Night Photography

<p>Good Evening,<br>

I have the Canon 30D and have been attempting to do some city skyline type shots at night and am running into problems. I am shooting with the EF70-200 F2.8L IS USM lens.<br>

The problem that I am experiencing is that when I look at the photo after its been taken it looks fine on the camera LCD but not so good when I look at it after downloading it to the computer. The results I am getting normally are with the building lights and window lights being way out of focus and not sharp at all. I have the camera mounted on a strong tripod, focusing on the buidings in the distance. I normally shoot with an ISO setting of about 100 or 125 with the shutter open about 1 to 2 seconds and sometimes longer. As for the F stop its about a 3.5 or 4.5. I have tried various things but it just seems that I cannot get the sharpness that I know this camera and lens is capable of.<br>

Any recommendations or assistance is greatly appreciated.<br>

Thanks,<br>

Gordon</p><div></div>

<p>Nice Photo. You could try setting up your camera and focussing while the Sun is still up. Then set the lens to manual focus, so it won't change, and wait for dark.</p>

<p>It's possible that the fuzziness in the photo is due to atmospheric distortion, caused by air above the still-warm pavement mixing with cooler night air. The marine layer also adds to the distortion.</p>

<p>I think you've got the exposure dialed in nicely, for what it's worth. Auto focus in dim light is a challenge for the camera. I would suggest to bring along a small flashlight and simply set your focus manually. Likely just setting it on infinity would be best for a shot like your posting. Experiment in daylight to see how good your focus is: set right on the infinity mark, or test focus on distant objects and note the position. Also, you could set your f-stop a little higher, increasing your depth of focus, improving overall sharpness, and for insurance on your focus. Of course adjust your shutter speed to compensate.</p>

<p>When I was a teenager I did a fair bit of nightscapes, and stuff like time exposures of rides at the fair, streams of street traffic, etc. It's a lot of fun and you can get some nice results. Stick with it!</p>

<p>Do you use a cable release or pushing the button on the camera? That will cause a vibration. I always use a cable release.<br>

Is your lens mounted or the camera? Since the lens is heavier (and long) than the camera, it should be mounted, not the camera. The tripod should be sturdy, and center column minimally extended.<br>

Your IS should be off.<br>

<img src="http://www.robertbody.com/people08/images/2008-11-24-tempe-buildings-55495.jpg" alt="" width="750" height="500" /></p>

<p>I generally try for a smaller aperture, 5.6 or 8 with a longer shutter speed which I trip by using the 10 sec time delay. Yes, I agree night focussing is difficult which is one of the reasons I use the smaller F stops, more depth of field. I take several shots if possible, resetting manual focus between each shot, usually at least one is spot on, I delete the rest. There is a problem with these smaller apertures in that strong point sources of light can get exaggerated star patterns, the smaller the aperture the more exaggerated the pattern. You can clone these out in post processing if there are only a few. I hate using tripods but this is the one occasion where they are needed. I generally use lower ISOs, 100, as shutter speed is no longer a concern, only aperture is.<br>

I have a XTi, the little viewfinder makes this work exacting but it can be done. In short, ISO100, time delay, long shutter speed, small apertures, manual focussing, take several shots redoing focus between each one.</p>

<p>Thank you for all the responses so far. I always mount the lens to the tripod. I do that because like previously mentioned the lens is much heavier than the camera itself.<br>

I was going back through the manual for the lens and it sounds like it wants me to take the image stabalizer to the off position then prior to adjusting the setting for the focusing distance range that I should move the focus ring to the infinity icon on the lens and then set the focus distance range switch to the 2.5mm - infinity side.<br>

Does that sound right? Does anyone have this lens that is familiar with this?<br>

Again, Thank you to every one that has already responded and who may respond yet. I appreciate the information and I am going to continue practicing with this. I take good day shots but want to add night shots and city skylines to my portfolio ( I will only do that once I figure the night photography stuff out first though :)<br>

