NO FLASH GYMNASTIC SHOOT

<p>I have a shoot that is * NO FLASH * In a tennis court bubble, to my eyes thought the lighting was bright enough, but my cam and lense thought the opposite. Shooting with a Tamron 2.8 17-35mm and coming out dark. Now the test shot was of someone playing tennis at about 40-50ft away. In order to stop action but yet let in enough light is my problem. Shooting 800 ISO and changing constantly the settings. My next step is this 50mm 1.8. I do not have time to edit either, selling cd's on the spot. Any and all advise would be helpful.</p>

<p>Kenneth -</p>

<p>What body are you using? </p>

<p>Depending on that - I'd suggest going to 1600 or higher in the ISO.</p>

<p>Also - I'd shoot manual instead of any of the auto modes... Do some test exposures on Manual (everything) then set at the one that looks the best. My guess is that the camera is trying to expose for multiple contrasting items and is having some issues.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Dave, I only shoot manual, I have a d80 and a d60, center metering, not feeling 1600, way too much noise, now if I had time to noise ninja, then probably but I don't</p>

<p>So, I'm assuming you know this, but the images coming out dark have nothing to do with the fact that there is or isn't enough light. Are you shooting in shutter priority? Then I would understand it, as I'd expect the camera to bottom out once the max aperture was reached. I would tend to shoot this (as I do with everything) using aperture control along with auto ISO set at whatever minimum shutter speed you were comfortable with. For that lens I'd think you could get away with something in the 1/60 range if you were willing to avoid (or incorporate motion blur) rapid movements, higher otherwise. Alternatively, assuming you can do this quick enough, is to combine auto ISO with manual mode, and adjust shutter speed yourself from shot to shot. I've done both with my D300 in a gym at basketball games (and night football games) shooting my daughter's cheerleading with a 70-200 lens.</p>

<p>I tried all settings, shutter priority did not open my aperture enough in turned dark again. Joel, for what lense were you referring to? the 2.8 or the 50mm 1.8? Should I do anything with distance, haven't tried that yet. My test shots were of someone playing tennis about 40-50 ft away, but I will be 10 ft away doing this event. I am really worried that I will not be able to produce a good product.</p>

<p>I mirror what others have said above.<br>

Aperature priority, max it out at 2.8, ISO 2500+, and good luck!<br>

Some of these gyms have worse lighting than a cave.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>this is a tennis court bubble tint very high ceiling with lights hanging down 7 ft and shooting to the ceiling, so it is alot out bounce to fight as well. I will definitely try, remembering that I did try that and the lighting was better but not enough shutter to prevent blur....</p>

<p>Ken - sounds you may have jumped in over your head, but still swimming along!<br>

Try to get the exposure right with a correct ISO. You should see lesss noise than brightening up an under exposed image.<br>

Option - rent a D300 or D700 to get even better low noise at higher ISO<br>

At 10 ' away from gymnasts is pretty damn close. Too close if I was performing. Should be using something longer, ie. 85 1.8, 70-200 f2.8, 100 f2, 135 f2. Of course when you get into the 100mm range you need the room to get back and shoot without people walking in your line of sight.<br>

Might rent a lens with a camera body as well. I just used borrowlenses.com in calif. - good company, but not only one.<br>

Are a few events going on at same time throughout the day? that's nearly impossible to cover by yourself. Perhaps you're covering one team as they go through the different routines. That's what I just did at local HS meet and so it's pretty easy. During down times I would look around for others to shoot. Practive 'helps' make perfect! I shhot with a D300 and D300S, using a 70-200 and 17-55. Shooting all manual, iso 2500 or 3200, high burst, 2.8 or 3.2 aperture, auto WB, and 1/400.</p>

<p>Good luck and Good shootin"!</p>

<p>I don't have any experience shooting inside a tennis bubble but I do have a lot of experience shooting indoor basketball in many different school gyms with terrible lighting. I shoot way too many bad pictures as I learned how to shoot indoor sports and even though I have a long way to go, I am able to get half decent shots on a consistent basis. Here is what I do:</p>

