OK, who'd pay more than the cost of an M7 for a 6MP Digital Bessa R2?

I have to believe that this is the next big thing coming out of

Cosina/Voigtlander. I also expect Konica to do something similar,

and maybe even Minolta. I wouldn't even be surprised if one of these

got OEM'd by Leitz themselves. All 3 of these companies have the

complete set of expertise to do this. SOMEBODY has got to be the

first one to put a competitive pro-class digital body behind the

Leitz M-mount glass. Which company will be first?

 

I certainly would jump at the chance to buy such an item, even moreso

than for a Nikon D100.

If that camera were to be introduced in 2003, I would pass. It would be too expensive and questionable.

 

However, if the introduction date were 2006 and I were still breathing, I would buy it in a heartbeat!

Uh, I would get the canon D60 camera to stick Leica R glass in front of it :)

How much more? =8^o

 

Only 6 MP? State-of the art is already bouncing off 14MP.

 

Full-frame chip? Or D100-style small-central area chip? If the first, we have to wait for a new chip architecture to avoid bad vignetting in the corners (or stick to 50/75/90/135 lenses). If the second, the framelines need modification to reflect the change in effective focal length (e.g. a 35 will frame like a 50).

 

But - I agree that C/V or somebody beside Leica is likely to do it first. They'll produce something that works pretty well while Leica is still waiting for 'perfect'.

 

And - yes - I'd pay a premium over an equivalent SLR-type ditcam in order to use my existing lens lineup and have a big, bright optical viewfinder instead of a ground-glass and mirror-shake.

 

I could even live with less-than-full-frame so long as the framelines are corrected. Most of my lenses run in 1.5x ratio to the existing frames/finders anyway: 15/24, 24/35, 35/50, 50/75, 90/135.

While I suspect many of us would love to have a "pro-class digital" option to put behind our Leica M glass, the technical challenges are more formidable than might be apparent on the surface. Ideal digital lenses are designed for that media, rather than the other way around.

 

Additionally, "pro-class digital" currently has a fuzzy definition. For example, I wouldn't consider the Nikon D100 to fit my definition of that term. Both the D100 and its competing models (Canon D60 and Fuji S2) lack the degree of white-balance control needed for real professional work. So, a "pro-class digital" is more likely to be in the US$5K range, like the Nikon D1X. Plus, six megapixel technology only covers part of the spectrum of pro requirements.

 

To really compete at the pro level with a digital, a much broader range of lenses and accessories would be necessary, so the pro could use the system on nearly all assignments for which digital would be an appropriate solution. The array of M lenses falls short in that regard, and it's not clear that the magic of Leica glass would translate directly to digital media. Existing market share also fits into that equation, and Nikon and Canon already have the lion's share of the pro 35mm market.

 

Thus, it seems unlikely (to me, at least) that any of the M-compatible manufacturers will come up with an M-based digital solution. I'd be pleased to be wrong, however.

I'd happily pay. Even for a camera that was less than full frame and 6mp. <b>happily</b>

That our expensive Leica M lenses may soon be "obsolete" as far as the direction digital imaging is going is disconcerting. I don't see anyone coming out with a viable digital M body however,(for many of the reasons that have been discussed in this forum) and will be very surpised to see one from Cosina who doesn't even make a digital camera as far as I know.

Is it feasible that current and older leica-M glass CAN be used on a digital M-body if one were to materlise??

Sorry, I didn't catch Ralph's commentary before I posted. I'll shut up.

Mr Kobayashi (sp?) has emphatically said that Cosina will NOT, NOT be introducing any digital products. NOT now, NOT ever. And the current technological hurdles associated with ensuring parallelism in the light rays to satisfy sensor demands precludes full utilizatin of the M lens' capabilities. Maybe sensor technology will improve over the next few years, but right now, it doesn't work.

 

Face it, you won't see the M lenses on a production digital body in the near future, if ever.

Well I agree with Ralph that there is a range of product performance that encompasses a "Pro-class" digital SLR. But I think that there are a couple of price points whereby this type of thing could fall out.

