Nikon announced a free cleaning and free shutter replacement for all D600 owners.

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by derek_thornton|1, Feb 26, 2014.


  1. Derek, please excuse me for interrupting your post and add some background information.
    Both Nikon Europe and Nikon USA have issued a new service advisory, offering free cleaning and free shutter assembly replacement, including shipping cost, on those D600 bodies that are affected by tiny dust spots on their sensors. This free service includes D600 cameras that have expired warranties.
    Those service advisories are carefully worded, e.g. the word "oil" never appears on either one of them.
    Shun Cheung
    Derek's original post follows:

    I bought a refurbished D600 last year. It gave me problems with dust and oil from 4000 to 7000 actuations. At 7000 actuations I wet cleaned it and it has been perfect ever since. Is a matter of fact I have had less issues with dust in my D600 than I had with my D200 and D300.

    Should I send my camera in anyway?
     
  2. If you're concerned that there might still be an issue by all means do send it in, but if it is working fine then maybe you'd just use Nikon's resources unnecessarily. Maybe you should just wait until the camera has been used for a while and if it needs a tune-up and cleaning at some point, then ask them to replace the shutter as well, if that will give you peace of mind. Also if you resell the camera to another user later on, it might give the new buyer reassurance that the shutter has been replaced, but still, if it works fine why not use it until there is a problem and then see what needs to be done once a problem occurs.
     
  3. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    There is an old saying: if it ain't broke, ....
     
  4. Oddly enough - no mentioning of oil spots. This FREE cleaning and shutter replacement comes right at the heels of a law firm filing a class action law suit: http://www.zimmreed.com/Nikon-D600-Spot-Issue/64550/
    Nikon could have saved themselves a lot of bad PR and loss of customer confidence had they taken this step much earlier.
    @Derek: there are some who had the shutter replaced just to have the problem re-occur. So I would follow Shun's advice. There doesn't seem to be an expiration date on the service advisory - so you can always send it in if the problem resurfaces.
     
  5. Shun.
    That is a saying to live by.
    -Cheers
     
  6. pge

    pge

    Derek, when it comes time to sell your camera it will likely be worth more on the used market if you have Nikon give you this new and improved shutter.
     
  7. Nikon could have saved themselves a lot of bad PR and loss of customer confidence had they taken this step much earlier.
    Perhaps, but in the case of users like the OP who don't have a problem with their D600's, the service advisory may motivate many of them to send them in to repair even if there is no issue with the camera. If, say 50k D600 users do have this issue, does it warrant 1 million users to send their cameras in to costly shutter replacement when in fact there may not be any issue with their cameras? At which point is it no longer sufficient to evaluate each camera on a case by case basis as they are taken to service and repair them when necessary rather than ask ALL the cameras to be sent in for replacement of the shutter that in SOME cameras causes this issue? I don't think there is any clear-cut solution to such a problem. The internet amplification effect is really a two-sided sword. However, I do agree that some users who have had to send their cameras in 2-3 times before the problem is finally resolved (and in some cases it was not), there was a real issue with customer service and I can understand that this is not a good situation since there is no guarantee that the repair is effective. So it would have perhaps been better to test the cameras for a longer time before release, or cease production at the point where there were clear signs of an issue and in repairing defective units, do extensive testing of the effectiveness of the repair. On the other hand if Nikon service takes 3000 exposures with the camera after repair to ascertain that the repair is effective, the user might complain that the shutter has been used too much ...
     
  8. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Ever since the D600 dust/oil story broke just a month or two since its introduction: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00axxj,
    we have had a lot of discussion about this issue. Clearly, a higher percentage of D600 have such issue than what we would consider "normal." It is unclear to me whether it is indeed a serious issue for most D600 owners or part of it is the result of more people checking their D600 due to all the internet negative publicity. We have heard stories that people have their D600 going back for multiple sensor cleaning or even more than one shutter replacements; we have also heard stories that some people have absolutely no abnormal problems with their D600 at all.
    Remember that almost two years ago, there was also a lot of internet chatter about the D800's left AF issue, and some people even suggested that Nikon should recall the D800. I happen to have used a D800 loaner for 3 months and I have owned a D800E since June 2012. Both cameras have zero AF issue.
    I am all for Nikon thorouhly fixing all cameras that are out of the norm, but why would I send a perfectly working D800E (or D600, D610, D800 ...) back to Nikon for "repair"? They can't possibly make it any more perfect. Even though that doesn't cost me anything for shipping and "repair":
    • I lose usage of that camera for some time, perhaps 2, 3 weeks while it is en route to/from Nikon.
    • The camera could get damaged or lost during shipping.
    • Nikon repair could poentially screw up a perfectly working camera so that it has new issues after this unnecessay "repair." Most likey Nikon will be reponsible for such problems, but I am merely generating headache for myself.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
  9. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Derek, when it comes time to sell your camera it will likely be worth more on the used market if you have Nikon give you this new and improved shutter.​
    Why?
    First of all, Nikon never says that any replacement shutter is improved. That is why in some rare occasions, people have had their D600 gone in multiple times with more than one shutter replacement.
    And Nikon does not post any time limit for this service advistory. Whoever buys Derek's used D600 could send it in themselve for another shutter replacement, if that is necessary under this service advisory.
    However, I seriously doubt that Nikon is just going to blindly replace the shutter on every D600 that is sent to them. Clearly there are plenty of D600 that have no problem at all; e.g. our own Matt Laur has one of those. In that case Nikon would just send it right back to you, perhaps after some cleaning. In other words, you are merely wasting everybody time and effort, including your own.
    Of course, that is what Nikon repair service has been doing all along, anyway. The only difference is that the warranty period for this particular problem on the D600 is now extended to essentially forever.
     
