Nikon Pure Photography

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by djschaefer, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. A new camera is coming (the rumor mill has been running wild the last few days with speculations about a retro-camera) - and Nikon is teasing you with the first of what appears to be a series of videos:
    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
    http://www.nikonusa.com/nikon-video/nHbpDtaNRha/index.html
    There's already an entry in the DSLR lineup - above the D4 (?): http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/
    Of course, I am not going to repeat the rumors here - but it might be worthwhile watching the spaces I linked to over the next few days to see what develops. Can't recall when Nikon used teaser videos the last time.
    Soon, it will be in your hands again...
     
  2. The problem is, the teaser works for me. I'm interested to see what it'll be, and afraid that if some of these retro-design-gone-digital rumours are true, I might end up getting a stupid shhopping-itch while I already basically have the cameras I need and feel good with. Really annoying, marketing that works.
     
  3. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Above the D4? Must be a D5 then. :)

    That guy is capturing landscape without a tripod; can't be a very good photographer.
     
  4. They're showing off the new "In Body" VR, 6 stops on the sensor, hand hold up to three seconds with almost any lens. (Pre AI excluded)
    Oh no, I've let out the secret.
     
  5. For advertising purposes it makes sense to show photography as a casual and relaxing activity, no tripod makes it look more enjoyable. If it has the D4's 16MP FX sensor and the focal length is short it is not so likely the tripod will make a large difference photographing in daylight conditions anyway. With longer lenses, in low light, or with high resolution sensors it will make more of a difference (also if a lot of depth of field is desired) but that may not be the idea the advertisers want to promote.
     
  6. pge

    pge

    That does seem like a teaser! I have been reading the rumour sites too but wasn't taking them too seriously.
    Did you hear the shutter? Doesn't sound like any of the Dxxx's that I have owned.
    Also, am I imagining things or does the prism housing look silver. It is only in a frame or two of the video and I haven't been able to stop it in the right spot, but it looks more like my FE then it does like my Dxxx.
     
  7. It may be that DM3A I'm begging Nikon for years... :) If that's true I'm completely sold :)
     
  8. I am confused. When he turned around, where was "M" and the Aston Martin...?
     
  9. Well let`s talk about it. Maybe they are waiting for a lot of chatting to release the camera!
    "Pure photography"... it sounds Leica... Sadly, a Nikon with "M" mount seem impossible to me. Maybe there is a new line of AiS (AiD, AiP?) lenses to come :D
    Or... what about a rebirth of the "S series"? Instead of a Nikon-Contax, the partner could be Zeiss. No, wait... the camera at the photo looks to have a pentaprism. No mirrorless camera this time.
    "A photographer roaming through Scotland with a camera as his only companion" cannot be carrying a full "D" body with battery pack. A D4 type camera under the raincoat is mortifying. Instead of the tripod he`d be "roaming" with a shopping cart.
    The strap he uses is the classic narrow strap. If it were a D5, it should (hopefully!) have the look of a F6.
    Hope it is not a new "smaller-than-FX" pseudo-compact thing... ;P
     
  10. does the prism housing look silver​
    I think all you are seeing is the hotshoe.
    I'm certainly interested learning the specs of this camera - and the price point. If the rumors prove to be right, then priced either below or above the D610 will compete with either the D610 or the D800 - and then this camera would have to rely solely on looks alone to sell?
     
  11. Enlargered image:
    00c64q-543213584.jpg
     
  12. If it's got a hybrid EVF/OVF then all the friends of manual focusing will want one. So it'll sell to that market. If it has a good manual focusing screen without EVF then many will still be interested. The D4 sensor has better dynamic range at mid to high ISO than the D800 and at ISO 6400 the quality difference is quite significant, so there will be some folks who will want it for that reason (if they don't need nor want to pay for 10fps). E.g. event photographers annoyed at the extra workload of 36MP files who want the best performance in candle light.
    Some people on this forum have asked for a lower price D4 type camera as a closer successor for the D700. The D600/D610 doesn't quite do it because it has Multi-CAM 4800 instead of 3500. This new camera could satisfy some of these people, if the features are right.
    If it has a screen or viewfinder optimized for manual focus, high eyepoint (at least 18mm, preferably more) and the D4 sensor, and Multi-CAM 3500, I'll buy one. I'll suffer the retro looks if the features are beneficial to my photography. In my opinion this type of camera expands the market, it doesn't so much eat from the other FX offerings. Well, of course it eats a little, but more I think it will bring back some people who have been using/considering Sony mirrorless cameras to be used with adapters for improved manual focus.
     
  13. Nikon obviously switched ad houses for whatever they'll be unveiling. That suggests something quite different is in the offing. Lords knows their ad style and product line could use some help. The company's been utterly buzz-free for years. Battery for the sensor/processing circuitry only and a hand-cranked shutter? Optical VF with no rear display? Place your bets ladies and gents. The line starts here...
     
  14. The company's been utterly buzz-free for years.
    The D800 was buzzed to death for six to eight months before introduction. I don't think there has ever been so much debate and buzz about a Nikon camera.
     
  15. "I don't think there has ever been so much debate and buzz about a Nikon camera."
    Think the D600's cruddy sensor and its "soft" recall put that in the shade.
     
  16. pge

    pge

    I thought I was set for cameras for years (currently a D800 and D300) but if it has the D4 sensor I might start saving.
     
  17. Retro style for sure - which makes me believe that something else very special is afoot - and my guess is that it will have a EVF/OVF hybrid finder.
     
  18. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Here's a better look at the 'silver' hot shoe.
    I may have to move to Scotland. Do they have whisky there?
    00c65h-543214384.jpg
     
  19. An EVF with a hot shoe on it? 8>/
     
  20. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    "Pure" photography? You guys got it all wrong. That must be the F7.
    Or maybe D400. :)
    One way or another, apparently Nikon has gotten people to talk about it.
     
  21. My stomach is all ready shaking with the excitement. Nikon DM3a would be the dream of my life. With the battery grip, almost the same as the old MD-12 would be fantastic. I just picked up my FM3a and give it a kiss. NIKON please, don't put any gimmick ( I only use my cameras on M mode) to the camera, simple M (B 1-4000) & A. ISO dial and that's it. Minimum knobs, button, dial. A digital FM3a. If it is true, and Nikon come our with a camera like that, I would sell my D4 D3a D700 D40 right a way, and bay two (2) of them. One more! NO POP-UP FLASH please.
     
  22. LoL, agree with the "pop-up" thing...
    But about the retro style, looks like Ilkka have read it on my mind... "I'll suffer the retro look if the features are beneficial to my photography... " :)
    (BTW, the guy looks really "retro", so certainly there must be something about it... :D)
     
  23. Addendum; No need any digital output, connection except flash trigger connection and hot-shoe. Use card reader all the time. NO VIDEO PLEAS....!
     
  24. Huh ?....already suffering the spin. Nice diversion from looking at what S is offering.....
    Les
     
  25. As an owner of a D800 I would find a way to get this camera if it has:
    - Smaller body like a FM3A or even the F3
    - Hybrid OVF/EVF: The EVFs of the m43 bodies is what has made me get m43 gear - not what Nikon wants for sure
    - Made for manual focusing (aperture ring, DOF preview, OVF screen/EVF resolution, etc.)
    - Great external controls
    - Decent price ($2K would be my personal limit)
    Make some pancake primes Nikon to go along with this bad boy!
     
  26. From the blown-up image on NR I get:
    - The pentaprism bump has a triangular face to it, much different than current curved DSLR prism bumps and similar to FM2, FE2, F3 cameras
    - Does not look like it has a built-in flash (due to previous observation)
    - Has a flash hot shoe
    - Does not have a super large grip (though it appears to have one)
    - His finger on the shutter button seems to be on a flat surface, unlike a D700, D800, D4, etc. The surface seems to be flat hence the top surface of the camera may be more flat, like an FE2, FM2, F3, etc.
    - The lens is not short and squat - seems like it's a cosmetically re-designed 50/1.8G to me
    - Chrome ring at the base of the lens. A 50/1.8G with a chrome DOF marking band?
    - The camera does not look D4-ish in size (assuming he does not have large hands)
    - The eye piece seems to be very wide on his face - many EVFs are like this because they have a proximity sensor next to it to turn the EVF on and off automatically.
     
  27. Well, if that really is the camera in the video I'm yawning already. A DSLR bulge and what looks like a popup flash on top - how 'retro' can it be? I was hoping maybe a digital S3, but it's probably going to be about as retro as a chrome-finish D700. Not liking the shutter noise it makes either.
    A mirrorless F mount camera; now maybe that'd pique my interest. But only if it was full-frame.
     
  28. Rodeo Joe - I don't think it looks like it has a built-in flash at all based on my earlier observations. It looks like it has the triangular front face to the pentaprism bulge just like an FE, F2, FM3A, etc.
    The shutter noise sounds like it's from a FM3A or something - a big shutter in a small metal body.
     
  29. And, I suspect if it has an EVF it will have some type of electronic shutter capability perhaps . . .
     
  30. D900?
    D3 -> D700
    D4 -> D900
    That would be so cool!
    --Lannie
     
  31. I'm expecting a D5 at some point, but I doubt this is it. I could speculate, but I guess we won't have long to wait to find out. If it's a D4 sensor in something cheap, I'm mildly curious, but not hugely so: the current generation of high pixel count sensors don't lose out much to the lower resolution ones, at least compared with the situation a few years ago. It may turn out to be something that I'd rather have a D3s than have...

    Maybe "pure photography" means "we've encrypted the NEFs again so you can't read them in photoshop"?

    If it's an F7, I'll be deeply interested (from afar). Astonished, but interested. (If it was a cheap film camera with the compatibility levels of an F5/F6 though I'm probably there.) Oh well, we'll see. Meanwhile, I wonder that the Nexus 5 will be?
     
  32. Monochrom?
     
  33. If it's a "DM3a"... I am already sorely tempted...
     
  34. A 36-mp sensor in a lower-grade body than the D800?
    Probably not, but you do wonder what on earth could possible justify this much teasing.
    --Lannie
     
  35. Could the AF-S 50 f1.8 (without "G") even be expected to have an aperture ring?
    This might be exactly the camera I'd hoped for since the introduction of the first DSLRs. If it'll be the "DM3a" as termed by another poster, this would be the 2nd reason after the sensors to drag me away from Canon. My FE2 already jumps up and down in the cabinet.
     
  36. I could tolerate 16 mp on a full-frame sensor without having to pay for the D4--but I don't think that there is enough commitment to a great prosumer grade, low-light camera to make that likely.
    --Lannie
     
  37. It could be that the guy in the video is using something other than the 50/1.8G . . . something with an aperture ring. I sure hope the new 50/1.8G has one - then, by definition it wouldn't be a "G" lens then would it?
     
  38. I did preorder one.
    It has OVF and EVF like others have said and it is FX. Also it has a fast frame rate around 10-14 fps as it goes into EVF mode when needed. The mirror is used only when below 1 to 3 fps. Naturally. 24 Mpix yes, because the limiting factor has been the data transfer rate. They can now do 24 Mpix instead 16Mpix they did 2 years ago at or higher than 10 fps.
    DE-series? DE1, my bets are on that.
    Actually the contrast detection AF has improved all the time. The technology has been developed, tested and used in smaller cameras already.
    Didn't I?
    Ok, the other option is a Pure View like Nokia not-a-camera-but-a-phone. In that case it would be a 2 x 24 = 48Mpix camera, so somebody could see the lens faults on the new 58/1.4 better.
     
  39. Ah, right ... it seems to carry the "G" designation in the teaser video ... slightly saddening.
     
  40. We'll have to wait and see. I didn't save money for it despite the rumors. I went ahead and spent another $1,400 on another lens from the 1840s. :)
    Kent in SD
     
  41. Gup

    Gup Gup

    but you do wonder what on earth could possible justify this much teasing.​
    I don't. Sony just announced two potentially game changing bodies that have other forums buzzing like crazy and Nikon's had their hand forced.
    Personally, I'm pretty excited to see if they can keep me in their ranks. After 30 years I've never been so disillusioned with them. I've sold my D2x and three D700s in anticipation of a new announcement and so far it's a Sony A7R that's got my interest. Who'd a thunk?
     
  42. Confusing. Looks like Digital, smells like film.
    The ad is placed in the DSLR box on the Nikon collection, but the video depicts a sensation experienced by anyone who uses film, and the dialogue conveys this. 'It's in my hands again?' As if once film lost, now back again? I don't know, but if it is a DM3a I'm in too.
     
  43. event photographers annoyed at the extra workload of 36MP files who want the best performance in candle light.​
    bingo.
     
  44. Don, I shoot b&w film every week and process&print it in my own darkroom, and I really think film is in the siding rail. Specially for the printing stage, maybe scanning , but current film scanner production is also dead. Color processes become extinct, like dinosaurs.
    (Thanks God there are still good films and papers available (thanks Harman), but one really needs to be a "retro" to use them).
    Wait, Halloween in a week... maybe is a release for zombies. If so, it could be a film camera!
    BTW, the camera in the photo could look like an F3. Maybe the pentaprism front is not that wide as the HP, but the plain DE-3. There could be also a silver ring, typical of MF lenses. So it will be a F3D, or a D3F, or a FD3M, DE3a, or... what a mess. It cannot have a "M" designation, it does`t make sense to have a mechanical shutter (or it does... ?)
    Would anybody here like to suffer an speed turret (F4 lovers aside) on a DSLR?!?!?!
    I`m pretty sure it cannot be a "monochrom" version... if so, a big letdown for me.
     
  45. What if it is a D5xxx on a F3 looking body? (Do you remember the F601/N6006 versions?)
     
  46. I agree with the wish for small compact lenses of very high optical quality and a finder that makes manual focusing easy.
    Of course my E P-5 is much of that but I like keeping with Nikon.
     
  47. ....and we know when it's going to be announced because Shun will clear the top space of the Thread List the night before.....:)
    That shutter sound is pretty weird! Certainly not good for use in archives or the theatre!
    +1 Eric! But the Vid style would be a real bit of twisted logic!
     
  48. That guy is capturing landscape without a tripod; can't be a very good photographer.​
    Is Shun just toying with us, or has he just given us a hint?
    I would love to be able to go into the back country and do landscapes without a tripod, but to do that I would have to have (1) a very fast shutter and (2) a camera that could give me such a fast shutter by boosting ISO without any particular chroma or luminance noise.
    Now, if Nikon were to be able to make and offer such a camera at this time, it would truly revolutionize photography--and severely hurt the tripod market.
    Maybe I am just engaging in wishful thinking. . . . Even so, can one doubt that such a camera is coming sooner or later? Could the one we are being teased about be IT?
    What woud such a camera require in terms of present technology? I think that it would likely have to be full-frame with a modest number of megapixels, say twelve to sixteen.
    Again, I am thinking a prosumer upgrade of something like the D4 or D3s. . . . Thus did I mention a possible "D900" above--that is, an even more spectacular but low-priced upgrade of the D700. Of course, that would be too good to be true.
    Maybe.
    --Lannie
     
  49. Sony just announced two potentially game changing bodies that have other forums buzzing like crazy
    There is a lot of buzz but some of it is premature. The lenses offered by Sony and Zeiss are a very limited selection and the two primes are very expensive for the specifications. Adapters to other brands' lenses offer only a limited functionality and there is concern about optical compatibility when the microlenses are designed and their positions are offset optimally for the manufacturer's own lenses, other lenses may not work as well. There is a lot of talk for sure but if past experiences are anything to go by, Sony will offer very limited lens support for their camera systems, and this means it doesn't present a major competitor to users of Nikon and Canon systems with 50+ lenses for various special purposes as well as general use available by the camera manufacturer alone, add third party lenses on top of that and dozens of interesting previous generation lenses that people have or are available on the second hand market. Adopting these lenses to Sony mirrorless cameras reduces their functionality by a great deal. From what I understand the A7r which has no AA filter, has offset microlenses and as a result may work better with old rangefinder lenses than the A7 which has the AA filter but no offset microlenses (correct me if I'm wrong). Only the A7 has phase-detect autofocus so I would expect very slow AF from the A7r, especially for tracking moving subjects. So the A7r may be better for manual focus lens users and A7 for AF, judging from what information I've been able to find so far. But there aren't so many AF lenses available and for the price, those offer comparatively small maximum apertures (especially the price of the 35/2.8 and 55/1.8 is quite amazing considering what can be had for DSLRs for that price i.e. 28/1.8 and 50/1.4).
    Finally, for a lot of us the clear real time view of the optical viewfinder is a key feature that affects our choice of camera system. Sony has abandoned optical viewfinders in their DSLR lineup and offers no optical viewfinders for mirrorless. In my opinion this is a fatal omission and means that I am very unlikely to purchase their equipment.
    So I think "game changing" is premature, but for sure there is a lot of buzz on forums. Whether that leads to camera purchases in the long term and changes in the market share, remains to be seen. What is good from my point of view is if the Sony cameras lead to Nikon providing better support of manual focus either by introducing a hybrid OVF/EVF viewfinder with focusing aides for the EVF, or better focusing screens for detection of whether the AF hit it right or not, and for manual focusing. I think a good part of the motivation of possible Nikon->Sony switchers is from people who want to adopt manual focus lenses and don't need AF in their work. Whether these people actually are a large population remains to be seen, but even though I use AF for most of my stuff I would appreciate improvements in manual focusability for situations where AF is not ideal.
     
  50. [​IMG][​IMG], Oct 25, 2013; 08:32 a.m. (edit )
    Referencing my post at the time noted just above: Should we be putting most of our tripods and mounts up on eBay just yet? What DOES one do with tripods once they become obsolete for most photography?
    Are we close to that revolutionary development?
    --Lannie
     
  51. Hi Landrum. NO, we do not have to discard the tripods, regardless we using less and less time. But, how do you going to do a long exposure shoot without the tripod, or a longer exposure needed for a darker morning, evening, graduated neutral density filter on the lens, exposure a 1/15 or longer, aperture 16-22 to get a lots of depth of field, etc. Long lens shooting, like birding still need a tripod. Yes, for general photography, we no longer need a tripod. But, to play safe, still a recommended tool to get a sharp image.
    "That guy is capturing landscape without a tripod; can't be a very good photographer."
    It is not a big deal, I shooting landscapes in good light and wether, hand held, thanks for the D3s and D4 high ISO capabilities.
     
  52. Re. Sony, a reminder that, when Nikon were selling the D3x and Canon selling the 1Ds3, Sony massively undercut them both with the A900. The forums briefly said "whoah, cheap 24MP full frame camera" - but they really didn't make a big dent in the sales of the duopoly. It's interesting that these cameras were released, but the company that I suspect should be most scared of it is Leica. Besides, I see the biggest benefits of mirrorless as being for wide angles that don't need to be (as) retrofocal and, mostly, portability. Portability is a hard sell when you have a big sensor and all your lenses are 1.5x longer (usually physically) than those on a DX camera.

    I maintain, as I have for some time, that the "too many pixels" issue could have been fixed by Nikon implementing something like sRAW, not just by actually reducing the sensor site count on their cameras. IMHO they really should have done this with the D800 - it would have fixed the biggest complaint. Still, computers have got a lot faster in the years since the D700 was released, and I maintain that the time taken to process D800 images now is no more prohibitive than the time taken to process D700 images was when it came out. Of course, people quite like that processing D700 images now is faster than it used to be with an older computer; I'm just suggesting perspective, not ignoring the issue.

    Historically, Nikon have done a very good job of releasing things that make me think "why on earth did they release that?" rather than meeting what a lot of people have asked for. If this is a double-bluff and the new camera is a D400, kudos to them. I'll wait to see what turns up, but I'm not rushing to get my D800 on ebay.

    Lannie: I use my old tripods as studio stands to position flashes. Though I'm not really considering them useless yet when it comes to trying to track birds with a manual focus 500mm, or for astrophotography. Alternatively, you can always use the spiked feet to fend off anyone wanting to steal your exciting new camera. And there's Galen Rowell's trick of using them for drying the washing.
     