Thanks again.<br>

Gordon</p>

<p>You are using the wrong lens. Try the 50mm 1.8 II. It's about $80. Any time you go from near blowout to zero black in no distance at all you are going to see the diffraction, that is always there. As a general rule, the fewer pieces of glass, the higher the image quality.</p>

<p>Shoot 2-3 notches UNDERexposed. Just try it. Don't ask why. You can boost anything, in post, but stuff that's maxing out is very hard to deal with. Use your timer for the exposure. Time doesn't matter, just as long as your hand is not causing shake. Turn your IS off.</p>

<p>Select an evening when it's cold and NOT humid for the shoot - preferably just after a windy front blows all the car exhaust out. Water and/or particles in the air act as prisms...</p>

<p>Set your lens wide open. You don't need depth of field, as what you're shooting is far away. Stop the lens down slowly, watching the results. It's handy to have a laptop in the car to see your shots. Do not use high ISO or in-cam noise removal (long exposure).</p>

<p>ABOVE ALL, don't get knocked in your head and your fancy camera taken. Be aware of what's around you - take a friend on the shoot.

<p>With USM lenses the "infinity focus position" is not at the end of the rotation, and it might be in the middle of the inifinity sign, or maybe not.<br>

1) Focus on a light source or light area where the camera has an easy time focusing, hear the beep, then turn to Manual Focus<br>

2) Use remote-cable which you hold in your hand, there is a cord leading to the camera, and once you click it, hold it and don't stretch the cable, so that there is no vibration going to the camera.<br>

3) Your tripod should be sufficiently sturdy and if you extend the center column, there is a greater chance of vibration during photo takin.</p>

Gordon, You should never have IS on when the camera is mounted on a tripod. This is Canon's recommendation for all IS lenses and I have confirmed that 24-105F4 IS, 70-200F4 IS, and 100-400 IS lenses will blur images when the camera is on a tripod. Especially on a 2 second exposure.

 

 

The focus limiter switch on your lens will not have any effect on your picture. The focus limiter switch is mainly used if there is something close to the lens. In that case the camera may move back and forth between infinity and close focus. You don't have anything close to the camera to caus a problem.

 

 

De Lanzer, night photography is very demanding on lenses, especially if lights are present in the image (as in Gordon's image). While the 50mm 1.8 lens is good, it is by no means the right lens for this application. It has significant vignetting at F1.8 and very soft in the corners. On my 5D the 50mm 1.8 will strongly distort city lights at the corners of the picture. In comparison the 70-200mm in all tests I have looked at out performs the 50mm. It is widely considered one of the best lenses Canon sells. I have a the very similar 70-200F4 IS lens and it has performed very well in low light without any visible distortion or vignetting.

 

 

In your post it appears you are confusing diffraction with exposure. Diffraction will simply not occur on any lens between wide open and F8 and diffraction is not effected by exposure as long as the apature is not stopped down too far. Any over exposed light can blur due to light spilling onto other pixels and bouncing between lens elements. The same thing will also happen on film. While underexposing the image will reduce this if may not be practical in all situations since it could push pixels in dark area into full black. No amount of post processing will recover information in black pixels.

<p><em>In comparison the 70-200mm in all tests I have looked at out performs the 50mm. It is widely considered one of the best lenses Canon sells.</em></p>

<p>It is. I own both, and my keeper rate is much higher with the 70-200--The fifty's a fine lens, but the corner detail and vignetting can be atrocious sometimes.</p>

<p>Gordon: Silly question... You weren't actually _on_ the water when this was taken, were you? I can't tell if you're in a boat, or not (but it sort of looks like you might be).</p>

<p>The gentle rocking motion of the water would definitely through a wrench into your sharp night photography plans. :)</p>

<p>-Paul B. Davis</p>

<p> </p>

<p>"Shoot 2-3 notches UNDERexposed. Just try it." - garbage. Try increasing your exposure by 3 stops in your RAW converter and look at the noise in the shadows, regardless of ISO - it will be bad. Nothing wrong with the 70-200mm for these shots, just make sure IS is off or you will get some blur. The shot you posted is very underexposed in my opinion. With such high contrast scenes I would have taken bracketed exposures and merged them in PS. I always have my aperture between F8 to F11 for these types of shots, ISO 100 or 200, remote shutter release or timer.</p>

