.

Jerry,

Why are you moaning about my moaning. If you don't like moaning, don't moan.

"...<i>I'm just gonna continue bringing him down to earth until PN gets wise or he sees the light.</i>"

 

<p>otherwise I have no problem with your approach. mine is similar but has more to do with critiquing off the forums, and with no one in particular as friend or not.

<p>but be honest, if one of the mate-raters you detest had uploaded that type of inanely manipulated pic of yours to high ratings you'd have been all over it with criticism, no? I know that if I had uploaded a pic like that and got embarrassingly high rates for it, I would have deleted it fast to get rid of the ratings stink.

Mark, you really are preaching to the choir here. The scoundrels on the TRP that you refer to will never see this. <p>

I have, however, an idea that would solve the problem. A new feature should be incorporated into the RFC that would give <b>non-subscribers</b> the option, via a click box, to generate 10 to 20 laudatory comments in various random languages and simultaneously apply an overly sufficient number of high ratings to immediately propel the posted photograph to the very top of the TRP. In addition, <b>for subscribers</b> wishing to view the TRP, the first two pages would be invisible. This system would increase the efficiency for not only the mate-raters suffering from pixel envy who usurp the TRP, but also for those members who would like to view more substantive photography. Everyone wins! Now, did I miss my calling or not? Regards.

Uhh, better make that: "...the first three pages would be invisible...". Regards.

Walter, I think you may be on to something ;-)

 

I've just had a look at the top page and it saddens me to say that with perhaps one or two exceptions the standard is appalling. Is this really the best photo.net has to offer?

 

A very sad period in the evolution of the gallery on photo.net.

With respect to all those that support the complaints against mate rating dominating the TRP, very few, if any of you actually do anything about it.

 

My comments on their pictures, and I don't restrict my comments and advice to the mate raters, often look out of place amongst the ooh's and aah's. If enough of us rated often enough it may have some impact on the quality of the TRP. As I stressed above, I always rate honestly and, if one of the perpetrators produces a quality picture, then my rating reflects that.

 

There's a portrait that appeared yesterday that's out of focus and poorly executed and I'm the only one amongst a whole list of comments that doesn't seem to be wetting my pants over it. Why are these people so willing to draw such obvious attention to themselves? The answer is simple - nothing, but nothing, is being done about it.

Hang on a minute...

 

Just looked over some of my recent comments and it would appear that some others are beginning to comment honestly. Come, friends, don't be afraid.

 

Viva la revolution!

I'm with you, Mark.

<p>

"If enough of us rated often enough it may have some impact on the quality of the TRP."

<p>

I used to think that way too, and then got bored and rate less and less nowadays... Life's too short to save PN - which is made difficult precisely by the fact that nothing is being done about all this.

<p>

I have already suggested a couple of times recently to have a way similar to the "rate recent" line-up, applied this time to the TRP: a way that would allow each and every one of us to rate in-line all TRP pictures from page 1 to page X.

<p>

Otherwise, the rating process is too slow and too boring: people get fed up playing Zorro after a while...:-)

Marc,

 

We've spoken in the past about bogus accounts and mate rating and I understand your frustrations, but the fact is your'e still here: so there must be something worth fighting for.

 

In fact, all of you that have given up hope, is it not worth one more try? I kind of feel alone on this and the beginner looking to learn something from reading comments on the TRP may think I'm just a miserable old git who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

Mark - I agree with you. As a definitively amateur photographer, what I'd really appreciate is helpful commentary on the shots I submit. But one effect of the "unobjective" rating is to make this more difficult. When I submit images which are favorably received and rate well (which is as rare as it is gratifying) they seldom get any useful criticism, but instead the standard "nice shot!", as much as anything, I think, because this lack of criticism is becoming the norm, and because many people have become apprehensive about being critical of an image that is scoring well. But, really (and this is not false modesty), those shots each still have plenty of room for improvement, and plenty of scope for others to tell me either what they found appealing, or what they would have avoided or done differently.

 

Instead, I've found myself spending more time trying to find other people's shots that teach me something about how I can improve, or that encourage me to try different approaches. But the prevalence of uncritical ratings means that the TRP pages just aren't a great place to go through this exercise. Yes, there are plenty of great images on PN, but finding them usually means following threads or looking at the higher rated shots of photographers whose styles and images I personally respect. And that requires an investment of time that most of us don't necessarily have.