  10. Ilkka, not to get into a lengthy debate over this - enough has been written already about this anyway - but the advisory still does not even mention the oil spots which IMO where the real issue and much harder to clean than some dust (even if the "debris" the shutter threw on the sensor was excessive in some cases). To add, there are many nuances between "denying there is a problem" and a "full-out recall of all cameras". I believe we can agree that early on announcing a free shutter replacement for anyone experiencing the "oil spots" would have smoothed over the internet amplification effect in a jiffy and gone a long way in increasing customer satisfaction and confidence. The fact that this advisory still doesn't mention the full issue, comes more than a year after the issue was revealed, and appears forced by the filing of a class action law suit gives this the feel being told to close the stable door after the horse has already bolted
     
  11. Does this, or rather do they, reset the shutter-count?
    If you've got a high milage D600, maybe 130000 frames and after shutter replacement and some use, it reads 4000 and you sell it, is that 'fair' to the new purchaser?
    Not quite the same as a car with a new engine after 150000 miles, but not a new gearbox....but similar!
     
  12. pge

    pge

    Why?
    First of all, Nikon never says that any replacement shutter is improved.​
    Some things can just be assumed. Given that this is Nikon's second shot at this shutter, I don't think this is a total stretch.
    I was just making the point that if your classified ad stated that your D600 included the new, and presumably improved, shutter your ad may be more attractive than others. At any rate you would at least be satisfying those who suspect that you may just be trying to off-load your problem D600 onto them. I am not trying to be controversial, I am just raising the point.
     
  13. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I believe we can agree that early on announcing a free shutter replacement for anyone experiencing the "oil spots" would have smoothed over the internet amplification effect in a jiffy and gone a long way in increasing customer satisfaction and confidence.​
    Dieter, I, for one, don't think so.
    On the web, there are plenty of people who would complain about Nikon regardless of what they do. Thom Hogan is a very good example in the last 2, 3 years, and there are many who have followed suit. Those people complain about everything and every time.
    The problem is that a shutter replacement is not a guaranteed fix for the problem. Not that I completely believe in them, but there are reports that people have had more than one shutter replacements. And there is a lot of gray areas between "normal" dust collection on a sensor and having a dust "problem."
    I have also read that it could even be Nikon's competition that is fanning the flames on this D600 dust/oil issue. Since there is no way we can verify every claim about D600 oil/dust, repair, failed repair ..., including those who accuse Nikon's competition, I can only comment generally that I take everything I read on the web with a little grain of salt, unless it is a very trust-worthy source.
    This new service advisory is likely the reaction to a couple of class-action law suits on the D600 dust/oil issue. I am no lawyer (thankfully), but since this D600 isn't exactly causing death and injury, I wonder what D600 owners can gain from such law suit. Typically it is no more than literally a few dollars. It is usually the lawyers who collect a lot of fees. And in the long run, if you send them a D600 5 years from now, Nikon can always tell you that your problem is not covered by this service advisory. It'll be up to you to argue with them.
    As I said earlier, first of all Nikon is not mentioning "oil" at all, and they have been cleaning D600 sensors and in some cases replacing shutters or even replace D600 with new D610 bodies. Other than extending the warranty to forever for this particular problem, there isn't a whole lot of changes.
     
  14. First of all, Nikon never says that any replacement shutter is improved.
    Some things can just be assumed. Given that this is Nikon's second shot at this shutter, I don't think this is a total stretch.​
    Not inconceivable that early replacements were using the same shutter and that later (or now) an "improved" version (D610 shutter?) was installed. Nikon knows and it is very likely that they won't be talking about it. Assumptions can easily be made - it's the verification part that might prove a lot more difficult. Maybe someone will take a few cameras apart and have a closer look?
     
  15. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Dieter, it is not entirely clear to me that you can simply put the D610's shutter onto a D600, and of course there are even claims that the D610 also has dust/oil issue, although few seem to believe in that. Again, I wouldn't necessarily believe in everything I read on the web.
    But if Nikon indeed didn't have an improved shutter for replacement until later on, and you think they should have announced this service advisory a years ago, what exactly do you think they should have done back then when they didn't have sufficient replacement parts (perhaps no trouble-free parts at all) to deal with a massive service advisory?
    It is very easy for us to sit in front of a computer (or iPad, etc.) and type what Nikon should have done, blah, blah, blah. It is always easy to be a Monday-morning, armed chair quarterback.
     
  16. I do assume that every d600 send to nikon following this notice will receive new, improved shutter unit. If (like some responders suggest) nikon will inspect the cameras and decide which need replacement which don't and for replacement use the same shutter - then nikon needs new management.
     
  17. @Shun
    I bought a refurbished D600 about two months ago, and I absolutely love it. The strange thing is that the camera had zero shutter activations when I got it (and the price was fantastically low). I haven't seen any problems. It is a backup for my D800E that I need for two weddings in March, so no way am I sending it back now. Maybe later if I see a problem. But what do you think the chances are that Nikon began replacing the shutters in all refurbs, or at least some, as mine was new? This camera is so good I don't know that I would complain too much about a little extra cleaning.
     
  18. Dieter, it is not entirely clear to me that you can simply put the D610's shutter onto a D600​
    I did not make the claim that this can be done at all. I stated that no one except Nikon knows what that replacement shutter actually is - and they very likely won't tell. Since the D610 and D600 share the same body, gutting and replacing whatever necessary should be possible - it may be more than just the shutter assembly though.
    What should they have done in December of 2012? Stop production (at that point likely not more than 150,000 units), fix the problem, come out with the improved product. Deal with those already sold by cleaning them for free as often as it takes - and deal with repairing those units (an estimated 20% though that is by no means a solid number) once the solution was found.
    Again, I wouldn't necessarily believe in everything I read on the web.​
    Good advice - that I am following already before it was given.
    Re: class action lawsuit - I agree that the lawyers take the lion's share; D600 owners won't get the desired refund or small additional fee to trade up their D600 to a D610 - that's wishful thinking. In this case, filing the lawsuit seems to have prompted Nikon to act though - and over what essentially amounts to an extended/indefinite limited warranty and apparently a shipping fee refund to all those who had send in D600 previously.
    As I said earlier, first of all Nikon is not mentioning "oil" at all​
    You edited Derek's original post at around the same time I posted my initial response - so you may or may not have seen my post which was posted when Derek's OP was unedited. I edited my post when I saw your edit to eliminate the link to the service advisory that you had by then included in the original post.
    In essence, Nikon still doesn't address the issue fully - but the result is what should count for D600 owners.
     