<p>1. Manually set the white balance for every gym. This is a must. I have a grey card for doing this.</p>

<p>2. Shutter speed must be at least 1/500 to avoid blur. 1/640 is better. If the players are not moving (or moving very slowly), bumping down the shutter speed for those specific shots would be a big help</p>

<p>3. Open up the ISO as much as possible (my D90 can go to 3200 with half-decent results). This does not sound an option based on your responses.</p>

<p>4. The challenge is to open up the aperture as much as possible. I shoot in shutter priority mode so that the camera can set the aperture<br>

If none of this works, maybe you can post the picture and make sure that the exif data is included. This would be a big help in providing feedback.<br>

If you're getting dark pictures, quite simply, not enough light is getting in. If none of this works, then your only option may be a faster lens or a camera that can handle low light better.<br>

BTW - I'm shooting with a D90 with a Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 lens.</p>

 

<p>this is a major qualifying event, all other declined the job. Not me to decline a job. This event is trampolines and double MINI with a tumbling track. My helper has a 300 so I will let him shoot the main event which will be the tramp, I will take the lease, and hurry and try to do some editing before putting on a disc. Steve I can get the right exposure with light but only still subject. any movements, blur.... and yes swimming is my thing, and I plan on not drowning...LOL. Also there will be catchers even closer , so my 10' shouldn't be that back, maybe I will drop to 15-20, and may have to with the 50mm 1.8</p>

<p>Kenneth -</p>

<p>D80 is definitely not the way to go for low noise at higher ISO's. </p>

<p>Given the poor lighting - I think you have 3 choices -</p>

<p>1. Get the 50 mm F1.4 or F1.8 - either of which will / should do fine.</p>

<p>2. Get / rent a D300s / D300 or even a D3 for the event. D300 will go up to 2000 ISO without Noiseware assuming a proper exposure.</p>

<p>3. up your iso on the D80 and insert a quick trip through PS to your workflow to run Noiseware on the images....</p>

<p>Given the limits of the D80 - there isn't much more to do... you're constrained by the camera, lens, action (wanting to stop it), lighting and turnaround on the images...</p>

<p>Depending on the appartus and ambient noise 10 feet may or may not be too close. I know from past experience that some gymnasts don't want anything or any one in their direct field of vision. </p>

<p>Dave</p>

<p>yeah my d80 is not good with high ISO, and really don't have time to run noiseware. I am not getting paid by the committee, just the parents that would like to buy afterwards. I do plan on editing and posting online as well. I should just get a d700 and be done with it. But for now I will try the 50mm. 1.8/1.4. This lense have the little orange switch for 1.4 but my camera is not reading it. Is there anything I need to do to populate this 1.4 option?</p>

<p>If upgrading cameras is a possibility, then go ahead and do that, too. One way or another, you have to get to at least ISO 1600, if not ISO 3200. Considering that this is a "churn and burn" CD-selling venture, the requirement for crystal-clear professional photos is somewhat less. You should easily get away with ISO 1600 on your D80 (not the best quality, but should suffice). The most important thing will be to get your shutter speeds high enough. Use the fastest glass you can get (that 50 f/1.8 at the least) and shoot at ISO 1600. Underexpose by one stop if you must, and push process to ISO 3200 if that's what it takes. I don't see any possible way to shoot fast action like this in low light without flash and stay below ISO 800.</p>

<p>Run your photos through a Photoshop action (this is automatic, and doesn't require much extra time on your part) which applies a noise reduction and reduces image size to 50%. The images at a smaller size (say, 3MP) will exhibit less evidence of the flaws. If you have time to burn CD's, then you can't pretend that you don't have time to run a PS action, especially if you have an assistant.</p>

<p>You don't want to use any automatic metering mode. </p>

<p>Sports areas have even lighting (or they wouldn't be suitable for sports). All automatic metering will do is underexpose when a white shirt fills the frame or use a shutter speed that's too long when a white shirt doesn't fill the frame. Either way, find the right exposure and stick to it. Automatic metering is only any use when the light falling on the subject varies from frame to frame. </p>