  53. pge

    pge

    Historically, Nikon have done a very good job of releasing things that make me think "why on earth did they release that?" rather than meeting what a lot of people have asked for.​
    This makes me pause. I have heard this before. Read the responses above and you quickly come to the conclusion that if Nikon really was to release what people have asked for, they would have to release a separate camera for each individual. The list of wants and demands above are staggering.
    As for the claim that the D800 has too many pixels, I see just as many demands for cameras in the 40, 50, 60 range. You can't please most of the people some of the time, or something like that. I was perfectly pleased with 12 megapixels, however 36 has not been a problem, my computer handles them just fine. Although when I purchased a 10 megapixel D200 in 2006 I had to buy a new computer to keep up.
     
  54. Looks kinda heavy....built in 1kg gyroscope? Hand-held down to 4 seconds. Of course, don't try following a horse over a jump with it 'cos you won't be able to move it that fast!
    EDIT..
    As for the claim that the D800 has too many pixels, I see just as many demands for cameras in the 40, 50, 60 range​
    I guess I must have missed all of those posts on the Nikon forum.. Canon's maybe?
    Gosh, the pre D4 'blank' space on the Nikon site has gone??
     
  55. Yes, it has gone! So, nothing to chat about. This discussion should be closed... :D
    BTW, there is a HUGE difference between tripod and no-tripod. To me, non-tripod shooters are journalists, not photographers... ;)
     
  56. Gosh, the pre D4 'blank' space on the Nikon site has gone??​
    Yes, and the D300s still leads the DX series no matter what they say about D7100...:)))
     
  57. Somebody's comments, I agree full heartedly. Digital FM3a, without all the automatizations.
    " Hi all,
    A while ago... there was a (bs) rumour of Nikon returning a classic design (FM2 / FE2 / FM3a) style camera with a digital sensor.. This is more of a theoretical question - who would want / love / hate to see this come to reality? How successful do you think it may be?
    DM3a would probably have something like (made up on the spot):
    16MP FF Sensor (or whatever)
    Contrast AF + Split Screen Focusing Screen for fast MF
    Bright, 95% coverage with a reasonable magnification level..
    Matrix, Center-weighted & Spot Metering.
    3.5FPS (or whatever again).
    500 grams.
    Personally, i think the FM3a is the most beautiful camera ever made by Nikon aesthetically. I prefer it's size for everyday use, it's weight, and it's overall character and build. I like manual focus with a big viewfinder and a split focusing screen.. Ripping out the AF would allow the camera to retain it's pleasant, small size.. To anyone here who hasn't used one and who has only owned consumer DSLR's - you don't understand the level of character and build. I strongly recommend handling one if you ever get the chance.
    Tandem this up with CZ manual focus lenses, or old Nikon AI-S lenses.. 24mm f/2, 50mm f1.2, 85mm f/1.4, oh my god.. i wouldn't need to buy another camera in my life for everyday use.
    Thoughts? "
     
  58. My guess is that Nikon saw Sony running away with all the buzz lately about their new camera, and decided to release an ad at least about something. They badly needed to stay in the spotlight. As to what this "something" is, who knows. Trying to figure it out from the ad is like looking at clouds and guessing what they look like. A digital FM3--would I be interested? I don't know. It might be full frame, and I don't have the lenses for that any more. I'm not keen on buying yet another set of lenses. I'll wait and see what shows up. It might be too late for Nikon to get this out by Christmas now? As for the retro look, I'm not sure I'd spend what will have to be over $1,000 on a digital camera that will quickly lose value. I love "retro," but have plenty of choices already in my closet to pick from.
    Kent in SD
    00c6Ew-543231884.jpg
     
  59. pge

    pge

    I guess I must have missed all of those posts on the Nikon forum.​
    I won't try to link to another forum, not sure if I can or not but it wouldn't be polite to the PN owners. However, Model Mayhem, as you can imagine, is full of studio shooters so their views might be a bit slanted. At any rate there you will find many discussions about higher megapixel cameras. Several people there seem to think that 36 is the new low water mark. Their forums are divided into Model and Photographer and not by brand of camera.
    My guess is that Nikon saw Sony running away with all the buzz lately about their new camera, and decided to release an ad about something.​
    But the problem with this line of thinking is that if Nikon is near a release, they would have had to start developing the camera ages ago.
     
  60. From what I understand the A7r which has no AA filter, has offset microlenses and as a result may work better with old rangefinder lenses than the A7 which has the AA filter but no offset microlenses (correct me if I'm wrong).​
    That's my current understanding too. And from this test http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 peformed with the A7 (and not the A7R) those offset lenses are certainly necessary to use M-mount wide angle lenses. But some of those lenses cause problems even on the M9 and M 240 - so no reason to get ones hopes up to high.

    I purchased a NEX 6 to use with two Leica M lenses (35/2 ASPH and 90/2) and would certainly like to use them on a full frame camera. But I am weighing the restricted use of manual focus and stop down metering vs the cost of an A7 or A7R. This photozone test of the 35/2 ASPH reveals a lens that is very sharp in the center and with virtually no CA - but only a so-so corner performance, large vignetting, and a hideous bokeh if not shot wide open; certainly IMO not justifying a $3000 price tag.
    More and more I am leaning towards the opinion that it might be better to use modern lenses with these new cameras instead of that expensive Leica or Zeiss legacy glass or it's lower priced Voigtlander alternatives. More trouble than they are worth?
    And FWIW, many wide angle lenses can't even be used on a NEX 6 (and fare even worse on a NEX 7) - it's for that reason that I use my Tokina 11-16/2.8 as my "superwide" on the NEX 6. Works like a charm but is, of course, a bit on the large side.
    Re: the Nikon DF (if that's what it indeed will be called) - wouldn't it be time for the 2nd video); it's no good to start a buzz and then stop feeding the frenzy.
     
  61. To complete the retro experience I've heard that the new camera will use a new cylinder shaped memory card that fits in the back of the camera. You open the back by pulling up on the release mode dial on the top left. After each shot the user will need to push a lever with the right thumb to advance to the next digital frame. A new motor drive will be available for those requiring a higher frame rate, but in keeping with the pricing started with the introduction of the MB-D12 will require a second mortgage on your home.
    I've also heard there will be a second version that is actually made from cardboard in the shape of the camera shown in Nikon's teaser ad. When you open the back of this version, inside you will find a shiny new D400.
     
  62. This makes me pause. I have heard this before. Read the responses above and you quickly come to the conclusion that if Nikon really was to release what people have asked for, they would have to release a separate camera for each individual. The list of wants and demands above are staggering.​
    I should clarify: There are a lot of requests for "what I really want in a camera is..." along with a specific set of features that would make it more expensive or less useful for a lot of other people. I can completely understand why Nikon ignores this kind of thing. On the other hand, there are times when - given the apparent holes in Nikon's line-up, a lot of public of analysis by prominent bloggers on the internet, and calls by people on forums - it's hard to see why Nikon decided to prioritize something entirely different.

    The D600 (and 6D) surprised me, because I thought people would object to a camera with cut-down features other than the big sensor. It turns out that they do, but people are still buying them, and Nikon managed to make one not that cut down. Fair enough - though I'm a little concerned about profit margins during the price war. There have been calls for what would effectively be a D3000 with an FX sensor; it would be marginally cheaper (yes, people still claim the D600 was too costly) and I'm sure people would complain. I'm not saying I'm always right, just that I'm often surprised and that there's limited benefit to my trying to guess.

    Looking at the 58 f/1.4, I wasn't expecting one. I am, at some point, expecting a 300 f/4 VR (at least if it doesn't steal sales from the f/2.8), a new 135 f/2, and refreshes to the 70-200 f/2.8 and, especially, 24-70. I wasn't expecting yet another normal f/1.4 lens. Actually, I'm mildly interested, but I wasn't expecting it. To make people happy (not me, I don't have a DX camera), I might have hoped for a couple of f/1.8 wide DX primes, or a fast DX zoom or two. Not yet another variant of a superzoom.

    But I don't run Nikon's product decisions, and I have no evidence that I'd do a good job if I did. I just sometimes wonder what people were thinking.

    Phil: There were certainly lots of complaints that 12MP wasn't enough. I sympathize with Nikon - you can't accuse them of not having fixed that problem with the D800, and then people criticise them for it.
     
  63. I find it interesting that the D300s is ahead of the D7100 and the D90 ahead of the D5300 in the Nikon lineup.
     
  64. The line up is a combo of chronology within the sub-division of FX > DX high end to low end....ie the D90 is higher end than the 5*** series as it has screwdrive.
     
  65. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I find it interesting that the D300s is ahead of the D7100 and the D90 ahead of the D5300 in the Nikon lineup.​
    Well, if you arrange the cameras based on their respective initial price in the US, that would be the right order. The D300S was $1800 when it was introduced back in 2009, the D90 $1000 in 2008. Otherwise, there little debate about the D300/D300S, D90 and D5000 have very similar 12MP sensors, and the succession is D5000 -> D5100 -> D5200 -> D5300.
    For me, I never bought a D300S, which is essentially the same camera as the D300 plus dual CF/SD memory cards and primitive HD video. I replaced my D300 with the D7000 back in 2010 and then replaced the D7000 with the D7100 earlier this year. The D300/D300S are two generations behind, and now in 2013, we should be speculating when the D500 will replace the D400.
    As I mentioned on the following rumor thread earlier: New Retro Nikon? http://www.photo.net/casual-conversations-forum/00c5bk I currently have no insider info that is not already in the public domain, such as the teaser video. Obviously Nikon seems to have another new camera to announce, but then every 2, 3 months, they have another new camera to announce so that you can safely say at any time that Nikon will "soon" have another new camera. Otherwise, whether the rumor is from rumor sites or from and official Nikon teaser, we can keep posting till our faces are blue, these discussions will get absolutely nowhere until the official announcement.
     
  66. Gup

    Gup Gup

    So I think "game changing" is premature, but for sure there is a lot of buzz on forums​
    Ilkka, you are always the voice of reason here. When I used the phrase 'game changing' I really meant the game of selling cameras more than the game of photography. I sought out all the information I could find when I first heard the announcement from Sony and then was dismayed at the limitations I could perceive, lens limits being the most serious. As always, no tool will 'do it all' (except those sold on late night info commercials). So, I totally agree with your assessment.
    Since taking the advice of Shun and company a couple of years ago I did adjust to the smaller body of the D700 after years of only pro Nikon bodies and now look forward to something that might be even smaller and lighter for the future. I won't sacrifice build quality or image quality, though, so it would require a FF sensor and my wish list would be 24 megs. I've never used more than 12 and that is an exciting prospect for me. I expect it to be built like a brick, too, if it is a true retro design. And finally, I'd love it to be enough camera that I never had to upgrade again. I don't require any improvements in AF or fps or ISO, just dynamic range, resolution and longevity.
     
  67. Well, AFAIK, Nikon has never released a new camera over the weekend, so go take what you've already got, go outside and enjoy using it!
    Now Mondays, that's another question. I like Thursday myself.
     
  68. In the film time, between several different models (F801, F4, Nikkormats FTN/2/3) ultimately the F3HP was and probably is my all-time favourite camera. The transition to digital went relatively smooth via D200 and D300 and now back to full-frame with D800. Those bodies are intuitive, fast, reliable, and offered great backward compatibility with my old lenses. Like today, I worked with the D800 and an old 24/2.8 and it definately felt like 'pure photography'..
    [​IMG]
    ..So I came from the film time.. and now have all the camera I could ever want..
    But I am so excited to see what Nikon comes up with!! ;-)
     
  69. Things that would return the "pure photography" experience for me: (i) full-frame body, (ii) about the size and weight of an F2, with (iii) comparable optical finder magnification, (iv) optimized for manual focus (with or without hybrid elements), and (v) comparable build quality. The rest is up to them.
     
  70. I'm excited because there is the possibility to have a compact FX digital body that will work well with my compact primes (16/3.5 AI, 20/2.8D, 45/2.8P, 90/3.5CV, 180/4 CV) and provide an excellent way for manual focusing that does not work very well now with my D800 (poor focusing screen & insufficiently accurate focus confirmation dot).
    This may stop me from building my m43 system from more than I have now - just what Nikon wants to hear I suppose.
    It would help this camera out a ton if Nikon came out with some compact primes that were excellent for manual focusing.
    24MP would be better for me, but I can make due with 16MP for sure. I don't think I'll be selling my D800 though as it just works so well for other types of photography.
     
  71. Very...Very!...Interesting that Nikon pulled the mystery camera out of the Digital box. That means the possibilities have been expanded! Nikon Medium Format film Camera? A stretch, but then again maybe its another rebirth of the rangefinder. Whatever it is, it still smells like film to me.
     
  72. I would love to see then put a rangefinder on the market again and so would a lot of film manufacturers.
    -O
     
  73. I don't see any way that Nikon will release a film camera. Lomo, yes. Nikon, no.
    Kent in SD
     
  74. And teaser video #2 is up - revealing some more of the camera: http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
     
  75. "Besides, I see the biggest benefits of mirrorless as being for wide angles that don't need to be (as) retrofocal and, mostly, portability"
    Not sure whether there retrofocal or not but I think generally we've seen that on digital this talked about advantage doesn't seem to have appeared, mirrorless UWA's(at least the ones with decent performance unlike the Sony 16mm E mount) have all been pretty large/long lenses. That's at 43 and ASPC sensor size as well with only the Fuji and Zeiss primes being faster than F/4.
    I look at the new FE lenses and to me they actually look significantly longer than I'd expect for similar DSLR designs. You look at say the 28-70mm kit lens and its actually almost exactly the same length as the Nikon 24-85mm kit dispite the latter being wider, longer and faster. I'm wondering whether the relatively modest specs on them aren't just an effort to balance the camera but rather to cover this issue?
     
  76. teaser video #2
    ??
    Looks like it is Inside some half case
    00c6Mf-543243884.jpg
     
  77. Refreshing... Nobody wants Rumours on this website...unless... they are started by Nikon ?? :)
    BTW, those teaser pics , to me, look like nikon film camera's with a "digital Back" attached to it...:)
     
  78. pge

    pge

    They are certainly ramping things up with these teaser videos. The camera got much more screen time in this second one. About the size of an F3, a black leather strap that says nikon on it, and of course a silver ring on the lens. hmmm
     
  79. Nikon is getting his own way... in this second teaser they caught me. This size of camera, with a good sensor and lens compatability could be highly appealing to me.
    The silver ring on the lens... on a metal barrel it`s ok. But I wonder about it on a plastic lens...
     
  80. The strap looks cheap... not the one I used to have in my hands...
     
  81. I would bet that Nikon is going to release the answer to Sony's A7 full frame mirrorless camera.
     
  82. Me too.
     
  83. I think the silver ring may be simply what exists on some Ai and Ai-S lenses. I don't think it is necessarily an addition related to the camera itself, though can't be sure.
     
  84. Lens with silver ring could be one of still current AIS manual focus nikkors. 8 manual focus AIS lenses are still listed as current (still manufactured?) on nikon website including 50mm f1.2.
     
  85. The silver ring on the lens... on a metal barrel it`s ok. But I wonder about it on a plastic lens...​
    Not something new though - think Nikon Series E lenses: plastic barrel and with a "chrome" ring (at least the later versions).
     
  86. They say "pure photography"
    What is impure photography?
    By the way, they dont say "pure camera"
     
  87. pge

    pge

    Here is what the new camera look like beside my Nikon FE with a 50mm lense.
    00c6Sh-543255384.jpg
     
  88. 'This' camera looks really, REALLY.. WIDE! Way wider than the FE...!
    Some kinda new 72 x 24 format?
    All the teaser videos have been really wide-angle views...big WIDE glacier-carved glens.....big WIDE river scene with 2 fisherman and a big WIDE river??
     
  89. I think the model/actor has a narrow face, so it may not be that big.

    I hope they make a 36MP or higher res version some day. 16MP is too small for the kind of high detail landscapes I am mainly doing.
     
  90. By the way, they dont say "pure camera"​
    No, but they do say something that at least suggests a camera, pure or otherwise:
    "Soon, it will be in your hands again. . ."​
    --Lannie
     
  91. Mike
    Maybe they need the width in the body for the electronics. I don't think you could get even a basic DSLR to run on a button cell battery
     
  92. When you look at the tear down photos at IFIXIT of the D600 the circuit board is quite large, so the width is probably required for a similar-sized board.
    http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nikon+D600+Teardown/10708/3
     
  93. My idea of a "pure" camera in the context of our favorite and familiar old film era toys would include user-controlled presets for in-camera JPEGs. It'd save a lot of time if I could plug in my favorite Lightroom presets (or, for other folks, Nik, DxO or other effects). And the raw files are still available in case we change our minds. Best of film and digital all in one.
    I like in-camera JPEG effects and "art fiters". I just want to be able to choose my own, rather than be limited to whatever the manufacturer provides.
    The first manufacturer to offer this feature wins the "pure" camera game.
     
  94. user-controlled presets for in-camera JPEGs​
    Lex, I like that idea, combined with raw files, as you say. I don't know how "pure" it would be, but it could sure save some time in post.
    --Lannie
     
  95. Lannie:
    I don't know how any photography can be at this point but that is the fun of it. I doubt I will be alive ten years from now but it should be interesting to see how those that are look at the perspective we have now. I think this is what the whole thing ia about.
    -Cheers
     
  96. [[The first manufacturer to offer this feature wins the "pure" camera game.]]
    Something like that may indeed be possible with the Samsung Galaxy NX. Just need to write an app for that...
    http://www.dpreview.com/products/Samsung/slrs/samsung_galaxynx
     
  97. Phil, where did you get this image? Is it reliable? The one I took from the Nikon`s site doesn`t have that detail.
     
  98. MM The frame that xhows the lens also shows a little black cover on the right topside of the lens.These little caps are found on older camera models like the F801S (n8008) and protect the two pin connector for accesories...
    00c6XP-543261484.jpg
     
  99. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Here's a better look at the length of the guy's finger.
    Can teaser three be far off?
    00c6ZI-543263584.jpg
     
  100. Maybe the camera in the ad is just a prop.
     
  101. I don't know how any photography can be at this point but that is the fun of it. I doubt I will be alive ten years from now but it should be interesting to see how those that are look at the perspective we have now. I think this is what the whole thing ia about.​
    Owen, I don't know if I will make it another ten years or not, either. I have to say, though, that I have enjoyed digital photography immensely since I bought my Olympus E-20 in January, 2002 (after shooting film SLRs since 1977--and Kodak Instamatics before that). I really have been enthralled to see one barrier after another come down during the digital epoch, and I am always wondering what will come next.
    It really has been a fun ride. I bought a D800E last year, and that is quite a ways from the E-20, which had only five megapixels. I also got a second-hand D3s this past summer, and it has been a lot of fun--shooting at ISO 12,800 in virtually dark conditions handheld.
    Who knows what's coming?! After all these years, I can hardly wait to see--even though I can't afford to buy a thing right now--and arguably will never really need more than what I have.
    Interestingly (well it is to me), the time of my shooting an SLR or more recent camera has been almost as long as my career in college teaching--one an avocation, the other a vocation. Now I only teach part-time for a local community college, and so I have seen almost my entire college teaching career and my "career" as an amateur photographer come and go--in the blink of an eye, as they say. Where did it go?
    --Lannie
     
  102. pge

    pge

    Phil, where did you get this image? Is it reliable? The one I took from the Nikon`s site doesn`t have that detail.​
    You are referring to this link: http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
    There is a better version of this photo on the rumor site's flickr account, but its the same photo so I think its reliable.
     
  103. As Don Bright said above, "Maybe the camera in the ad is just a prop."
    If that turns out to have been the case, all of our speculations about "retro" will have been for naught.
    --Lannie
     
  104. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Lannie, our speculations about a retro camera aren't based on these blurry images. The buzz has been ongoing for awhile now around the web.
    I have also wondered if the model is holding a prop.
     
  105. And teaser #3 is live: "No clutter, no distractions, this is my world". http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
    Seems to be a AF Nikkor 24/2.8 he is blowing dust off of - but it's does not seem to be the same lens he is then mounting onto the camera - that one has a chrome ring and likely is that new 50/1.8G. And the camera definitely looks retro. And what's that dial on the right side of the camera (where the grip is)?
    Given the wide range of expectations on what that camera will have to be, many are bound to be disappointed once the full specs and appearance will be known.
     
  106. Yes, it's definitely a chrome ring which means to me that there is an aperture ring of some sort. Also the external shape of the new 50/1.8G seems very different than the current version.
     