  19. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I do assume that every d600 send to nikon following this notice will receive new, improved shutter unit. If (like some responders suggest) nikon will inspect the cameras and decide which need replacement which don't and for replacement use the same shutter - then nikon needs new management.​
    I am the one who thinks Nikon should inspect every D600 sent their way and only replace the shutter if necessary. I understand that in some cases, they would even replace a D600 with a new D6100.
    If Nikon sets it up so that they automatically replace the shutter or even send someone a brand new D610, they would merely be opening themselves up to abuses. In that case, why wouldn't someone just buy a totally beaten up D600 with huge shutter actuation counts, send it in and expect a new D610 (or at least a new shutter) in return? Or I could just use my D600 like crazy for 2 years, send it in for a new shutter, use it for another 2 years, send it in again ....
    Concerning refurbs, I have had very bad personal experience with Nikon USA refurb lenses: 3 out of 3 were still defective. I have never bought any refurb bodies.
     
  20. the good news is that new D600s are down to around $1500, and this should give prospective buyers confidence that nikon will fix it if the problem develops. price could drop even lower; there's probably a big back-stock.
     
  21. I had dust spots show up at around 500 actuations on my D600 that I was able to clean with a blower. I haven't checked it recently and I rarely shoot under conditions that would reveal dust spots. I'll be checking it tonight.

    The camera has not been heavily used, but I'm inclined to send it in to get the shutter upgrade since my initial problem happened very early.
     
  22. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    What should they have done in December of 2012? Stop production (at that point likely not more than 150,000 units), fix the problem, come out with the improved product. Deal with those already sold by cleaning them for free as often as it takes - and deal with repairing those units (an estimated 20% though that is by no means a solid number) once the solution was found.​
    Dieter, for the sake of argument and the lack of concrete data, let's assume all of your above information is correct, which obviously is a major assumption.
    So Nikon should have stopped production of the D600 (and obviously stop selling them) in December, 2012. Since Nikon finally introduced the D610 in October, 2013: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00c3Jd, I would argue that it took Nikon 10 months after December, 2012 to have a full solution, ready for the market.
    For the sake of argument, just say it took Nikon 6 months to come up with a solution so that based on Dieter's scenario, Nikon had to stop production of the D600 for 6 months, the Canon 6D would have been totally unopposed on the market. In the mean time, there would have been a lot of negative publicity on the D600 and lots of rumors (of course, that is true anyway). I don't think the D600 could have made a comeback 6 (or 10) months later, and Nikon could have lost a lot of market share in the low-end FX market, which both Canon and Nikon are betting on to replace the high-end DX market.
    Clearly there is no easy answer to this situation; there are only a few bad choices. If indeed 4 out of 5 D600 owners have no serious dust/oil problem, IMO Nikon's chosen path is not necessarily a bad one. As long as Nikon finally fixes those D600 that indeed have issues, most people should be ok with it. As I said, for those who build their career on complaining about Nikon (and just about everybody else), they will always find things to complain about.
     
  23. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    The solution: Nikon is making available to all owners of D600 cameras (even if Nikon’s product warranty has expired) this customer-service measure, which includes the inspection, cleaning and replacement of the shutter assembly and related parts of your camera, FREE OF CHARGE as well as the cost of shipping D600 cameras to Nikon and their return to customers. Once again, please understand that regardless of this service, your D600 camera as is the case with all D-SLR cameras, will continue to require normal periodic sensor cleanings.​
    http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Service-And-Support/Service-Advisories/hs309y82/Technical-Service-Advisory-for-Users-of-the-Nikon-D600-Digital-SLR-Camera.html
    That is a quote from Nikon USA's service advisory. I have an e-mail to Nikon USA for clarification on whether a shutter assembly replacement is automatic or not for each D600 sent to them under this service advisory.
     
  24. I sent my camera in for cleaning and an alignment adjustment two weeks ago and it scheduled to be delivered back to me this Thursday according to the tracking number. I just got off the phone with Nikon who informed me that my camera had been cleaned, SHUTTER REPLACED, mirror adjusted, and additional minor adjustments at NO COST TO ME. It was out of warranty. I am grateful that Nikon has stepped up to the plate and fixed my camera. What is important to me is that they fixed the camera not whether they admit denial of the problem. As for as any time limit on the advisory, hell send the camera in, its free shipping both ways. Do it now, not tomorrow, or next week, or even next month. I sent mine in thinks to alerts from this sight. People you have nothing to lose by sending them the camera.
     
  25. Derek, when it comes time to sell your camera it will likely be worth more on the used market if you have Nikon give you this new and improved shutter.​
    Are we spending our time taking photos or doing business by selling secondhand cameras? We should make sure we are true first before we expect Nikon to do so.
    There is an old saying: if it ain't broke, ....​
     
  26. pge

    pge

    But Bahram, the OP asked "Should I send my camera in anyway?"
    My opinion was yes because of resale. I'm not sure what discussion about taking photos would have answered his question. I was just supplying a perspective that might have been useful in his decision making. Obviously the decision is his.
     
