Nikon and the New EOS 1ds MKIII

Discussion in 'Nikon' started by richard_collins|1, Aug 22, 2007.

  1. First out, I'm not looking to ask a question with my title, I am looking for a
    discussion point. Canon have just announced the replacement to the EOS 1ds
    MKII, and here in the UK pre-orders are being taken for Oct07 delivery of the
    MKIII 21.1 Mp DSLR. My point.. being a Nikon user, will Nikon lose all
    credibilty with the serious amateurs and professional DSLR market unless they
    make an announcement about their future line up? My line of reasoning is that
    technology and innovation will always filter down eventually to a companys
    other products and this will happen with the EOS 1DS MKIII, and will benefit
    the entire product line up of Canon. Nikon, I really feel are becoming a niche
    camera manufacturer, and by not making an annoucement soon about their future
    line up are losing a lot of ground to Canon. Any views or thoughts on these
    points would be interesting.
     
  2. As others have pointed out in this forum, Nikon appears to have consciously decided there
    is more profit and market share in the amateur and prosumer market than in the high end.
    Far from losing ground, they just recently passed Canon as the top seller of DSLRs in Japan.

    Those of us with D2x systems may take issue with Nikon, but I'll bet Nikon's shareholders
    won't. It's a business decision, and as a business decision, it appears to be paying off.

    That said - for me personally, if the D2 line does not undergo substantial improvement
    soon, I will switch to a different brand (maybe Canon, maybe Hasselblad) on my next high
    end system in 3-5 years' time.
     
  3. See also:

    http://www.bythom.com/2007comments.htm
     
  4. I think the 1Ds III is more a thread to the medium size camera's like Hasselblad and
    Mamiya.
     
  5. How many pros and serious amateurs can afford cameras like this? They far surpass the relative costs of top of the line Canon and Nikon film cameras from previous generations, even when cost of living and other economic factors are considered.

    Canon's top of the line dSLRs are the niche cameras, not Nikons. They're priced like luxury film films were, the tops models from Hasselblad, Contax, Rollei, Leica, etc.

    I haven't seen yet how Canon's flagship dSLRs have produced a genuine trickle down effect within their entire lineup. Their best camera that's most suitable for sports and action photography costs considerably more than the D2Hs but, arguably, produces no better results for newspaper, web and most magazine uses.

    Their cheapest full frame camera still costs considerably more than the most comparable high megapixel, APS sensor Nikon dSLRs.

    As far as I'm concerned, the ideal price point for a high megapixel dSLR, regardless of sensor size, is $2,000. Anything above that makes film look pretty inviting again, especially medium format for low quantity, high quality prints.

    Nope, I'm not advocating going backward. Scanning is a PITA. A top notch scanner is expensive and it's time consuming to make high quality scans of the same quality as a good digital photo.

    When I see some of the most artistically interesting and uniquely creative photos being taken using sub-$1,000 P&S type digicams, I don't see that dSLRs costing more than $3,000 are relevant to the great majority of photographers. Canon's flagships are intended as much to appeal to the pros - a tiny fraction of the entire market - as to whet the appetites of the majority market, most of whom will buy only the entry level models.
     
  6. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    Forget about the 1DsIII, Nikon never really had any answer to the original 1Ds (2002), the subsequent 1DsII (2004) as well as the 1DII (2004) and 1DIIn (2006) for sports. A lot of pros have already switched to Canon in the past 5 years. Some examples that are familiar to photo.net are Marc Williams, Ellis Vener, etc. etc.

    Having said that, Nikon will have a new product announcement tomorrow, August 23. We'll see whether they'll finally have some answers to the 1DIII (announced back in March) and the recently announced 1DsIII. Some of the well known photographers that shoot Nikon are gathering in Tokyo now to attend the Nikon announcement, so most likely this will be something big.

    For example, "our own" Bjorn Rorslett is currently in Tokyo (check his web site).
     
