Nikon SB-800 HSS (FP?) flash wirelessly? D7000/D300 controlling

<p>can either of the cameras fire off the SB800 at higher than 1/250 sync wirelessly?<br>

would like to use the flash for outdoor photography and shutter speeds can get very high. but would like to use some off camera fill flash.</p>

<p>btw, is HSS focal plane flash the same terms?<br>

thank you</p>

 

<p>I don't think any of the built-in popup flashes on Nikon DSLRs can be used to control HSS. I'm pretty sure you need an HSS capable flash in the hotshoe of the camera before another can be slaved.</p>

<p>Are HSS and FP synch the same? - Yep! And so is Canon's Hypersync. HSS and Hypersync just sound fancier and imply more modern technology than the old slow-burning flashbulbs. Basically it just means that the flash is fired as soon as the first shutter curtain starts moving, rather than when it's fully open. It ain't no rocket surgery! Why it can't be set manually with the flick of a switch or a menu option I really don't know.</p>

<p>I use the SU-800 with a Pocketwizard FLex TT1 and TT5 to accomplish HSS at shutter speeds over 1/250 and 1/320 on a daily basis. In fact, I do so at distances of up to 150' and over using either a D3s or D800 and 2 SB800s and 1 SB900.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Basically it just means that the flash is fired as soon as the first shutter curtain starts moving, rather than when it's fully open.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I don't think that's correct -- it's not just the timing. In FP/HSS, the flash repeatedly strobes, effectively *lengthening* the time that the light is lit so that it covers the entire time the shutter slit is open. That's why it reduces flash power -- it needs to flash a lot more (light a lot longer) than a single burst.</p>

<p>You have the camera and flash, so why don't you try it?</p>

<p>Mark, I was talking about the camera shutter timing. What happens to the flash is a separate issue. Yes, on HSS compatible speedlights the mode changes to issue a burst of short pulses that simulate an elongated flash time, but HSS - let's just call it FP sync - can also be used with many older flashguns and studio strobes that have a flash duration of about 1/300th second.</p>

<p>I've successfully used old Metz 45CT and CL-1 hammerhead guns with both D700 and D800 cameras forced in FP sync mode by fitting a speedlight into the hotshoe socket and simply winding up the shutter speed beyond 1/320th. The P-C socket on the camera follows the sync of the hotshoe, and will fire anything connected to it at the beginning of curtain travel. Voila! Old fashioned FP sync that can even be used with flashbulbs if you like. The great thing about using flashes with a native long duration is that their power isn't reduced like wimpy HSS speedlights, and consequently you can use them to get some real fill power in daylight.</p>

<p>PS. Pat, just curious, but why do you want your flashes 150 feet away from the camera?</p>

<p>Okay, I understand now what you were saying. I was nervous about someone coming away with an oversimplified (incorrect) misunderstanding that HSS only affects flash timing, not flash behavior.</p>

<p>To answer the other question, p.277 of the D7000 manual (it's also in the D700 manual; I don't have a D300 manual to hand, but I suspect it's unchanged). Auto FP High-Speed Sync is available both in "Advanced Wireless Lighting" and direct connection to the camera. I'm not aware of any restriction in what you can do when triggering with the on-camera flash, other than a restriction on the number of groups (and range). Sadly I'm not next to my camera, or I'd try it. I'm not sure you'll get 150' with the on-camera flash as a trigger, though. :-)</p>

<p>Both D300 and D7000 built-in popup flashes can command remote CLS flashes in FP mode, that is at faster shutter than the X-sync.</p>

<p>What they cannot do, is they are not FP capable flashes alone. Have just enough juice to command other remote CLS/FP capable flashes in FP mode.</p>

<p>@Hans- I dont have the gear with me. will have it within a week. thanks.<br>

@Andrew. I dont even need 50'. its for some fill flash for outdoor portraits for my weddings.just 30' at most. have the SB800 close to the subjects while I might shoot with the 70-200. if I hear the flash, great, otherwise, move in closer<br>

@Frank. Okay! thats what I though. I realized the popup flash wasnt fast enough to run at higher than 1/250 so I figured it was sending a (radio) signal to the off camera SB800 to fire and its not the flash strobe thats activating it? or is it the flash and not a radio signal?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Pure CLS is not radio based. It has optical/IR communications. So there are some limitations...</p>

<p>There are 3rd party add-on systems that use radio frequency but are not CLS compatible, and only utilize the iTTL feature of Nikon CLS flashes...notably some Pocket Wizard, Phottix, etc.</p>

<p>"<em>off camera SB800 to fire and its not the flash strobe thats activating it?" </em> - No. CLS commanding means testing, adjusting power and numer of small continuous flashes (needed light duration), according to pre-flash test results, and finally trigerring the start of the remote CLS/FP flashes cycle when the shutter narrow slit starts to move/open in FP mode.</p>

If u need fill flash in day light and need to take advantage of the CLS high speed syn you need wireless system such as

flextt, minitt, photodix, yongnuo 622n, not because your pop up flash doesn't work with the sb800 but rather because

infrared of Nikon CLS hardly works in outdoor daylight over long distance.

Indoors in dancing hall, the popup commander works great esp if u have 3-4 flashes covering every corner and they

communicate well with one another.