  27. Thanks Phil.
     
  28. Bergillions of items are subject to Product Recalls every year on the possibility of something going wrong. The more serious are usually automobile related, bad brakes or a steering linkage problem type thing.
    It it ain't broke...don't fix it....??​
    However, you're soon to be on location on the Moon, and around your neck is a camera that you know for sure others have been having big problems with, but hey yours is OK up to now......isn't it?
    Do you really want to risk it?....Are you feeling lucky?...Your shutter's on 3500 frames...and you know that's when the problems begins to start, you've read the posts.
    What are you going to do the day BEFORE launch?
    Now, if ANYONE is saying the replacement shutters can't be trusted either, Nikon's screwed. You don't sell Ferrari's that, despite being serviced regularly, might not start one morning when you gotta take the pregnant wife to the hospital. However, if Ferrari knew about it, told you, but you chose not to 'Obey' the product re-call....more fool you.
    Now, this is short of a product re-call, 'cos Nikon don't know when it started or the batch numbers affected....but get real. If you think this replacement might make your camera worse...Nikon are going the way of Kodak. RIP.
     
  29. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    If you think this replacement might make your camera worse...​
    Mike, of course letting a repair person touch a perfectly working camera can make it worse. That is why people advice you: if it ain't broke, don't fix it, precisely because things have indeed gotten worse.
    If your camera, be it is D600, D800, D4S ... has problems, by all means get Nikon to fix it, especially it is under warranty. Like my D800E, it is has been working perfectly. There is certainly no way they can make it better. I wouldn't send it in and let them touch it even they pay me $100 to do so.
    That is the problem with these FREE offers, at not cost to the customers; these offers always get abused.
     
  30. pge

    pge

    There is certainly no way they can make it better.​
    I really hate to comment further on this post... beating a dead horse. But...
    Shun, with your D800e that is true. But in this particular case they (Nikon) are offering to "make it better" than it was before. For me, I would not turn down this free offer.
     
  31. I agree with Shun on this - it is not uncommon that something goes wrong in repair (be it whatever, car or camera, or a surgery on a human being - none of these things are entirely safe) and while one thing may be successfully fixed, new problems can be introduced in the repair that didn't exist before. It doesn't matter which company is doing it, the issue is that a human being is doing the repair and people make mistakes. If the unit is perfect as it is, opening it up and putting it back together can make it worse as there can always be wear from using tools and fingers may slip. It is a different situation at the factory as the people who make them do a specific task over and over again whereas a repairman has to be able to fix anything so they have a general training, and with this flexibility comes an increased risk of mistakes. Also if there is a mistake at the factory, the cost of starting over before resellers and shipping have increased the price is much smaller than going back in afterwards.
    f you think this replacement might make your camera worse...
    It's not the shutter itself that may make the camera worse, but taking the camera apart and putting it back together... But perhaps they can take infinite time in this operation ... not!
    Nikon are going the way of Kodak. RIP.
    I'm afraid the "wannabe" Nikons (i.e. companies who would like to be closer to market leader position) haven't gotten even started to think about making a professional service network so to complain about Nikon service you'd first have to get some alternatives interested. ;-) My experience with Nikon service is much better than with some other brands.
     
  32. I will not send my D600 in unless I have an issue. And, I highly doubt I will ever sell it.
    Shun, Nikon's not mentioning oil does not mean it is not there. If it were just dust it could have been blown out, not to mention I could see it with a loupe. I should also mention that this is my second D600, the first refurbished unit was covered in dust/oil. However, it was returned because the viewfinder display was not working. Like I stated earlier my problems lasted from 4,000-7,000 actuations but wet cleaning is not that difficult. I have a feeling that had all D600 owners been a little patient their problems would have cleared after a couple thousand shots too. But, they do not have to be patient.
    I will say the only thing that I dislike about the D600 is the very small AF coverage. For $1500.00 you will never hear me complain.
     
  33. I would argue that it took Nikon 10 months after December, 2012 to have a full solution, ready for the market.​
    Also a big assumption - like mine. No one knows when Nikon decided to replace the D600 with a D610 and when they actually started to solve the shutter/oil issue. I could play devil's advocate and say that even the D7000 had some oil splatter issues - but from what I recall, the D600 was worse. In addition - if that oil problem never showed up in the pre-production models (which certainly should get more than a few thousands clicks on them), then the issue was somewhere on the production line and not necessarily requiring a solution in form of a new shutter (though that might have been ultimately the way Nikon chose to go - for whatever reason). It's all speculation and all that counts in the end is the result - D600 owners have a means to get the issue "fixed" now for free. Case closed.
     
  34. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I will not send my D600 in unless I have an issue.​
    IMO that is a wise choice. Derek, if your D600 is indeed "perfect" or anywhere close to that, sending it to Nikon will, if you are lucky, change nothing. If you are unlucky, they can potentially mess it up or it gets damaged in transit.
    Shun, Nikon's not mentioning oil does not mean it is not there.​

    Exactly. I think Nikon's service advisory is very carefully drafted, possibly reviewed by multiple lawyers so that they won't get into any unnecessary legal trouble. The fact that "oil" is never mentioned indicates that Nikon still hasn't revealed everything yet.
    This service advisory is designed to fix those D600 that indeed have problems. If Dieter's 20% figure is anywhere close to reality, there are clearly quite a few D600 that still need repair, and at least I am glad that Nikon is finally taking care of things, although fairly late. However, there are far more perfectly fine D600 that don't require any repair. Sending those in anyway is merely wasting everybody's time and resources.
    Additionally, there doesn't seem to be any time limit to Nikon's service advisory. If your camera is currently fine, there is no rush to send it in immediately. If some problem that is covered develops in another year or two, it won't be too late to get it fixed, for free, then. I don't think the availability of parts is an issue in the next several years.
    I will say the only thing that I dislike about the D600 is the very small AF coverage. For $1500.00 you will never hear me complain.​
    The thing is that at $2750, the Df has exactly the same small AF coverage, but those who are fans of the Df are more than willing to forgive it.
    P.S. I am still waiting for an official response from Nikon USA on whether any D600 sent to them under this service advisory will automatically receive a shutter replacement.
     