  7. It is fairly clear that a marketing 'ploy' by Canon is in the works.
    (Hint: if it takes $5,000 for a body to 'allow' you to make decent images that sell, you need to keep in mind that the first $5,000 you make returns you to the break-even point. Canon makes the first $5,000 for your work.)



    I recently shot a local football team, group and individuals, with a Nikon D80. The parents [highly likely] could care less if the camera used was a 10 Mp or 21.1 Mp in file size. They do care about a clear image up to 8x10 in size.




    Canon is nice, so is the line of 'L' for lots-of-bucks lenses, but generally it is the guy or gal holding the camera that makes the image.
     
  8. OMG. Now that the new announcements from Canon are out, it's time for Nikonian Angst. A while back, when the new Nikon announcements had just been made, the Canon EOS site was all aflutter with worries about whether they should switch to Nikon and whether Nikon passing Canon in Japan was a sign that Canon was losing its edge.

    You know, this has happened before, and we shall go through the same issues every single time each of these very capable companies responds to the other. Let's just be thankful that these and other manufacturers have the competition to spur them on to greater and more developed cameras.
     
  9. http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/22/nikon-to-announce-d3-and-d300-dslrs-tomorrow/
     
  10. Actually until Canon decides to have a better user interface, I'm going to stick to the Nikons. I used a 1DSMKII and it was AWFUL. Also to the regular eye (like mine) differences are really not visible untill you start to enlarge the image massivly. Not to mention the pro level glass that you need to use with these.

    Think that I will stick to my D200 for now, it is more that enough for majority of the people and save my money for lenses or vacations!!! And I have a feeling that lots of other people may feel the sameway...clearly Nikon thinks so too!!!

    regards

    FGA
     
  11. Nikon is only a top-selling brand in Country X because they created a deserved reputation
    among professionals. It's their legacy of professional products that set up amateurs'
    expectations of quality. If Nikon doesn't compete more forcefully in the pro/high-end
    market, whatever manner in which they may lead sales categories now will be short-lived.
     
  12. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    I recently shot a local football team, group and individuals, with a Nikon D80. The parents [highly likely] could care less if the camera used was a 10 Mp or 21.1 Mp in file size. They do care about a clear image up to 8x10 in size.
    Gerald, as long as your targeted customers are the average parents, your D80 is just fine. The problem is that if you are shooting professional sports and there are 50 other professional sports photographers competiting to sell their images to news agencies, sports magazines, etc., your D80 or even a D2H or D2X is not going to fair as well.
    Again, I know Nikon will have a product announcement tomorrow. I have read rumors but I don't know for sure exactly what will be announced. Personally, I have seen various false starts before. Just in case if the announcement is a few Coolpix cameras, don't get too disappointed, but I really doubt that Nikon would fly people such as Bjorn Rorslett from Europe and the US into Tokyo to announce Coolpixs. :) I am leaving Dan Park's post since there are some (**unconfirmed**) details.
    We should have all the facts within 15 hours or so.
     
  13. Derek,

    I agree somewhat with your opinion, but it doesn't hold water even remotely in Japan, where Canon has dominated for many years. Nikon is now the top selling DSLR there.

    The 1Ds is for the super high-end, no question. Nikon has never challenged that arena. I'm surprised they haven't challenged the 1D more, but then again, even at the time the D2h came out many, many press photographers had already gone Canon, so that would be fighting uphill, too. The D2x, D200, and Nikon's trickle-down policy to their now very strong prosumer and consumer slr's has been very effective, IMO.


    allan
     
  14. Well, with a few of the patents recently made, and a few hints from Nikon, there is something big tomorrow. Sony filed a 12.1mp APS-C sized sensor patent really recently, which to me hints at the new D-300. Not much of an improvement to make it worth buying over a D200 in my opinion.

    But if the speculations about a new AF system, modular pieces for the D3, etc. pan out, we may have a winner. Remember, Nikon doesn't try to beat Canon out the gate. They sit and wait a bit, then make a better product after seeing how Canon screws up.