  107. In today`s soap chapter, the leading is cleaning some dust out of his AF/AFD lens (looks like a plain 52mm thread lens, so it doesn`t have a silver ring). The rear (mount) of the lens is darkened.
    In the following sequence, the back of a lens is flashed, a silver ring and something like a "G" type mount is shown... (maybe with a longer back?)... I try to see even the MA/M switch... but there isn`t the usual aperture ring.
    My guess is that these are two lenses, the first one is something like a 35/2AFD, the second one a new different lens which enjoys a silver "retro" looking ring and a "G" type back.
    Is there an adapter? It could be extremely important. Maybe what is "on my hands again" is the 35/2... (hope it is a new one! ;)

    I`m having fun with Nikon these days... I wonder about my life after the release... :)
     
  108. Looks like there is a film rewind lever on the right side...
    I Wonder what is the white text on the front
    00c6hY-543277184.jpg
     
  109. This' camera looks really, REALLY.. WIDE! Way wider than the FE...!​
    Oh. Well that explains it. Nikon is releasing a medium format camera to compete with the S2.

    (Ducks)
     
  110. Not that there's anything wrong with film....but there's absolutely no sense for Nikon to invest time and money re-inventing a retro-film camera. I refuse to believe it's film based.
    We're only being shown FX lenses, so an FX rangefinder is a possibility with a new type of augmented EVF.
    Short of some very exotic, built-in optical converter, the flange>sensor distance is still the limiting factor in body depth if you want to use FX lenses....unless you fold the optical path....now that would be scary! Bounce the image sideways maybe?
    EDIT.
    Cheers Andrew! Wide but kinda shallow!.....You'd never get an FX lens to cover MF sensor area...without auxiliary optics.
     
  111. the flange>sensor distance is still the limiting factor in body depth if you want to use FX lenses....unless you fold the optical path....now that would be scary!​
    Well, I've been suggesting for a little while that if you have permanent mirror lock-up, you could collapse the lens into the mirror box for transport (at least, most lenses). Few people care about a camera being big in use, it's when it's being carried around unused that size is an issue. Works better with a pentamirror, because you could collapse the finder as well. It's just a small matter of engineering. :)

    The alternative is to start making very short lenses with diffractive optics, making it easier to collapse them.
    You'd never get an FX lens to cover MF sensor area...without auxiliary optics.​
    Well, there did seem to be a new lens... (and, technically, I have a couple of medium format lenses for shift reasons in an F mount...) - but no, I'm not really expecting this (in case anyone thinks I've lost my remaining senses.)
     
  112. Something to compete with the Sony RX-1?
    [LINK]
    --Lannie
     
  113. Gup

    Gup Gup

    I guess this is all we're getting this time.
    So far we know that you can take it walking, fishing and camping.
    And it must have incredible ISO to be shooting handheld at loud noises by firelight...
    Who leaves a light on in their tent when they're not in it? Batteries are precious when in remote places. Maybe he's not alone? Where are those fishermen? Why is he blowing off his lenses in the dark with wood ash drifting everywhere?
     
  114. Gup

    Gup Gup

    P.net left the image behind...
    00c6l6-543282284.jpg
     
  115. Why is he blowing off his lenses in the dark with wood ash drifting everywhere?​
    Because there is wood ash drifting everywhere ;-) And he likely isn't taking a picture of the birds he heard but of whoever disturbed those birds. Maybe his girlfriend is approaching? Or, to go with the upcoming Halloween theme, a zombie? And isn't the whole point of FX to have high ISO capabilities - so that everyone can take images at candlelight - or in this case, the light of a fire? Maybe the light in the tent is on to provide some additional light for the exposure?
    I sure hope that whatever is revealed at the end is worth this amount of teasing...
    Quite surprising that not a single decent image of the camera has leaked so far - this close to the actual release...
     
  116. At this juncture there's no knowing whether its film based or digital, no refusing, or leaning, believing anything. Everyone has a belief system that draws the conclusion they want to believe in. One thing that keeps cropping up between the lines is the need for simplification, and perhaps that's where the sentiment for film cues in. Sherlock Holmes wouldn't figure this out, and don't get me wrong this is fun to a point. What's haunting me in the ad is the sound of the shutter. It sounds like my F-3.
     
  117. One thing that keeps cropping up between the lines is the need for simplification, and perhaps that's where the sentiment for film cues in.​
    Yes, about that... I owned a DSLR before I owned a film camera. After four years of Canon DSLR ownership and multiple film cameras, I switched to Nikon. D700, not a problem at all, worked out the basics pretty quickly. F5? Had to look up how to open it on the internet. And I still need a cheat sheet to change any of the custom settings. Last time I borrowed a Rolleiflex, I had to phone up about how to load film even though I'd read a description on it recently. I couldn't find how to change aperture on my Eos 620 in manual mode until I'd used up the last of my Kodak HIE in it. A friend picked up a Leica 3, and after a couple of days we'd managed to get some film into it. I've yet to pick up a 5x4 camera, but I've done a lot of reading to try to work out how to use one, and the metering still scares me.

    Simplification is a matter of opinion. Though I guess Nikon probably want to stop making the F6 (maybe the one guy they've got custom making them is due to retire), and they want to convert owners to a DSLR.

    I'm in favour of a lot of ergonomic fixes, and I'm not going to complain that different ergonomics might be bad - or even that (for a subset of uses) something that handles like an F4 would be bad. I'll be interested to see what turns up. But I'm not assuming it's going to make me want to drop my D800 - this is fine, I'm not in the target market for every Nikon product. The last time I said that was about the 1-series, and I did get a V1 eventually, so what do I know?

    Low light, portable, retro, no images leaking... Nikon are releasing a flash gun, aren't they?
     
  118. Everyone has a belief system that draws the conclusion they want to believe in. One thing that keeps cropping up between the lines is the need for simplification, and perhaps that's where the sentiment for film cues in.
    D700, not a problem at all, worked out the basics pretty quickly. F5? Had to look up how to open it on the internet. And I still need a cheat sheet... Simplification is a matter of opinion.
    Agree. But I still wonder why when I`m leaving home for a weekend I hesitate between the D700 and the F3 (say FM2, Leica M6)... if I really need the shot I take the DSLR, many times with a bit of... laziness? But if I want to go comfortable, I pleasantly take the film camera (which many times I think -sadly it`s not digital-, too).
    Now sometimes I`m even replacing the D700 for my iPhone...
     
  119. Quite surprising that not a single decent image of the camera has leaked so far - this close to the actual release...​
    How do we know anything about the release date?
    --Lannie
     
  120. I just hope that the "simplification" doesn't come at the expense of a high price. Simplification is certainly a matter of opinion - some consider "all manual" the epitome of it. Yes, it's simple - and then it isn't. Which some find out the instant they are still fiddling with the "all manual" when their subject has decided to walk away. And for the record, I shot "all manual" for two decades - and I have zero inclination to go back to those stone ages. Of "PSAM" I can easily live without the P and the M - the former more so than the latter though - sometimes M is the ticket (though exposure lock can make up for it under certain circumstances).
     
  121. How do we know anything about the release date?​
    I know nothing - just an "educated" guess. A video every 2 days, a total of (rumored) 6 videos (5 teasers and the sixth the official release) - so it doesn't take much to guess that the end of this week or the beginning of the next, the camera will be officially revealed - and thus "released". Doesn't do Nikon any good to whet everyone's appetite - and then don't serve lunch or dinner.
    And if this "release" is going to keep people from leaving Nikon for the greener Sony FX pastures - then the camera can't be delivered early enough.
     
  122. Even before I bought my D800E last year and my D3s this past summer, I was saying that the future belongs to Sony.
    Unfortunately, when one is in his late sixties, as I am, the future is now--and so I went with the brand that I think is the best now.
    Was I correct that the future belongs to Sony? I have no idea, but Sony is big and it always offers advanced electronics--and has for a long time. It, like Canon, has a lot of money for R&D. Yet, yet, Nikon keeps defying the odds and coming up with winners.
    I hope that the one we are waiting for is a winner.
    --Lannie
     
  123. At this juncture there's no knowing whether its film based or digital...​
    No way it's film... no way. Not in 2013. When was the last time any of the 35mm camera manufacturers released a film camera? They aren't making any more.
    I think their marketing is brilliant this time. Love it.
     
  124. Could this (rumored) "hybrid" viewfinder (that Nikon does file a patent for) be actually an interchangeable one? Somehow what I have seen so far reminds me of the F3 - so it isn't inconceivable that Nikon were to release a camera with interchangeable viewfinders - one being a normal pentaprism and one being an EVF - for a camera that allows to use both?
    One thing I am not very happy with in some of the current camera offerings is that one is going away from an integrated approach and back to where on has to attach this and that to make the camera function. Best example - Leica M 240 that needs a cheesy EVF attachement to become a "mirrorless". As if Fuji has demonstrated that there is another way.
     
  125. Well, Nikon's OVF/EVF viewfinder patent doesn't indicate anything about being interchangeable - in fact it doesn't need to since the patent itself relates to the placement of a LCD layer in the optical path that becomes active (opaque) when the mirror is up to block the light passing through the partially silvered mirror from lowering the contrast of the transparent electroluminescent display sandwiched in the light path.
    The patent shows the OVF and EVF nicely integrated, so one would wonder why you'd want to change it out. I guess you could change it to be a top view instead of rear or perhaps they will offer a "High Eye Point" version for a larger image.
    We'll find out in a few days.
     
  126. I'll suffer the retro looks if the features are beneficial to my photography.​
    My sentiments exactly. I just took the MD-4 off my F3HP and confirmed that the small grip on the F3 does nothing for me - the camera is as uncomfortable to hold as any of that time period. I had to mount motor drives on all my film cameras to be able to hold them comfortably.
    And I am trying to think of features that this new camera could have that would be beneficial to me. So far, I am drawing big blanks. Hybrid EVF/OVF - nice gimmick but I would need to see the actual implementation. Being able to shoot without the mirror slap when needed (and without having to hold the camera with outstretched arms) could be a nice feature, depending on how it's implemented; an EVF can have advantages under some circumstances.
    16MP (D4?) sensor - nice improvement but not something I feel I need right away.
    As already mentioned, retro look isn't going to sell it to me. Having a focus screen like in the old days might be attractive - but if I wanted, I could exchange the one in my D700.
     
  127. Does not anyone remember Nikon's announcement in 2006, that the F6 would NOT be their last film camera.
     
  128. Does not anyone remember Nikon's announcement in 2006, that the F6 would NOT be their last film camera.​
    But, film declined way faster than anybody expected since then.
     
  129. Not a film camera, no future, rather a digital Zen camera. Please Mr Nikon make it with a Monochrom option (cf D800/D800E). Silly? sure, but imho fun.
     
  130. Well, if the D800 was going to break the 'we need an AA filter' mantra, why not have a true B&W option with no Bayer filter, so a true monochrome FX sensor.....in a rangefinder. That's gotta be pretty retro!
     
  131. Film declined because digital inclined, hence, press Photography, and workflow. What is it about that fact that makes film use void, and a new refined film camera out of modern reach? Is it really a known, known that a newly refined film camera would put a company like Nikon at risk? I think not. I think its prudent for a company with the historical prowess of Nikon not to forget where it came from, and celebrate that through living it, do what you do, make camera's. But it has to be a smart camera. One that adhere's to the needs, wants, and requests from people like us, precisely here on this forum. A real ergonomic animal. Once achieved, a film version of that, and a digital version of that would be a focus on the dream. Why not?
     
  132. Once achieved, a film version of that, and a digital version of that would be a focus on the dream. Why not?​
    Come again? I have no idea whether you're saying it's going to be a film or a digital camera?
    .........or one of each, like a matched pair of pistols?

    Think Film...Think Kodak...Think Again!
     
  133. No camera maker in its right mind is going to bring a new film camera to market nowadays - not even Leica.
    I was naive enough to purchase a mint Nikon F5 in 2005 - thinking I would use digital alongside it. In reality, it turned out that the F5 hardly saw any use at all and I finally sold it for a fraction what I paid for it.
     
  134. Gup

    Gup Gup

    C.P.M. has an interesting link there. Dated less than a year ago, too. Remember that shot up there in the thread where the camera seemed to be in the grasp of an add-on 'half case'?
    BTW, those teaser pics , to me, look like nikon film camera's with a "digital Back" attached to it...:)
    More fuel on the fire...
     
  135. Was I correct that the future belongs to Sony?​
    I think the current weakness, both with the NEX and now the full frame E-mount cameras is the sparsity of the lenses (and at least for the NEX, their generally less than stellar performance). The new 35/2.8 for the A7/A7R costs $800 - I just paid as much for the Sigma 35/1.4 - that's two stops more I get for free!
    And at least for a while, those who purchase a A7/A7R will look at A-mount lenses - partially negating the size and weight advantage that made them chose the A7/A7R in the first place.
    Nikon faces a similar dilemma - bring a compact mirrorless and you need a new lens system. Bring another F-mount camera like the one in the teasers - and it will be large and heavy.
     
  136. I agree Dieter but we will all sit here and wait. Like other posts have said, they are doing a genius job of marketing and although it pisses me off to admit it, it is working and I am waiting with baited breath. NAS is alive and well.
    -Cheers
     
  137. Anyone who has ever taken a DSLR to pieces realises very quickly that a DSLR is very, very far away indeed from an FM2 with a sensor slapped across the film gate! The number of heat sinks, RF shields, processor-type chips and generally hi-techery is mind-boggling! Definite proof of Alien technology...:)
    The idea that you could just replace the back is fine, Nikon had a nice set of interchangeable backs for the F4 etc.....but the ergonomics of the digital Franken-camera are going to be dire....unless you want a camera that you simply cannot use quickly.
    Mind you, you've only got to look at an MF-23 'back' to see how far miniaturization has come.
    Now, a Nikon SP-D that somehow takes FX lenses. OK, I can live with that!
     
  138. Gup

    Gup Gup

    My excitement has definitely ebbed at the thought of a digital back.
    "It's in my hands again".​
    Well, I sold my manual film bodies or gave them to my kids so a digital back won't be in my future. I even sold my Hasselblad kit rather than invest in a digital back.
    Sitting here tapping my fingers...
     
  139. No way it will be a digital back so your excitement can go back up.
     
  140. All of these sneaker photos of the "new Nikon" look like those flying saucer pics. Or Yeti.
     
  141. This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.
    --Lannie
     
  142. Jack: According to a documentary (sort of) series I've just been watching (spoilers!), the Yeti is real, and a variant of a prehistoric polar bear. Sasquatch, on the other hand, seems to be mostly black bear, deer or racoon. I've not seen the Russian episode yet. This suggests that Nikon will release something that's very similar to something that already exists and that everyone thought had died out (which tallies with rumours about the Df). If Nikon have really put a flippy aperture follower tab on it, kudos to them and I'm almost interested - now please offer an F5/F6-style conversion service for some other cameras!

    The digital back idea is vaguely entertaining, but I agree that it would be an astonishingly hard way to achieve something that can be done more simply and cheaply with an existing DSLR.

    Does "Df" mean that Nikon has started numbering in hexadecimal? I'm kind of expecting the "Duh" to come at some point (which as all software engineers know is a 16-bit unsigned quantity containing the value 13) - but then I'm deeply disappointed that Olympus went too soon with the OMG.

    Oh, and I've finally bothered to watch the videos. I assume they are about a new camera, because all I really get from them is "please buy a D610", or words to that effect. I didn't get "new camera". Meh. Honestly I wasn't expecting another full frame camera yet, even ignoring the D610 respin - and if I was, it would have been a D5. If anything, by "big gap in the market", I'd expect a 100D competitor - but there's no indication of that. I guess we'll see what turns up on (allegedly) November 5th - other than fireworks in the UK, that is.
     
  143. This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.
    --Lannie​
    You got that right.
    I think we get another video tonight at 12am eastern in the US. Nice to be on the West coast as that's just 9pm. This episode he's supposed to be in the city.
     
  144. This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.​
    Yes. It's either going to be the s03 or Nikon are going to have decided to put 1-series sensors in all their DSLRs from now on.
     
  145. Lannie,
    You're cracking me up with, This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.
    Really, I was thinking the same thing, and actually this is a very serious notion. Live by the sword, die by the sword. If the series of teasers are cheap, setting this up, drawing this out, provocating, posturing, inducing, and we have a result of mediocrity...? Not only will we be embarrassed, We'll be pissed! Last night I had split secondly thought of the D-610 conclusion, and yes, that's not going to cut it.
    This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.
     
  146. We likely see the next installment of the teaser videos in a few hours (#4) - and quite frankly, this is already taking too long for me. It's now five days and if the rumor is to be believed, then the official announcement is November 5 - another seven days from now. Even though, if the teaser video release schedule is maintained, we will have seen the 5th and final (?) video by Thursday. Then what - Nikon is going to leave us hanging high and dry for another five days?
    This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.​
    Well, without knowing any specifics - unless on believes what the rumor sites are publishing - it's impossible to say at this point in time. But I am starting to feel that it can't possible that good that one has to wait what feels like a very long time to see what Nikon wants us to spend our money on.
    At this point I am mostly interested on how is Nikon going to place this new camera. Priced below the D610? Between the D610 and D800? Or above the D800? Everything seems possible at this stage - but I keep wondering what feature this camera will offer that isn't covered by the others already. Is retro-styling going to be its only claim to fame? And a hybrid finder? If so - then it's a niche camera; the more so, the higher its price tag. If it is a niche camera, then I am wondering why Nikon can't produce another niche camera that many are waiting for - the high-end DX D400?
     
  147. My totally uninformed guess....
    Full frame ( Since Sony has come out with a new one ), can use regular AF-D lenses, since we saw the guy putting one one the camera, by the firelight, and is probably retro and simplified, to " put it back in your hands ".
    I'm thinking rather FM3 looking, with a hybrid OVF/EVF that you can CHOSE to be one type or the other or both at will.
    The big question will be .... just how MUCH will they charge ? It can NOT be a real high dollar camera, since the pros use a lot of the features that the Pro grade cameras provide. It's the Leica like shooters and people who want to stay with a small, walk around portable kit that would be looking at this. The big "thing" about mirrorless is the smaller size and active view finders. I'm thinking along those lines.
     
  148. Imaginations run wild, and fleeting. Here's fleeting for you. A film camera with a monitor! Since the monitor is so important to people, and film seeing a surge, there's your fusion. Personally I've never seen the use of a monitor, but, hey, I'm a dinosaur, I look through the viewfinder, and see the image. Actually I don't even use the viewfinder! I see the image, use the camera to frame it, and go, why not?
    This darned thing better be really, really good after all this build up.
     
  149. Well, 9:00pm , here on the west coast.... no new video yet.
     
  150. #4 is here - right on time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tHbFx-Jcfps
    Announcement date confirmed - November 5.
    Can't say I like what can be seen so far.
    Needs to be priced similar to the Sony A7 and definitely below the D610 - my guess is $1599 or $1699. Wouldn't be surprised if Nikon tries to sell it for $2399 or $2499 though. Still no real information in those teasers that even hints at what "digital fusion" is all about - if it isn't just an invention by the rumor sites.
     
  151. Nikon and Apple have a great deal in common.
    -Cheers
     
  152. It up now.
    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
    Close-ups of the front of the 50/1.8. Looks like a built-in scalloped lens hood that slides out.
    Focusing ring looks like it has a rubber ribbed surface on it too. Looks pretty cool.
    More image at the end of the front of the body - shows the VF hump now and I think they'll be a lot more to see when the folks do the frame grabs.
     
  153. Whatever it is, it has an FX badge on the bottom right of the picture, which would be the bottom left of the camera held, and a Pentaprism reminiscent of a retro model, but now I'm thinking definatly digital, otherwise there wouldn't be an FX badge.
    Actually a second view looks to me that the Prism cover has a resemblance of the F-3HP. Check it out!
     