  35. I've done a few minor dust cleanings and one wet cleaning on my perfectly functional D600. The last thing I want to do is subject it to dozens of high-G impacts during a round trip to/from Nikon, have a technician tear it down, and introduce a new highly complex assembly of moving parts that may actually misbehave later when I need it to work, all so I can fend off something that doesn't seem to be a problem.

    So unless I see some unexpectedly bad shutter-related behavior out of the body in the near term, this offer is appreciated - but not something I'd do.
     
  36. I just wonder how much this is going to swamp Nikon's service. I know they have been farming out some repairs, and that may well be the case with these units, but I'm glad I don't need to send anything in for repair at the moment.
     
  37. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    My e-mail inquiry to Nikon USA was whether a shutter assembly replacement would be automatic under this service advisory. Their reply merely repeats what the service advisory has already stated in almost identical wording. I am sure that service advisory was carefully drafted by lawyers. As far as I am concerned, there is some ambiguity built in, on purpose.
    Nikon should be concerned that they would indeed be swamped by people seeking a free shutter replacement. For example, if someone already has 50k actuations on their D600 (probably very few D600 have reached that mark after at most just over a year), even though they have no dust/oil issues, they may feel that a new shutter can extend the normal life for their camera and increase its resale value. They have all the rights to take advantage of this free offer although not really in the spirit of it.
    As a result, Nikon is leaving a little room for interpretations on this advisory so that if they are indeed swamped by repairs under this advisory, they can start skipping shutter replacements on the units that don't absolutely need one.
    So unless you have a D600 that has some very unusually high shutter actuations for something that is definitely under a year and half old, and your camera is "perfect" as Derek the OP describes or something close to that, my suggestion is still: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." As far as resale value goes, it can cut different ways. For example:
    • Some buyer may indeed be happy that a particular D600 has had a shutter replacement.
    • Another buyer may feel that a D600 has problems and that was why it needed a shutter replacement. They may steer clear from any D600 with a replaced shutter.
    If I were selling a D600, my answer to any seller would be: this D600 is perfect as it is, why would I get a shutter replacement for no good reason? Have you heard that "if it ain't broke ..."?
    On the other hand, if you happen to have a D600 that has persistent dust/oil issues, by all means send it back to Nikon for repair, but now, you are no longer under time pressure to get that done while the original warranty is still in effect.
     
  38. Shun, you're right. The open-ended aspect of this advisory does make a big difference. I guess in a year's time they can choose to end it?
    Funnily enough I was given an old D50 the other week with a broken screen. Inside was an original En-El3...and it's on the 'wanted' list. Can I get it replaced? I couldn't find a end-date on that service advisory.
     
  39. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Mike, I don't think Nikon can just terminate a service advisory. Essentially they are admitting that there is somethng out of the norm with some of the D600's dust issues, and they are responsible for fixing them out of warranty. That responsibility is essentially forever, but the real end is the availability of parts.
    For example, the EN-EL3 was replaced by the EN-EL3e, which can be used to replace the original non-e EN-EL3. However, after November 2011, you can no longer sell EN-EL3e-based products in Japan. In other words, that original EN-EL3 advisory/replacement program is good as long as there are still EN-EL3e available for replacement. After some "reasonable amount of time," when there is no more replacement EN-EL3e available, Nikon is not going to spend lots of money to restart the manufacture facility to make you one more EN-EL3e.
    Concerning the D600 and its possible shutter replacement, I would imagine that Nikon will have spare parts for at least another 5 to 10 years. Eventually they'll stop making that shutter and parts will run out. What exactly is a "reasonabe amount of time" is open to interpretations.
     
  40. I returned my D 600 to my retailer after 13 months of ownership as I had given up on continuous oil spot issues on the sensor. I got a new D 610 in exchange. Unfortunately, the D 610 developed the same issues after a few outings and I returned it for a full credit. I have no faith in either the D 600 or D 610 based on my experience. I now have a D 800E. So far so good.
    Joe Smith
     
  41. Since Nikon was correcting the issue already under warranty, basically what they have done is extended the term. I would imagine that most that are aware of the issue and actually have it have already taken care of their cameras anyway.
     
  42. I must agree with Shun because I am very weary when I have Nikon working on my camera. They fix one problem they could create another.
     
  43. "I believe we can agree that early on announcing a free shutter replacement for anyone experiencing the "oil spots" would have smoothed over the internet amplification effect in a jiffy and gone a long way in increasing customer satisfaction and confidence." You got that right, Nikon blew it by ignoring the thousands of complaints here on PN, flickr and dozens of other photo sites. This was no "internet amplification" thing, this was the real deal and Nikon ignored it, much to their chagrin. Like all manufacturers that ignore their customers, they will lose a lot of money trying to remedy the situation.
     