    There have been rumors of Japanese dealers already getting a promo poster for the D3.
     
  15. There is more to great image quality than megapixels. And while 21 sounds like a lot more than 10, in reality it isn't. You likely would not see any difference in a 12 x 18 print, and certainly not in smaller prints (unless you crop quite a bit).

    Personally, I would rather see a new 10mp camera with improved dynamic range and very low noise at higher ISOs.
     
  16. mjt

    mjt

    hi Richard ...

    here's my biggest complaint with Nikon: i want my FF back!!! most Nikon pros (including me) want a FF body. personally, i have a whole gaggle of 35mm Nikkors for which i can not realize their full potential. one other thing is the "lack" of lens breadth - compare the Nikkors with what Canon offers.

    anyway, based on Thom Hogan's predictions; plus if you visit Bjørn Rørslett's site: http://www.naturfotograf.com/index2.html (his latest announcement is, "Leaving today for Japan. Tokyo is hot in August." ... we just might see Nikon make an announcement during the Osaka Games 2007: http://osaka2007.iaaf.org/index.html

    granted Bjørn might be going for pleasure, or for some odd photo assignment, but it's a well-known fact he's a pro Nikon keeps their eyes upon. if his visit is neither for pleasure or for his own professional reasons, then it's most likely because Nikon flew him there for a special reason :)

    regards, michael
     
  17. mjt

    mjt

    Elliot ...

    if Nikon doesnt fill your needs, why not check in to the S5 Pro? as you are probably well aware of, it offers wide dynamic range (2 stops better than anything else in the league) and has great high ISO-low-noise performance (i own 2 that i use for weddings, ba[r/t] mitzvah's, portraits and other engagements - i also use the D2x and D200).

    yea, it does not fully resolve to 12MP like Fuji would like you to believe, but it does fall somewhere around 8MP. read Thom Hogan's review of the S5 that he recently posted. pay special attention to the section named, "Dynamic Range".

    regards, michael
     
  18. I certainly can see the increase in detail a 13x19 inches when I compare tripod shot D200 and Mamiya 7 (20 MP scan) images. There is quite a bit of a difference in sharpness. So I would expect the Canon to do quite well in such a test. Of course, if you screw up somehow or look at the print 10 feet away then it could be different.

    Frankly it doesn't matter how many megapixels the 1Ds Mk III has. It has more than enough. What would be of importance are the 1) sensor size (leading to fast short glass being available), 2) the implications of the large sensor size and image processing to noise, and 3) the other advanced features of the camera.
     
  19. I think Nikon will announce something along the lines of the rumour, but soon we'll see. In 35 mm, it's pretty hard to substantially improve the 1Ds Mark III without some radical new innovation. I'm much more interested in medium format options for my (distant) future shooting, as the prices are likely to go down further, usability to improve and for many subjects 35 mm jsut isn't the best format.
     
  20. By the time you have moved to 22mp, you are shooting, what is in my opinion, a studio camera. At that point, I would rather have the larger, but less MP Hassie back for the 500 series. All said, it would run you near the same price, and I think the larger sensor would prove to yield nicer results.

    The 12-16 MP range is more than enough for a 35mm or APS-C sized sensor. And it works for all but the most demanding of commercial jobs.
     
  21. In my humble opinion, NIkon is doomed. the new 1ds MKIII will ruin Nikon. Everybody who wants an SLR will rush to the stores to pay $8000 for this Canon body since it has more megapixels than anybody else's body. After all, it's megapixels that count the most, right?


    All of those great photos you took with your 8, 10 and 12 megapixel bodies will suddenly look lousy and cause viewers to wretch in disgust.

    As a favor to photo.net members I am promising to buy this lousy Nikon gear of my choice for 10 cents on the dollar so you can dump it while it still has some value. After the 23rd, my offer goes down to 5 cents on the dollar.
     