I've actually done this... Like I said, shoot underexposed, or deal with the blowouts. There's no question of which is easier, or will make the best image.</p><div></div>

<p>Or... how about this one...</p><div></div>

<p>Or... maybe this one?</p><div></div>

.<div></div>

<p>De Lenzer, I'm not sure what your point is. Your night time cityscapes are fine but they don't stand out, and I'd prefer them slightly more exposed. If you're selling a 20x30" print for $40, I'm not surprised your images sell well as that is cosiderably less than what most people charge.

<p>One other issue which I don't think anyone mentioned is the vibration of the mirror slap. Usually this is more an issue at 1/10 a second but using mirror lock up, if available on your camera may help as well.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Shoot 2-3 notches UNDERexposed. Just try it. Don't ask why.</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I also think this is poor advice. Shooting dark and then recovering it is a recipe for noise. OTOH if you happen to like jet black skies and don't want to restore some of the lost light it works after a fashion. Not what I'd want though.</p>

<p>Gordon,</p>

<p>here you hear another argument about how to expose... seems like you know how and your question was about sharpness. I do not quite get it. I am sure none of the images are exposed to show a centered histogram. I think you got good advice: close down the lens a bit, IS off, mirror lockup and cable release. Disregard the talk about under-over exposure....</p>

<p>i would like to chime in on de lenzer's advice: i think that he may be right. Matrix or whatever metering canon calls it ( i shoot nikon, sorry) will blow out point highlights like lit windows on a building and strong lights. Matrix metering is not a genius, solve-all algorithm. It will allow highlights to blow and thus de lenzer's advice makes sense to me. I would bracket this and try it out, but i expect he's right on the money. Also, de Lenzer, did you shoot a custom white balance or set your own temperature? Improperly doing this seems to make the red channel blow out so that could save you later, and always the red. Just wondering what your system was for that.<br>

pretty good advice about a partner on a shoot as well.</p>

<p>also, if you are familiar with the zone system, this makes sense. And further, since the average of the scene will be below 18% middle gray, this also makes sense in this regard. why don't you spend a few frames trying out this advice and see what results it produces...</p>

<p >I certainly don’t know what I’m talking about, but Bryan Peterson seems to. He’d suggest an f stop between f/8 and f/11 for this type of shot, and would recommend that you take your meter reading from the sky instead of from the buildings. I’ve yet to try out his advice, but if it ever stops snowing here I might get the chance…</p>

<p>Good Morning,<br>

Thank you to everyone for respsonding. I appreciate everyones advice on this. The picture is of the Seattle Washington skyline and was taken on a concrete landing near West Seattle.<br>

The night the picture was taken it was cold and the water movement was caused by a large container freight ship that passed by closer to the downtown Seattle side. I think the advice given here will give me a very good starting point for the improvement that I am looking for and I will definitely see how it improves the image quality. <br>

I have started a journal of my photography and the various settings for my better photos so when I experiment with the information provided above I will see what works best. Sorry to have caused the arguments that seem to have developed from above.<br>

Thanks,<br>

Gordon</p>

<p>Hoping not to get shot for saying this, but for night landscapes, you want to do the following: 1) set ISO to base value (100-200); 2) set aperture to f/8-11 (any lower and you'll get diffraction on a DSLR; 3) adjust shutter speed accordingly, starting at fairly slow speed (like 1 sec.); 4) use tripod and cable release (if possible); 5) turn of IS or VR; 6) use manual focus set to Infinity; 7) meter for the sky; 8) turn high ISO NR off; 9) view result in LCD; 10) repeat until desired effect is obtained.</p>

<p>You could always go back to a manual film camera where you can set f-22 and hyperfocal.That is one of the things I miss most about pre A/F and digital cameras.Now the exact infinity mark is no longer used to corespond to the aperture size.I try to never shoot larger than f-16 when I have an infinity focus that will give all the DOF your lens can give.Of course an 8x10 at f-64 still has top honors for DOF.</p>