 

So, what does PN do for me? I get to see some great work from other photographers ... but increasingly I have to look harder for it. In the absence of constructive criticism, I'm finding there's really not a lot of point to my posting my own images - there's not much appeal to having a bunch of strangers share my photographic experiences if their reaction is simply limited to a numeric response or a meaningless pat on the back - all I learn is whether the random sample of viewers who happen to be surfing when I post like, dislike or are unmoved by what I submit.

 

For my own part, I do try to comment contructively - but I'm finding myself less enthusiastic about committing the time when what I'm hoping for as payback gets to be this thin. So, yes, I think that we all need to become more candid about areas for improvement in each other's shots, because without that we're going to lose photographers who value objectivity, and without objectivity, PN isn't helping us improve the quality of the shots we take ... or that PN gets to host.

Jeremy phrased perfectly what the problem really is. Sad...

<p>

Mark, I know you feel alone in this: that's because you are indeed almost alone. So was the old "balance brigade"...:-) We'd need a couple more souls to restart something like that (where are Doug Burgess, Bob Hixon, Scott Bulger, and all the ETC...?)

<p>

Anyway, the world keeps turning and PN's management doesn't seem to be very interested in such "criticism", so in the end, why would we be...?

Balance Brigade lowball rating is just as dishonest as mate-rating. That is not the solution. Since I know well what happened back then, I can tell you that going through a selected few individuals entire folder and ratinge everything lower than honest is not going to solve anything.

 

"Anyway, the world keeps turning and PN's management doesn't seem to be very interested in such "criticism", so in the end, why would we be...?"

 

I agree. The solution here rests in managements lap. Why they stand by watching is beyond my understanding. There is a problem, it will get worse.

 

I do remember one solution Photo.net used in the past. In the most obvious/flagrant cases, you could do the same as was done with A.P. Her ratings were disabled entirely along with a little note why. She could still post images, but no longer receive the ratings needed for thye TRP. Some of these people are posting multiple times within three days now. Perhaps giving them a warning threatening the same that was done to her.

 

Or maybe Brian can figure out something even better. Anything should be better than nothing.

Just took a few minutes to solve most PN probs on the way out.

 

Everybody is racing to the front. Four lane highway and a dead end. So keep the entire rate thing the same but get rid of the order.

 

Every morning shuffle the deck and deal the pics out into random spots. There is still highest rated etc. and no changes.

 

This way every person here gets the same chance at exposure fairly. Many who remain obscure get a shot. Totally wipes out the incentive. If the egos couldnt stand that then a simple mini strip of thumbs along the top for best 5 or so.

 

I am serious...yes. Think about it.

Its all about visibility. A possible solution could be to divide the TRP into 2 sections, a kind of "champagne and ballons" section, for thoose who like the rating game(many of us have, on our early days at PN)with the short "nice" comments and a friendly tone, very appealing to many.. no doubt. The other section would be for serious critiques. But the ratings stays the same, this also mean that along with the critique forum, for serious inputs, there would be a similar one, a exibition room for thoose who prefer the rating game. This might solve some problems... perhaps worth a try.

<p>"<I>a very sad period in the evolution of the gallery on photo.net.</I>"<p>on the contrary. the sooner it worsens to the point of univeral embarrassment the sooner we will see change. I'm content to simply let the TRP fish head rot (while holding my nose) until, per force, action gets taken.

Why not go right into the photos on the TRP that don't belong in their elevated positions and give an honest critique. Just pick out some photos that are all gushed over with "Beautiful" "I love the colors" etc and inflated rates and tell the photog the truth about their photo and the flattery being heaped upon them. And point out right on their photograph the mutual self-serving back slapping for mediocre photographs that you see going on. People who solicit inflated rates by giving inflated rates don't want that kind of truthful criticism on their photos. Tell the truth and name the names. The truth will be uncomfortable for them to stand.

Tried that for a while, it doesn't work...

Marc, when somebody is preaching to others, I think he has to stand on the first row of what he is preaching for.Looking at your highest rated photos, many of them has only numbers, no comment no explanation why, let allon your low rates that I'm "honored" to get and not for the first time. It is your privilege , BUT never have I recieved a comment explaining why, (and you are not the only one, There is a group that is doing it constantly most of them anonymously, rating good works low or bad works high and not brave enough to add an explanation.)

 

So , Before preaching to others....Pnina