Nikon clarifies full frame policy

Discussion in 'News' started by wigwam jones, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Nikon_clarifies_full_frame_policy_news_115110.html

    UK magazine "Amateur Photographer" has a short write-up about Nikon's policies
    regarding the future of a 'full frame' dSLR camera. Click on the link to read
    more.
     
  2. It would have been swell if Jeremy Gilbert "clarifie(d)" whether Nikon would ever produce another professional-quality DX lens to supplement the only two such lenses Nikon has in production.
     
  3. ",,,Nikon has never ruled out the development of a full-frame digital SLR, but has no immediate launch plans..."

    Tanslation: "We'd love to compete with Canon, but we just don't have the resources to do it".
     
  4. "if the firm decided to make such a camera it would first need to meet the appropriate quality-to-price ratio. In other words, it would have to be the right quality at a price able to compete in the market."

    Yet the 1DsII and M8 are steady sellers. Sounds like Nikon is trying to convince themselves, not us.
     
  5. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    What does the M8 have to do with this? It's not full frame. And nobody has seen real sales figures on it yet.
     
  6. Well, to me AP write-up do not qualify as a clarification on Nikon FF policy. It is not clear
    where Jeremy Gilbert, essentially a spin doctor, is employed. Is he a head of the marketing at
    Nikon UK, subsidiary distribution channel; or he is the marketing guru at Nikon headquarters
    in Japan. Usually important statements are made by the company CEO or made public in
    white papers, etc.
     
  7. The M8 has to do with "the right quality at a price able to compete in the market." Those things can be irrelevant, if the product is something that people WANT to buy. This statement is an excuse, not a strategy.
     
  8. ",,,Nikon has never ruled out the development of a full-frame digital SLR, but has no immediate launch plans..."

    Translation: Sony is still working on a full frame sensor for us, but their R&D hasn't got anything that works just yet. Maybe next year...
     
  9. what would a ff d3x cost? 8 to 10 grand? who is gonna pay that kind of cash? only a handful of professionals who need high speed & huge files - fashion/studio advertising photographers. that means at least 22mp. <p>
    today, right now, fashion photographers have the choice between an existing canon ff cam (most likely soon to be upgraded to 22mp), hassy's h2, h3d, contax645, rollei 6008 af, mamiya 645 afd, rz67 proIId and soon the announced pentax 645d, rollei/leaf/sinar hy6 and mamiya zd with like 6 different mf backs.
    all of the above, except the announced pentax/hy6 cams are working systems with huge lens choices and rentable all over the world.
    why would nikon want to enter that race at this stage in time? <p>
    no-one is going to thank them for investing millions into a ff system - but everyone will rip them to shreds if it's more expensive than canon, has bugs, sensor problems, outdated lenses not up to the task of a ff sensor and a software that is too slow and cumbersome to develop 1000 raw files and make jpegs in 2 hours time to send to the ad agency. <p>
    i'd bet my house there aren't 2 people on this board that would shell out 9 grand for a ff nikon.
     
  10. ",,,Nikon has never ruled out the development of a full-frame digital SLR, but has no immediate launch plans..."

    Translation, now that Sony is developing their own line of dSLRs, we're even less confident we'll see a sensor to compete with Canon's full-frames anytime soon. But gosh, we'd really like to have one.
     
  11. "However, Gilbert stressed that just because a camera is 'full frame' it does not necessarily mean that the quality of images it produces surpasses those of current Nikon DX models."

    Translation: The full frame Kodak sensors we used on our prototype models were really crappy.
     
  12. From whom would Nikon buy a full frame sensor that competes with Canon full frame cameras?

    Nikon does not make sensors, as do Canon and Sony. Nikon has been fully dependent on others to provide sensors, most recently Sony has provided all Nikon's DSLR sensors. Now that Sony has bought its way into the DSLR market by taking over the Minolta mount and that Sony has said they want to be one of the top two DSLR companies, Nikon is not likely to get any full frame sensor from Sony should they produce one. Nikon may even be trying to find a new source of APS-sized sensors in case Sony decides to keep all new sensors to itself.
     
  13. Sony will probably sell it's full frame sensors to anyone and anybody. Sony sells their low end sensors to both Canon and Nikon and yet is number two in the compact camera market.

    Even if Sony refuses to sell Nikon the bigger sensor. Nikon has made sensors in the past, The LBCAST.
     