  154. Here is what I see when I bring the levels up and enlarge it.
    --Lannie
    00c73g-543304384.jpg
     
  155. And a tiny bit more. . .
    Could it be a square frame, 36 x 36mm?
    Look back to this post: Didier Lamy [​IMG], Oct 26, 2013; 04:58 a.m.
    --Lannie
    00c73n-543304684.jpg
     
  156. November 5 announcement, hmm? Maybe Guido Fawkes should be the spokesmodel.
     
  157. He's also manually focusing it... for a 50mm lens doing a landscape shot with nothing even near him....why? Can't believe it doesn't do AF! So a VF that makes MF easy? Some kinda Rangefinder split screen?
    Not sure you could/should use the FX format label and then change the format to 36mm x 36mm. Most lenses wouldn't cover it.
    You gotta say the timing is a bit drawn out if there really are only 6 vids...why bother with annoying people?
    Sure, tease them a bit, but don't leave them hanging!
     
  158. Here's a frame grab from the very end of video #4, enhanced with Photoshop's shadows/highlights tool.
    00c75K-543306984.jpg
     
  159. That's one monstrous-looking Penta-prism housing! And where's the NIKON logo?....even though it's in the shadow, you'd still see it. It was there in one of the other teaser pics.
    However, does anyone recollect how when expensive new-design sportscars are being moved around in the open, they have 'cover-panels' hiding the new shape of some flaired wheel arch or what-ever. There's something of that 'look' here.
    Perspective aside, it's body is as high as the filter ring size 52 or 55mm and the buttons look quite big......... it's more V1 sized.
     
  160. Okay, so it says "FX" and thus has to have a sensor that is 36x24mm (approximately)--and it has an HP viewfinder. Where are the knobs on top?
    There is a retro look to the high point viewfinder, and they are certainly nice to use, but overall there is nothing here that captures my imagination.
    (Kent, I don't even see that frame on the two videos I watched--one of them on the Nikon microsite, the other on Youtube.)
    --Lannie
     
  161. Weird place for the strap lugs.
    Four teaser videos and we still don't know what this camera is all about. It's FX and it will have a newly designed 50/1.8G lens. It does have a prism housing - which doesn't mean it actually does need to have a prism finder. It's larger than the just released Sony A7 (based on matching size of the flash hot shoe) and a little larger than a D90 (based on matching 50mm lens size (assuming the new one is similar to the current 50/1.8G)). It has a mysterious dial on its right front side - which could be used to control the aperture of a G lens (?). It has at least five buttons on the front (lens release, DOF, function, AF/MF, and one by the prism housing). And a port for accessories/flash. Quite obviously, no built-in flash. And a grip that looks narrower than the one on the Sony A7.
    So these videos are whetting appetites - for what exactly?
     
  162. I wonder why they've made a new 50mm 1.8G? What can this one do that an old one can't? If that's the case, it looks like legacy lens support is gone. How retro is that??
    The strap-lugs are effectively at the front, rather than the side, to try and balance a massively heavy 50mm f1.8 and stop it always going nose-down in the soup...:)
     
  163. I like the cut of your jib, mythical retro Nikon that I'll never be able
    to afford anyway. I dub thee Flying Dutchman.
     
  164. So, a 24 M FX sensor.
    The viewfinder is a combination of optical and electronical. If that would be the case then there would be no use of a silver ring adapter with 50 mm af-s lens. Only electronical VF then.
    The VF has contrast based focusing aid embedded on the image viewed. That is quite effective for manual focusing.
    This camera is not a speed camera.
    Old F-mount lenses go if not too old, with the mentioned adapter with a silver ring.
    Three new lenses are published together with the camera.
    And the price: as this has less technology and contains less relativey expensive high precision opto-mechanical components, then the price will be a little less than that of D610.
    - How could I be more wrong?
     
  165. I made this after video #3:
    [​IMG]
     
  166. From the #4 video you can see that the new 50/1.8 has a built-in scalloped lens hood. What appears to be a ribbed rubber focusing ring. From the previous video it has a M/AF switch and a chrome ring for grabbing onto while taking the lens on and off. Can't tell yet if there is an aperture ring or not (it would be black and hard to see in the video screen grabs).
    It may still have an aperture ring, but instead of a mechanical one it could be electronic - we'll see. It sure sounded like an aperture ring clicking in the first video, but it could have been another lens on the camera.
     
  167. No aperture ring on the lens. Not sure about the built-in hood - in a side view in video #4 it looks very much like the bayonet grove that most AF-S Nikkors have nowadays. But there seems to be some cuts in frontal view - so it's possible.
    At this point, what started as a clever advertising plot feels a bit long and drawn out without revealing anything but the frontal look of a camera piece by piece. There isn't enough information for me to make a decision of whether or not I want this - based on looks alone, the current answer is leaning towards no. The grip seems to be a small one which means the camera will handle like those old film camera bricks - in other words, abysmal. There would need to be some really redeeming features in the specs to make me want one. And, of course, the price needs to be "right" - the definition of which will naturally vary from individual to individual.
     
  168. Perhaps you are right - the more I look at it now the less I think it's a built-in lens hood and is the bayonet for a lens hood. I just looked at my 50/1.8G and it looks very close to the same if not identical.
    Drats!
     
  169. John,
    That 'Release Button?' is in a pretty unique position for any fitting I've ever seen on any camera....apart from the Pop-Up flash release. Which this camera doesn't appear to have! If it is a release, it's only usable by Lefties!
    What's the serrated cover behind the second P in photography? Looks like the old screw-in flash-sync thingy from my Nikon Coolpix 995!
    I think we're being had. It's a pastiche cobbled together from spare bits left over in the parts bin.
     
  170. Gup

    Gup Gup

    what started as a clever advertising plot feels a bit long and drawn out​
    I'm still thinking that this whole advertising campaign was the result of Nikon scrambling to get their ducks in a row after Olympus and Sony 'surprised' them with their own new releases. There is only so much consumer cash to go around and Nikon needs every sale they can muster this holiday season. I bet they're all tripping over themselves to get this thing ready for delivery.
     
  171. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Here is a different perspective.
    Are we being shown the same body each time?
    00c79I-543311684.jpg
     
  172. I`m very intrigued about the way they will improve the terrible ergonomics of the F3/FM2 type cameras.
    Right now the "front control dial" is surprising to me. The DoF preview buttons are not that comfortable on my D700. Also, I wonder about the AF-ON button...
    ---
    "Are we being shown the same body each time?"
    I think so. The current pics (#4 video) have the top dials darkened... same as the viewfinder in the previous video, but now we can guess there are at least two control wheels on it in the right side of the top panel.
    In your pic, looks like there is also a third control turret or whatever at left , at usual.
     
  173. Good question, Gup. I commend your paranoia.

    I'm assuming that the thing on the side of the prism is a PC sync socket. The thing hidden behind what looks like a control from a Pentax Q is presumably a 10-pin connector, unless it's some other kind of QR connector - admittedly on an F3 that's the PC sync. If that "front control dial" really is what it says, it feels like an ergonomically awful place for it - if not dissimilar to the P7800. The nearest match I can think of is the manual focus control on a Contax G2.

    Jose: But surely the ergonomics of the F3 were perfect! (Read all forum posts wearing rose-tinted glasses.)
     
  174. What I've labelled as a "release button" looks silver and is similar to the mirror up lock lever+silver button on some SLRs. So perhaps it's the release button for an interchangeable viewfinder or the mirror lock-up button (with the black lever not visible) for true mirror lock up (non-electrical).
    Having a non-electrical mirror lock-up would be fantastic. Lock it up and use the image sensor + EVF for focusing and less noisy operation. Plus being non-electrical it would certainly save power . . . perhaps the next video we'll get more info on that mystery button.
    Certainly there is a PC sync screw on cover on the right, and the large circular thing on the left side is too big for a 10-pin connection and is likely a control wheel/dial. I bet the 10-pin connection is on the top or side (or hidden from view up to now).
     
  175. Landrum, at the end of video #4 the image of the camera fades in and then out again very quickly just before the words "Pure Photography" appear.
     
  176. The only explanation I can come up with for that front control dial is that it will control the aperture of G lenses - but where is that aperture value displayed? Only in the viewfinder? Or on the back LCD? Or a little window by the dial? I don't think the camera will have a top-mounted LCD like the conventional higher-end Nikon DSLs. Seems to me Nikon is just moving things around in order to accomplish that retro look - and in the process, making the camera an ergonomic nightmare. I think I have seen enough of it already...
     
  177. C'mon guys lets not draw conclusions on such limited information. Yes, sentiments of optimism, I'm hoping for the best. If its a 24MP camera with retro styling, and doesn't offer the best ergonomics has to offer, along with build quality, a weather proofing, then its another black eye for Nikon, but if this mystery camera turns out to bring power, simplicity, and the wanting to have this camera with you at all times, then we've got something here. If the F3 like prism houses an EV finder, it better be as sharp as the focusing screens in DSLRs, FSLRs. I have gotten of the film notion on this issue, it is an FX camera, as we can clearly see in the #4 low key image at the end. Wow, for Nikon to go through this dog, and pony show like this for 2 weeks is bold, really BOLD. I hope they get it right.
     
  178. "Wow, for Nikon to go through this dog, and pony show like this for 2 weeks is bold, really BOLD."​
    I think you misspelled trolling.
    "Wow, for Nikon to go through this dog, and pony show like this for 2 weeks is bold, really TROLLING."​
    Fixed.
    Great Nikon ad campaign, or greatest Nikon ad campaign? It has the feel of a web savvy hipster marketing team. No matter what the actual product turns out to be, I'm impressed that Nikon finally grokked the contemporary market. Ya buncha teases, ya.
     
  179. I wonder if there might be a mini top LCD panel with just the basics that cannot be shown immediately from the top dials. Since it's not a small camera there may be some room on the top for such a thing.
     
  180. pge

    pge

    No screens or panels of any kind. S, A, M, iso, shutter speed by dial, viewfinder is optical with mirror down or electronic with mirror up, the only display is in the viewfinder. 50% of us are thrilled, 50% think Nikon made their biggest mistake in the history of the company.
    These are my predictions.
     
  181. And maybe 5-10% of those who are thrilled with this type of hypothetical camera will actually buy it. I like the idea of such a camera. But, as with the V1, there's a price point cutoff between idealism and how much retro chic I'm willing to put up with at a premium price. At the original price, the V1 was silly. At last December's $300 blowout discount it was the best freaking bargain in history for a high end P&S digicam.
    By my illogical logic, which probably ain't much different from many folks who are easily hypnotized by retro chic, this Flying Dutchman Nikon DF would be just silly at over $3,000 and will sell only to hardcore enthusiasts; very appealing to the more pragmatic photographers who appreciate retro chic at closer to $2,000; and will fly off the shelves at anything under $2,000.
    But that's assuming the DF has a solid design, without the goofy mistakes of the original Nikon J1 and V1, which undermined an otherwise very appealing bridge type camera. If it's hindered by any serious design flaws it'll be impossible to compete against the D610 at full MSRP.
    At any rate, this won't be like the 2005 Nikon SP reissue limited edition. I doubt Nikon would have bothered with these teasers and hype if they planned only a limited edition of 2,000 or so "DF" bodies.
     
  182. Not being able to see the selected aperture when using a G lens without looking through the viewfinder would qualify as one of those goofy mistakes IMO. But it works for the consumer bodies too - but then this Flying Dutchman better comes with a significantly below $2,000 price tag.
     
  183. Seen the teaser #4 and how some have guessed how large it might be. It's about a D600 size - that means it's the same as a modern camera with a bit of retro hybrid flavour. I took my FM2N out and it's so much smaller. For myself I may have gotten this instead of the D600 if I had not got yet but now since I have it.. but for travelling this retro thing isn't compact. I could shoot film or with a Coolpix A.
     
  184. pge

    pge

    Shun, I don't want to cause any trouble but you have been quite quiet. 6 days ago, about 100 comments up in this discussion, you said that you had no insider information. I am not questioning the truth of that at that time. But some might interpret your silence since then as an indication that you now have some insider info.
    Just whisper it here, I am sure Nikon won't notice ; )
     
  185. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Phil, I don't like speculations. See below.
    Great Nikon ad campaign, or greatest Nikon ad campaign? It has the feel of a web savvy hipster marketing team. No matter what the actual product turns out to be, I'm impressed that Nikon finally grokked the contemporary market. Ya buncha teases, ya.​
    The longer the build up and the higher the expections, the only possible outcome is a bigger let down. There are so many contradicting expectations such that regardless of what Nikon finally introduces, there will be a lot of disappointment.
    50% of us are thrilled, 50% think Nikon made their biggest mistake in the history of the company.​
    All indications point to some niche retro camera. Assuming that is indeed the case, I think your percentages are way way overly optimistic. Nikon will be lucky if 10% of this so called "us" (using that term very loosely) are thrilled. Even though it is priced to below $2000, I seriously doubt that they will fly off the shelf as Lex expects. If I have $2000 for an FX body, I would get a D610, which most likely will have some nice discounts after the US Thanksgiving, which is on November 28 this year.
    When is the next teaser due?
     
  186. pge

    pge

    When is the next teaser due?​
    Tonight a midnight.
     
  187. There are so many contradicting expectations such that regardless of what Nikon finally introduces, there will be a lot of disappointment.​
    My sentiments exactly. At this point I only want to find out about the specs and the price.
    Tonight a midnight.​
    EDT.
     
  188. Gup

    Gup Gup

    I'm still interested, though not as much as when the first teaser was released. It is getting a bit old now. Perhaps Nikon should have been a bit more forthcoming so only those really interested would still be in the conversation. That would save some disappointment for that supposed '50%'.
    Shun, I'm grateful you let us play ;)
    I really miss the OT forum!
     
  189. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Just one quick reminder: it is still against photo.net policy to post images that you didn't capture yourself to the forums since that is a clear copyright violation. Occasionally we make some exceptions such that I have no choice but to post Nikon-supplied images for any new products, as nobody else has those images. When I review a product, I only use images I capture myself of those products.
    However, some images captured from the teaser videos are necessary as an integral part of this discussion, so we allow them here. Clearly, Nikon wants the publicity and I am sure they don't mind. But the general rule hasn't changed.
    I agree, the teaser campaign has gotten a little too long. Obviously I haven't followed the videos that much. I am not into retro stuffs.
     
  190. My only criticism of the videos is that there's no real build or arc. They're all about as vague as the first. Most short video teasers for innovative new products have more of an arc of development, building toward the release.
    But this is still such an unusual step for Nikon I'm inclined to approve anyway. I've said for years that Nikon seems to have no real grasp on pop culture marketing. But this campaign for the mythical retro Flying Dutchman whatchamacallit is pretty darned radical by Nikon standards.
     
  191. Shun writes
    I agree, the teaser campaign has gotten a little too long. Obviously I haven't followed the videos that much. I am not into retro stuffs.​
    I suspect virtually all the consumers of Nikon products are totally unaware of the "campaign" and that it's only geared towards nerdy fanboys like us...
    That number might be a few hundred or thousand... seriously...
     
  192. I suspect virtually all the consumers of Nikon products are totally unaware of the "campaign" and that it's only geared towards nerdy fanboys like us​
    You are very likely correct in that assumption - since I hardly ever look at Nikon's website, I would have missed this campaign if wouldn't follow the Nikon rumors site. And I am sure that if I hadn't started this thread, someone else would have. Sadly, Nikon doesn't pay me a dime for promoting their ad campaign ;-(
     
  193. Gup

    Gup Gup

    since I hardly ever look at Nikon's website, I would have missed this campaign if wouldn't follow the Nikon rumors site.​
    Dieter, I would have missed this campaign if I didn't follow Photo.net's Nikon forum ;)
     
  194. If you folks were unaware of Nikon's DF campaign you just have not been wasting enough time on the internet!
    I think Nikon knows it's not worth the $$ to have a large advertising campaign on TV, etc. when the target audience is tuned to the internet and places like NR and DPR will spread the word far and wide to the targeted audience (advanced enthusiasts and pros).
     
  195. This is what I can get from the video so far - maybe someone has done better
    Looks like a digital FM3 but what is that lever to the left of the lens?
    [​IMG]
     
  196. Oh man you are so behind the curve on this!
    Over at NR they have analyzed the image. Here is my own version, but ignore the bit about the built-in scalloped hood:
    [​IMG]
    Which explains most of it. The biggest mystery is the silver button on the lower right side of the viewfinder - does it lock the mirror up, does it allow the VF to be removed, or ??
     
  197. Hahaha ;)
    OK, well at least I added in the missing prism and hot shoe LOL
     
  198. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Teaser threads are all over DPReview's forums and even DPReview's news area. Photo.net's newsletter has a reference to it; not to mention the various rumor sites. If you read the web and are interested in photography, it would be hard to miss that.
     
  199. Yes, tonight we should get a much more detailed look at the camera - only two more teasers to go and I suspect the last teaser won't show everything - gotta leave something for the announcement day.
     
  200. Specs, anyone?
    How it looks doesn't tell me anything that I really want to know.
    (I just noticed that this is the 200th post, and this thread has been going since October 24.)
    --Lannie
     
  201. Specs? Just Google "Nikon DF" and you will find what you need. As were are not allowed to post links to that silly site that shall remain nameless.
     
  202. All that I am finding is this on a site whose reliability I cannot verify. I will offer the summary rather than the full list of specs, since this seems to go to the core of it:
    With such an impressive sensor and retro style lightweight body, you might be wondering who this camera is aimed for. While the Nikon DF will be usable for pretty much any kind of photography, the fact that it has a low-noise 16 MP sensor means that it will be ideal for any kind of low-light photography. This includes wedding, event, documentary, travel, street and many other types of photography. And although it is not particularly a sports and wildlife camera due to its MultiCAM 4800FX autofocus system used on the D610 (compared to the 51-point AF system used on the D4), I am sure it will do quite well for those needs as well, as demonstrated in my Nikon D610 review. The only market the Nikon DF does not target is landscape, architecture and studio photography – for those needs the Nikon D800/D800E will still remain as the primary choice, thanks to the high-resolution 36 MP sensor.
    In short, the Nikon DF will appeal to a huge market of photographers that need the best image quality (especially in low-light conditions), minus the bulk and weight of a pro-level DSLR. And if priced right, the Nikon DF will be a wedding photographer’s dream come true. People photographers that have been waiting for the Nikon D700 replacement – the Nikon DF is basically it.​
    If this should turn out to be true, it would seem to give the same image quality and low-light capability of the D4 without the better auto-focus, weather-sealing, etc.--and I would presume without the high FPS number as the D4.
    If it should turn out to be true. . .
    --Lannie
     
  203. Lannie - there is NO place that is reliable for information that is rumored for an un-announced camera, but from the site that shall Nameless Remain:
    • The new camera will be called Nikon DF which stand for "Digital Fusion"
    • Nikon FM2 like design, but with a larger pentaprism
    • Most likely be available in two colors - all black and silver/black (a.k.a. as Panda version)
    • Standard Nikon F-mount
    • Pentaprism viewfinder (meaning the camera will not be mirrorless)
    • 16.2MP 36x23,9 full frame sensor (same as in the D4?)
    • The AF system of the Nikon DF will be most likely the same as in the D610 with 39 points
    • SD memory card
    • 2016-pixel RGB image sensor
    • 9-cell framing grid display
    • 3D color matrix metering II
    • Native ISO range: 100-12,800 (incl. ISO 50 and ISO 102,400)
    • 5.5 fps for up to 100 shots
    • 3.2" LCD screen
    • Expeed 3 processor
    • Battery:EN-EL14
    • Dimensions: 143.5 x 110 x 66.5mm
    • Weight: 765g
    • No video recording capabilities
    • The camera will meter even with non-AI lenses down to full aperture
    • The camera will ship with a new special edition Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G lens to match the look/design of the body
    • The camera will have physical controls and excellent build quality (which explains the 765g weight)
    • Nikon calls it a "hybrid" camera - not sure what exactly they mean with that
    • The Nikon DF will have settings for 1:1, 3:2 and 16:9 aspect ratios
    • The announcement will be on November 5th right on time for Le Salon de la Photo show that will take place in Paris (November 7-11, 2013)
    That's as good as it gets for now. Lots of mysteries to solve for sure even with the above non-confirmed specs.
     