  22. I would think that a 21 megapixel body that sells for about $8000 is really targeting the medium format guys.


    Everyday, I see scores of ordinary camera fans shooting with D70's D100's and now the D40x. Sometimes a few D200's. These cameras have what it takes.
     
  23. ShunCheung

    ShunCheung Administrator

    As far as I know, Bjorn Rorslett went from Norway to Tokyo to attend the Nikon product announcement tomorrow, August 23rd. It is not merely a coincidence that he happens to be in Japan. And there are other people who have traveled from the US to Tokyo for the same purpose.

    When Canon announced the original 1Ds back in the fall of 2002, the price tag was $8000 and a lot of people speculated that the price tag for full-35mm-frame DSLRs would quickly drop. As it turns out, the initial price for the 1Ds Mark II in the fall of 2004 was also $8000, and it continues to the 1Ds Mark III now in 2007. Of course there is the cheaper 5D, but if you want full 35mm frame in a pro-quality DSRP body (the ruggedness, top-of-the-line AF, relatively fast frame rate, ....), you still have to pay a lot. If Nikon comes up with any equivalent camera, in 2007, 2008 or later, it won't be all that "affordable."

    I do agree that for most of us, 21MP is an overkill, and the difference betwewn 16 and 21MP is fairly limited. 21MP will also be very demanding on the lenses, especially at the edges of the frame for wide anlges.
     
  24. I really like competition and new camera and lens announcements are always exciting. I just looked at some 16 x 20 inch nature prints I had made up by a third party printer from TIFF files I created using Nikon Capture from NEF images taken on my D 200. These prints are really good looking and very sharp. I do not think I need many more megapixels than what my D 200 captures right now.

    Joe Smith
     
  25. It it only took an early announcement to make a successful launch, we'd all be using Microsoft Vista now ;-) Beta instead of VHS, etc.

    Point of fact, someone has to be first, and someone second. If, indeed, Nikon unveils new products tomorror (8/23), will it be too late. Tomorrow, will everyone have their D2x's on the market and a 1DsMkIII on the pipeline? Sorry, but that's a characteristic of dilitantes and collectors who have the money to jump on the latest fad. It's also why I have been able to purchase several hardly used cameras at such reasonable prices. Collectors, I love'em.
     
  26. MJ,

    I have considered the S5, but have never been convinced that the claims made by Fuji were totally legit.

    A photo.net friend emailed this link to me which has some interesting info about the S5:
    http://www.bythom.com/s5review.htm

    Not having used it myself, I cannot make any comments one way or the other.

    I think I will wait for Nikon (or Canon) to WOW me.
     
  27. One random and not-to-be-inflamatory comment - a lot of the wedding folks shooting 5D's sure seem to wear them out a lot. I'm not sure if the prosumer body is more like a D80 than a D200, but I keep hearing about the issues with the body.

    Hearsay only. Just making the point that Canon's efforts to roll out an alternative to the 1Ds for FF hasn't been a smashing success. I'm actually surprised at their lack of trickle-down strategy, to be honest.

    IF a D300 is announced, and the only difference is the sensor (basically), then I'll go grab a couple D200's. but if they add more cross-sensors, that alone would be a BIG deal...

    allan
     
  28. When Canon announced the original 1Ds back in the fall of 2002, the price tag was $8000 and a lot of people speculated that the price tag for full-35mm-frame DSLRs would quickly drop. As it turns out, the initial price for the 1Ds Mark II in the fall of 2004 was also $8000, and it continues t the 1Ds Mark III now in 2007.
    Canon had no reason to drop the price because they had no competition. Don't want to pay $8000? What's your other choice? I bought a D70+18-70 in May 2004 for $1300. Today I can get a D40+18-55 for $515. Why? Because of competition from Canon and others.
     
  29. Umm....Walt.....

    D40 and D70 are totally different beasts. The D70 has a lot of features that the D40 doesn't. Not to mention target segment was different. Plus the D70 had competition in the original Digital Rebel.