  44. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    First of all, it is not true at all that Nikon ignored early complaints about the D600 dust/oil issue. Their first service advisory was from a full year ago, February 20, 2013: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00bOOQ
    That was merely 4, 5 months since they started shipping the D600. You can argue that service advisory doesn't go far enough, but it clearly spelled out:
    As a first step, please follow the guidance from the D600 User's Manual (pages 301-305) related to the Clean Image Sensor function and manual cleaning using a blower bulb.
    If these measures do not remove all dust particles and you are still experiencing problems, then please consult your nearest Nikon service center. The technicians will examine the camera thoroughly, and service it as needed.​
    https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/18180
    Throughout 2013, we have had numerous posts on this forum about people sending D600 to Nikon for cleaning, and Nikon has been replacing shutters in quite a few cases; occasionally they have replaced the shutter more than once on the same cameras.
    The problem is that this is mostly a hardware issue. If it is a software/firmware issue, you fix the bug and ask people to upload the new firmware and that is it. When it comes to hardware, it takes time to develop a solution that indeed fixes the problem and then it requires manufacturing to accumulate a sufficient number of new spare parts for replacement, and then you need to line up enough technicians to perform the repair. It is not like you snap your fingers and all of a sudden, lots of spare parts and repair capability will appear out of thin air.
    Just imagine that early on Nikon asked people to send D600 back for cleaning and shutter replacement before all the logistics are lined up, and people had to wait weeks to a few months for parts and technician availability, the complaint would have been far worse.
    I really don't think Nikon has been handling the D600 dust/oil problem all that poorly. Whenever you have a hardware issue, there is no quick and painless solution; there are only a number of bad options to choose from, and you would definitely receive a lot of complaints.
    Another difficulty with this dust issue is that the problem is not well defined. Exactly how many D600 indeed have real problems, and how many cases are merely from people reading the internet and started worrying about a few dust spots at f22? How many D600 are now getting some totally unnecessary shutter replacement? I am afraid that we'll never know; even Nikon themselves will never know.
     
  45. Just a curious question...:)
    What could the D600 shutter do that the old D700's couldn't do that required the use of possibly the wrong lubricant and/or construction materials that made the un-defined sensor-speckling debris?
     
  46. What could the D600 shutter do that the old D700's couldn't do that required the use of possibly the wrong lubricant and/or construction materials that made the un-defined sensor-speckling debris?​
    Be cheap(er)?
    don't think Nikon has been handling the D600 dust/oil problem all that poorly​
    They never openly admitted to an oil splatter problem - and oil on the sensor is not something that the build-in sensor cleaning or a few puffs of air from a blower will eliminate. Not even the usual wet cleaning will get rid of it - a detergent-based cleaning solution needs to be used first, followed by the usual wet-cleaning to get rid of the residue left by the detergent. Of course, this can all be reduced to pure semantics - all what counts is that they eventually came around to servicing those cameras (even though paying for shipping was left to the owner for all I know).
    As to the Canon 6D be the only camera in that segment had Nikon stopped production - that's the price to pay for either rushing a not fully tested product to market or having poor quality control. They could have come up with a D400 in that period - and would have had that market segment all for themselves then :)
     
  47. The D600 shutter is quieter than the one used in Nikon's earlier FX cameras. I assume that that's why they developed it and what led to the problems as well. The Df and D610 also use this type of shutter but presumably the oil/dust/debris problem has been solved through a modification (at least Roger Cicalo of lensrentals.com says the D610 is free of this problem and I've not read of anyone reporting dust issues with the Df). The D700 makes a quite loud and distracting sound when a shot is taken and as a result I've been told to use a silencer/blimp (which I don't have as they can be lens and camera specific and not inexpensive). The D800 is a bit less loud than the D700 (as are the D3/D4 family cameras) in my subjective perception but the Df/D600/D610 are still quieter.
     
  48. Df/D600/D610 are still quieter​
    surprisingly enough, subjectively, the Df sounds quieter than the mirrorless Sony A7R and even the A7. The A7R lacks the electronic front shutter of the A7 and makes two loud noises while the A7 only makes one.
     
  49. "I really don't think Nikon has been handling the D600 dust/oil problem all that poorly." I would like to poll D600 owners and see what they think.
     
  50. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    "I really don't think Nikon has been handling the D600 dust/oil problem all that poorly." I would like to poll D600 owners and see what they think.​
    Of course, if you poll people who are affected, they are naturally unhappy.
    The fact of the matter is that Nikon had a service advisory early on, in February 2013. They have been accepting affected D600 for warranty cleaning and repair, including shutter replacement. In some cases they have even exchanged them with new D610. Now Nikon has extended the warranty period to essentially forever.
    It is unfortunate that some D600 had problems; that is never a good situation. There are stories that certain D600 have gone back several times for this same problem. Clearly, that is very frustrating for those D600 owners. However, Nikon has pretty much done what any responsible company would have done.
    Tim, I am afraid that your earlier statement:
    Nikon blew it by ignoring the thousands of complaints here on PN, flickr and dozens of other photo sites.​
    is simply untrue.
    They might not have done a perfect job repairing all affected D600 cameras the first time around, but Nikon never ignored those complaints.
     
  51. I guess that I am one of the lucky (or Normal) ones. I bought my D600 in November 2012 and I got a good one. The owner of the camera store (Allen Camera, Bucks County, PA) told me his D600 had already been back 2 times but he had sold about 10 D600 from a new batch sent to him with no one saying they are having any problem at all.
    To say I never had any dust of course would be silly as I use it outside. I have blown out the sensor area many times with a Grittos Rocket and it always cleaned it up perfectly.
    I am now a touch over 15,000 on my shutter count. Because of this notice I just inspected my sensor and yup a little dust, blew it off and looks like a beauty. I do see some real small spots in the upper right corner but very faint when looking at it through my lighted loupe so maybe another 5,000 clicks and I will give it a wet cleaning unless I spot more.
    I am extremely happy with my unit. A couple of months ago I did have a slight problem with it and took it to the shop so they could look at it, wound up being a bad SD card and contacts needed cleaning on lens, but it made some funny stuff happen that I had never seen before.
    Anyway, unless something happens I'm with Shun on this one, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I will be keeping a close eye on this as the warranty for this replacement advances to see if I do have a problem crop up in the future.
    My only concern and it is small is I am sure the D600's value for resale or trade in will take a big hit. I doubt that will mean too much to me as unless Nikon comes out with something so good I will use this until there isn't much left in it at all. I do not like the 36 mp on the D800 and the D4s is only a dream if I would hit a lottery or something so this old boy is happy with what I have.
    I do feel sorry for those that did get bad copies.
    philb
    benton, ky
     
  52. "is simply untrue." In your opinion maybe, not to a good portion of D600 owners it's not. I admire your loyalty to Nikon Shun but do you really believe that they would have issued this latest warranty upgrade if the courts were not seriously considering a class action lawsuit against them? Any way you cut it, this is going to cost Nikon beaucoup dollars, dollars they could have saved if they took care of the problem when it first started appearing.
     