  204. Thank you, John. If that turns out to be correct, it could be a poor man's D4, in the same way that the D700 was the poor man's D3--but poor is relative, and so now comes the next big question:

    PRICE POINT??
    Some people are saying the high teens, but I am guessing somewhat higher--if these specs are correct.
    As one who shoots the D3s a lot at night, I have to say that sometimes a few more pixels could be handy--and I frankly do not typically need the high frame rate of the D3s or the D4.
    So, if these specs are correct, count me among the highly interested. If one is not a low light shooter, on the other hand, then perhaps the D610 would be better--again, IF these specs should turn out to be accurate.
    --Lannie
     
  205. Most of these specs are mere speculation and wishful thinking at this point - the only thing that can be confirmed is that the camera looks retro, has an F-mount, and comes with a newly styled 50/1.8G AF-S lens. Nikon hasn't made any mentioning of which sensor, which AF system, called it a "hybrid", given a weight or dimension (though one can guess based on the images provided in the video), or even the name of the camera.
    I really wished John hadn't posted those "specs" here as I am afraid that Shun will lock this thread down now - this site isn't meant to be used to spread rumors.
     
  206. Thanks, Dieter. So, based on the videos released by Nikon, we can only confirm what it looks like, but nothing else--but that is not interesting to me!
    I have to say that there is a certain freedom in having a good low light camera, and so I personally hope that the specs are accurate--rumor though they may be at this point.
    Of course, everyone is reading into this thing what they want by way of specs. . . .
    --Lannie
     
  207. Lannie, I am not sure how advertising is supposed to work - I assume that these videos are supposed to get you wildly excited about this new camera that looks like something from the past and that you apparently can use to take pictures of landscape, fishermen, and cityscape. And of something that is only lit by a camp fire and lit tent. You might need to spot a three-day beard in order to buy one - but that's just a speculation on my part ;-)
    Nikon may settle for us all talking about it - and a few of us hopefully buying one (once we learned what's special about it). Maybe they also like a few of us to rethink the putting orders in for the new Sony full frame cameras or the OM-D E-M1 (the name alone scare me off already; can we have some more alphabet soup please!)
    Of course, there is the off chance that Nikon hasn't actually finalized the specs yet and uses the internet chatter to sort through the various options - but I wouldn't count on it ;-)
     
  208. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Five more sleeps. Starting to fatigue. Getting tired now. Yawning...
     
  209. That number might be a few hundred or thousand... seriously...​
    Number of views for the 4 teaser videos on YouTube
    #1: 247,268
    #2: 113,069
    #3: 80,056
    #4: 16,804
    If I was a marketing guy, I wouldn't be happy with that drop in views...
     
  210. I really wished John hadn't posted those "specs" here as I am afraid that Shun will lock this thread down now - this site isn't meant to be used to spread rumors.​
    Sorry, well, I can no longer edit it. Shun can delete it if he wants.
    Not sure where the line is to cross to not spread rumors. So if I talk about it having 16MP in a paragraph in a post is that different than listing it in a bulleted list? I didn't link to anything either. Much of this thread is speculation and hence is spreading rumors.
     
  211. Don't worry about it. If all rumors threads were as civil and humorous as this one there wouldn't be any problems.
    The main reasons the rumors threads were discouraged was because of spamming by the first rumors sites (which they don't do anymore - they're essentially mainstream now), and because a handful of folks who enjoyed were addicted to rumors threads behaved like bratty kids loaded up on too much sugar and not enough sleep. I don't want to name names but if you dig around the mirrorless forum you'll find remnants of threads with people cussing at and flaming each other over silly rumors. Hey, I like toys as much as the next kid, but not enough to toss a bug-eyed hissy fit over it.
     
  212. Well, #5 is up.
    If you want dials and switches this camera has'em. Also has a dedicated AF-On and a AF/AE lock button and a rear thumb dial. Looks like it has all the amenities except no built-in flash. Viewfinder looks quite large from the side - so it should be good.

    Since is has a dedicated AF-On button would this place it ABOVE the D600/D610 in the lineup and hence price?
     
  213. It also appears to have:
    - Round rear viewfinder
    - LCD (of course, but some thought it might not)
    - Shutter speed dial with the S, Cl, Ch, Q, etc. switch underneath that
    - One more dial on the other side of the VF hump that is likely the ISO + EC settings
    - Shutter button plus something else next to the shutter speed button (probably the on/off?)
    - No aperture ring on the 50/1.8G
    - Still has that mystery button above the lens release and just below and to the side of the VF. Who knows what that is, though I know what I want it to be.
    - The back definitely looks more sophisticated than the D610 - much more like the D800.
    I think this is going to be pricey.
     
  214. but not enough to toss a bug-eyed hissy fit over it.​
    Lex, I didn't know till this here minute that you were from the Sow-th, too.
    Yep, this has been a rather upscale rumor thread. Maybe that's because the videos come from a rather upscale rumor site of sorts.
    I am just left wondering how Nikon plans to keep the suspense going much longer without giving us something more substantive to chew on.
    "Good things take time. They're worth the wait." Translation: "Don't go buyin' no Sony stuff just yet."
    --Lannie
     
  215. The next video seems to reveal a lot, but still many mysteries remain.
     
  216. Certainly retro with a modern twist. What I am not sure of is why they seem to highlight the sound of the shutter. My " simpler is better " mind likes the look. The ideas posted that it will not be cheap, is getting me down. I must guess, however, that they would not go to all THIS trouble for a low end priced camera.
    I'm afraid I may end up saying, " That is really AWESOME, but I will never be able to afford one ! ". Maybe at KEH 5 years from now, on the used shelf.
     
  217. The positive click sound of the shutter speed dial is a nice touch. And it appears to have a profile reminiscent of the F3HP.
    There's a market for this. It's somewhere between the Leica M9 and the Sony RX1.
     
  218. Holy cow! It's November.
    John, I'm thinking a ways down the road for myself, too. This is beginning to look pretty sophisticated, and they are going to have to pay for the advertising campaign, too. There's no way that I expect this one to come in at bargain basement prices.
    somewhere between the Leica M9 and the Sony RX1​
    Definitely out of my league, Lex.
    --Lannie
     
  219. 1/4000s fastest shutter speed - seems this camera uses the same innards as the D610. A cryptic 1/3 STEP setting on the shutter speed dial - I assume setting it will enable shutter speed selection via the command dial in the back. FPS selection with the dial under the shutter speed dial. Not sure what the far right (when viewed from the back) dial is - I assume it's exposure compensation. Dial to the left of the prism finder - ISO? WB only in the menu?
    No built-in flash.
    Why the re-designed 50mm lens? And why does it appear that he is always focusing manually?
    At least they showed a lot more in #5 then I had expected.
     
  220. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Here's the best two glimpses so far.
    (I couldn't sleep after all).
    00c7PK-543337584.jpg
     
  221. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Rumour no more.
    00c7PL-543337684.jpg
     
  222. Shutter speeds:
    D4 1/8000 sec
    D800 1/18000 sec
    D610 1/4,000 sec
    DF (?) 1/4,000 sec
    Is the maximum shutter speed of 1/4000 sec any indication of where the price is likely to be? That is, if it resembles the D610 more than the D800 on that feature (among others), would it make sense to ask much over $2,000, if that?
    Is it safe to assume that the HP viewfinder is purely optical (consistent with the retro design)?
    --Lannie
     
  223. Guess that this cam is "created"in celebration of 100 years Nikon company ...?
    Looking at the rumoured specs i thing it will be priced somwhere between the D800 and the D4.
     
  224. I think this retro style is going to be cost a premium and some of those customers may just eventually buy it. The traditional shutter dial. Seems like the top image shows only AF and M on the side selector. Round VF. AF-ON and AF/AE-L. I think it is going to cost more than the D800. $4,000 my wild guess .... maybe with that special silver ring lens included as a sweetner.
     
  225. Ray, for that kinda $$$, I'd expect to get a 'Special Edition' 24 f1.8, 50 f1.8 and 85 f1.8.
    Maybe that's the plan? After-all, he's doing a lot of landscape shots, and a 50mm, even on FX, is a bit narrow.
    And that would be a collector's, as-well as a user's, fun box for Christmas!
     
  226. Me too.. I am excited about these pre-announcements!
    The retro looks of the '80's are glamourous.
    A big bright MF oriented viewfinder is most welcome - the D800 is hard work.
    A high resolution sensor is also most welcome - if this camera is not to be out-dated soon - especially considering the fears of a stiff price.. I did get addicted to the 36Mpx images of the D800.
    If the camera would indeed be a retro-beautiful, simple (no video), robust, MF-friendly, 16Mpx camera, I would find a starting price of 2200 euro reasonable - going down towards 1600 in a year or so.
     
  227. Another 36-mp camera? Not right now, I don't think. The rumored 16-mp sensor seems more likely.
    For landscapes? A lot of the shots were made in poor light, everywhere from the city to the countryside. A versatile, all-around camera that is easy to carry around and fun to use with AF and MF lenses would be my guess.
    I don't see it being aimed primarily at collectors. All those external controls and that HP VF point toward a camera that is likely to be used--a lot.
    I still see a consumer grade D4 as the most optimal for myself--but with the capacity for various focusing screens for MF. That is what I would like to see--along with AF capacity when wanted or needed.
    That is, I am seeing more of a concession toward the low-light, hand-held end of the spectrum here, not a big, bulky landscape camera. The D800 and D800E are holding down that end of the market pretty well right now.
    "Pure photography"? I guess that it means whatever one wants it to mean. What does it mean for Nikon?
    --Lannie
     
  228. Just because the max setting on a physical shutter speed selector is 1/4000 does not mean the max shutter speed isn't 1/8000. It may be that you need to be in aperture priority mode to get greater than 1/4000 sec. I don't shoot in S mode much with my D700, but I don't ever "select" 1/8000 as a shutter speed when I do. When I shoot near 1/8000, it's because I'm using a fast lens wide open in bright light in A mode. I'm not a pro though.
     
  229. I don't quite get the low-end, low-light version of a D4 idea. The D3S has better High ISO....and the D4 is primarily an action camera in the dark...it's DR is pretty old by now too, even the D7000 was better.!
    There is no 'action' intended with this camera....quite the opposite idea is portrayed by the vids. In-fact I don't think he shot anything that moved....maybe the fishermen, maybe?
    It's a retro 24 mpix D800E with dials and without video, and maybe interchangable VFs......waist-level anyone?
     
  230. Lex, in his post about the behaviour on rumour sites ( greetings, Nikon & Fuji Rumors) was sadly spot on. Sugared-up is an understatement, ignorant, mean-spirited, cowardly and stupid are closer to the mark. I stay away now. You guys, on the other hand, are much more even handed and thoughtful, even in disagreement. Me? I'd love a stripped down, back-to-basics dslr. I've mostly been using Fuji X series gear this last year and have grown to love the "old fashionedness" of these models, not to mention the great IQ. I have also bonded with these units in a way I just didn't expect, short of buying a Leica RF. (Impossible at those prices). And I'm not alone there clearly. Now that Nikon look to be doing something similar I look forward to seeing how it turns out. Naturally some guys will be peeved because Nikon didn't make it specifically for THEM. Get over it, there are those of us who have been waiting for something like this for years, so cut us some slack please! The D4, D3X and D800 were not for me but I was a good boy and didn't complain ;-) Trouble is every time a company does something different they get bagged...and when they DON"T do something different they still get bagged! There's no pleasing some people...keep up that civil spirit and on release day we'll all meet up at Lex's palatial home in Beverley Hills and have a lemonade together..love from Downunder ;-)
     
  231. From what I've seen so far, I'm interested, but unlikely to buy. The UI changes in the F5 vintage were there for a reason - the way most DSLRs are designed is more general-purpose and flexible than the previous approaches. For select types of photography, the older style works well, and I can understand why some people like it (and, incidentally, I'd like an X100s and am quite fond of my Bessa R), but I wouldn't want it to be my only camera. But we'll all have a better idea on, apparently officially, the 5th, so I may be raising unreasonable objections. Still, banging the same old drum, I wish if Nikon were going to mess with their interface they'd just move the ISO and AF mode select buttons to the right side of the camera. I certainly hope that, however popular whatever's going to be released might be, they don't roll out this interface across the whole camera range.

    The cynic in me says he's manual focussing because he wants an AF position not covered by the D610's AF sensor... (The cynic also says that Nikon's video on the 5th is going to say "just kidding!" and they'll release a compact.)
     
  232. pge

    pge

    No screens or panels of any kind...
    These are my predictions.​
    Hmmm, seems like I blew this one.
     
  233. Looks like it's grown to be physically larger than merely a digital FM.
     
  234. Phil: People have tried digital cameras with no screens, generally at the extreme budget end of the market. They really don't sell - live review is a killer feature for digital cameras, and screens aren't that expensive any more. Removing it would do more harm than good. (As would some of the other design changes, in general, but missing the LCD won't actually make things significantly better for many people. Y can always not use it, and even people who usually don't check their images in the field have occasional reason to do so.)

    Making a digital camera as thin as a film SLR is tricky - there's too much going on behind the focal plane (especially with a screen), so I doubt the DSLR will get to the size of the smaller 35mm options any time soon. Of course, you don't need film cannister space, so there can be less to the left of the sensor.
     
  235. What is the blurred white text? Looks like there is more letters than in "Nikon". However Nikon does appear on the final photo (see insert).

    Also the viewfinder looks bigger than on a F3HP, imho there is more than just glass.
    00c7S7-543344984.jpg
     
  236. Didier: I got the impression that the rest of the camera is small, which is making the prism look big. It does look like there may be no flash, though if Nikon have made the whole thing transparent to infrared and included a robust remote CLS trigger I won't criticize them for it. Allowing for the LCD and enhanced metering, I'd not expect the prism to be as small as on a much older camera (not that I have an F3 to compare with); on the other hand, it may just look taller because it's more tapered. Anyone know whether Nikon are still making their prism housings out of titanium, like the F5's?
     
  237. actually, the F3 is much smaller than the Df, and looking at both cameras together, both viewfinders look quite similar.
    00c7UA-543350284.jpg
     
  238. I wouldn't say its much smaller, if scale is our friend in this case. I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.
     
  239. I've just got to laugh at all you guys!
    239+ responses to a rumor :)
    When it is announced, no matter what specs it has, half of you are going to love it and half are going to be really disappointed..
    Just change and go with Sony! ::))
     
  240. Well, it is on the Nikon website, Diane, and so it is no longer a rumor--hasn't been since these videos were released:
    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/

    http://www.nikonusa.com/nikon-video/nHbpDtaNRha/index.html
    In fact, this thread (which started on October 24) started only AFTER Nikon confirmed that it was NOT a rumor.
    Most posters here have been concerned not to propagate rumors, except to clarify what is known and what is speculation.
    At this point, we still don't know the specs, but we do know from the Nikon videos what it looks like.
    --Lannie
     
  241. It's a retro 24 mpix D800E with dials and without video, and maybe interchangable VFs.​
    Mike, is that a prediction or simply what you are hoping that it might be?
    I suppose that 24 mp might be a reasonable compromise between 16 and 36 mp. I sort of lean toward the 16 mp idea, but only in line with what I would want: a very good low-light, high ISO camera. I have the D800E and the D3s--the latter of which only has 12 mp. Something in between would be nice, in my opinion.
    Given that the D610 with 24 mp was just announced, I still think that it could be a low-light camera, and for that the 16 mp of the D4 comes to mind--since there is not, at present, a consumer grade version of the D4. That's just my preference, of course. I'm not really making a prediction, just expressing a preference, since I love the D3s but sometimes want just a few more megapixels--but not so many as to interfere with the low-light, high ISO capabilities.
    I can't quite see the point of a retro D610. I shoot landscapes and street and everything in between, but I do love the opportunities that I find when shooting the 12-mp D3s. High numbers of megapixels simply are not compatible with the very best low-light performance, and I want a camera that I can shoot in just about any light. Obviously, it is not going to have the AF and the FPS performance of the D4, but it might conceivably have the low-light, high ISO capabilities. Again, that is simply my preference: keep it simple, keep it fast (in every sense), and make it as versatile as possible. Post-processing the files from the D800E can be a pain.
    I think that more megapixels are not what most of us need. Look at Canon--topping off with about 22 mp in the 5D III, if I am not mistaken. Anything above 16 mp is simply not needed for most shots or most prints, in my opinion.
    Is there a new sensor out there that could be used, something with about 20 megapixels?
    All of this is mere speculation on my part. (Is speculation the same as rumor?)
    --Lannie
     
  242. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Well, it is on the Nikon website, Diane, and so it is no longer a rumor--hasn't been since these videos were released:
    http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/purephotography/
    Actually, a large part of this thread is still rumors. Again, I haven't paid that much attention to the teaser videos on the Nikon web site, but clearly Nikon is planning to introduce some new FX body or bodies on November 5. Apparently some of the controls are retro style similar to those on the FM/FE, F3 and F4??
    However, a lot of the details are still rumors. But then, November 5 is merely 4 days away.
     
  243. Kinda looks like a cross b/w an F#, F100 and F6
    Looking forward to this new camera.
    00c7Wt-543355584.jpg
     
  244. An enthusiast's camera - to get the job done there are the D4 and D800, the common person has the D3200. A poor man's FX is the D610 and there is the D7100. But a true enthusiast with a love of retro would just shoot film and put this $2,000 or $300o into film and lab costs per product cycle (defined by each own).
     
  245. to get the job done there are the D4 and D800, the common person has the D3200​
    The common man who could not afford the D3 could in many instances afford the D700.
    The common man who cannot afford the D4 may be able to afford a prosumer version, analogous to the D700.
    THAT is the hole in Nikon's line-up: no PROSUMER VERSION OF THE D4.
    I am hoping for it, retro or not.
    That would be my concept of "pure photography" in a discounted package. One can hope. . . .
    --Lannie
     
  246. You know, if they don't price it high, they could sell quite a few of them, I think. Sometimes, I just want to shoot and not have to remember where in the menu levels something basic is hiding. Yes, I know. If I read the manual enough and got copy of the D7000 explained book, I could find all the bits and bobs quickly.
    What I would HOPE this camera offers is simple controls, when that is all you need, and some of the new features of DSLRs in the menus when you want them. It's YOUR choice, so you don't need to think like the Nikon engineer to get a simple job done.
     
  247. Looking at the pictures of it, by the button layout, there is no way that this camera is going to be priced below the D610.
    Probably closer to or even above the D800. If many people are like me, the autofocus system will matter a lot in whether
    this will sell. I used a friend's D600 briefly, and while it was fast enough, I found it highly annoying that the thirty-
    something AF points were all pretty much at the same place. I just hope they don't take an otherwise high-end camera
    and cripple it with such an AF system. If that is the case, I can see why our man in the videos seems to be focusing
    manually all the time. When shooting portraits with large aperture lenses, I find it critical to be able to select an AF point
    that is directly over the subject's eye so I do not have to recompose and shift the plane of focus. I just couldn't seem to
    do that with the D600.

    BTW, in that picture where you can see the camera from the side, isn't the lens cap on?
     
  248. I've been pondering this "Digital Fusion" moniker supposedly assigned to the "DF" label (I still say it's Dutchman, Flying, until it arrives in port), and what it might represent.
    The prism appears to be relatively large, even by FX standards. I'm wondering whether it's a hybrid optical/EVF finder, and whether it includes the pre-AF focusing aids such as the familiar split image and microprism collar. The D700 prompted a small aftermarket demand for such manual focusing aids. It'd be clever of Nikon to anticipate that need.
     
  249. With the AF-ON and round viewfinder it would be more than the D610 IMO. This Df sounds pro, the D610 less so. I somehow have some doubts if this will be the new D700 replacement. On one side it's a retro as in a "pure" camera and then one wants a great viewfinder which looks like it has but they also want fast responsive dynamic AF system and a fast fps ..... That's like a F100 and a manual focus body together.
     
  250. Lannie, it's a hopeful prediction! However, I'm still not sure what's being FUSED here?
    Unless we're all being taken for a real ride, it isn't what I currently want which would be a D700 replacement.... although I suppose that's a D4, which I can't justify the cost.
    I still wonder how much the D700 stole from the D3 sales? I guess the D3S put a swift end to any sales losses due to the D700. The D3's a fine camera but the D3S is so much better....and, sadly, prices reflect that.
     