<p>alec is right. set shutter and aperture manually. adjust the ISO to get good exposure.<br>

All should listen - if the light is essentially at a constant intensity, use manual settings, period.<br>

Ken - I think you should go and rent what you need to get this swimmingly right!</p>

<p>hmmm...not aware of the switch on the 50mm - I have 50mm 1.8 will have to see if mine has that switch on it.... Not sure if you have the Nikon 50mm f1.4 why the D80 would not recognize it.</p>

<p>If you're doing prints / sales to parents - then you definitely have time to get the photos "right" before releasing to the parents. Do parents like to have things they paid for "in hand" before they leave the event? Absolutely...but guess what... They will still buy and pay for product to be shipped to them if the value add is there. Most realize that photos are t-shirts and that there needs to be some work done on them. Now if you had an assistant that could run computers and do PS work for you - that would be a bonus.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>you guys are the greatest. I took the nikon 50mm 1.8/1.4 there tonight to test and was happy with the results. Even shot with ISO of 640 and looking nice. May still find a 85mm 1.8, did like the distance of the 50mm. Alec, what is automatic metering modes? yeah David, its a nikon, and has an orange switch for 1.4, and I have an assistant but they are not fast as I. I will take the lesser busy event then run a edit. It will be over 453 competitors for all over the us and just trying to group there child's pics from 7 different sessions over two days will be a headache of its own. Do any one know of a good qty to give on a disc for maybe 30.00?</p>

<p>Kenneth -</p>

<p>I currently charge Teams (complete team photos) $100.00 for all the images I can find / get of that team.</p>

<p>Parents who want the images on CD pay $9.00 per image.</p>

<p>So - doing the math, I'd do 4 images per cd for a parent and $30.00.... </p>

<p>If that's all you're selling then I'd suggest maybe 6 or 10 images - but then you've got the grouping / id challenge.</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

<p>Yes David, I know that will be the big challenge, and this weekend is coming fast....</p>

<p>Does the organization running this meet get anything from you - except your prescence there to shoot. for a meet this big I can't imagine not having photogs in the budget!<br>

Make sure that they don not assume that they have any rights to the images you take.<br>

Maybe you will be able to sell some images to a gymnastics magazine or perhaps the sponsors. Contact them - get business cards while you are there. Have your own cards to hand out.<br>

What does your assistant have for a lens on the d300. Is he a sports shooter of sorts?<br>

Good shootin'</p>

 

<p>He has access to a 70-200mm 2.8, and all other photographers declined the job so the usual 15% is being canceled. No they don't have rights to my pictures and I should see if I can sell them. Do I have to discuss this with them at all? Thanks Steve.</p>

<p>Kenneth -</p>

<p>So if I reading this properly - they tried to find someone to do this gig and all other photographers they talked to are either a)booked or b) not willing to take this on.... hmmmm....</p>

<p>So they are waiving the 15% of sales that they would normally get from a photographer - to try to get someone in there... (again - stop me if I've got that wrong)</p>

<p>Sounds like some red (or at least yellow) flags to me... why did others turn them down? be interesting to find out. I know I've done two gigs where the sponsor "tried but couldn't find a photographer" one worked great - and I'm doing more work for them and the other was a bust. Ended up losing my butt...</p>

<p>My standard is to provide some (not all) images to the organization for them to use - plus the percentage of sales. Others do it differently. </p>

<p>As for sales to other than the event organizers - most magazines / stock agencies will require a signed model release before they will touch your photos. Especially since there are children under the age of 18 involved...Then you also need the parents to sign. Some events have a release form right on their entry packet. Others have a separate release and still others have no release.</p>

<p>Talk to the organizer and find out what they have - if anything. If they have nothing - print out a release form - ask (don't demand) the organizer if you can get it signed by people as they buy / pick up their photos.</p>

<p>Equipment wise - I'd use the 70-200 F2.8 personally... I don't think the manual zoom on the 50mm will cut it...but then again - I love the 70-200<br>

Dave</p>

 