    And the pricing for a body aimed at the pro market will be a ton different than for the consumer. A better way to look at this may be the pricing of different generations of Leaf MF backs. Or the D1 to D2. Or for the D300, the 30D to 40D.
     
  30. Yes the D40 and D70 are different but look at your 30D to 40D comparison. You get more for the same price which is in effect a lower price. This wouldn't happen without competition. Intel used to be pretty slow with new chips until AMD had better chips a few years ago. Same thing plus the prices drop.
     
  31. True, but once again, they are different markets. The D70 was aimed at the market that the D80 hits now. Really, that is what I should have stated to begin with. When the D70 came out, the total beginner/entry SLR user was expected to buy film. DSLRs were not aimed at a total beginner like the D40 is.

    As for computer chips, look at the entry prices on the high-end chips. They are still a thousand+ dollars. Chipsets at introduction are still coming out at similar prices to what the previous generation came out at. Also, processors/chipsets have a much faster market speed than cameras. They go through their cycle much much quicker.
     
  32. D70 was aimed at the Digital Rebel market. Nikon was focusing on the pro market. Nikon took the lead in the beginning of the digital wars with their D1 series of cameras. It was concentrating on the pro market which caused Nikon to fall back. Nikon didn't have a entry level body until the D50 which lagged behind the Canon in features. If people haven't noticed, features creep upward, not downward.

    High end cameras like the Hasselblad don't even offer auto focus.

    Compact cams have been getting features like GPS, WiFi, Live view, vibration reduction for years, digital crop, in camera editing, remote shooting, super zooms. The next feature that DSLRs will get is probably video. I suspect that face detection is also another possibility.

    Also anyone else notice that Ellis is also in Tokyo this week?
     
  33. I feel the D70 was aimed at the 20D (at the time), with no competition to the Rebel until the D50 came out. And if you look at how metering systems have been moved down from model to model, there is trickle-down. Also, see how the D2x weather sealing goes into the D200, and how similar the D80 is to the D200. And then how they are now using the same sensor from the entry-level D40x to the D200.

    anyway. just a quick thought. Technology seems to trickle-down, but features are made available as you go up.

    allan
     
  34. Usually features show up first on the top end camera of a manufacturer's line. Hasselblad is a different company than Nikon or Canon, these can't be compared.
     
  35. "When Canon announced the original 1Ds back in the fall of 2002, the price tag was $8000 and a lot of people speculated that the price tag for full-35mm-frame DSLRs would quickly drop. As it turns out, the initial price for the 1Ds Mark II in the fall of 2004 was also $8000, and it continues to the 1Ds Mark III now in 2007."

    just to be a gadfly, $8000 in 2007 is equivalent to about $7250 in 2004 and $6900 in 2002 (according to BLS-CPI). So prices have dropped some, or to be precise Canon hasn't found it necessary to increase prices to match inflation and a falling dollar.
     
  36. Actually, we only have to wait another 6 hours or so, Tokyo is ahead in days but behind in
    hours.
     
  37. "Usually features show up first on the top end camera of a manufacturer's line."

    The 10mp sensor and the sensor cleaning mechanism showed up the Rebel Xti first. Consumer cameras have a shorter life cycle than pro cams. So you will often see features on consumer cameras quicker than on pro cameras.

    The D70 was priced closer to the Rebel, the D100 was priced closer to the EOS 10D/20D.
     
  38. The Nikon Finland site is down and all the pages are being updated now... http://www.europe-nikon.com/home/fi_FI/homepage/broad/catalog.html My Finish is a little rusty...
    00MKIZ-38108984.jpg
     
  39. Sam,

    We're veering away here, but remember how old the D100 was at the time the D70 came out. I think the D70 was kind of in the middle. Perhaps purposely, since the D100 was getting so long int he tooth.

    allan
     
  40. Not to mention, if you screw up a feature on a consumer camera, you won't get to bad of a backlash. It proves to be a good testing ground for certain technologies. I am sure the techs have put things into the D80/D40 that aren't in others, that might trickle up a bit.