  251. [C]learly Nikon is planning to introduce some new FX body or bodies on November 5.​
    Shun's quote (Shun Cheung [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG], Nov 01, 2013; 08:18 p.m.) reminds us that we have no reliable source for knowing very much at all about what is going to be announced on November 5. The rumor sites have tended to speak of one camera, and they have emphasized retro, but has Nikon said or implied that only one body is going to be released, and has Nikon said that only retro styling and function are in the offing? I have not watched the videos carefully enough to know. The word "it" (singular) is used in at least one video, as I recall, but are we reading too much into that? These are teasers, after all, and teasers serve a marketing function. Only the actual announcement promised by Nikon on November 5 can tell us all what we want to know--even those of us who cannot possibly afford to buy anything right now. Has Nikon ever made multi-product announcements before? Is the upcoming trade show going to showcase one or more Nikon bodies? Does anyone have any way of knowing? I certainly do not.
    It would be nice to have more than one model released, since it is clear from all these two hundred fifty or so comments over a nine-day period (since the morning of October 24 to this morning) that no one model could possibly please everybody. Nikon had to know that, of course.
    Nikon's teasers have gotten us all to start expressing our wishes and desires, and they have served the function of getting us to talk and speculate--and above all to wait for the announcement before we buy the new Sony (or whatever). We have (for the most part) tried to infer what is being implied from the facts as released by Nikon, and so I believe that this discussion has been a good one--certainly several notches above the discussions on the rumor sites. Even so, at this late date, we still don't know very much, do we? We don't know a thing, for example, about specs--and that is what most of us are waiting to hear. Only the rumor sites have printed "specs," in their usual authoritative tone.

    As for Sony and other rivals, Nikon had to put this advertising campaign into motion months before we heard about the new Sony or any other model or brand. (How good are the corporate spies in the camera world?)
    Nikon really pulled a marketing coup on this one. Now we can only wait and see if the announced product(s) is or are worth all of the hullabaloo. It's been fun, though, even for those of us who are only window shopping.
    --Lannie
     
  252. I've never seen the magical appeal for the D4 sensor in a consumer body. After downsampling, the high
    ISO performance is very similar to the D610 and D800. At the high ISO end I believe there's a small edge (I
    seem to have trouble getting at the detailed view on DxO using my tablet), but it's not much. I really think
    most consumers would be better with the flexibility of 24MP, though I still think a "small raw" mode might
    remove some reservations. I can see the benefit to a lower resolution to a sports shooter needing to
    process thousands of shots on a schedule, and it obviously makes the camera faster and increases the
    buffer, but I don't think a D4 sensor in a camera designed for slower more methodical use would be
    anything but a downgrade from the D610's. Which may be how Nikon position it, of course.

    Now, I don't have a D4 (offers?) so I could be missing the magic. Or, if this is a below-D610 model, maybe
    Nikon are ditching stocks of the D4 sensor while preparing the D5? (I wonder whether that was the plan
    with the D700, back in the days before the D3s launch.)

    Mike: remember the D700 with a grip can hit 8fps. I'd be astonished if it didn't steal some D3 sales - I
    certainly decided between them, if only because the D3 price dropped so much after the D700 release. I've
    seen used D3 and D700 bodies go at the same price. I'm curious whether anyone's still buying the D3x - I
    still see occasional adverts, and think "good luck" to retailers with stock.

    Anyway, what's going on behind the scenes could be anything. I'll be interested to find out, come Tuesday.
     
  253. OK, some more speculation here - if this is indeed a DF (for Digital Fusion) then maybe the "fusion" aspect stems from Nikon delivering essentially two cameras in a retro-styled body. One that relies on the old-fashioned dials but can morph into something more akin to the contemporary DSLR by using the command dials - without the command-center functionality of the top LCD (which of course could be duplicated on the back LCD).
    One thing seems certain - the body style will not allow for a large battery, so capacity will be limited. Incidentally, that's exactly why I don't believe that this camera will have an EVF - it would drain said small battery in no time at all.
    It might have a hybrid-shutter (to address the rumored hybrid aspect) - mechanical when the camera is used in "retro"-mode; electronically, when used in "modern" mode? AKA, the FM3A "hybrid" shutter? When in retro mode, the camera could then save battery juice by powering the internal electronics only.
    I tend to agree that some of the features on the body could point to a higher price point - but it's mere speculation since the specs aren't known yet. As Shun said, just a few more days until the reveal... Might even be another video tonight - though #6 could also be the official release video and be shown next week.
    Has Nikon ever made multi-product announcements before?​
    Simultaneous announcement of D3/D300 comes to mind.
     
  254. Dieter - I'm not sure I buy the small battery argument, given that the D800 and V1 (evf) share a battery, and
    it's not that big. There's certainly no reason an evf should use more power than your average compact with
    an LCD. But I would be surprised if there were a prism that size and shape with no optics (if Nikon followed
    Sony). Overlays in the Fuji style are another matter, but they cost money. As for hybrid mechanicals, I'd be
    more than astonished. But frankly I'm pretty surprised by any of this: I wouldn't have called a 58 f/1.4 and
    a D5300 either, before a 100D competitor, a sub-D3200, a D7100 with a bigger buffer or a D300s
    successor and a D5 (and a VR 300 f/4, 130 f/2 respin and a refresh of the pro zooms). So I guess it's clear
    that I'm unqualified to run a multinational company!
     
  255. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I am surprised that so many people keep on talking about EVF (Electronic ViewFinder), perhaps due to the misleading info on those rumor sites.
    In order to have EVF, the image from the lens has to be constantly hitting the sensor to generate the electronic image, to display inside the viewfinder. The traditional SLR mirror, which blocks the lens' image from the sensor/film and EVF are mutually exclusive; you cannot have both. Sony manages to have EVF on the recent DSLRs because they use a semi-transparant pellicle mirror, not a conventional SLR mirror. To put it bluntly, the pellicle mirror was something both Canon and Nikon had tried before and abandoned.
     
  256. Speaking of the D4, DPReview.com has never done a full review of that camera, although it does have a full review of the D3s. One can, however, make some limited comparisons by clicking on THIS LINK and leaving the D600 and D800 as displayed, but then dialing in the D3s and the D4 on the bottom two pictures--and thus compare four Nikon sensors at various ISOs.
    Even if one sets them all at 12,800, both the D3s and the D4 look very, very good--although the D800 is no slouch, either. (Nor is the D600/D610, for that matter, although it tends to do better at lower ISOs.)
    Now, when one considers that that little rectangle is a tiny part of the entire file (top of same page), one begins to get a feel for why people still buy the D700 and D3s on eBay. I have been absolutely blown away by the D3s that I bought this summer, and the D4 image as viewable on the page above shows that the D4 is even better at 12,800 ISO--overall. (I suppose that the D3s looks a bit cleaner, but that is more than made up for by the resolution increase in going from the D3s to the D4.)
    I have the D800E and a used D3s, but in most cases how much real joy and how much real quality are added by all of those megapixels for most pictures made by most people? Now look at how the D4 images look and ask the question again? (Remember processing time when you think about relative joy in addition to quality.)
    I am a resolution freak, have been ever since my dad gave me a Tasco 60mm telescope at the age of thirteen, but we are at the point that 16 mp (reliably delivered on full frame) gives very, very good results. Heck, I was printing 13x19 with my 5-mp Olympus E-20 a decade ago. How good is good enough? I would not want to give up my D800E, but I have been blown away by the D3s.
    All of that is why I believe that Nikon might come through on this new camera with a D4 sensor in it.
    Sorry to be so long-winded at getting that simple point out.
    In any case, for straight photography that gives great results but is always fun to shoot, there is nothing quite like having that high ISO capability when one needs it. How compulsive do we want to get about more megapixels for most applications?
    How good is good enough? As I said earlier, Canon has not gone beyond 22mp, and I am not even sure that most shots require that--even for printing.
    --Lannie
     
  257. Andrew, I am going by my experience with the NEX 6 which eats batteries for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That is to say that one battery is not allowing for a day of shooting, not even a half day (around 300 images per charge if memory serves). You could be right though, I forgot that the D800 battery fits the V1 as well.

    It's hard to tell from the video, but the viewfinder to me appears no bigger than the one from the F3.
    Shun, I believe the idea is to be able to lock the mirror up to use the camera with EVF. But that opens the question of AF - would at least require a sensor with phase detection capabilities like the 70D has.
    And the answer is ... ? Soon on this screen.
     
  258. PS: seem to recall a few reports that consider the battery life of the V1 to be quite short - so the EVF takes its toll.
     
  259. "PS: seem to recall a few reports that consider the battery life of the V1 to be quite short - so the EVF takes its toll."​
    I'll occasionally disable the rear screen and use only the EVF to extend battery life for a long session. Heavy use of the rear screen, particularly with video, seems to drain the battery. But the EVF doesn't seem to be a particular burden on the battery.
     
  260. I'm ready for a camera that has the dimensions of the F3HP, build quality, 24MP, smart ergonomics, more metallic incorporated, retro, or not, I'm ready for a Nikon that's built to last, verses the plastic crap that everybody whines about. The cycle of stamping out models every other year, built for obsolescence culture doesn't do well for a company. Isn't it time to prove that they can build something that lasts? Is there a reason why the Megapixel war should continue? It's futile. This whole teaser thing can be taken with grains of salt, and we're having our fun with it, some may disagree what fun is, or isn't, but from what we're seeing here in the pictures of this camera, this looks promising.
     
  261. It sure would be nice to use a split focusing screen on a big digital. The viewfinder has to be pretty bright for that to work very well.
    --Lannie
     
  262. pge

    pge

    I had a split screen on my D200 and D700 and I thought they were useful for manual focusing, however they weren't like my FE. So who knows maybe the new Df will focus more like the old manual focus cameras. That would be great, on the other hand I am not in the market for a new camera.
     
  263. Okay, so, has Nikon been purified yet?
     
  264. Dan, the only pure camera is a pinhole.

    --Lannie
     
  265. Matt Granger's new video spoofing Nikon's "pure photography" campaign is pretty funny.
     
  266. I turn my back for five minutes and this thread thunders on...


    Lannie: thank you, now I know the interactive widget in dpreview works on Android. :)


    Shun: I assume the "evf" would involve the option of showing live view through the conventional finder, like
    the Fuji rangefinder-style cameras. I imagine it could be done, possibly by projecting through the front
    element of the prism. I'm not expecting this, but it's possible.


    I would expect any electronic finder to require a lot more power than a purely optical solution, since the
    image processing pipe is running, but a large screen also pulls a lot of power (or the backlight does). So
    with a small battery, I'd not expect DSLR battery life in this mode, but it shouldn't cripple the camera.


    I'm not suggesting that everyone needs 36MP, but 24 seems a happy compromise. 16 is less than most
    manufacturers are offering, including all of Nikon's much cheaper cameras. Sometimes resolution helps
    (such as for the landscapes in the video). Assuming the camera isn't intended for pros who are limited in
    processing time by a very large image count, 50% more pixels is unlikely to make the difference between
    being prepared to wait for a computer and not (though I've always felt the same about the D800). Unless
    you're really only using iffy 1970s lenses, 24MP is well within a range that improves image quality - unlike,
    arguably, the D800e, whose benefits are small unless the glass is very good.


    Don: I didn't know people were whining about "plastic crap". Sure, my old 300D creaks a bit, but every
    modern camera I've held is pretty solid. As many complain about the weight of a D800 as like the metal
    build.


    Phil: I'm fine with a split screen on a film camera (like my Pentax 645) or in a rangefinder. It does mean
    you're stuck with focus-and-recompose, though, and that affects image quality by modern standards
    unless you compensate like Hasselblad's gyro solution. Fine as an accessory, but the single focus point's
    time has passed. Focus peaking - maybe by actually having a high resolution LCD in the place of the
    current AF indicators, on the other hand...


    Pinholes diffract and vignette. The only pure camera is to recreate the scene on a computer and render it.
     
  267. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Shun: I assume the "evf" would involve the option of showing live view through the conventional finder, like the Fuji rangefinder-style cameras. I imagine it could be done, possibly by projecting through the front element of the prism. I'm not expecting this, but it's possible.​
    Again, as I pointed out, that is technically impossible with a conventional SLR mirror. The Fuji X100/X100S is not even an SLR.
     
  268. is technically impossible with a conventional SLR mirror​
    Who said they have to use a conventional mirror ?
    Personally, I wouldn't care if it had an EVF, but it's ability to show a preview of what your result will be, would be pretty darn cool, if I wouldn't have to give up a real view finder to get it.
     
  269. The sixth (and final) video is now available. There is no new information on it.
    --Lannie
     
  270. Yeah. This last video is just a " Bring it all together " clip. I suspect there won't be another, until the release date on the 5th.
    Whether they bring out a camera I want or can afford or sells a lot, they have done a pretty good job of getting us intrigued about what EVER this will be. All I can say, by all the hints, is that this camera probably won't have video and won't have fast FPS. This camera is for other uses. Which suits me fine. That won't make everyone happy, but I think Nikon already HAS cameras for people who want those things.
     
  271. I suspect there won't be another, until the release date on the 5th.​
    Correct - it says so on the Nikon website: This is the concluding episode of the series.
     
  272. Video 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUu9fPzicBo
    "every frame is meaning full again"
    And there's a physical ISO dial.
    Gotta be film.
     
  273. Df - digital film? Interchangeable, hahaha. Digital sensor not included, optional upgrade. Maybe video 7 will arrive soon and video 8 is the final annoucement video?
     
  274. Shun: I said showing LIVE VIEW through the finder. That is, in mirror down mode, light is bounced from the
    Fresnel screen around the prism. In mirror-up mode, illuminate a display behind the front element of the
    prism (the one the eyepiece points at). Same as normal live view, but with the option of using the finder.
    I'm not suggesting they'll do this, just pointing out that it's possible. I brought up the Fujis because they
    similarly have a purely optical path (straight through the rangefinder) and a live-view-in-the-finder solution.
    All this is without resorting to evf-only solutions like the Sony SLT (using the image sensor for the evf) or
    the secondary-sensor-for-the-evf approach (though I've embarrassingly forgotten who did this).


    I'm not particularly expecting an unconventional finder, given the way the camera seems to be pitched, but
    it's fun to speculate. Roll on Tuesday.
     
  275. Dan - where do you get the physical ISO dial? Also, I'd really not go from the existence of a dial that allows
    quick setting changes to film, for which you set iso once per roll. (Though I like my idea of a film camera
    with integrated variable ND filter...) Plus there's the edge of what looks like an LCD. Now, a sensor in the finder offering live view and preview shots for a film camera would be interesting, but about ten years late. I'm calling death on 135 film, at least. (I must use what I have...)


    "FX" seems unlikely for a film camera. It does seem to be about slowing down the photographer (the dial
    interface is slower to use than Nikon's normal arrangement, at least the way the model is using it). One
    could argue that's a good thing. I just hope it's an eccentric model for exceptional use - and those who still
    haven't switched from film (though I'd expect F5 and F6 owners to be happier with a D4 or D800). So long
    as it's not Nikon's new ui strategy, I'll be happy to gaze in wonder at it. It'll probably seem like a better idea
    than a Leica X-Vario or a 'bad Lunar, anyway.
     
  276. Gotta be film.​
    I don't want to be rude, but that is absolutely ridiculous.
    So long as it's not Nikon's new ui strategy​
    Does Nikon have a user interface strategy at this point? I'm not seeing any determined or consistent direction in the development of a user interface across different models for Nikon.
    --Lannie
     
  277. Honestly, if Nikon produces an F7, I'll be pleasantly surprised. But I can't imagine it'd be commercially
    viable, and an unnecessary distraction. I wonder if there's a kickstarter for that, but making a very small
    production run film camera that's a better buy than what's on the used market is going to be very hard.


    Lannie: I think that's a little harsh. There's a lot in common between the D3xxx/D5xxx cameras and
    between the D7xxx and up. I'd feel a lot more comfortable using a D4 or D3, owning a D700, D800 and F5,
    than I would trying to use 5D or 1D - even though I own a 300D. The current range are pretty consistent.
    The F4 was very different, and the new camera seems to be too. Not that there aren't differences, even
    though I've not seen the changes (to one-handed operation) that I'd like. Still, the 1 series is very different -
    it's not as though Nikon has only one UI, even ignoring Coolpix. Though the thought of a V1 interface on
    any semblance of a serious camera horrifies me.
     
  278. Lannie: I think that's a little harsh.​
    I'm sorry, Andrew. The point was not to be so critical of Nikon as to express my own failure to see or understand what is going on. I do not have as much experience with Nikon as do many others. I shot Canon FD from 1982 to 2006, and Canon EOS from 2006 to 2012. Although I used some Nikon lenses with my Kodak 14n and DCS Pro SLR/n, I am really quite the neophyte where Nikon gear is concerned.
    I cannot say that Canon has been any better where user interface design is concerned.
    --Lannie
     
  279. So far, we have seen ~all of the front, most of the top, and only the top right quarter of the back. This suggests that the missing 3/4 contains the final mystery. What could they be hiding there?
     
  280. Lannie: I may be oversimplifying! Nikon did cause some havoc by switching the +/- buttons and moving
    the AF controls in the D800/D4 generation. Plus the D4 got some joysticks (as did some of Canon's recent
    models). Most things have been pretty consistent since the F5, though, just as Canon have had the same
    "wheel above the shutter + big rear wheel" arrangement since film days. At the low end, both
    manufacturers move things around more, especially with flip screens (which ironically achieve the effect I
    want of moving buttons off the left side of the camera) and touch screens. I'd probably struggle just as
    much with a D3200 as with a 5D, based off my limited interaction with each. I'd like to think they're aiming
    for incremental improvements. I just don't 100% trust them not to decide a radical redesign is better
    without a lot of ergonomic testing - mostly because I still don't understand why the AF control position on
    the high-end Nikons has never been seen as a problem.


    So I hope Tuesday's release is interesting and radical - but I hope the whole range doesn't follow it.
     
  281. Didier Lamy[​IMG], Nov 03, 2013; 09:34 a.m.
    So far, we have seen ~all of the front, most of the top, and only the top right quarter of the back. This suggests that the missing 3/4 contains the final mystery. What could they be hiding there?​
    Didier - I've been thinking the same thing. They have given looks over most of the camera. We have not seen the back of the viewfinder, rear LCD or the left side of the LCD. If they have not shown us most of the camera there must be some surprises left.
    This leaves me to believe that either the viewfinder is removable or there is an EVF stuck in the viewfinder - e.g. their recent patent on such a configuration. Maybe the LCD is monochrome for reduced power consumption and the EVF is used for color picture review. The in viewfinder EVF would draw much less power than the rear LCD.
    Two more nights and we'll find out.
     
  282. John: interesting thought, though I have to assume that mono LCDs are rare enough that they may not be
    very cost-effective. Just missing the colour filters from a conventional LCD would only triple the resolution
    in one direction. I always took this as the only explanation for the Leica monochrom having a colour LCD.
    The edge of SOMETHING is visible in one of the images, suggesting there is an LCD of some sort. Maybe
    it's entirely touchscreen-driven - this wouldn't surprise me on most cameras, though it might be a bit odd
    on this one. It would bypass the need for conventional multi-function dials as well as dedicated ones, but
    this camera seems to have both.
     
  283. Maybe its film, with a monitor? That's not necessarily wishful thinking, I'm actually hoping its digital, I already have an F3HP, FA, and an FM3a. Sorry if I seem confused, but it seems like I'm in the same company.
     
  284. All this retro stuff, I rather shoot the real thing. People buy stuff from online stores nowadays, what's so hard using a online film shop and a online lab. Paying current prices (let alone an expected premium) on a retro looking camera with a 21st century CCD sensor. The images itself isn't gonna look like film anyway. That's beside the point I know ... it's a lookalike with 21st century convenience. But like always give it 5 or 10yrs and this Df price tage will just plummet, it's the latest iPad people use it for Facebook and Youtube videos. Couldn't I just use the first iPad or a 2004 model desktop PC on that running Windows XP. Heck I import film from B&H/Frestyle back to New Zealand then export to Dwaynes Lab for processing. You guys have it cheaper and a better quality than my single local pro lab here. Rather put that $3,000 per 4yrs into a film/lab instead not that I remotely shoot that much. Still many people just want shots put on Facebook or emailed to them. The 0.25% put on 6x4s. If I get to NYC I would pick up 20x pro packs of film at your current prices.
     