  53. Good Copy v Bad Copy....WTH? I'm assuming Nikon are tech savvy enough to KNOW what's going on.
    So what's the difference 'inside' between a nightmare camera and a clean camera?
    Conspiracy theories aside, why doesn't Nikon say what happened? They've 'avoided' the class-action by a pseudo admission, but why not say?
     
  54. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I admire your loyalty to Nikon Shun but do you really believe that they would have issued this latest warranty upgrade if the courts were not seriously considering a class action lawsuit against them?​
    Tim, it is not a matter of loyalty; it is a matter of facts.
    Most likely Nikon's latest service advisory is influenced by the class-action law suits. But that is merely some lawyers feeling that this is an opening for them to make a lot of money for themselves. Essentially nobody died or got seriously injured as a result of the Nikon D600 dust/oil issue, so Nikon's liability is going to be limited. Potentially those lawyers can make a lot of fees, but any law suit would hardly benefit D600 owners that are in the class.
    I have been among the class in a few class-action law suits. I had to fill out a lot of forms and waved my other rights, and I got a couple of check for $10 or so each. It is a joke. In these days I no longer bother to fill out those forms to help those lawyers make lots of money for themselves.
    Any way you cut it, this is going to cost Nikon beaucoup dollars, dollars they could have saved if they took care of the problem when it first started appearing.​
    Tim, how should Nikon just "took care of the problem when it first started"? Could you spell out what Nikon should have done differently from what they did, which included:
    • Sent out a service advisory in February 2013, ask people to send their D600 back for cleaning and repair.
    • Clean, repair (changing the shutter assembly) and sometimes exchange affected D600.
    Nikon certainly has not been telling people to live with their D600 dust/oil problems. And Nikon's latest service advisory is merely a continuation of exactly that same repair process that Nikon has been doing all along; the only difference is that the D600 warranty for this particular issue is extended essentially forever.
    In these days news or even rumors go around the internet rapidly. No company is going to knowingly ship out a lot of defective products because they would certainly come back as warranty repairs, which are expensive for Nikon to handle.
    Whenever there is a class-action law suit or even the potential for one, you have to be a total idiot to admit any fault, which would only be further ammunition for the opposing lawyers. There is little doubt that is why Nikon's service advisory is very carefully drafted and when I asked them for clarification, they merely repeated what is already in the advisory and wouldn't give me any new information or clarification.
    P.S. I have posted my story about 3 out of 3 Nikon USA-refurbished lenses were still defective and were all returned. I am sure some members here are tired of my story, which is clearly embarrassing to Nikon USA: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00c0Fc
    Again, to me, it is the facts that matter and I post here to hopefully benefit our members, regardless of whether the story helps or embarrasses Nikon, to whom I have no loyalty.
     
  55. I can share my experience: D600 developed oil splatter, sent for service, shutter replaced.
    Problem recurred after 500 exposures (dozens of oil splatter marks visible at f/8 - f/11) - camera went back to Nikon.
    After second service, the problem remained. The camera is back at Nikon for trip #3.
    I know I am not supposed to say anything remotely uncomplimentary about Nikon on this forum, but boy have they blown it and not done right by their customers.
     
  56. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I know I am not supposed to say anything remotely uncomplimentary about Nikon on this forum, but boy have they blown it and not done right by their customers.​
    A Arun, I wonder who told you not to say anything uncomplimentary about Nikon on this forum, as a moderator here, I make my share of such comments myself. As long as it is factual, you are welcome to share your experience with us.

    Your very experience demonstrates that sometimes it is not that easy to fix this issue. Since each trip your D600 goes back for warranty repair, it costs Nikon a lot of money, it is very much in their own interest to fix it the first time around, but for whatever reason, it doesn't work out and it adds to the customer's frustration as well as the cost to Nikon.

    If I were you, if they cannot fix it after three times, it is time to request them to replace your D600 with a new one, possibly a D610 or ask for a full refund.

    P.S. for those who are interested, A Arun posted this thread about his bad D600 experience at the end of 2013, about 2 months ago: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00cGfb
    By then, Nikon had already introduced the D610. In other words, even after a new shutter was available for the D610, just replacing the shutter on the D600 doesn't always resolve the issue.
     
  57. A Arun, sorry to hear about your experience. I hope it reaches a satisfactory resolution on the third time. If the issue is not solved this time I would request a replacement with a D610 or your money back.
     
  58. I have just read the NikonEurope advisory (Article 55647) and NOWHERE in that does it say that Nikon will replace the shutter.
    All it says is that Nikon Service Centre will "examine it thoroughly, and service it as needed".
    I'd like a replacement shutter but at the moment there's no serious dust that would justify my returning to Nikon as they'd probably just say it's acceptable.
     
  59. Supplementary to my last post - I did a controlled test for dust and actually found quite a lot of small dust specks that wouldn't shift with the blower.
    So I've just packaged it up to send back to Nikon.
    Let's hope they will sort it.
     
  60. I have just read the NikonEurope advisory (Article 55647) and NOWHERE in that does it say that Nikon will replace the shutter.
    That's the old article from Nikon regarding the issue, from one year ago (published 22/02/2013). The new one (Article 59693 dated 26/02/2014) says "They will service your camera, including the inspection, cleaning, and replacement of the shutter and related parts." How they also say it's basically an extension of the 2013 response to include cameras not under warranty. "At this time, we are announcing that we will continue to provide this service free of charge, even after the product warranty has expired."
     