<p>Dave you are correct about the 15%, my 2.8 didn't do anything in there, later found out that the 17-55mm 2.8, technologies wasn't that good. but my 50mm 1.8 did great and it is not manual focus, it is truly automatic. Don't know why no one wanted the job, but so far no red or yellow tape. I am new in the field and just haven't gotten everything about forms really done yet, it is in the making however. I am just trying to set up my studio right now. Looked at the price of that 70-200mm 2.8, whewwwwww that will be a minute, rather go with the d700 if I had the doe.</p>

<p>I hear that you are just starting out and looking for the most affordable options. I started out with your same mind set. I started with a D200, a very nice start. Then I took what most people would call a step down. Some of my photographer friends laughed at me. That thought I was shooting a toy. I bought the D90 for $865. It was not a professional camera although it produced images that were right along side the D300 images. The ISO reaches were unreal. I bought the cheaper camera and went with the nice glass. I bought the 70-200 VR 2.8. From then on my images were outstanding. I made around $16,000 in sales with that camera in a year then sold it for $800 on Craigs list. I upgraded to the D700, and added a 24-70 2.8 to my camera bag. I also bought a 50 1.4. Those are my lenses that I use for everything. I would like to have a prime 85 1.4 but am still trying to recoup from the massive hemorrhage on the D700 and the new lens. I sometimes wonder if I should have just stayed with my D90. The images difference are not that noticeable especially in sports shots. I kinda miss the video feature in the D90. When the D700 comes out with the video option I will purchase it and have my old D700 as my second body. <br>

As far as shooting inside. It is so darn hard when there is a lot of action. Crank the ISO expect noisy images, run a noise reduction, you can afford not to. I use Define from NiK. Try not to just sell low quality images. I think it cheapens then entire industry. We are professionals we are expected to produce a quality image. Sometimes the customers don't know the difference, but over time your reputation, brand and the industry as a whole will be tarnished. Better to take you time and produce quality than to can up some low quality junk that the customer is going to be irritated with when they go to print and they get all that noise. Please don't hammer me for my opinion. I just think we should have a certain amount of professionalism. <br>

Lastly, Next time you take on a job that might be a little out of your realm, see if you can get someone with some experience to help you though your first job. I know it is hard to find people willing to do it, although if you pay them what they are worth it would be worth the education. </p><div></div>

<p>hey guys and gals if any. I did the shoot and think I did a nice job. However think I shot too much because now I have to edit. Never got to do the CD's on the spot, just too much going on and too many pics to go through. I can say that I am glad I too Kami, I learned so much about my camera and now understand its the man behind the camera. One guy that was supposed to do the shoot came to help me out and his D300 couldn't touch my d80/ and D60 pictures. One the first day with a couple of guys helping me, we shot 7k pictures, mad over kill and today shot 1,500 myself. I learned about panning in a great deal. I had to, because I was getting too much noise, even with a nice 70-200vr nikon glass. So I cranked down my ISO and panned like there was no tomorrow. Unfortunately that was mostly today. I knew to stop action, heard that I had to be at 1/500 min. but still too dark, so I went as low as 250 and sometimes 200 shutter and had the best shots. Now to make it all worth my while I have to edit and get rid of the noise on most. My left arm is dead now, shot from 8:30am -9:30pm, sat and sunday. It was over 450 kids running around flipping all day and competing in multiple events. My first real credit and I feel I did a good job. I will post some pics soon, before and after. You guys I just met and trust me you taught me alot more than the folks I meet in person with a cam. I am self taught and need some brushing up on alot of the small stuff but will get there if I continue to stay focus and keep the passion. I did learn that nothing beats a 1 or 2 something lens, and believe me that 50mm 1.8 did her thing, I just didn't like the extra space it gave me. Got a few offers from companies that are not in the DC area that are looking to use me when the need to hire local photographers for sporting events after he seen my work. That mad me feel good, and you guys kept me motivated. Both photographers quit on me after the 1st day shooting because they couldn't change the game plan at half time of this game. It just made me did harder. I shot mainly at 640 or 800 most of the time</p>