  14. Kodak makes a FF sensor, don't they? I'd bet they'd sell them to Nikon.
     
  15. "Sony will probably sell it's full frame sensors to anyone and anybody. Sony sells their low end sensors to both Canon and Nikon and yet is number two in the compact camera market."

    That was BEFORE Sony got into the DSLR business. They certainly don't sell their sensors to their competitors in consumer and pro camcorders, or cellphones, or security cams.

    "Kodak makes a FF sensor, don't they? I'd bet they'd sell them to Nikon."

    I bet they would. At a competitive price? With competitive quality? In sufficient numbers? Hard to say.
     
  16. But Kodak got out of the dSLR bidness, didn't they? They do sell sensors to Leica (M8) and Hasselblad, etc. They appear to be in that bidness.
     
  17. If you just can't wait, find a Kodak SLR/n. At around $2000 on the used market, for a low-use
    body, they're a steal.
     
  18. You'd be better off with a used or refurbuished EOS 5D. Much better camera.
     
  19. Also Philips made full frame sensors for the Contax N.

    "That was BEFORE Sony got into the DSLR business. They certainly don't sell their sensors to their competitors in consumer and pro camcorders, or cellphones, or security cams."

    A lot of off brand security cams use Sony sensors.
     
  20. I still like the 1.5x magnification with the current nikon sensor. especially with the larger zooms and telephotos. how much would my 600mm f4 cost if it was a 900mm f4?
     
  21. sony and canon are both essentially run by business people. If they have the means and resources to provide parts like sensors to other companys, then they will certainly do so. They probably gain quite a large profit margin from such sales. Are the sony made sensors badged as 'sony' when they are put into a Nikon DSLR? No. These business guys understand that the sensor is only a small part of the equation. People buy brands for various reasons, prestige, reliability, accessories available etc.. Why wouldnt sony keep selling sensors to nikon, even if they are full frame? Personally i use a nikon, not to say that i am brand-loyal, but i am very familiar with their lens cahracteristics and body handling, and quite frankly i dont like the feel of the canons. The image quality comparison between say a 5d and a d200 is marginal at BEST.
     
  22. God how about the amount of advertising on that webpage! Like being slapped in the face with a wet camera.!
     
  23. "A lot of off brand security cams use Sony sensors."

    I don't think so, Sam. If you can, please name three models.
     
  24. Sony makes a huge number of sensors used in security cams, Jacob. In fact, there is a Sony sensor shortage at the moment, and security cam makers are scrambling to source from other vendors.

    http://www.security.globalsources.com/gsol/I/CCTV-color/a/9000000084788.htm

    "Makers are confident that they are past the challenge of CCD sensors shortage. To ensure the stable supply of this key building block, makers are looking for alternative sources to Sony, which is the key supplier of CCD sensors."
     
  25. Sony will sell their CCD sensors to anyone who wants to buy them:

    http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/ccd.html

    When Sony had a problem with a flaky sensor recently, these competing camera models were recalled - all with the Sony CCD imaging chip in them:

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1128958202.html

    Fact is, Sony makes imaging chips for everything that uses them, more or less, and sells to all comers. They may have been eclipsed in production since 2004, but at that time, they were the world's largest producer of CCD sensors (there may be more recent data, I just didn't find it with a cursory Google). There has also been speculation that Sony will keep the 'best' of its chips for its own Sony brand cameras, but so far, Sony claims that isn't the case, and no one has been able to point to a Sony camera model that has an imaging sensor that is not also available for sale on the open market by other digicam makers, to the best of my knowledge.
     
  26. "I don't think so, Sam. If you can, please name three models."

    http://www.2mcctv.com/product_info-SecurityCameras-ColorDayNight-MeritLiLinPIH80.html

    http://www.2mcctv.com/product_info---SurveiluxSVSC55.html

    http://www.2mcctv.com/product_info-SecurityCameras-ColorDayNight-SamsungSHC721N.html
     
  27. At the present stage of the market, there is no way that Sony would justify developing a full frame sensor to keep to itself. Maybe in ten years, when they have a fully fledged line of lenses that can compete with the Nikon and Canon offerings across the board things might be different. But for now, it would be vital to lower unit cost by diluting the fixed costs of R&D and the fabrication line over as large a production volume as possible in order for Sony (or their customers) to have cameras that can begin to compete with Canon's full frame offerings.
     