<p>Thanks for the help guys.<br>

@Frank-I guess its the red circle to the right of the battery door?<br>

@Rick-dont need it to fire further than about 30'. should be ok.</p>

<p>Yes, the flash light sensor is near the battery door on SB800.<br /> Make sure the flash is oriented/positioned so this flash side with the sensor is facing the commander flash in the camera (the popup flash) or any commander flash in the camera hot shoe, e.g. another SB800, or better SU800. It is easy to do since the camera head rotates/tilts.</p>

<p>I see some confusion was given earlier. With D300 or D7000, you do not have to have a full featured commander FP flash in the camera hot shoe, since the built-in popup flash can serve as a CLS commander, even if it is not a FP capable flash.</p>

<p>In the film camera era, full power FP (the old flm era FP) flash was necessary in the camera hot shoe, as Joe mentioned, but with invention of CLS, the FP flash in the camera hot shoe is not necessary, but could be used if your have one.</p>

<p>The old film, FP method really required full featured/power FP flash in film camera hot shoe, because the film FP operated differently. The controlling FP flash on film camera was producing the consecutive and adjucent light flashes, and when it stopped doing it, all remote old film FP flashes also stopped at the same time. So, the full power capable FP flash was necessary in the film camera hot shoe.</p>

<p>In CLS, the commander popup flash only does commanding signals, and not the exposure sequence of FP flashes. So, remote CLS/FP flashes know how many little flashes to issue, before the shutter moves, and do not have to rely on the end of the master flashing FP sequence.</p>

<p>Some old Nikon flashes, that are not CLS, may have the FP mode (film type) built-in, but it was for the film flashes, and remote FP relied on the duration of exposure flashes produced by the main FP flash in camera hot shoe (in auto FP). This is no longer needed for CLS remore FP flashes, as they know exactly what to do, as learned from preflashes and programmed by the camera/commander, before the shutter starts moving/opening.</p>

<p> </p>

My CLS in bright daylight, or facing sunset sometimes doesn't fire even if its 10'.....have to get like 5' for a higher chance

of firing. 30' I would say is very unreliable in daylight

<p>Can someone that's used it definitely confirm that the popup flash can be used to command HSS sync? If so I stand corrected about the operation of CLS and HSS. Nikon's manual isn't too clear about it, and I can't get it to work with my D700. But then I only have one CLS+HSS capable flash to try it with.</p>

<p>Not that I'd bother with it much anyway. The power of the speedlight is cut down so much in HSS mode that it's pretty useless for fill at more than a metre or so. That's in addition to the issue of CLS being dysfunctional in daylight. I find the trick of firing a "better" flash from the P-C socket is much more useful to me.</p>

<p>Some great info Frank. bravo. cheers.<br>

Joe- I think the SB800 can most definitely fill flash an outdoor portrait from 5-10'. more than that and it may struggle on the most brightest day in the afternoon.</p>

<p>I think most wedding and outdoor portrait photographers would rather use flash in an umbrella, or otherwise off-camera and softened, rather than direct in the hotshoe. In such circumstances the SB-800, 900 etc. are severely lacking power in FP mode. Nikon's specification says they have a GN of around 17(metres) at 1/500th second; diminishing by a factor of 1.4 for every stop increase in shutter speed. Even if we believe Nikon's GN, in a white brolly that makes the useable distance only about 1.7 metres, which isn't enough space for a full-length shot. And if you want to get creative with daylight backlighting in conjunction with frontal flash....</p>

<p>With CLS you can place remote flashes very close to the subject, not very practical though.<br>

But can move the camera with short to mid telephoto lens and commander farther away to take full length figure.</p>

<p>The in camera popup flash power does not matter for the FP as it only commands so the canera can be closer or farther with no CLS down effect power loss, but the CLS/FP remote flashes, that can be placed closer to the subject, should have sufficient power.</p>

<p>It is not the FP power loss of the popup commander that you need to worry, but the remote CLS FP flashes that actually do the exposure FP flashes. Since they can be placed closer to the subject, just make sure they do not show up in the picture frame.</p>

<p>You could increase the ISO if needed or open the apertue</p>

<p>See that SU800 specification has twice the commanding range, (4 tmes the IR energy produced by SB800 as commander).</p>

<p>CLS FP commander function was already built into D70 camera popup flash, with limitation to command 2 groups of remote CLS flashes. Even now some lower end consumer grade DSLR Nikon cameras built-in flashes/cameras, do not have the FP mode.</p>

<p>HSS (High Speed Sync) is domain of Canon cameras/flashes, and possibly other brands. FP is official name of some Nikon's cameras technology. Both work on the same principle, but implemented differently, using different protocols.</p>

<p>3rd party flashes had more success to reverse engineer Canon's ETTL flashes than Nikon's CLS flashes.</p>

<p>Nikon's literaturę is available about flash applications:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/SB800_techniques.pdf">http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/SB800_techniques.pdf</a> </p>

<p>- this brochure is perhaps the best Nikon has ever produced and I do not undestand why Nikon hides it. The techniques presented for SB800 are applicable for SB900/600/700/910, and Nikon has not written up any better brochure yet.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-910GUIDE_EN.pdf">http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-910GUIDE_EN.pdf</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-700samples.pdf">http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/Speedlights/SB-700samples.pdf</a></p>

<p> </p>

<p>Frank, the issue is actually covering a full length figure (or group) evenly with light. Remember that falloff is very obvious if the lights are too close to the subject, and any diffuser loses you at least 1, maybe 2 stops. I can see how a bank of 4 CLS speedlights might do the job, but that's a ridiculously uneconomical and cumbersome way of getting maybe 200 Joules equivalent power. The same capital outlay would easily buy you a nice 400 Joule monolight and perhaps a cheap modern Li-ion battery pack as well.</p>

Rodeo Joe,

I see this thread is half a year old, but you might still read this.

Do I understand you well that when I attach a sb900 flash gun to the hotshoe of a d7100 in FP mode,

Then any flash connected with a sync cord to the PC port will start firing at the same moment as the

sb900?? Somebody told me that PC sync cords do not support high speed flash. If this works then any

flash gun at full power (=long flash duration) can be used as high speed flash gun. I can hardly believe it.

Rob