 

There's the basic, D-100 class 6MP body that has more "Pro-sumer" type features, and there's the $5-10K True Pro, perhaps 14 MP camera. I believe that there is a market for both of these, but that the Japanese companies I originally mentioned, and I should probably have also included Fuji in the list, would be most likely to go after that $2K Pro-sumer space first. It's also possible that some firm like Konica or Minolta might deliver the $2K Pro-sumer product under their own brand, while OEM-ing the more costly true Pro-class Model to Leitz.

 

As for me, I'd be looking to buy the $2K pro-sumer class digicam.

As the rangefinder market is already tiny, why would a company want to divide it even further?

Skip, Didn't Kobayashi-san also emphatically state that C/V wouldn't produce an M-bayonet mount camera before they delivered the Bessa-T and Bessa R2?

 

That's what's known in the trade as avoiding the Osborne effect: i.e. making sure that you don't obsolete your currently selling products before you have their replacement product ready to sell in it's stead. (Named after the Osborne PC company, who prematurely announced the Osborne 2 portable PC, and then went bankrupt because everyone stopped buying the more costly and less capable Osborne 1, while awaiting it's more value-priced successor).

Albert, Where can I get the 12mm and 15mm C/V lenses in Leica R mount, to put in front of My Canon D-60? There's a REASON that the m-mount is better than the R-mount glass for extreme wide angles.

Call me old fashioned but I like my 35mm camera for now.

<i>Didn't Kobayashi-san also emphatically state that C/V wouldn't produce an M-bayonet mount camera before they delivered the Bessa-T and Bessa R2?</i><p><p>

 

I don't think he was emphatic. I seem to remember that he said that there were no plans to produce an M-mount camera. But you may be right. OTOH, Cosina doesn't have digital expertise and the investment to produce such a product would require either lots of cash or a partnership for a VERY small market.<p><p>

 

<i> Where can I get the 12mm and 15mm C/V lenses in Leica R mount, to put in front of My Canon D-60? There's a REASON that the m-mount is better than the R- mount glass for extreme wide angles.</i><p><p>

 

You can't get an R or Canon mount for the CV lenses, but you CAN get the 12mm and 15mm in a Nikon F mount. They would fit on a Nikon D body if the mirror can be locked up and there is sufficient clearance. I don't know the bodies well enough to know if it's possible.<p>

"I have to believe that this is the next big thing coming out of Cosina/Voigtlander."

 

You have to believe wrong, then. When asked last month about and digital Besss he (as reported recently on Topica's RF or Voigtlander list) said "never."

Yeah, I'm really waiting for a digital 'M' body. After spending all that money on lenses, and enjoying the quality, all I need is a 6MP recording medium to make them look like the ends of coke bottles.

BTW,

 

If Cosina NEVER produces a digital camera, then they will be out of the camera business in 10 years. BTW, that is true for EVERY camera company in the world. If Cosina doesn't build digital cameras, then they will be back to only doing contract manufacturing of other people's designs, and building cheap off-brand lenses. Not a promising future for their stockholders. There WILL be an ongoing market for film cameras, but it will be declining in terms of unit voluem, and it will be characterized by the need to leverage the same R&D that goes into the digital business on the lens and accessory front. That is an obvious fact of life in the photographic industry. It is true that Cosina would likely need to partner with someone else to build the digital electronics that would go into such a camera. That's one reason that I think Konica or Minolta might beat them to it. But there are certainly those potential partners out there, such as Foveon, who would immensely benefit from the prestige of having their sensor reference design inside the first digital camera to use Leica M-mount lenses.

 

And, BTW, I don't actually believe that the potential market is all that small, if a RF body that used M-mount lenses was priced in the same ballpark as an AF-SLR body having similar digital performance specs. We have not seen such a scenario before with respect to Rangefinders.

"Cosina doesn't have digital expertise..."