  28. I wish fuji and nikon would get into bed together. Nikon bodies with FF fuji sensors would be sweet.
     
  29. "I wish fuji and nikon would get into bed together. Nikon bodies with FF fuji sensors would be sweet."

    In my office, we've had very similar discussions. Nikon needs to improve their standing relationship with either Fuji or Sony, put either Fuji or Sony sensors inside the Nikon pro-grade bodies. They can let Fuji or Sony, whichever, take the consumer-grade bodies and Nikon build the upper-end bodies so that there's not an overlap, provided of course that Fuji or Sony want to continue with their own dSLR line.

    Bottom line is that, since Canon has the resources to develop their own sensors, if Nikon wants to continue to remain competitive and to continue depending on other companies to provide them with sensors, they really can't afford to depend on companies that they are also in direct competition with (as they are currently with Fuji and Sony). I don't want to see Nikon continue to lag behind, because outside of the sensor issue, Nikon continues to make some of the best photo gear on the market. But to survive, they need to establish a business relationship where they are in total cooperation with their partner, not competition.
     
  30. To this I say, "who cares?" I don't care how big the sensor is, I care about performance. For that matter, I'm sick of everyone using lens lenth as a way of defining the field of view and magnification. Spotting scops and binocs give field of view @100yds and mag, i.e. 10x or 12x. These are products of optics, not "28mm" or "70mm" . We have become lazy in our references.
    What we really want is quality! So think of this:
    1) dynamic range greater than the human eye by 2 stops at each end.
    2) more resolution; beat film scan at 4000 lines on any dimension.
    3) less noise; ok, no noise at any iso.
    4) better color
    5) better white balance
    6) more frames per second, like 8 at full resolution

    So, if a sensor provided all of this, would you care what size it is? I would rather Nikon devote their R&D efforts to these areas than to making a sensor larger.
     
  31. "",,,Nikon has never ruled out the development of a full-frame digital SLR, but has no
    immediate launch plans.."

    Nikon has been saying this since August 2004 when they did the NDA tour with the D2X.
     
  32. "To this I say, 'who cares?'"

    the more these companies compete with each other, the more we end users benefit.
     
  33. Translation: Sony is still working on a full frame sensor for us, but their R&D hasn't got anything that works just yet.
    Wrong.
    Nikon execs didn't like the price point they'd have to sell the camera at: They thought it was too high. This is according to my conversations with Steve Heiner of Nikon USA in 2006.
     
  34. Full frame OR tilt-shift lenses that are wide angle at whatever sensor size is what I need. I'd like a FF Nikon, but they don't have but one antique 28mm TS lens, and honestly, their camera controls suck compared to Canon. Hate to say it.
     
  35. Aaron Dougherty;

    That's purely a subjective assumption. That's like asking what the best color, or best car, or best musical group is. No definitive answer for all people. It's a choice.
     
  36. jtk

    jtk

    Somebody should introduce something full-frame that you can stick in your camera and make captures, then replace with another when the previous one's full.

    Accumulate these filled whatevers in your kit until you want to post process and make prints. Ideally these whatevers would cost less than $10 each and be available at Walmart.

    Oh, and they should be usable in both Nikon and Canon.

    :)
     
  37. And call it "silicon film" :)
     
  38. Translation: "We'd love to compete with Canon, but we just don't have the resources to do it".
    Bob, Can you explain to us the subtle flavors of crow?
     
  39. Folks whined during the Nikon F era about having to remove the camera just to load film; then later the F2 was born. Much with Nikon is about the lenses. They studied alot of other designs before the F was born.
     
  40. >>Translation: "We'd love to compete with Canon, but we just don't have the resources to do it".<<

    "Bob, Can you explain to us the subtle flavors of crow?"

    Ellis, can I assume you alerted Bob to your post to him in this four month old thread, or were you just attempting a cheap shot t his expense behind his back?

    It's clear to most people that Nikon DIDN'T have the tevhnological resources for YEARS to compete with Canon, and they're still dependent on the technological prowess of others ... a fully-paid trip that Nikon provided to you notwithstanding.
     
  41. And yet after 9 months its out with D3 which compete really well with MarkIII DS in IQ area. Further more 1 year after this discussion started it comes out with D700.
    I am just waiting for someone to hand this to me or waiting for Fuji full frame version
     

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