  285. There will be many many howls if the DF doesn't have an excellent, MF-optimized OVF at the very least.
    Also howls if there is no other magic other than an excellent OVF, external controls, and Nikon prices it above the D610.
    I also noticed that it likely does not have a 10-pin connector. This is truly looking like a Frankenstein of a camera that grabs features from an F3 or F4, D600, D800, and D4 puts them in a blender and out comes the DF which makes it really hard to tell where they will be pricing it.
    If it doesn't have an excellent OVF with interchangeable screens or a built-in EVF then it may be quite hard for me to go back down from 36MP all the way to 16MP.
     
  286. 10pin, i thought retro mechanical cable releases ;-) surely not one of those D3200 stereo plugin ones.
     
  287. I dont believe to the film hypothesis, however there is some film perfume coming from this Df, namely:
    > in video #1, the first and only sentence is "it's in my hands again". *again* what?
    > in video #3, the guy is busy cleaning his lens, so it is fair to assume that his camera is switched off. When he hears the bird, he puts back the lens in place and quasi immediately takes the photo. Are digital cameras fully functionnal so fast?
    > we never see the photographer looking at the back of the camera after shooting
     
  288. Regarding film: It has a back screen. Why on earth would you need a back screen for film?
    Ergo, it must be digital.
    --Lannie
     
  289. pge

    pge

    Maybe its film, with a monitor?​
    Funny because I made a prediction earlier in this thread that was wrong, but opposite to this. I said digital without a monitor.
    I would be floored if it was film, and I think we know enough from these teaser videos to know that it is digital. It appears to be a camera with external manual controls, thus the retro, but with all the modern good stuff. Personally I love the idea that it might use the D4 sensor. I could quite easily live with 16mp rather than the 36 that I shoot with now. It looks like a really interesting machine, and rather than demanding a camera custom make for me, I am quite interesting to see what the people at Nikon created. They have come up with some amazing things in the past so lets give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.
     
  290. I have wandered for 10 years why one of the camera manufacturers didn't produce a "film" SLR body with an LCD on the back and use a translucent mirror to accomplishment this. Go one step further and add memory card capability. You get both film and digital capability. Could also be either-or capability.
     
  291. Lannie: Same reason you stick a polaroid film in a view camera: as a preview. But I agree with Michael: it
    could have been really cool... ten years ago, when film was cheap and digital sensors less good.


    Didier: I assume "again" is just about a camera with early 1980s handling. Yes, DSLRs wake up very
    quickly these days, and many don't review after every shot, at least if you trust the meter (or your
    estimation skills).


    Ray: the Fuji cameras and Leicas still sell because, for some uses, they're really good tools for the job. I
    have a film Bessa R, and I'd like an X100s. I've used a Rolleiflex and mostly enjoyed it. An F5 isn't always
    the right tool, nor is any DSLR. In this case, with a small lens and a degree of methodical shooting, I can
    see the appeal of the camera, especially to the significant number of photographers who never "got" the
    button+multifunction dial interface. I think there are good reasons why most cameras don't work this way
    any more, but as a second camera or if I really didn't get on with a D800, I can see a small market gap. As
    for why not buying an old camera instead, sorry, but 135 film really can't do what a modern digital sensor
    can except under exceptional circumstances - that debate really died a few years ago. We could still just
    about talk about larger formats (I'm keeping my Pentax 645, I actively want a 5x4, and I wouldn't turn down
    a rolleiflex or a Mamiya 7 if offered), but those are different cameras. Which is not to say 135 cameras are
    land fill (I may even pick up an Eos 3 for fun some day), but there are reasons to go digital instead.
     
  292. I know where you are coming at ... but film is just fun. I don't demand the highest quality, it's fun, much more processes, imperfections are part of it too and they are cheap. To me at least looking at the older photographs is more interesting than the newer ones say at a photography gallery. If I happen to be in NYC would certainly carry back 20 rolls of pro pack with me :)
     
  293. Well, at the risk of getting into a DVF thing, and I won't, I fail to see why a monitor is exclusive to digital, by digital, for digital, and of digital. Monitors have their function for some. Personally I've lived all these years without one, as the viewfinder provides the majority information, but the monitors purpose, is to simply get instant feedback, and for improvisation of the scene which is just as useful for film as digital. If monitors were placed on film camera's in the first place we wouldn't know there should be a difference. It could have been done.
     
  294. Andrew:" "again" is just about a camera with early 1980s handling". You are probably right, but still, all that for just that...
    Back to the missing 3/4 of the back, how about this one?
    00c7rc-543384484.jpg
     
  295. That looks like the new PIMJIP (Pre-Inserted Memory Jogger Information Panel) I've been hearing rumours about...
    Now available in Special Edition 2013 Square Format too!
     
  296. Ray, I agree. But I don't think it's the basis of releasing a new commercial product. :) (Though, seriously, if someone kickstarters a modern 135 camera project with an F mount, I'll be interested - if it's cheap and there's any chance of it actually being made.)

    Didier: Ooh, I forgot about the film reminder holder. But, alas, there's a little writing on it in teaser 5 shot 2 above, so I'm sticking to the boring "big LCD" theory.
     
  297. Why on earth would you need a back screen for film?​
    Let's not forget that the F6 has a back screen - and it is definitely a film camera:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/NikonF6/images/MIR4NikonpassionC.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/NikonF6/&h=979&w=1080&sz=131&tbnid=dJLSebX0FhQECM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__1cQFcHwekrI0yi97rbZRRuyrAm0=&docid=Tk3bwVPbi8hMnM&sa=X&ei=5n93UoHlJMGmigK_toCoCA&ved=0CEEQ9QEwBA
    Imagine it comes in handy to be able to see the camera settings when on a tripod, for example.
    Not that I believe for even a second that any camera maker is going to release a new 35mm film camera nowadays.
     
  298. Now, a film camera with a live-feed histogram on the back screen (and maybe in the VF) might be handy.
    I don't believe it though!
     
  299. A histogram for film is tricky, as is sensing for it - the problem is matching the spectral response of the film to that of the sensor. Though it might be possible if some film companies were to hand out their colour filter layer technology.

    A while back, I did suggest to Nikon (and, IIRC, Canon) that the exposure bar should be tricolour - and that if it could display continuous intensities, it could also double as a histogram preview. I'm not holding my breath.

    Out of interest, how far do we have to go before we reach a record thread length?
     
  300. Well, I guess the output from the D4's 91k-pixel RBG sensor could be turned into a useful graphic?
    I guess the film's spectral stuff is just numbers, right? Easy processing as there's nothing else for the chips inside to do.
    Still don't reckon it's gonna happen. The gap between Brave and Foolhardy is not a narrow one here!
    It's one of those, 'If you want to go back to retro film, there's nothing wrong with an FM2n' ideas....if you need to go fast and/or in the dark, get a D3S; pushing film up to ISO CRAZY is pointless.
    A 35mm SLR camera is always going to be big because the glass bit in-front has gotta be big....pancake lenses aside.
     
  301. Out of interest, how far do we have to go before we reach a record thread length?​
    Expecting the official announcement thread tomorrow, this thread will then have had its run. Maybe Shun has an easy way to find the "record thread length" in this forum?
     
  302. Mike: Film's spectral response is fundamentally different from the filters in DSLRs (which also differ from each other). I actually thought Velvia had more than the three layers that it does, but the behaviour of the filters is still significant: shine a single-wavelength laser at film and a DSLR and you'll get different behaviour, and this does affect how images are reproduced. It's the primary reason that I have such trouble capturing bluebells on digital. You can't do a simple 1:1 mapping between colour spaces because you need the full spectrum of the captured scene to do this. You could probably do onefilm, or actually build a spectrometer into a camera, though.

    But I agree, film's sensitivity has been far surpassed by digital sensors, and the opportunity for a hybrid camera was passed several years back - arguably including medium format, though 5x4 film still has some advantages over a scanning back. The most significant way to get any more sensitivity is to go to a monochrome sensor, but it's unusual for that to be worthwhile.
     
  303. Maybe Shun has an easy way to find the "record thread length" in this forum?​
    I heard who ever is number 303 wins a free camera of their choice...
     
  304. Thank you, Peter. :) Now, choices choices... (but probably not whatever's announced tomorrow). Incidentally, I thought it was unusually specific for Nikon to include the year in the "November 5th" declaration!
     
  305. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I heard who ever is number 303 wins a free camera of their choice...​

    Actually, whoever is number 303 will win a Nikon Digital Film camera that is made out of cardboard. The big advantage is that the lens mount is flexible so that you can mount any brand of lens onto it. :)

    I recall that a couple of years ago, there was some film vs. digital debate with over 800 posts and counting. Of course very few of those 800 posts have useful information. (Perhaps I should say none of them has any value, but I never read them all.) It was mainly the same arguments over and over.

    And of course, after 300+ posts on this thread, it is still not entirely clear what cameras Nikon is introducing tomorrow. I am amazed that no official images of the new cameras have leaked out yet, other than those fuzzy ones captured from frames on the teaser videos. However, we may see some of those, as well as fake, PhotoShopped ones, when it gets closer to announcement time.

    Yes, I'll close this thread by November 5.
     
  306. nikon rumors seems to have the leaked pictures of it, can I link it or is it against the rules?
    [​IMG]
     
  307. Fede - I was about to mention the same. If they're accurate... well, it looks like a usability nightmare to me (mostly because of how much you have to move your hands around when they should be on the shutter button), but I guess it may appeal to some people! It certainly doesn't meet my "stop putting stuff on the left side of the camera, that hand is busy holding a lens" concerns. Even worse with an AI lens if you're trying to control aperture and focus with the left hand, of course. (I assume that aperture control for a G lens would either use the rear dial or use the front thing that I kind of hope is less a dial than a 10-pin connector cover.)

    Anyway, it could all be completely inaccurate, and it won't take us long to find out. I'll be interested in what some reviewers make of the handling, and if I can find one in a store, I'll certainly have a play.

    Shun: You don't surprise me about film vs digital. For what it's worth, I've enjoyed the posts on this thread a great deal - I like to know what people want from a camera, even if it's not what Nikon gives them!
     
  308. If that "Made in Japan" on the leaked images is correct, then I think we should brace ourselves for sticker shock. But if this is priced similar to the D800 (or even higher), then why would I chose it? Ah, let's wait for the specs...

    And THAT thing is going to make Nikon more money than a D400? The market for retro-look must be a lot larger than the one for a high-end DX camera.
    Now, what is "pure photography" about THAT thing?
    "In my hands again" - apparently the dials. Hmmh, what I am dialing in stuff on my current DSLRs with - my feet?
    "Now, every frame is meaningful again" - what now, adding insult to injury?
    "No clutter" - guess we need to re-define "clutter".
    "No distractions" - yeah, right.
     
  309. Dieter: I'm not expecting this camera to appeal to people based on the specs. And yes, I think Nikon would have made more money by releasing a "D400", at least if they managed not to poach too many D4 sales. But presumably Nikon are taking a gamble on creating a new market segment (even if it's a bit similar to Fuji and Leica's segment) and the theory that there are more frustrated film shooters out there than people wanting a "pro" DX camera. I'll be surprised if they're right, but I've been surprised before. If they feel the market is disappearing, credit to them for trying to do something different, even if it's so different that it seems nonsensical. The last time Nikon tried this it was with the 1-series; indeed, if they really are reconsidering the 1 range, maybe this is the next wacky idea that the same team created.

    Cynically, "in my hands" might mean "because I had to move my hand off the shutter to use the control" (as opposed to "at my fingertips" where they are with the current design - the lesson from the X100 should be "where are your hands when you're using this style of camera?", not "manual everything"). Every frame is meaningful because you'll have lost the chance to take more than one image in the time it took to change the settings. No distractions, because you'll be busy looking at the camera rather than the subject. And, yes, Nikon seems to disagree with what I'd call clutter too. But the leaks could be entirely misleading, and we'll find out soon.

    Of course, this could all be a distraction from Nikon releasing a D400 at the same time...
     
  310. Andrew G..
    ...and I thought Nikon were being a bunch of teasers..:)
    They couldn't make this camera any smaller and still fit on all those controls. Designed for a warm, dry climate, despite the Scottish vids. Fancy that with wet cold fingers?? Not sure I do.
    We'll see soon enough. Shun has done the usual and cleared the Recent Added Forum Posts space at the top!
     
  311. I get it now: "every frame is meaningful again" is hinting at the camera not having video (but live view).
    But the leaks could be entirely misleading, and we'll find out soon.​
    Most certainly could - but those images look like the real deal as it would be quite some photoshop work to come up with that many and in that quality.
    Of course, this could all be a distraction from Nikon releasing a D400 at the same time...​
    I retain a glimmer of hope that the D400 is delayed because a) the intended successor was canned because of the earthquake and flood and b) the "new" D400 it's going to be something truly remarkable. In fact, I am willing to bet all the money currently in my pocket on this - which is all of 1 cent. Chances that we ever see a D400 in the form and shape that we envision are very very slim though.
     
  312. The proud positioning of "Made in Japan" on the top of the camera indicates not modest price, I'm afraid. Maybe there will be a DX, "Made in Thailand" student version in the future :)
     
  313. Would have to be a VERY modest price for me to buy THAT thing. I reserve further judgement about the ergonomics of THAT thing until I had the opportunity to handle one myself. Certainly not going to join the "pre-order" crowd.
    I suppose the world has been asking Nikon for this kind of camera - in the same way they asked for a D610 to have a faster frame rate and a quiet mode?
    Looks like the that rumors website is in melt-down.
     
  314. Well, if that 'bare bones' pic on NR is to be believed, it has an in-body AF drive motor.
    But, what is that huge knob (?) below the shutter release?
     
  315. I think it`s the front command dial. There is no way of selecting the aperture on a "G" lens.
    BTW, Shun, of course there are "officially leaked images", as usual:
    00c7up-543387884.jpg
     
  316. Rear view,
    00c7ut-543387984.jpg
     
  317. And maybe the most interesting one, the chassis&inner body:
    00c7ux-543388084.jpg
     
  318. Front view in two flavours:
    00c7v0-543388184.jpg
     
  319. Well, if that 'bare bones' pic on NR is to be believed, it has an in-body AF drive motor.​
    It better, at the price I'm guessing it's going to sell at...
    This is the most fun I've had here all year...
     
  320. Jose: Remember there are separate shutter speed, exposure compensation and ISO settings. There's a normal rear command dial, which you could use for aperture (if you're not using a pre-G lens; the design of this camera seems to assume that you'd not use anything so new-fangled). It's possible that the thing on the front which looks like a G2 focus knob is a control dial, but I really hope it's just a cover for a 10-pin connector. If it is a dial, maybe the ergonomics will be better than I think, but I don't think I see how it could be easy enough to spin with very little grip and stiff enough to stay put when nudged - there's a reason most camera dials are in their current positions.

    I remember once chortling at the suggestion of having a vast number of dedicated dials on a camera. I guess Nikon either think I'm wrong, or made a tiny run that they expect too get panned in reviews so that people will stop actually requesting the thing. Guess we'll see. :)
     
  321. Gup

    Gup Gup

    Well, there it is. The new Nikon retro-look camera. Exactly what I would expect it to look like. A 'fusion' of nostalgia and modern technology. Following on the success of Fuji, Olympus, Leica, Dodge, Chevrolet, Volkswagen... Old is back in fashion. As we age, the more experienced amongst us sometimes long for a taste of 'the good old days' (usually not really taking the time to analyse the pros and cons of such a longing) and then pony-up the beaucoup bucks for a trip down memory lane. I have wanted the new Dodge Challenger since it was in the rumour stage because I remember the thrill of being behind the wheel of the original, but the new one blows the original out of contention in every way imaginable, and it has seatbelts!
    I am optimistic this new body will be a hit for Nikon. I congratulate them for their courage and cross my fingers they can meet demand and deliver a stable product free of black eyes. Time will tell.
     
  322. Given the looks, it is at least appropriately named: Digital Frankenstein.
     
  323. Dieter Schaefer[​IMG], Nov 04, 2013; 01:45 p.m.
    Given the looks, it is at least appropriately named: Digital Frankenstein.​
    I've been calling it that for a bit now too. I find that it's a very odd mix of high end and low end features that makes it hard for me to figure out if I want one. The rumored price is high end, but with so many low end features it's neither fish nor fowl to me.
    The only thing left is what the viewfinder is looking like inside. It had better be stellar and allow changeable focusing screens.
    So far Nikon has rummaged through the designer parts bin as it has features from almost every camera:
    - D600 AF sytem
    - AF-On from the D800, etc.
    - 16MP from D4 (which is not a justification for a higher price)
    - Made in Japan: D800, D4, etc.
    - BKT button a la D600
    - No 10 pin connection, a la D600
    - etc. etc.
     
  324. Andrew, isn`t it too big for a 10-pin connector? And the location is somewhat odd.
    The compensation dial looks to have a locking button... ooops. Nothing like the compensation control on the rear command dial. If so, the aperture control should be on a "front command dial"... we`ll know this soon.
    I think ergonomics is not the strongest point in this camera; to me, it has been made for the user` eyes (and senses), instead of the hands.
    00c7wr-543389984.jpg
     
  325. it's neither fish nor fowl​
    Maybe that's the "hybrid" aspect? Neither here nor there comes to mind when looking at it.
    It's an odd mix indeed - which makes it so hard to estimate the price. But since it's Nikon, it is going to be rather higher than one expects anyway :-(

    That thingy on the front next to the Df has got to be a command dial - I assume it is for setting the aperture - at least when the camera is use in the "two-command dial" mode rather than the "select full-stop shutter speed increments with humongous wheel on top" mode.
    I just can't get over that monstrous socket the DOF and Function button are sitting on - why, oh why?
    What's that dark square on the other side of the viewfinder?
     
  326. I have 5 camera's now, and have had 8 at one time, and at no time did I buy a camera based on looks. Performance only. If the majority bought on looks, think of the sales disasters camera manufacturers would have.
     
  327. When I saw the first pictures of the F4, my first thoughts were how ugly it looked. Quite liked how it worked though...
     
  328. Madness:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GD1KASM/
    EDIT: they now removed the price tag (which makes me think it is sort of legit), it said U$S 2,746.95 body only and U$S 2,996.95 - 50mm 1.8 when first published.
     
  329. Saw the same numbers, madness if indeed true - we'll see in less than 12 hours.
    So, the 100% excitement, 0% disappointment with the first video has now turned into 0% excitement, 100% disappointment for me; I am not sure where my "anger" meter is right now (Df instead of D400, arrgghhh).

    Looks indeed like the D4 sensor is being used - and the D600/D610 AF module; here's the "specs" from the amazon page:
    • Nikon's thinnest, lightest FX-format D-SLR
    • 16.2MP image sensor paired with EXPEED 3 image processing
    • Dedicated mechanical dials for shutter speed, ISO sensitivity, exposure compensation, exposure mode and release mode
    • 39-point autofocus system with 9 highly accurate cross-type sensors
    • Compatible with all current AF-S, AF-D and AF NIKKOR lenses
    From amazon: Due to high demand we anticipate being unable to fulfill all customer orders with our first allocation. Product supply from Nikon is very limited.

    They already know this before the camera has even officially been announced? Talk about wishful thinking - what if the reverse will come true: low demand and high supply?
    PS: don't go looking at amazon - the listing has been removed.
     
  330. Jose: given that it's got a dedicated exposure compensation dial, I assumed you were expected to use the
    rear dial for aperture, the only "everything else" option. Nikon don't have a good record for letting you
    remap controls that they put somewhere dumb - hence my crossness about not being able to put ISO and
    AF on buttons I can reach. Maybe they really did decide on a conventional two-dial interface with manual
    "everything" as well - but it seems odd to pick on such an odd choice of control rather than the dials with
    good ergonomics that they normally use. I can hope it's a really big cover, but I'm prepared to be wrong.
    Dieter, you could be right that they needed two dials because the fixed dials just can't do the required
    functionality (as we've known since the F5).


    I assume the dark square is an ir receiver, especially if decent remote options are limited. If Nikon are
    clever, it's a CLS trigger instead.


    Fede: well, putting lots of mechanical dials on a camera is expensive. Guess I shouldn't be surprised. Good
    luck with that expected high demand, though.