    That said, the Pro bodies do need the features that make them Pro.
     
  41. NikonUSA seems to be working. But I can't pull any product pages from the UK site.
     
  42. Well, let's see. Body control aperture, multiple AF points, first really fast AF, 8 fps, extensive custom settings, first shown on F5. Then after a while some of these trickled down to F100.

    D2X shows up with 11 AF points, 12 MP, etc. first high res Nikon. Then about 1 year after similar features show up on D200, and yet later in D80 and finally in the D40X. Sure seems that most of the time the high end models get the features first with Nikon.

    Canon had a 16 MP sensor in their top of the line camera long before any consumer 10 MP model. The sensor cleaning thing is a fad. It doesn't really help.
     
  43. When Nikon anounced Nikon d2x canon did one upmanship and brought out 1Dx Mk II. Maybe Nikon will do the same this time around although I can't really see how Nikon will manage that considering spec of 1Ds MKIII. One thing that's going for nikon is that they have far more experience with smaller pixel pitch with D2x.

    With sony about to announce their new pro dslr also, digital slr market is becoming very exciting.
     
  44. There is no competition in the pro DSLR area. IMO.
     
  45. Allen,
    Canon may be a leader in SLRs, but they are only a 'co-leader,' along with Nikon. And,
    Canon's prominence at "the top" is only relatively recent. A camera-maker's professional
    reputation is not born in five, ten, or even twenty years. Nikon's status goes back 50+ years.
    For those with a longer frame of reference, it was Nikon (and Leica, Rollei, and Hasselblad)
    that were THE chosen cameras of professionals. Whether or not Canon has taken spot 1a or
    1b with the EOS system is of no consequence. Nikon isn't #1 in Japan now without having
    first established their legacy much earlier.
     
  46. "Well, let's see. Body control aperture, multiple AF points, first really fast AF, 8 fps, extensive custom settings, first shown on F5. Then after a while some of these trickled down to F100."

    D metering, faster AF, computer capable back, wireless flash system were all introduced on the Nikon N90/N90s.

    i-TTL, CLS, 8FPS, LBCAST sensor, and 11 auto focus points were introduced on the Nikon D2H.
     
  47. Derk (just kidding - I don't mind when people get my name wrong),

    I truly question whether Nikon's "legacy" is all that relevant since they captured Japan's DSLR market through their consumer models. I just don't think that buyers in that market are looking much past _2_ years ago. Forget 20 or 50.

    Also, if people are buying Nikons in Japan because of their reputation as professional-quality equipment...again, it's the consumer models that are pulling Nikon up, and Canon still dominates the professional market. There is a point to those ads about all the white lenses at sporting events, and it's why, I think, Nikon hasn't developed the high-speed camera line much.

    allan
     
  48. Derek Stanton, Aug 22, 2007; 07:10 p.m.

    Allen, Canon may be a leader in SLRs, but they are only a 'co-leader,' along with Nikon. And, Canon's prominence at "the top" is only relatively recent. A camera-maker's professional reputation is not born in five, ten, or even twenty years. Nikon's status goes back 50+ years.


    With all respect. this story reminds me of GM, Ford and Chrysler. There were the top car selling automakers in the past. What's happening now in the last 10-20 years? Ford loses 35M dollars a day.
     
  49. Well... D3. The question is answered :)

    Forget the MP myth. High MP count is nice, right. But It can be done anytime by anyone. High sensibility, good price and good features... that's the challenge.

    I guess Nikon will sell the D3 like water since it challenges the 1D, 1Ds and 5D all in the same product with a nice price (actually it challenges the 1D and 5D more).

    It will be a great challenge for both companies and it all just benefits us users.

    Cheers.
     
  50. wow this is a dead topic huh?
     

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