  61. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Supplementary to my last post - I did a controlled test for dust and actually found quite a lot of small dust specks that wouldn't shift with the blower.​
    I wonder what type of "controlled test" it was. If you shoot at f16, f22, you will likely find dust spots on a lot of cameras.
    Recently I have been using my D700 with my 60mm macro lens @ f16 to take pictures of the Df for my up-coming review. I need f16 for depth of field. It turns out that both of my D700 and D800E have plenty of dust spots. (I have no D600 or D610.) So I got a new bottle of wet cleaning fluid and have cleaned both of them lately.
    Unfortunately, my cleaning left a lot of little cleaning fluid droplets on my D800E's sensor. After they dry up, they become tiny spots on that sensor and I ended up with lots of spots on images captured with the D800E. A few days ago I had to wet clean it again and this time I was very careful not to leave any liquid droplets behind.
     
  62. bought a refurb d600 from B and H...came with spots on sensor, lots of them...cleaned sensor (easy)...sent to Nikon for what I hope is a shutter replacement. NO way I was not going to take advantage of this opportunity. This is my 2nd D600...purchased one from Cameta and returned it..tried again, as I couldn't resist the price and quality. Images are amazing...well worth the wait to get it back.
     
  63. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Today, 28 March 2014, Nikon Japan has gone one step further and announced that if necessary, they will replace any D600 that has this dust/oil issue that they cannot fix with a new D600 or "an equivalent model," which clearly will be a D610.
    http://www.nikon.com/news/2014/0328_01.htm
    With regard to the issue with which multiple granular black spots are reflected in images captured with the D600 digital SLR camera, Nikon sincerely apologizes for any concern and inconvenience suffered by D600 users, retailers, and all concerned.
    Because Nikon takes this matter very seriously, we will continue to offer users of the D600 a special service with which cameras are inspected, cleaned, and if necessary, shutter and related components are replaced free of charge, even after the product warranty has expired. However, if a number of multiple granular black spots are still noticeable in images captured with a D600 upon which the above service has been performed several times, Nikon will replace it with a new D600 or an equivalent model.
    Nikon will continue to work to improve the quality of its products and services even further.
    We hope that you will continue to choose Nikon products for your photographic needs.​
     
  64. Does this 'after warranty-expiration service' extend to second users?
    From Roy S's post above, it would seem so....unless B&H can issue Nikon warranties??
     
  65. Just a little update with my experiences. First, I included the body cap even though Nikon said no accessories after reading Thom's recommendations. Even though I carefully packed the camera body according to instructions (in a plastic bag, surrounded by packing material), I didn't feel that leaving the sensor exposed was a good idea. On the printed packing slip, I wrote that I had included the body cap. I also taped a small label with my last name to the body cap. So hopefully I will get it back. If I don't, I'd still rather lose a $10 cap, than potentially harm my camera. I didn't include any other accessories, removing the cards, battery, eye cup, etc. The following is the timeline so far:
    • 5/13 - I got a UPS shipping label from the service advisory link
    • 5/14 - dropped my D600 (with body cap only) at a UPS store
    • 5/19 - UPS shows Nikon received it
    • 5/20 - received an email from Nikon acknowledging the service and I approved the $0 estimate
    • 5/21 & 5/22 - checked the status daily in the morning & evening, showed as ESTIMATE ACCEPTED
    • 5/22 - in the evening, the status changed to SHOP
    • 5/23 - morning, status has changed to BILLING (detail still shows as $0, good will repair)
    I am hoping my camera will get here next week. From reading other posts, I know that Nikon is likely to ship it and not notify me or update the status to shipped. My only real concern is that they send it to my shipping address and not my billing address. The last time I sent a camera in for repairs (D70s), it was mailed without notifying me to my billing address, even though I specifically requested them not to. My billing address is rural, so the box with my camera was placed behind the post for my gate, in a pasture. I was lucky that I spotted it, because it rained that night. There are also livestock in the pasture, and they will usually mess with new objects. I will update this post when I receive my camera back.
    Since I was going to be without my camera for a couple of weeks, and because my lens had never been serviced, I decided to take advantage of the free shipping to Nikon. I set up a separate service order through Nikon's website to clean & check my Nikkor 28-200mm lens. I put it in a separate plastic bag, with front & rear lens caps attached, and put that in the same box as the D600. I included it's packing slip as well, which I wrote exactly what was in the box. It follows a similar timeline - at UPS on 5/14, received by Nikon on 5/19.
    • 5/20 - I got a separate email from Nikon with a service estimate for the lens ($78, including shipping). No free lens cleaning for me - maybe that's just something they do for the customers who physically bring in their equipment.
    • 5/21 - status showed as ESTIMATE ACCEPTED
    • 5/22 - my bank account was charged the amount of the estimate; status still shows as ESTIMATE ACCEPTED
    • 5/23 - status now shows as SHIPPED with a UPS tracking number. UPS tracking info says that the lens was shipped on 5/22 in the evening, with an ETA of 5/28. Detail does not show whether the lens is being shipped to my work or home address.
    Hopefully, everything will get back to me in better working order.
     
  66. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    CL Wood, it looks like you are in the US. Nikon USA repair ships UPS. If you are using a home or personal address for return shipment, you can set up a UPS My Choice account, and UPS will notify you with a UPS My Choice Delivery Alert e-mail about any package sent to you so that you won't be surprised by any unexpected shipment. (Ok, that system is not perfect, but usually you do get notification beforehand.)
    Not sure you can/want to do that with a work address when there are (many) other people at that address. But a UPS account will also help distinguish packages going to your home address and work address.
     

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