    Don: I've never bought a camera on looks, but I've been glad my F5 is scuffed and looks cheap, and my 28-200 is silver and makes my D700 look not worth stealing. I don't care what the Df looks like, but I'm really
    concerned that the handling looks awful. I thought the same of the X Vario, so what do I know?
     
  331. "What's that dark square on the other side of the viewfinder?"
    Looks like a clone of the F3 red light that flashes during delayed shooting.

    Could there be some movable AA filter, that would be operated with one of the still mystery knobs?
     
  332. I do have a screenshot from Amazon about the Nikon Df, but can't upload it right now. It's exactly as described in two previous posts, USD 3000 with the 1.8. I personally think it looks awesome. Actually, the page is still open in my browser and I can zoom in any of the images as much as I like, and I do like to do it a lot. I still haven't seen any of the teaser videos, just followed this forum to get the latest news, and I was actually not that much interested in this camera until I actually saw the pictures now.
    And threaded cable release, that almost brings tears to my eyes.
    00c7xj-543390284.jpg
     
  333. Yep, the camera brings tears to my eyes too - for a different reason though.
    Available November 28 if I read that correctly?
    Now one doesn't have to spend more than $6K to shoot at ISO 204800...
    Likely not as fast though...
     
  334. Why have a movable AA filter when you could just put a higher res sensor in? Still, you never know. Oh,
    and that port might be an AF illuminator.


    Looks like a "collectors' Nikon", like the recent re-run of rangefinders. If so, it's surprisingly cheap, but
    otherwise I don't see the point of it. It's a heck of a way to try to make a camera lighter than the 6D. At least
    they don't seem to have tied up capacity on it.


    And now we get to the bit where everyone stops being excited or at least curious and starts being critical...
    (I'm with Dieter about the D400, and I don't even want one!)


    Is it me, or are most of the camera manufacturers flailing a bit for ideas? Arguably the 1 series, but this, the X Vario, the Lunar, the Pentax Q and K-01...
     
  335. Ten pin connector looks to be in the same location as the D800 on the left side (when in use) between the top dials and the lens release. I am going to have to let this one grow on me, especially at it's advertised price.
     
  336. I don't get it, and I won't get one. Will get over being angry eventually I suppose. Keep wondering what they are smoking over at Nikon though.
     
  337. Andrew, when I said "madness", was because of the availability of it thru amazon before the release date =)
    Price is according I guess, given that it indeed seems to have the D4's sensor. I had hopes anyway for it to be a market competitor on the same price range of the new sony cameras, I guess thats a no. I'd get one just for fun if I had 3k to spare, but I don't, so I'll just wait for my visit to the states and get the D600 or the D610 for about the same price with more lenses.
     
  338. Well thought out views here on the ergonomics, but there's nothing like getting it into human hands, and perhaps the control buttons are designed to please. Those pronounced buttons on the front appear to provide positive navigation. Seems like if this is true, sleek has taken a back seat to function. First glance, I'm puzzled at the exposure comp dial is not on the right, and that mode selection is, Hmm. Many new Fuji models have the EXposure comp dial on the right like the Contax G2, a feature that was praised by many. Anyway, camera's have been getting smaller, and smaller, and last time I checked my hands have not, so maybe there's something to this.
     
  339. Another, cropped part of the page, copyright belongs to whomever the copyright of pictures on deleted Amazon listings belong to.
    00c7xv-543390484.jpg
     
  340. And another one:
    00c7xy-543390684.jpg
     
  341. Interestingly enough when I click on the link for Amazon it comes up an error and if I go to Amazon and search for the page its not coming up????????
     
  342. Peter, is the back similar to what has been leaked so far?
     
  343. I have no idea, since I haven't seen the teasers, but to me it looks like any other digital camera's back. I use a D2x and the only unusual things I can see at a quick glance are an "i" button at the bottom of the buttons to the left of the screen (with Menu etc.), and a separate "info" button at bottom right, next to the Live view. But maybe I'm just unfamiliar with some of the more recent Nikons and these are nothing unusual. There is a separate AF-ON switch.
     
  344. Could have just as well made another crop:
    00c7yA-543390784.jpg
     
  345. Interestingly enough when I click on the link for Amazon it comes up an error and if I go to Amazon and search for the page its not coming up????????​
    As I already said above - the listing has been removed.
    What is it with Nikon and pricing - everything lately comes up higher by a few hundred dollars than even the worst expectations?
    A built-in viewfinder shutter was too expensive? In a $2750 camera? Glad they didn't eliminate the diopter and had us go back to ocular rings of different strengths (lacking the rubber coating and scratching up glasses).
    Now, who is going to be the first to complain that this camera doesn't do video? Not me, I don't care.
     
  346. ..and I was just informed about this post that appeared earlier today, so Amazon wasn't the first to leak:
    http://www.cameraegg.org/nikon-df-camera-images-silver/
     
  347. Thank you Peter, you are right it looks like any other digital camera..
     
  348. Almost 70% of 1377 voters got the price too low on cameraegg; 12% estimated too high.
     
  349. Just too many things that are "cheap" on this camera for a $2800 body:
    - 39 pt AF system
    - No built-in VF cover
    - No 10 pin connector
    - No video (I can do without video, but others need it)
    - 16MP (why not 24?)
    So I'd be getting for $2800
    - Excellent (hopefully - we don't know yet) viewfinder
    - External dials/switches
    - Smaller/lighter
    - Threaded shutter release
    - Non-AI lens mounting
    Not sure it makes sense to me as a D800 owner to have this as a second or only body. In 5 years this will surely be a classic after the price has dropped a lot, but right now????
     
  350. Well it's not a D400 sport machine a few wanted, there is a rear command dial, that round thing at the front left (as you are looking at the front camera) is that a 10 pin port or a funny front command dial? Having not seen ths specs seems like a flashless videoless mag alloy D610 body with a retro look coupled with a couple of retro dials on top. Due to that it won't be as slick in controlling the camera for those who want a hobby camera that performs with a retro look. You don't just press a button and scroll a dial. Now you have top dials to turn ... Looks a bit large too. At least those that I measured my FM to the Fuji's X. The back looks really modern, the front just looks like a cosmetic blanket. The grip looks like a Mamiya. Reduced pixel size, D610 internals with a $2,700 price tag?
     
  351. F-stoppers has some drool-worthy pics here.
    excited about this. only mildly disappointed about the AF system. i'd be afraid that NAS would instantly take over, were i to hold one in my fat little hands. does anyone know what the fps is?
     
  352. amazon had it for pre-orders for a minute. priced at $2750. at that price, buy a D800.
     
  353. does anyone know what the fps is?​
    5.5 fps. The camera seems to be a D610 on the inside - except for the 16MP D4 sensor - all clad in a retro-style body and priced at $2750 (body only).
     
  354. At that price, if I wanna look that retro I'll use my F2 and tape a fake LCD screen on it. :)
     
  355. Wow... so they took video off and made it retro-styled. Okay... it looks cool and easy to use if you're old-school.

    I don't use video a lot, but won't buy a camera without it anymore. And full frame 16MP for 2800 bucks?
    If the specs and price are what they seem to be, it'll be more incentive to stick with my DX D90 even longer, and maybe at some point switch to the way cool Fuji rangefinder camera at some point even.
    I'm not saying that this is a fail for Nikon. It isn't. This is awesome. But it's not quite the enthusiast camera that I was thinking it might be. It's not for me. It might be for some of you guys, though...
     
  356. can someone explain to me why I would want this when I already have a D800???? a serious question...
     
  357. Roy at a guess - maybe a retro feeling operating of the camera with a slower pace but still shooting digital, well IMO digital is gonna look ilke digital, with a retro operating way. Doesn't come cheap. And 16MP should be enof for most people, clearly not a wedding or sport camera to me.
     
  358. From what I remember from those occasional threads asking for a digital FM I can't imagine that this is what those who asked had in mind - it's most likely not retro enough.
    Those asking for a "D700 successor" with the D4 sensor probably aren't too thrilled by the retro and the 39-area AF.
    So this is then just for those guys who want to reminisce about the "good old days" and now have a DSLR with old-style dials to do so?
    Maybe instead of scene modes with comes with a selection of "film modes"? Select Tri-X, Kodachrome 25 or Velvia?
     
  359. hmm, 5.5 fps is fast enough for most PJ work. i'm salivating right now; the black body looks soo cool... but the reality is a d800 is probably a better deal at that price point for most, although the 16mp FX sensor has better high-iso performance than the 36mp chip. at $2000, this would have been a no-brainer, but pricing it at that level would have been far too sensible for nikon, seeing as it lacks video.
    overall, i think this is a win for nikon, even if few of us will actually buy one. and nikon needs wins badly after the d600 debacle.
     
  360. Now wait a minute - 5.5 fps - they didn't put the "old" D600 shutter in this thing, now did they? The new one in the D610 can do 6fps - so why should the Df not do the same?
     
  361. My question is would you pay this price for these specs if it was in a typical modern Nikon DSLR body? Seems like quite a premium just to have a retro look. I can see retro anytime I want for free just by looking in the mirror.
     
  362. If the VF view is exceptional, it'll sell. Nothing else grabs me....unless there are specs that haven't leaked.
     
  363. Eric: The high ISO difference between a D800 and a D4 is actually pretty small. The D4 supports
    stratospheric ISOs because you still get something usable at the pixel level; on a D800 you don't - until you
    down sample to 16MP. (I'm not saying the D610 and D800 perfectly match the D4, but it's not like the gap
    between the D3x and D3s.) I'm standing by my claim that the only place for a 16MP sensor is in a high
    frame rate body, and that Nikon are going to struggle to sell the "full frame advantage" when the D3200 out
    resolves it.


    So, Nikon could have produced a "D400" for sports and wildlife in good light, which I'm going to define as a
    D800 body with a D7100 sensor and 6fps, 8fps with a grip, and a decent buffer, priced around the D610.
    They could have produced a "D750", which I'm going to define as a D4 sensor in a D800 body, with 6 fps
    boostable to 8 with a grip, for around the price of a D800. They could have made a "D7100h" - a D7100 with
    a bigger grip. They could have made a "D650" with a D800 AF module in a D610. They could have made a
    minimal FX body ("D500") with no AF motor, either the D610 sensor or the D4's, and further price cutting.
    They could have released a 24MP D5 with 12fps and AF updates. They could have released a D850 with
    D7100 pixel density across the frame. They could have competed with a 100D by shrinking the "D3300".
    They could have released an F7, with the D800's meter and AF and the D700's shutter abilities. They could
    even have made a DSLR with minimal changes from a pure film camera - manual shutter dial, possibly a
    second control near the lens mount so you have the same hand position for G and pre-G lenses, minimal
    other controls (like a Leica - inconvenient digital interface which you ignore when shooting).


    Nikon did none of these, all of which have, to some extent, been called for. The Df feels like a camera
    designed by a competition winner with no training in ergonomics, but presumably Nikon feel they might
    sell enough to risk the development cost, and that all the other types of camera that people have called for
    are not going to sell. I've no idea how they know this, but I'm in no position to argue.


    I'll await reviews. Maybe the interface is unexpectedly brilliant in use, I just don't see how.


    As for the D600, it was a bit embarrassing, but was it that bad? I thought they sold okay, considering a lot
    of buyers should have got a D7100...
     
  364. Incidentally, good catch on there not being an eyepiece shutter (apparently). The Amazon images do
    suggest the rumoured flippy aperture follow tab, but that may be optimism.
     
  365. Excellent summary Andrew....:)
    So many targets, so many misses.
    Here's hoping for something special.!!
     
  366. If true, this is sad. The main reason I upgraded from the D7000 to the D7100 was the improved AF performance. If it is true that the new camera has the same AF as the D7000 and the D600, it doesn't make sense for me.
     
  367. > I am not sure where my "anger" meter is right now (Df instead of D400, arrgghhh).
    Well, yeah me too, but I got over it prospectively: I finally gave up on the D400 and put my money down for an OM-D E-M1 with the 12-40/2.8 lens over the weekend after playing extensively with the E-M1 at the local camera store's trade show. On the topic of Nikon, this show had several reps from each of the major companies, including a new (to me) Nikon rep. The "new" guy almost had me sold on a D7100 (I want the DX crop for wildlife purposes), in part because he actually acknowledged its ergonomic (again, to me) shortcomings relative to the D300 while politely pointing out the advantages.
    In contrast the regular rep would routinely mock and belittle anyone wanting a D300(s) replacement and had the habit of responding to inquiries about short DX primes with a fascinating blend of obfuscation and condescension ("We already HAVE a 16/2.8! Oh, you mean a non-fisheye? Well, will you buy a million of them? Because no one else wants anything like that.") And so forth. The man has a positive talent for making people not want to buy or continue with Nikon. Twit. Or maybe he's actually sticking to policy from higher up (in which case my response is "Twits") while the new guy is some sort of maverick.

    If this Df drops to around 2kUSD I'll consider it. It seems like it would be nice to have for my motley collection of non-AF lenses, and no I wouldn't want D800-level pixel density for those.
     
  368. > I am not sure where my "anger" meter is right now (Df instead of D400, arrgghhh). I wanted a D400 also to put on my 200-400 and 300-800. While most of my equipment is Nikon, I have been shooting with a Sony 70-400 on A57 for about a year. I just purchased a 24 MP, 12 FPS, cropped frame A77 for sports and feeling pretty good about my decision right now.
     
  369. The good news:
    (1) Prices will drop.
    (2) D4 image quality at low light is better than D3s, and I love the D3s.
    (3) Low light, high ISO images will be SPECTACULAR!

    (4) Number 3 above means having to resort to a flash MUCH LESS FREQUENTLY.
    (5) Number 3 above means having to use a tripod MUCH LESS FREQUENTLY.
    (6) Unless you are into action photography, the FPS and AF speeds really are not going to matter at all.
    I really do see it being touted as a consumer grade D4, but with a retro look and feel. Analogies with the D700 are going to be made. I think that it will sell. I hope that the demand is not too high, however, so that the price falls quickly into the realm of what is reasonable.
    The leaked Amazon price, that is, is simply FAR TOO HIGH for me to consider at this time. As Michael said, it might make sense at around $2,000.
    There is a lot of competition now for full-frame cameras. I do think that that will drive prices down, and I do think that those who buy this camera are going to love shooting it: more shots per card, lower download and processing time, less need for tripod, less need for flash, etc.--if one has no problem with a 16 mp sensor, and I definitely do not. I have the D800E and the D3s right now, and it is SIMPLY MORE FUN to shoot the D3s. This will be even better.
    I wouldn't sell my D800E for it, but it sure would complement the D800E very nicely. I WOULD sell my D3s for it, since I do not really need the fast AF or high FPS.
    This thing is going to blow the megapixel fixation right out of the water. It will be a dream to shoot and process, and THAT IS WHAT PURE PHOTOGRAPHY IS ALL ABOUT!

    For strolling around at dusk, this is going to be a dream to shoot, untethered from tripod and flash.
    --Lannie
     
  370. My question is would you pay this price for these specs if it was in a typical modern Nikon DSLR body? Seems like quite a premium just to have a retro look.​
    the key is the D4 sensor in a more compact body. as a D3s owner, i love love love that camera but it's a drag to lug that big hunk of metal around, esp. when combined with the 24-70 and/or 70-200. so, i see the DF as a viable alternative for low-light shooting, travel and PJ work which can be accomplished with primes. i've been close to pulling the trigger on Oly and Fuji mirrorless bodies for a while now, but two things have stopped me: the smaller sensors, not in terms of image quality and dynamic range so much as high-ISO limitations, and the reinvestment in lenses which would cost thousands to get the same functionality i currently have with my nikon gear.
    not having to spend 3-4x the cost of the camera on lenses and being able to use lenses i already own, is a HUGE plus for me, and mitigates the camera body cost somewhat, since any investment into another system would just give me the same functionality i have now--actually slightly lesser performance, except for video-- at a cost of $4-$5 grand, all in and fully kitted-out. i've done the math, as it were, and i don't think i'd be satisfied with kit lenses--less so with the fuji than the oly, so i'd be looking at all those expensive primes in either case. the Sony A7 likewise doesnt appeal to me because the lens selection for it right now is bare-bones, and even if it was fleshed-out, would also require considerable investment over and above the cost of a camera body.
    i may get a discounted x100 with the new firmware in the meantime until the FD prices come down to earth a bit. also not raring at the bit to be an early adopter, just in case the FD has the same shutter issues as the d600 o_O.
    @Andrew, the reason i wouldnt get a d800 instead is that a) i simply dont need all of those megapixels 90% of the time, and b) my ideal camera is something lighter and smaller than the D3s with the same functionality, or close to it. i dont want to have to do extra work in post- to downsample, and i shoot way too much to make that practical. i would like to sometimes have more leeway to crop, but i'm a little leery of bloated files. plus, the d800 is a brick and runs counter to the smaller, lighter, more compact trend.
    You make good points about what Nikon could have done, but unfortunately, complaining about something rarely produces results. i think we will see the price drop fairly soon, i.e., within a year, as nikon may have overestimated the market for a $2800 camera with less features than lower-priced cameras.
     
  371. the key is the D4 sensor in a more compact body.​
    Amen to that.
    Plus, whatever it winds up costing after prices have settled down, it won't cost $6,000 like the D4 does. Of course it will not do all that the D4 (or D3s) will do, but the question is whether one needs the high FPS and the great AF of the D3s and D4. If one does need those things, this is not one's camera. It one does not need all that, one might find this to be what one really needs--and likes to shoot. We shall see.
    I have emphasized what is fun to shoot because it is great to be able to get great shots without lugging so much around: camera, lenses, tripod, flash. Sometimes it is nice to just get out the door with a great camera and one good lens, with a fully charged battery and one big card. I love wandering around with just one lens at a time, sometimes a zoom, sometimes a prime.
    It has always been astonishing to me what becomes possible when one can turn up the ISO even on a bright day. The shutter speed becomes so high that one literally does not need a tripod in daytime shooting, and as it gets darker one often (not always, of course) does not need the flash. That is what I call "fun." Nikon calls it "pure." The D3s is great for that, but it is heavy, and for me it is overkill, but I love it anyway. I am sure that I would love the D4 even more--if I could afford it.
    That is, I base my expectation on having used the D3s, which has 12 mp. I am sure that the situation is better all around with the D4, which has 16 mp. (I have not shot it.)
    A poor man's D4, a better D700--well, maybe after the prices have sagged substantially, assuming the $2795 was a "reliable leak." For me that is far too high. I will have to wait, since I know that I will never be able to afford the D4--and it is frankly more than I need.
    I'm looking forward to seeing what people say about the Df after they have shot it awhile.
    [Can you believe this thread?!]
    --Lannie
     
  372. It needs to REALLY perform well. I have no problem with the knobs on the top. Once you know where they are, it would be faster for me than needing to dive into camera menus to make changes. Does the back LCD have Live View ? Can the viewfinder actually focus a fast lens ?
    If Nikon listened to what some people said they missed on the classic cameras, and tried to give it to them with this, they might have something. But, of course, the price will have to drop for it to really sell.
    They said the smallest Full Frame or was it lightest ? Does that mean THEIR smallest or lightest or the INDUSTRY smallest or lightest ?
     
  373. I was only three years ahead, seems like nikon listened: I predicted the d600 in 2010 and also the coming retro DF...Remember the crap I had to put up on that thread then, Shun (and numerous others) ?
    http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00WxrD
     
  374. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Leslie, I am glad it was you who brought up the thread from 2010. I just took a look at it and I sure stand by everything I wrote back then. If I were calling the shots at Nikon, there would never be any FM3a, F6, retro S2 rangefinder or any retro DSLR. Of course, the small number of people who are attracted to such products are very glad that I am not the one calling the shots at Nikon.
    Check out the price for the F6. Even though very few people are buying new F6 in these days, its price has gone way up, so was the FM3a in the used market after it was discontinued. These are botique products catered to collectors and a small group of well heeled customers. Supply is limited to maintain a high price point. Those who expect prices to go down will be very disappointed.
     
  375. Leslie, your $1600 wished for price tag would really help ! You missed by $1000.
     
  376. No problem Shun, I do think the coming DF is overpriced, but the d600 was/is a good buy, except for the hyped up mirror/oil problem. Some are drooling over the DF though...Hope it will be a success for nikon...