 

Neither does Leica - they buy it in from Panasonic (previously from Fuji)

 

Nor did Nikon/Canon 12 years ago - they bought it in from Kodak/AP-Leaf/Fuji (at various times).

 

just a thought...

"If Cosina NEVER produces a digital camera, then they will be out of the camera

business in 10 years."

 

The company's answer was in response to a question about bodies for the company's small Voigtlander division's rangefinders. No one claimed that the much larger Cosina Co. would not make digital cameras of some kind in the future.

 

"that is true for EVERY camera company in the world."

 

I'm sure that will be news to the dozen or so large format manufacturers around. Like Voigtlander, they too are selling a specialty product for a specialty market.

 

"I don't actually believe that the potential market is all that small,

if a RF body that used M-mount lenses was priced in the same ballpark as an

AF-SLR body having similar digital performance specs."

 

An M-mount digicam (or back) may come out somewhere, from some company, but that wasn't the subject of this thread. The President of Cosina was reported to say "never" in response to the idea of a CV digicam, which won't stop speculations or word-parsing ('Oh it'll be a COSINA-branded M-mount digicam!').

Two things will influence whether there will be a digital body with a Leica RF (LTM or M) mount made by Cosina, Konica or some other Japanese company:

 

1. Demand for it, particularly in the Japanese home market. If there is sufficient demand among fervent Leica collector/users for a body capable of allowing these individuals to keep using their Leica lenses, you can be sure that such a body will be made by someone, just as the Bessas and Hexar RF came to fruition originally to meet Japanese home-market demand.

 

2. If Leica's controlling body recognizes before it's too late that a digital M is the only way the company will survive more than 5 years out, and they themselves commisions Panasonic to develop a digital body for the M lenses.

 

All the "reasons" why a digital M is not feasible is as much a pile of hogwash as the reasons why a full-frame 35mm digital chip was also "not feasible" and why for umpteen years an M body with autoexposure was "not feasible". Anytime you say something is "not feasible" these days, you should always add "yet".

Actually Bailey, The likelihood of SOME Japanese manufacturer building an M-mount digicam WAS EXACTLY the subject of this thread, and was precisely the discussion I was looking to enter when I started the thread. I was using the term "Digital Bessa R2" as shorthand for ANY non-Leitz-manufactured Digital M-mount rangefinder body.

 

It very well might NOT be Cosina/Voigtlander first. But it will be someone, and I will buy one if it's features are competitive with similarly priced Digital SLR bodies for the Nikon mount. I conjectured that Cosina/Voigtlander would do it because, from a business perspective, they have the most to lose by NOT doing it. But it would not surprise me in the slightest if Konica or Minolta did it first, because they are NOT players in the Digital 35mm-compatible SLR space, and they need a differentiated play to get into the SERIOUS photography market with a digital solution that some segment of the market might actually favor over Nikon or Canon's products, and they each already have the Leica M-Mount expertise to enable that.

"I was using the term "Digital Bessa R2" as shorthand for ANYon-Leitz-manufactured Digital M-mount rangefinder body. "

 

I accept your apology. <grin>

 

Actually, you SPECIFICALLY referred to CV when you said, "I have to believe that this is the next big thing coming out of Cosina/Voigtlander," and that is what I initially replied to.

 

I also later agreed that it is possible for some company, at some time, to come out with an M-mount digicam. But it most likely will not be Voigtlander. Conjecture away.

"All the "reasons" why a digital M is not feasible is as much a pile of hogwash as the reasons why a full-frame 35mm digital chip was also "not feasible" and why for umpteen years an M body with autoexposure was "not feasible". Anytime you say something is "not feasible" these days, you should always add "yet"."

 

Preach it!

 

It is funny all the impossible things that have happenned in the last few years. Now that Kodak and Canon have announced full-frame digital sensors the "not feasible" crowd are still saying they wouldn't work. They are claiming that wide-angle lens are problematic. These people will never learn.

 

The only thing that may be impossible is a $500 digital back for my Hassy. (I hope someday to eat my words, though I doubt it.)